rugbyunion
Latest News:
New Page 1

Whatever your views on Saracens, whether a Sarries fan or not, leave them here.

To leave a message on this board you must register. To register click HERE, it takes only a minute.
Non-rugby posts are welcome, but please prefix your subject header with "OT" or "Off Topic".


Thought for the Day:
NEWCASTLE HERE WE COME!!!!!!

Latest: SARACENS 32:16 MUNSTER
Next: WASPS v SARACENS
Sat 27th April, 16.30 Ricoh,
Audio: Click the link below. If it ain' there, it ain't on!
Upcoming TV: Wasps v Saracens Sat 27th April 16.15 BT Sport2

BBC Online Rugby Union Commentaries

The Fish | Rugby Union News | Fez Boys | Saracens Fixtures | The SSA | Rugby on TV


Discipline
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 18:37
If we think we had problems last night, look what Bath were down to in their game today!

 
Re: Discipline
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
06 January, 2019 09:39
I understand that that was a goalline stand.

The previous week, JP Doyle allowed multiple offsides without sanction. "Can a hand be offside?", he was asked. The offside line had become the goal line, while the defender's feet were OK, his hand was on the ground in the field of play.
The leprechaun awarded a scrum to the defence, rather than penalise the defender.

You can see why Blackadder's charges decided to try it on!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Discipline
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
06 January, 2019 14:24
Quote:
derbyshire fan
If we think we had problems last night, look what Bath were down to in their game today!

I've just read that Bath had three yellows cards and one red card when the game ended so only eleven players on the pitch!!! Ref was Tempest....say no more. Another one on the sub-standard ref list. TBF I haven't seen the game so can't comment on whether or not all those cards were justified, but what is clear is that for there to have been that many the ref has clearly completely lost control of the game.

Not a good weekend for refs this weekend it would seem. Pat Lam is openly calling out mistakes made by Craig Maxwell-Keys in Bristol's game against Chiefs. He's even citing the specific laws where he says CMK got it wrong; the laws surrounding Exeter's tactics at the line-out and subsequent maul. Interestingly Lam even says that Exeter did the same in their game against Saracens!!! Be interesting to see what the fall-out is from the complaints.

 
Re: Discipline
Rupes (IP Logged)
06 January, 2019 21:54
GazzaFez - why do you assume Tempest had lost control? As I understand it, more Bath under extreme pressure which resulted in two yellows for props plus a blatant offside in a scoring situation. Hence the 3 yellows which even some on the Bath board think were fair enough! The other way to look at it is that the referee was brave enough to keep carding players, if they needed carding. And if you look at it that way, Ian Tempest was correct.

Not sure why we assume the ref was wrong 24/7.

Btw - fair play to Bath for not pulling a scheme to go to uncontested scrums, would have been very easy and then ignore the vitriol which would no doubt have followed.

 
Re: Discipline
King Zak (IP Logged)
06 January, 2019 22:27
Quote:
Rupes
GazzaFez - why do you assume Tempest had lost control? As I understand it, more Bath under extreme pressure which resulted in two yellows for props plus a blatant offside in a scoring situation. Hence the 3 yellows which even some on the Bath board think were fair enough! The other way to look at it is that the referee was brave enough to keep carding players, if they needed carding. And if you look at it that way, Ian Tempest was correct.
Not sure why we assume the ref was wrong 24/7

Exactly. It’s up to players to do what the ref says, not the other way round!



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Discipline
TOKS (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 14:10
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
derbyshire fan
If we think we had problems last night, look what Bath were down to in their game today!

I've just read that Bath had three yellows cards and one red card when the game ended so only eleven players on the pitch!!! Ref was Tempest....say no more. Another one on the sub-standard ref list. TBF I haven't seen the game so can't comment on whether or not all those cards were justified, but what is clear is that for there to have been that many the ref has clearly completely lost control of the game.

Not a good weekend for refs this weekend it would seem. Pat Lam is openly calling out mistakes made by Craig Maxwell-Keys in Bristol's game against Chiefs. He's even citing the specific laws where he says CMK got it wrong; the laws surrounding Exeter's tactics at the line-out and subsequent maul. Interestingly Lam even says that Exeter did the same in their game against Saracens!!! Be interesting to see what the fall-out is from the complaints.

DORs give their feedback on an confidential basis after the match. Referees are also assessed each week. Comments, constructive or critical, are supposed to be confined to this. However, human nature dictates that if a DOR feels a referee has had a shocker, it's very hard to contain yourself in an interview. Small manages that by saying as little as humanly possible, Diamond and Lam are a little more "expressive".

Rugby is a very difficult sport to referee but it does seem that we are having a disproportionate amount of poor performances at the moment. It's hard for DORs to keep their feelings under wraps. But I guess there's no grey area here - criticism of referees in post-match interviews does reduce respect for the officials (unlike message-boards where it's absolutely fine!).

 
Re: Discipline
Sarriebone (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 15:04
Quote:
TOKS
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
derbyshire fan
If we think we had problems last night, look what Bath were down to in their game today!

I've just read that Bath had three yellows cards and one red card when the game ended so only eleven players on the pitch!!! Ref was Tempest....say no more. Another one on the sub-standard ref list. TBF I haven't seen the game so can't comment on whether or not all those cards were justified, but what is clear is that for there to have been that many the ref has clearly completely lost control of the game.

Not a good weekend for refs this weekend it would seem. Pat Lam is openly calling out mistakes made by Craig Maxwell-Keys in Bristol's game against Chiefs. He's even citing the specific laws where he says CMK got it wrong; the laws surrounding Exeter's tactics at the line-out and subsequent maul. Interestingly Lam even says that Exeter did the same in their game against Saracens!!! Be interesting to see what the fall-out is from the complaints.

DORs give their feedback on an confidential basis after the match. Referees are also assessed each week. Comments, constructive or critical, are supposed to be confined to this. However, human nature dictates that if a DOR feels a referee has had a shocker, it's very hard to contain yourself in an interview. Small manages that by saying as little as humanly possible, Diamond and Lam are a little more "expressive".

Rugby is a very difficult sport to referee but it does seem that we are having a disproportionate amount of poor performances at the moment. It's hard for DORs to keep their feelings under wraps. But I guess there's no grey area here - criticism of referees in post-match interviews does reduce respect for the officials (unlike message-boards where it's absolutely fine!).


The unwavering respect for the ref is both one of the greatest things about rugby and one of the worst.
I love the fact the ref is listened to and respected. But on the other hand it's frustrating that a ref's decisions can't be questioned. Take Northampton V Wasps yesterday, Northampton's 9 slides over their own goal line there by grounding the ball so play should have stopped however it didn't and following some odd play Wasps end up scoring. The ref awarded the try without checking it, but the ball was dead so should have been no try, scrum to Wasps. Now Wasps may well have scored off the back said scrum, but there are no guarantees so that decision could potentially have cost Northampton a losing Bonus.

I don't think players should be allowed to question the ref however I have seen suggestions of giving each team one referral to the TMO, if you are proved correct you keep your referral, if you're not then you lose it for the rest of the match.

Obviously a ref can't be expected to pick up everything, and neither can the ARs and the less said about the TMO the better at times.

 
Re: Discipline
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 15:13
Quote:
Rupes
GazzaFez - why do you assume Tempest had lost control? As I understand it, more Bath under extreme pressure which resulted in two yellows for props plus a blatant offside in a scoring situation. Hence the 3 yellows which even some on the Bath board think were fair enough! The other way to look at it is that the referee was brave enough to keep carding players, if they needed carding. And if you look at it that way, Ian Tempest was correct.
Not sure why we assume the ref was wrong 24/7.

Btw - fair play to Bath for not pulling a scheme to go to uncontested scrums, would have been very easy and then ignore the vitriol which would no doubt have followed.

To play devil's advocate... if there were two yellow cards for offside in a scoring situation why wouldn't it be a penalty try? We would be talking about a very different situation had Worcester not scored but Bath finish with 11 men for constant infringement on their goal line.

 
Re: Discipline
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 16:19
Quote:
Sarriebone
Take Northampton V Wasps yesterday, Northampton's 9 slides over their own goal line there by grounding the ball so play should have stopped however it didn't and following some odd play Wasps end up scoring. The ref awarded the try without checking it, but the ball was dead so should have been no try, scrum to Wasps. Now Wasps may well have scored off the back said scrum, but there are no guarantees so that decision could potentially have cost Northampton a losing Bonus.

I saw this too on the highlights program. Quite possibly the biggest howler by Luke Pearce on a weekend of howlers, simply because it was so blatant. It was glaringly obvious that Cobus Reinach grounded the ball in his own goal area (whether he intended to or not is irrelevant). No try, simply as that. Pearce didn't check and nor did the TMO spreak up despite it being replayed at least twice. Pure incompetence I'm afraid which at a minimum cost Saints an LBP.


Quote:
Sarriebone
I don't think players should be allowed to question the ref however I have seen suggestions of giving each team one referral to the TMO, if you are proved correct you keep your referral, if you're not then you lose it for the rest of the match.

I've not seen this suggested before. So a system like the line call challenges available to tennis players? I can see some merit in it and it would certainly focus the attention of refs handing out dodgy decisions. However I think they would fight it tooth and nail saying it would undermine their authority and waste time during the game. The latter argument is null and void of course as they do enough of this themselves by call the TMO when it's not necessary.

 
Re: Discipline
Sarriebone (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 16:47
Quote:
GazzaFez

I've not seen this suggested before. So a system like the line call challenges available to tennis players? I can see some merit in it and it would certainly focus the attention of refs handing out dodgy decisions. However I think they would fight it tooth and nail saying it would undermine their authority and waste time during the game. The latter argument is null and void of course as they do enough of this themselves by call the TMO when it's not necessary.

But it could be useful in certain situations. In the Quins game last week, the ref said a few times "you're asking me about something I didn't see" or words to that effect, it may have been in relation to Ward spitting, not sure. But that could have been one use for a team's referral without undermining the ref's authority.


I certainly think the idea has merit but it would have to be very limited to avoid it being abused by teams. And it would have to go hand in hand with a review of how the TMO intervenes in matches.

 
Re: Discipline
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 17:03
Quote:
Sarriebone

But it could be useful in certain situations. In the Quins game last week, the ref said a few times "you're asking me about something I didn't see" or words to that effect, it may have been in relation to Ward spitting, not sure. But that could have been one use for a team's referral without undermining the ref's authority.

I certainly think the idea has merit but it would have to be very limited to avoid it being abused by teams. And it would have to go hand in hand with a review of how the TMO intervenes in matches.

Yes I agree it's an interesting idea and certainly worthy of investigating further. I think that one per team per match would be the max though.

 
Re: Discipline
Rupes (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 18:06
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Quote:
Rupes
GazzaFez - why do you assume Tempest had lost control? As I understand it, more Bath under extreme pressure which resulted in two yellows for props plus a blatant offside in a scoring situation. Hence the 3 yellows which even some on the Bath board think were fair enough! The other way to look at it is that the referee was brave enough to keep carding players, if they needed carding. And if you look at it that way, Ian Tempest was correct.
Not sure why we assume the ref was wrong 24/7.

Btw - fair play to Bath for not pulling a scheme to go to uncontested scrums, would have been very easy and then ignore the vitriol which would no doubt have followed.

To play devil's advocate... if there were two yellow cards for offside in a scoring situation why wouldn't it be a penalty try? We would be talking about a very different situation had Worcester not scored but Bath finish with 11 men for constant infringement on their goal line.

Essex-Sarrie; in your scenario, absolutely penalty try. But only one of these was for the deliberate offside, the other two were for scrum offences as I understand it. Haven't seen the footage, so cannot comment on the possibility or otherwise of the penalty try being given.

 
Re: Discipline
cwrich (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 09:06
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
Sarriebone

But it could be useful in certain situations. In the Quins game last week, the ref said a few times "you're asking me about something I didn't see" or words to that effect, it may have been in relation to Ward spitting, not sure. But that could have been one use for a team's referral without undermining the ref's authority.

I certainly think the idea has merit but it would have to be very limited to avoid it being abused by teams. And it would have to go hand in hand with a review of how the TMO intervenes in matches.

Yes I agree it's an interesting idea and certainly worthy of investigating further. I think that one per team per match would be the max though.

System like this is used in international hockey. One review per side, but they keep their review if they are successful. Works well in hockey, however the decisions tend to be more “fact” based with less interpretation available. The captain of a team reviewing a decision like a goal or a short corner has a time limit to ask for review, think they also have to state what they want the tmo to review

 
Re: Discipline
JO'G (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 11:29
listening to the Eggchasers podcast this week, they mentioned that they thought Carley had a bad game, where for some reason all the 50/50 calls went Sale's way. Given they live in Manchester, thats pretty damning

What they went on to say, was that bad or inconsistent reffing was bad for the game, because newcomers found it difficult to understand. all I ever want is for a ref to be consistent; even if he is wrong, you can at least say he was wrong for both sides. Ideally you want the refs to be consistent with each other, but thats probably difficult especially as each union tries to get its refs working to the same template that suits the game in that country

 
Re: Discipline
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 16:36
I heard that too but I think they made an equally valid point re the scrum that Mako and Koch are both experienced operators and should really be able to do a better job of changing the referees perception of what is going on. Tbh even with a good referee the scrum is often a lottery.

 
Re: Discipline
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 17:55
Quote:
SarrieSaint
I heard that too but I think they made an equally valid point re the scrum that Mako and Koch are both experienced operators and should really be able to do a better job of changing the referees perception of what is going on. Tbh even with a good referee the scrum is often a lottery.

Heard this also.... and they are correct, they noticed that after 1st scrum (when Sarries demolished them) every time it went down Sale painted a better picture by pushing on the ground.... as they say 2 VERY experienced front rowers should have sorted that.



SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes

 
Re: Discipline
BaltiBoy (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 21:26
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
Sarriebone

But it could be useful in certain situations. In the Quins game last week, the ref said a few times "you're asking me about something I didn't see" or words to that effect, it may have been in relation to Ward spitting, not sure. But that could have been one use for a team's referral without undermining the ref's authority.

I certainly think the idea has merit but it would have to be very limited to avoid it being abused by teams. And it would have to go hand in hand with a review of how the TMO intervenes in matches.

Yes I agree it's an interesting idea and certainly worthy of investigating further. I think that one per team per match would be the max though.

How aggrieved though would you feel if you used your team's TMO referral only to have it refuted by a shocking decision such as the one (by Rose I think) regarding the Olowofela effort last weekend.

I think TMO's need to up their game just as much as the refs imho.



Cheers & Beers
BB

 
Re: Discipline
Sarriebone (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 23:23
Quote:
BaltiBoy
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
Sarriebone

But it could be useful in certain situations. In the Quins game last week, the ref said a few times "you're asking me about something I didn't see" or words to that effect, it may have been in relation to Ward spitting, not sure. But that could have been one use for a team's referral without undermining the ref's authority.

I certainly think the idea has merit but it would have to be very limited to avoid it being abused by teams. And it would have to go hand in hand with a review of how the TMO intervenes in matches.

Yes I agree it's an interesting idea and certainly worthy of investigating further. I think that one per team per match would be the max though.

How aggrieved though would you feel if you used your team's TMO referral only to have it refuted by a shocking decision such as the one (by Rose I think) regarding the Olowofela effort last weekend.

I think TMO's need to up their game just as much as the refs imho.

TMO/refs upping their game goes without saying.

 
Re: Discipline
myleftboot (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 08:27
Different sport I know, but my cousin is a TMO for the MLS. He tells me how hard a skill it is to learn, even when his day job is working in media for Fox and MGM, and not everyone can adapt /learn it. May I suggest shifting a lesser referee such as Mr Rose into the hot seat was destined to fail?

 
Re: Discipline
JO'G (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 09:22
I was a bit shocked by the TMO decision, but when I heard it was Rose - not so surprised

 
Re: Discipline
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 10:20
I thought that Tempest got the scrum yellows right. I found it refreshing that he didn't chicken out - we need more of this - coaches would pretty quickly respond and we would see less of the cynical defending that mars the game.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Discipline
JO'G (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 12:02
Quote:
TonyTaff
I thought that Tempest got the scrum yellows right. I found it refreshing that he didn't chicken out - we need more of this - coaches would pretty quickly respond and we would see less of the cynical defending that mars the game.

I have long been an advocate that in a 5-yard scrum situation, if the attacking scrum starts moving forward and the ball is at the number 8's feet then the option of an attacking penalty for a scrum offence should be removed

Penalty try or no offence.

If the scrum hasn't moved forward, then the penalty option should be on the table. the ref could call out ' scrum going forward' or something similar to alert the defending team that if they offend now, its a penalty try for certain

 
Re: Discipline
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 20:16
I like that idea, JO’G

 
Re: Discipline
LutonS (IP Logged)
14 January, 2019 08:49
Much better yesterday in terms of referee management, still giving away a few too many penalties I feel, especially for high tackles but progress nevertheless. Well done Sarries.

 
Re: Discipline
Rupes (IP Logged)
14 January, 2019 09:07
Not so sure - at one stage in the second half there were two (arguably three) high tackles and a shoulder in about 15 seconds! Only two of which were picked up but with a different referee / TMO and possibly a higher profile and more important match, who knows. Mind you, there's nothing new there, I think we've had a tackle height issue for a while now.

Long way to go on the discipline front I think, but more than happy to be proved wrong!

JOG - that's not a bad idea. My only question is that a penalty try is normally (!) given when a try is guaranteed to have been scored but for foul play. How does a referee know that the no.8 is going to pick the ball up cleanly to get the ball touched down? But I like the principle of that.

 
Re: Discipline
JO'G (IP Logged)
14 January, 2019 09:16
I was listening to another podcast on the tempest bath situation and the opinion was that because it was the last play if the game he didn't want to give worcester the game especially as the conversion is included in a penalty try.
He was trying to make sure worcester won the game on their own abilities eat her than being given it. Especially since a missed conversion meant a draw. If course he rightly made bath pay for illegal play. Two of those yellow cards for me were certain penalty tries but I can see their point
Correct result happened In the end

 
Re: Discipline
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
14 January, 2019 12:32
Quote:
Rupes
JOG - that's not a bad idea. My only question is that a penalty try is normally (!) given when a try is guaranteed to have been scored but for foul play. How does a referee know that the no.8 is going to pick the ball up cleanly to get the ball touched down? But I like the principle of that.

The relevant word in the law is "probably', Rupes - you have been listening to LBND too much!

A five-metre scrum already advancing, particularly against depleted opposition, would pass that test for me, every time. So, Jeremy would get his wish, if I had the whistle. However, I can understand Mr Tempest's decision making!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Discipline
Egg Timer (IP Logged)
15 January, 2019 12:58
Quote:
myleftboot
May I suggest shifting a lesser referee such as Mr Rose into the hot seat was destined to fail?

David Rose? A "lesser" referee.

Crikey.

 
Re: Discipline
Surbiton Sarries (IP Logged)
19 January, 2019 17:24
No problem today with Brad back in charge

 
Re: Discipline
myleftboot (IP Logged)
19 January, 2019 23:02
Quote:
Sam Skennel

David Rose? A "lesser" referee.

Crikey.
a supposedly professional referee expressing his dislike in national media for a team his profession requires neutrality towards? Crikey indeed. "stick him in the van, what's the worst he can do...."

 
Re: Discipline
vunipolae (IP Logged)
19 January, 2019 23:07
Thought the discipline was very good today. This can partly be put down to Bradley's return but no penalties at all in the first 50 minutes of the game today is very impressive

 
Re: Discipline
darktagnan (IP Logged)
20 January, 2019 10:39
Only 4 pens conceded in the whole game - which makes a huge difference


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?