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NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
darktagnan (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 00:34
[www.bbc.co.uk]

I'm just going to throw this in as a debating topic without expressing an opinion one way or the other - particularly as I know that Sarries fans have in the past been abused because of our logo in the Euston Flyer & elsewhere.

Do we needs to consider any changes ourselves?

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
Roger G (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 08:57
Personally I think Crusaders a making a big mistake, and the only beneficiaries from the publicity gained this will be the bad guys. Same would be the case for us. If some people are so prejudiced and/or bigotted that they are offended by a historical reference from hundreds of years ago, that is clearly not condoning the actions of those referenced, they need education, not appeasement.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 09:36
Quote:
Roger G
Personally I think Crusaders a making a big mistake, and the only beneficiaries from the publicity gained this will be the bad guys. Same would be the case for us. If some people are so prejudiced and/or bigotted that they are offended by a historical reference from hundreds of years ago, that is clearly not condoning the actions of those referenced, they need education, not appeasement.

I think that you are missing the point. Its not that most people are offended about the actual Crusades nearly 1000 years ago, it is more that that a sports club do not want to be associated with a series of religious wars between Christians and Muslims. The event was historic but the situation is current in many places in the world.

I guess that the club think that it could be an opportunity to use a name which has more positive connotations. Notwithstanding that, they may not even be renaming - at the moment only the badge will be changing whilst they undertake a 'brand review'. The statement is below:

[crusaders.co.nz]



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 09:55
I think BathMat is right - Crusaders historically attacked Muslims; and todayís Crusaders in NZ donít want to be perceived to be associated with the recent attacks on Muslims and some of that growing Islamophobia. I think (sadly) that the NZ Crusaders are doing the right thing - certainly with their visual identity

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
Roger G (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 10:08
I don't think I'm "missing the point". Nobody in their right mind would even remotely suspect that a rugby club calling themselves "Crusaders", who had had that name for donkeys' years, was condoning, supporting or even vaguelly associated with the recent violent acts. Only very small minded individuals would believe there was some connection, and that is the group they are pandering to by considering a change of emblem/name.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 10:10
If you are right then the brand review will conclude that there is no need for a change.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
ninjafez (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 16:25
Now I do think this is quite interesting. I discuss Exeter chiefs use on the rugby shirt watch website last year and I bought out the crusaders is a point.

When it comes to sport clubs using names I don't think that really bothers them that much it's the imagery in regards to Exeter and the some of the others in Europe the first nation find it more upsetting that they use the 1930s style Hollywood imagery of "Indians", which doesn't flatten them or puts them in a good light.

[www.nytimes.com]

does it matter'? Sometimes I think it does, when I was more active in my church in my younger days we had a few people go out on mission to "reconciliation tours " to the middle East because the still get told of the crusades from elders and text so the point to tell them Christianity is not equal to Western America imagery so yep there are efforts go on tours to apologise for the crusades...I think was about 15 to 20 years ago so it may not be happening but it's not like the crusades have been forgotten.

Anywho I think it's good that the crusaders are looking into possibly and making it clear it's not been drivern by the attrocity. Keeping the name but dropping the imagery seems a good idea, like litterlly ridding on to the pitch on horseback dreessed as a knight...



Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2019 22:49 by ninjafez.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
RobB (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 09:47
Never mind this. We should seriously think about playing in red.

last week I had to travel back though Tottenham in my Red kit. That went well (Sm105)

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
JO'G (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 13:42
I'm not now able to find it, what with Saracens hogging the first 20 pages of the internet.

I have a memory that the word Saracen in a sporting context - like Wanders or Vagabonds not having a home ground and Corinthians having a more adventurous ethic

I though it related to being less structured; like you didn't have to be a member of the club to play, but I'm dissapointed I can't find a page on the internet

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
boomer! (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 15:24
Quote:
darktagnan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48566104
I'm just going to throw this in as a debating topic without expressing an opinion one way or the other - particularly as I know that Sarries fans have in the past been abused because of our logo in the Euston Flyer & elsewhere.

Do we needs to consider any changes ourselves?

NO!

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
Innings (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 16:00
Harlequins are clownist, Wasps are insectist, and Saints religiously bigoted. Sharks are an endangered species, London Irish racist and we all know what Bears do in the woods.

Overall, the only safe naming policy is to re-name all clubs by numbers: PRL 1, PRL 2 and so on. To ensure fair treatment for all, each club will be renumbered each year. The renumbering will be by random computer drawn lottery, with the program to ensure that over 12 seasons each club will have taken all the numbers once.

Similarly, club colours will be 36 random designs, three for each club, without reference to any club's historical identity, and all designs will be changed annually, then randomly allocated. This part of the new PC PRL will be uncontentious, given that the system ia already operated at most clubs already.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
london pride (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 16:53
Let's all wring our hands and beat ourselves up.After all, it's everybody's right to be offended about everything.
Spike Milligan once wrote a letter to the Times, all it said was 'Dear Sir, I wish to complain, about everything.'
We are talking about sporting clubs, in particular, Rugby Clubs.Its just a name.No offence has ever been intended.But if enough people keep going on about it, you can bet your bottom Dollar (sorry, can I say that) somebody, somewhere will decide to be offended by it.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
EssexSarrie (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 20:32
J O'G's post about other rugby clubs called ".........Saracens" prompted a few memories.

Various members of my family have played for Bath Saracens and Exeter Saracens in the past. The irony of the clubs' locations will not be lost.

Exeter Saracens were founded in the post war club boom of 1953, while Bath Saracens used to be the Bath Civil Service Club and only changed their name to Bath Saracens as recently as 1991. Slightly surprising with the potential sensitivities of the association then.

By the way, we could have ended up being called Crusaders too, not Saracens, since Sarries merged with the nearby Crusaders club in 1878!

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
ninjafez (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 20:50
Quote:
Innings
Harlequins are clownist, Wasps are insectist, and Saints religiously bigoted. Sharks are an endangered species, London Irish racist and we all know what Bears do in the woods.
Overall, the only safe naming policy is to re-name all clubs by numbers: PRL 1, PRL 2 and so on. To ensure fair treatment for all, each club will be renumbered each year. The renumbering will be by random computer drawn lottery, with the program to ensure that over 12 seasons each club will have taken all the numbers once.

Similarly, club colours will be 36 random designs, three for each club, without reference to any club's historical identity, and all designs will be changed annually, then randomly allocated. This part of the new PC PRL will be uncontentious, given that the system ia already operated at most clubs already.

Well, i hope you feel a bit better after that innings, not sure want the point was.....



Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
Innings (IP Logged)
10 June, 2019 23:33
The Americans don't get irony either.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
BramleyRoad (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 05:28
[quote derbyshire fan]I think BathMat is right - Crusaders historically attacked Muslims; and todayís Crusaders in NZ donít want to be perceived to be associated with the recent attacks on Muslims and some of that growing Islamophobia]Quote

Worldwide, Muslims have been attacking Christians for centuries. Ask any Nigerian. But one mad white supremacist and suddenly itís something thatís the white peoplesí problem. Islam has a history of bloodshed since day one.
The European Crusader armies were sent to protect the Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem, which were being slaughtered by the local Arab Muslims. Centuries earlier, when the Roman general Vaspasian led his army against Jerusalem in 66AD it was joined by a large vanguard of Arabs who led the slaughter of the local Jews. This was 600 years before Mohammed, who himself was a warmongering bandit (read any of his biographies) and even put the principle of slaughtering Jews and Christians into the Koran. Yet the self loathing and historical ignorance of 21st century white snowflakes wants to flip responsibilities and reasons the opposite way. Learn some more history or youíll end up repeating its mistakes.

ĎWe have met with senior representatives of the local Muslim community to pay our respects and show our supportĎ. Thatís great but when did you ever hear an Imam apologise or take responsibility for the countless Muslim acts of terror of the recent decades?



Supporting Saracens for 52 years

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
Waldo (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 14:44
I expect when the chaps at the Philological School called their rugby team Saracens they were basing on a fact that Saracens were considered to be warriors and that kind of fitted in to the rugby mold.

However it is thought by many scholars to have originated fro the latin word "sarakeonoi" which means "easterners" was was used to describe the nomadic tribes of living along the eastern borders of the roman empire (so says Jerold Frakes in his 2011 book "Contextualizing the Muslim Other in Medieval Christian Discourse".

So in its original form it would be reasonably fitting as we were indeed a nomadic rugby team. )

Frakes goes on to say that over time it became a a pejorative term for all Arabs.

So if we weren't going to be called Saracens - what could we be called ? (cue all the suggestions of Cheetah's from the usual suspects !)

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 15:30
Quote:
Waldo
So if we weren't going to be called Saracens - what could we be called ? (cue all the suggestions of Cheetah's from the usual suspects !)

Wanderers? Nomads?

Shirley, the Philological School should have opted for "The Peripatetics"!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
ninjafez (IP Logged)
11 June, 2019 18:51
Quote:
Innings
The Americans don't get irony either.

I think you used so much irony, I made a mistake think you had gone full circle back to being serious :p



Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
JO'G (IP Logged)
12 June, 2019 12:42
other pressing options are available

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
maynas (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 09:35
Quote:
Innings
Harlequins are clownist, Wasps are insectist, and Saints religiously bigoted. Sharks are an endangered species, London Irish racist and we all know what Bears do in the woods.
Overall, the only safe naming policy is to re-name all clubs by numbers: PRL 1, PRL 2 and so on. To ensure fair treatment for all, each club will be renumbered each year. The renumbering will be by random computer drawn lottery, with the program to ensure that over 12 seasons each club will have taken all the numbers once.

Similarly, club colours will be 36 random designs, three for each club, without reference to any club's historical identity, and all designs will be changed annually, then randomly allocated. This part of the new PC PRL will be uncontentious, given that the system ia already operated at most clubs already.

Very good but sadly exactly how a lot of North London liberal snowflakes really think.
Pretty soon historic names, statues , buildings and other left overs will all be erased and we will live in a wonderfully bland PC society. If they were really liberal why do they foist their ideas onto the rest of us? Arenít there enough issues out there to be really concerned with?

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
boomer! (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 14:14
Quote:
Innings
Harlequins are clownist, Wasps are insectist, and Saints religiously bigoted. Sharks are an endangered species, London Irish racist and we all know what Bears do in the woods.
Overall, the only safe naming policy is to re-name all clubs by numbers: PRL 1, PRL 2 and so on. To ensure fair treatment for all, each club will be renumbered each year. The renumbering will be by random computer drawn lottery, with the program to ensure that over 12 seasons each club will have taken all the numbers once.

Similarly, club colours will be 36 random designs, three for each club, without reference to any club's historical identity, and all designs will be changed annually, then randomly allocated. This part of the new PC PRL will be uncontentious, given that the system ia already operated at most clubs already.

and as a nod to the LGBTQ+ community, every team should have rainbow colours as there change kit.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 06:59
and this is how sensitive some people are over a flag/bagde..

[www.cyprustodayonline.com]



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Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
AlanE (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 08:06
Quote:
1876-Fez
and this is how sensitive some people are over a flag/badge..
[www.cyprustodayonline.com]


....and quite understandably given the history, which in this case is well within living memory, unlike the Crusaders references.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 10:33
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
1876-Fez
and this is how sensitive some people are over a flag/badge..
[www.cyprustodayonline.com]


....and quite understandably given the history, which in this case is well within living memory, unlike the Crusaders references.

Rubbish.

Waldo fought in the first Crusade and Boonie was a reporter winking smiley



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
AlanE (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 14:33
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
1876-Fez
and this is how sensitive some people are over a flag/badge..
[www.cyprustodayonline.com]


....and quite understandably given the history, which in this case is well within living memory, unlike the Crusaders references.

Rubbish.

Waldo fought in the first Crusade and Boonie was a reporter winking smiley

Lol - had forgotten them.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
ninjafez (IP Logged)
20 June, 2019 23:30
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
1876-Fez
and this is how sensitive some people are over a flag/badge..
[www.cyprustodayonline.com]


....and quite understandably given the history, which in this case is well within living memory, unlike the Crusaders references.

Rubbish.

Waldo fought in the first Crusade and Boonie was a reporter winking smiley

Lol - had forgotten them.


In all seriousness, were we asked to reverse our logo due the similarity of the Turkish C&R?



Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

 
Re: NZ Crusaders rename\rebrand
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
21 June, 2019 14:45
Quote:
ninjafez
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
1876-Fez
and this is how sensitive some people are over a flag/badge..
[www.cyprustodayonline.com]


....and quite understandably given the history, which in this case is well within living memory, unlike the Crusaders references.

Rubbish.

Waldo fought in the first Crusade and Boonie was a reporter winking smiley

Lol - had forgotten them.


In all seriousness, were we asked to reverse our logo due the similarity of the Turkish C&R?

Something like that.

In the hours before our cup final win, I was accosted by a Turkish street vendor, in Twickenham, who sought to take issue with image on the club/Fezboyz garment I was then wearing.

Fortunately, I had not started drinking, and was able to disarm the situation tactfully. This is not my strongest suit!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.


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