So, I was in a bar with some friends in Putney last night, and who should I suddenly see but Butch, Sheer and Dixie out with some friends.

I decided that I'd leave them be because I was sure they just wanted to have a few beers with their mates and relax. A few beers of my own later and I found myself standing next to Butch and couldn't help myself.

"Please tell me you're not leaving!" I blurted out!

He was very frank and honest and told me that he really wanted to go back to SA. It's nothing to do with his missus or anything else apart from the fact that he wants to play for the Springboks again. He said that he loves the team but doesn't yet know what is going to happen. He also promised me that he would give 100% to whoever he plays for next season and that he loves playing for Bath.

We talked a little bit about Sale beating Wasps and with no arrogance he told me that he can't see us losing very many more games this season. I mentioned that Leicester away will probably be out biggest test. "We can definitely beat them" he told me.

Finally (as I sensed I was boring him!) I asked him about Mad Dog. He intimated that he thought he was going to leave, but also said (rather surprizingly) that he didn't think that Bath had offered him that great a deal to stay. Shame if that is the case.

I know that this isn't really anthing that we didn't already know, but I thought worth mentioning as it was straight from the horses mouth.

You should go drinking in Putney more often trick=legend

He's a loyal Bok - what'd we all really expect? Give him a sabatical with a return option is my option - what do you reckon?

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Do hope Butch is right about not losing any more matches, and that Leicester should be 'no problem'! Those tea leaves again?! Don't like to hear that he is thinking of tearing up his option on the contract though ......................

As for Maddock - the Club Mgt (and the Head Coach) will have no one to blame but themselves if he leaves.

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Nick Abendanon - another outstanding homegrown talent.
Very proud to be his adoptive supporter for 2010/11:

i'd do the same for both salvi and butch Bod. keep them to til end of nov time, they have a few months rest, play the super 15....if they make the world cup then get them back after that. if they dont they will be back for start of 2011/2012 season knowing they gave ot their best shot.

key to that approach would be strength in depth (should have cap as salvi and butch would be on pro rata). backrow already looks very tasty....if we had vesty with OB to cover i would be pretty comfortable esp if we got another decent midfielder like twelvetrees.

sadly i dont think this will happen for either!

as for mad dog....class player but is he likely to be as good over the next 2 years as he has been over especially the last 4? its a tough call...

Such gratitude, Charlie b!

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Nick Abendanon - another outstanding homegrown talent.
Very proud to be his adoptive supporter for 2010/11:

To be honest, Butch's response doesn;t surprise me. My guess is that his continued participation in a Bath shirt next season will depend solely on whether we sign a suitable replacement.

annie, i know you believe we should keep every player on forever.........

:'(

It's not clear that Butch would get in the Springboks side if he went back - hell, it's not even clear he would be a starting 10 in a Super 15 side. It would be a big gamble for him to return.

On the bright side, the minute the WC is over every South African will be looking for a European club.

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Stuart

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I'm listening to:

tend to agree stuart. with the timing of the world cup would he be that much worse off being in england next season. guess thats a conversation he has to have with PDV.

I also agree. As much as I love Butch, he's not the best goalkicker and from what I know (limited to be fair), apart from Francois Steyn, they don't really have any one else (bar whoever plays 10) to kick. That would put him down the pecking order in my opinion.

Maybe when the WC is over Mat Giteau might be looking for a UK club............I can but dream!

It's going to be really difficult to get an international class fly-half this year with the world cup so close.

i think we may have to 'settle' for vesty / hodgson.... we'll see. all conjencture and speculation at the mo (which of course most of us love inc myself)

Well, Leicester won the title last year with Vesty at the helm for the majority of the season, so he'd be my first choice given the available contenders (though there could always be someone out of left-field).

i really rate vesty.......as i have said before davis and butch out with vesty and twelvetrees in would be ok business by us i think. cant see that happening though.

I'd take Vesty. If Butch is going to leave then he's probably the best we could hope to get at this late stage. If he does want to challenge for England, probably the best place for him to do it.

Charlie Hodgson would be a good acqusition but again, not a long term option. Great club player.

If we want a like for like and a long term option, one look at Francois Trinh Duc.

Young and has all the same attributes of Butch, but not yet the same standard that comes with the experiences, however he will soon have it.

Would be the best possible option

Nope coz we ain't got the dosh - Jason Tovey from the Dragons is a good option I think.

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Yeah, minor issue with Trinh-Duc is that it would never, ever happen.

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For the money we'd have to pay for Trinh Duc, I wouldn't want him, class though he is. I agree with Bod that Tovey's a good player, but can't see him coming here. I've also always been a fan of Ryan Lamb (controversial I know), but again, I can't see him playing for us yet.

bet theres some good un's in the southern hemisphere that we arent fully aware of. i didnt know much about claassy and salvi before they arrived!

We would have the dosh if Butch left, Bod.

Is Tovey out of contract? If not, then there's no point even talking about him, as we're in no position to pay transfer fees.

except the dosh we would surely expect from the destination SA super 15 team/ SARU for the 2 remaining years of butch's legally binding contract with the club?

Looks depressing. I guess we'l just have to hope Smee can play a blinder and come up with an unexpected, yet brilliant replacement.

The worry is that this may not come off, so we'll be left short like in the year OB left us and we'd not lined up a replacement.

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Matt Banahan 2010-11 adoptee
Focusing on the backs after 3 years of successful front row adoption

Quote:

RCC
We would have the dosh if Butch left, Bod.

True, but no where near enough.

Surely Trinh Duc's wages would not exceed Butch's. I know it's all hypothetical but still?

I'd be quite surprised if they didn't. By all accounts, we've got Butch for a pretty reasonable amount.
Given how much the French pay their players, current exchange rates, and that he's now an established (if not experienced) international, his price tag is probably circa k300-400k pa (I'd guess that Butch is around the £250k mark) - to give a comparison, we know that Harindordoquy is on £1M pa; Wilko was what? £650k?

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RAEBURN SHIELD



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 22/03/2010 20:35 by Which Tyler.

Chatting with a Tigs mate on Sunday who is usually pretty knowledgeable about all things Leicester. He reckoned Vesty (who he definately rates) is off and probably to us.

So Butch, Salvi and Maddog leaving it seems. Really hope SM and co know what they are doing.

Not a good news day.

vesty would be good move for all parties i think.

i think moody/ taylor in for salvi/ browne leaves us slightly stronger. need to make sure we are really astute in replacing butch and mad dog.....smee doesnt make many errors in the transfer market.

think your figure of 300k plus is probably about right post 6N for trinh duch WT. Think theres a typo re Butch.... i heard he was on slightly over 200k which represents very good value imho. those suggested wages for wilko and certainly IH are a bit on the high side. hayman is set to earn over 500k/season at toulon i believe.

with little and possibly davis going aswell we'd need 2 guys of course.

http://www.keo.co.za/2010/03/22/sharks-seek-butch-return/

like the clubs stance on this. worst case scenario sounds like a big compensation figure. this could help with getting an in-contract replacement if required.

if its clarified that overseas based players will be available for world cup selection i am still not convinvced this will be enough to keep butch sadly.

Quote:

charlieboa
think your figure of 300k plus is probably about right post 6N for trinh duch WT. Think theres a typo re Butch.... i heard he was on slightly over 200k which represents very good value imho.

oops, supposed to be circa £250k for Butch.
Commentators through the 6N have seemed pretty certain on £1M for Hary (could have been E1M I guess, which is much the same these days; I was pretty surprised too; they were quoting him as the best paid player). I'm also pretty sure Wilko was speculated to earn £2M in 3 years at Toulon (again, could well have been E2M, which again, is much the same thing)

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RAEBURN SHIELD



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/03/2010 20:40 by Which Tyler.

sure you are right WT just sure Bod posted a list of top french earners the other week which had IH earning about 450k and wilko just over 400k....but have heard the higher figures banded around so who knows! sweeteners of houses overlooking the med seem to be the norm down in toulon!

If Butch leaves us I am afraid that it will show either his lack of judgement or lack of commitment.
Either he judged a couple of years ago that his international was over and his future was only in club rugby.
Or he has no sense of enduring commitment to (his) team.
He signed a long-term contract at Bath (for what was no doubt a considerable sum of money) and should honour that and not renege on his word.
At the moment his procrastination on what is best for himself is highly likely to be influencing the negotiations for his replacement / cover player (in terms of salary available and ranking order)
I hope that his actions will have no long-term detriment to our club.

Incidentally, Hayman is rumoured to be on E1.2M pa for 3 years at Toulon with a 1 year extension written in

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RAEBURN SHIELD



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

I still think we should get Joe Ford from Leeds as he is an excellent young fly half with great potential. I cant see him going to Sale with their form. Otherwise home grown talent like Paul Roberts is an option. If James leaves then Vestey would be a good choice.

Two sides of 'player power'

This is a pair illustrative cases (possibly). Butch, a player that we want to keep, can basically do what he wants with his contract. Joe a player we (the club) don't seem so fussed by (rightly or wrongly) is in a very weak position.

If Butch's heart is elsewhere, we're better off letting him go with good memories and a thank you. As for Joe, its the nature of the game we've created.

The reports I've read from the South African Press say that Natal want him but have asked the SARFU to fund the deal as they can't afford a transfer fee. Are they going to want to do this for a 31 year old with injury problems who will only be available for the World Cup? Maybe he could go to Saracens who are effectively a South Afican provence with loads of money.

I have read somewhere that Joe Maddock turned down £150,000 on offer from Tigers. The salary cap does stifle clubs particularly when they have a couple of big earners like Butch and Lewis. I do hope now that the Salvi position is clear that we can find a bit of flexibility to solve the Joe problem. He is a real match winner.

I really want Joe to stay! Please sort it NB!

I guess it's easy to critisise management for not holding on or keeping the players we want, but with 40-odd guys all asking for as much of the cake as they can get it must be like herding cats sometimes. That said, it's the job of NB, Smee and any DoR we get in to ensure we have the right balance. In the era of a global game it doesn't help when there's no parity between salary caps in different leagues.

from a hard nosed business perspective we will have 'x' amount of cap left, is joe a better bet on 'x' salary or are their better options out there for the same money....and of course what does he want to do for him and his family. the rumour is he feels the bath offer undervalues him........but show me any employee who thinks they get paid what they deserve! the bonus of joe is you know exactly what you are getting and thats a bloody good player, and bloke by all accounts..... doesnt look on the decline to me either!