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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:39

Andy Flower was being hailed as the greatest cricket coach ever 12 months ago - not looking so clever this morning. Is there a magic formula for all this?

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:42

He does seem a decent sort Bod Honourable Honest a breath of fresh air but cut the names off the CVs and assess them blind and he isn't in the race !!
The RFU will end up over paying for a No 2 like Smith to try and cover this shortfall in experience/ability, not the way to build a Coaching panel.



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:49

Quote:
Huxster
Rookie Head Coaches don't succeed at WC. SO with this appointment TW1 are kissing goodbye to 2015.

No reason to beleive that.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

Follow COML on Twitter

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:51

So, the No2 might be earning more than the HC?
There's a thought!
Probably the idea of the 5 wise men eh?

Or will they stick with Farrell and Rowntree?



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:53

Quote:
TCM2007
Quote:
Huxster
Rookie Head Coaches don't succeed at WC. SO with this appointment TW1 are kissing goodbye to 2015.

No reason to beleive that.

Woodentop and Ted blew it first time round!



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:55

I'm with Huxster on this, but time will tell. I probably will get annoyed if people cut him slack he doesn't deserve. He's got to produce a team that performs now AND build for the future. If we start accepting poor performances, we'll continue to produce poor performances. Winning is habitual and other cliches.

Tough I know, but it's the top job. It's going to be hard.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 10:58

..........but, let's look for the positives...........zzzzzz



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 11:01

Evidence backs it up Stu, he's been a head coach for Leeds for 1 Season of Prem Rugby and they got relegated, on the job learning isn't good at International level.
He took over the England side when expectation was at an all time low, possibly even rock bottom, a no lose situation and he did well. He now has to put together a coaching team, no doubt helped by the RFU and Squeaky who have shown no ability in this.
He put together a very rugby league esque gameplan, this will surprise people at first but will be outdone by smarter teams, or Farrell did, who Sarries seem unlikely to let go, so he needs to find everything apart from the scrum coach so is in effect starting again, lets hope he's as lucky (needs to be luckier) second time around.
A simple RL attack system like that used By Rod Mcqueen in 99 would undo this current England side.



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 11:05

Quote:
Optimist
Andy Flower was being hailed as the greatest cricket coach ever 12 months ago - not looking so clever this morning. Is there a magic formula for all this?
Good Point Opti, but it doesn't matter as the players love playing for him and the squad is unified !!!(Sm163)



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: tigeroo (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 11:14

Quote:
..........but, let's look for the positives...........zzzzzz

Gatland's speciality that is.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:14


 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:20

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02180/lancaster_pyramid_2180153a.jpg

This is part of Lancaster's presentation to the assorted gurus explaining his thinking of where he is with England.
(Balanced ego??)



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:29

yeayh, I'd agree with all that, but it's got to be more proactive and where's the synergy?

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:42

Good chart.

Right decision in my view, just as I'd rather Bath sign an up an coming English player over a SH big name.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:45

Which up-coming English player Stu?



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:47

So looking at his own chart he has not yet displayed
Game plan, skill set, fitness or decision making in his coaching!!! He's never coached a successful long term gameplan!! Quite important IMHO



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 12:52

Oh come on Hux, you're deliberately misreading it.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: ballsout (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:19

Or, paying far too much attention to a chart

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:19

Not reaLLY sTU TO BE COMPETITIVE THEY WILL NEED TO BRING IN A sMITH SAY, WHO WILL PROVIDE ALL THOSE THINGS ABOVE sl'S ACHIEVED LINE SO WHY NOT HIRE A HEAD COACH WHO HAS INSTILLED THOSE THINGS AT iNT LEVEL ALREADY, sl HASN'T EVEN INSTILLED THOSE THINGS PROPERLY AT pREM LEVEL, HE'S AN UNSUCCESSFUL pREM LEVEL COACH.

New keyboard still having caps lock issues !! aaarggh

I have nothing against him as a person as a coach he has a vast lack of experience. People are riding the emotion of doing better than expected in the 6N, he has been within the RFU for a few years now so no doubt his presentation is exactly what they wanted to hear.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 13:24 by Huxster.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Old Bathonian (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:27

The most important thing is that we have a English coach for the English team.

He now has 3(ish) years to get it sorted.....

The only negative is we now have no chance of getting Rowntree here.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:30

Quote:
Old Bathonian
The most important thing is that we have a English coach for the English team.
There was me thinking the most important thing is to get the best man for the job, nationality shouldn't be an issue.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Old Bathonian (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:34

Quote:
Huxster
Quote:
Old Bathonian
The most important thing is that we have a English coach for the English team.
There was me thinking the most important thing is to get the best man for the job, nationality shouldn't be an issue.

Of course it should. How many RWC winning teams have had a "foreign" coach?

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: The Artist formerly known as RCC (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:38

Good luck to the bloke. It's not going to be easy, and they're going to have to play better rugby than they have been to keep up with the pack, but I reckon he can do it.

I have to say, it did make me chuckle to read Phil Dowson's ringing endorsement of Lanc yesterday. I'd put that down in the main part to the fact Lancaster is the only person who thinks Dowson's an international number 8!

Seriously though, the players should have been gagged after the 6N as to have them all shouting publically in favour of Lancaster as they were made it imbalanced and unfair for the other candidates vying for the job.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 13:42 by Rolfs_Cartoon_Club.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:43

How did SA do with De Villiers(He wasn't the best man for the Job either) or Wales with Jenkins, only 1 team can win it more teams lose with Home coaches.
Or maybe the winning coaches were the best man ??!! Obviously as they won it.
When under pressure its experience that gets you through when having to make adjustments to gameplans mid tournament but I'm sure we'll be fine with a man who has never instilled a successful gameplan at a high level.
This was SCW's problem as well and look at 1999 not 2003 as by 2001 he had got it right.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 13:43 by Huxster.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: m0rris (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:48

Indeed, but how did the All Blacks do with Henry, the Boks with White, England with Woodward.

Nationality shhouldn't be the deciding factor but I think having someone who has from a young age supported the team as the chief can help if he is also good at coaching.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Humpo (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:53

For those that doubt SL's experience, look at Sir Clive's experience before he took on the England job:

London Irish/Eng U21 - 1994-1997
Assistant Coach @ Bath - 1997

Hardly a sparkling CV, don't you agree?

Give Lancaster a chance.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:54

Quote:
m0rris
Indeed, but how did the All Blacks do with Henry, the Boks with White, England with Woodward.
Nationality shhouldn't be the deciding factor but I think having someone who has from a young age supported the team as the chief can help if he is also good at coaching.

The sole determinants surely are that they should be competent and professional?



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Clarkey3k (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:55

I am delighted by this news and for SL, he's earned it. The Y/N chatter will continue on forums, in the papers, in the pubs and clubs up and down the rugby landscape but it's clear more support his appointment than not - you can't please everyone. Looking forward now to SA tour without the hullaballoo of Mallet leading England in his home country etc. What a distraction that would have been for all involved. Also looking forward to Jones spluttering with indignation his sage advice has also been ignored in the ST this weekend - what a windbag he's turned out to be!

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:58

Should be E.gland qualified in my view. It's supposed to be our national representative side.


With coaches having done it in the past (Mallet, SIM) doesn't mean they can do it again.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 14:00

Thanks Humpo that helps prove my point how did England do in 1999, he got it right in 2001 to 2003 he was hired in 1997 and learned on the job. The Lancaster hire puts ENgland in a position where 2015 is beyond them due to the learning curve he'll be on and if they need to hire Wayne Smith to make England competitive then SL isn't the man for the job.



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 14:01

What like Tuilagi Stu, Mallet is more English than a lot of people playing rugby or cricket for them currently !! at least he was born here.



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bri (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 14:56

Been name to 2016 good luck to him.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 15:11

Doesn't prove anything Hux. The whole entity of professional rugby union has grown up in a vast number of ways since Woodward was appointed in '97.

There is a huge collective well of precedent and experience for Lancaster to draw on now, that wasn't available to anyone back then - including a total of 7 World Cups against the 3 that Woodward had as precedents.

Players are coming through younger these days because they are getting professional habits from a very young age. Why shouldn't coaches too? Lancaster is at just about the perfect age, IMO. Could be 'the special one'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 15:57 by Optimist.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 15:54

Quote:
Huxster
What like Tuilagi Stu, Mallet is more English than a lot of people playing rugby or cricket for them currently !! at least he was born here.

Tuilagi is qualified under the IRB rules; Mallett would not be. I would argue the rules need a review, but as they currently stand that's how it goes.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

Follow COML on Twitter

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 16:40

Good point OPti all this precedent and Experience wasn't available to Johnson then ?? the last Inexperienced HC ENgland had ??!!



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 16:45

When you think of everything that went wrong in the last WC, it's hard to see Lancaster making any of those mistakes. I don't think there's anything especially magical required beyond squad selection and team motivation.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 16:52

When the IRB agrees with you Stu, I will. At the moment we seem to be shooting ourselves in the foot for anachronistic ideology.

Opti, Huxsters problem is with his experience, it seems, not his age. You can be a good player without experience, largely because energy makes up for it to a degree, I'm not convinced the same applies to coaching.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 17:03

"I don't think there's anything especially magical required beyond squad selection and team motivation."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No........I'll bite my lip, this is an England team thread!



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 17:22

Excellent choice. He seems to be a great motivator and looks like he will have a unified camp behind him.

All strength to his elbow.

You have lost your touch, Hux! Never in Doubt!!



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: mines a black rat (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 17:42

Does that mean we can have Mallet???

Whislt I have been pleased to see the weight lifted form the England team (let's be honest it could not of got much worse) as echoed above I do hope he has someone of Smith's as opposed to Squeaky to bounce ideas off.



Have you found the Black Rat?? I have!!

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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Miles Offside (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 17:52

Quote:
mines a black rat
Does that mean we can have Mallet???

Exactly my first thought when I heard the news.
Go on Bruce, you know you want to...

(Sm109)

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 17:59

Quote:
Miles Offside
Quote:
mines a black rat
Does that mean we can have Mallet???

Exactly my first thought when I heard the news.
Go on Bruce, you know you want to...

(Sm109)

The track record so far has Tony Hanks as the nailed on, dead-cert!



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: annie blackthorn (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 18:45

Good luck to him.
Could do worse.
Of course the current squad are going to jump up and down and say he is the man for the job. However, one would hope that those who make these decisions would have set those aside as being a tad biased. Anyway, glad its an Englishman, who seems to have come up the long thorough hard way coaching wise, and also hung on to his integrity. He has after all, been around the England political set-up for a while with Saxons so should know a thing or two about that can of worms.



Francois Louw
Proud to be wearing the BB&W and feared by all who play in the English Prem!

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 19:52

Good choice... And we can move on. The next 7 games determine the RWC seeding so they can be approached as a mini-series and then the development can start from there. Think how successful SA were with a defense based game and England are playing SA when many of their stars have retired. I think they'll probably have to break one or other on Heinrich Broussow's legs to win...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

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Ladies and Gentlemen, Elvis has left The Rec
Lest we forget... that try

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Clarkey3k (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 20:37

So what do we think his W/L ratio will be for the next 7 games? No team gets much in SA and we will be at the end of our season so 2-1 to SA. AI series could be W2/L2. Not sure what that would mean for RWC rankings but I'd settle for it, 2015 is a long way away.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 20:49

Quote:
Huxster
Good point OPti all this precedent and Experience wasn't available to Johnson then ?? the last Inexperienced HC ENgland had ??!!

If you're relying on comparing Lancaster to Johnson Hux, you've lost the argument. Johnson was inexperienced, unqualified and incompetent. I'd be surprised if he ever manages or coaches a rugby team again at any significant level.

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 21:02

I personally would have prefered Mallett.

That said, I think Lancaster is a very good choice. He is presumably chosen on the basis of his coaching philosophy & record (however limited at the very top level) rather than on previous playing or coaching reputation or big name status. He patently has a clear vision of the kind of attitude & ethos needed to form a successful squad. He has also got the team and the RFU on his side.

His lack of experience is a challenge and a concern though, as is the gameplan he might choose. On the evidence of the 6N just past, I think he departed from his usual playing style - was that down to the players available, or the rest of his coaching team?

As a team I think the RFU have it 2/3 right. Rowntree is an excellent choice as forwards coach (potential head coach of future?), but I would go for Wayne Smith for backs/attack coach.

PG

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Huxster (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 21:17

The trouble with hiring Smith is he's a better coach and got more experience.
Following on from some remarks on ERE he is also a kiwi so that disqualifies him.
No Opti not comparing SL to MJ, just that the players had equal prep and the knowledge base was there before but it failed with him so to rely onit to make up for SL inexperience is a bit of a leap particularly as Squeaky is involved.
However if a couple of wins against poor opposition marks him out as the outstanding candidate when prior to that he was only DoR for 2 seasons, Promotion then relegation, then thats fine I just expect more from the National Coach of my Country. He gets young players onm side because thats the bulk of his experience, a handful of years as Leeds Academy boss then the various titles with England always working with youngsters he has never built a successful top level team long or short term.
The Summer tour will be a bloodbath. The RFU needs to find him experienced assistants that won't undermine him by obviously knowing more than he does as when it gets difficult it'll be viewed as an in house replacement.
Kick, chase and tackle and team spirit surprised in the 6Nations but a huge styep up is required.



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Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: gloucesterwatcher (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 21:59

Now he has got the job, just like Johnson, he will have to "enjoy" a glass of Andrews every night

 
Re: Stuart Lancaster
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 08:43

Cohen not keen

I think the Boks will be awaiting with relish!



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