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Prison
Posted by: Bri (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 17:12

Keynsham rugby player jailed for 6months for breaking the jaw of Oldfields Ben Staunton Beechem cliff school teacher.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 21:07

Link? Otherwise this seems a fairly random posting.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dOg4Ljp3kh8/Sf89bRrqecI/AAAAAAAAAJY/eJCF1kt4b0E/s200/DON%27T-SHOOT-THE-MESSENGER1.jpg

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: FourSticks (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 21:17


 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 21:26

Thanks.
Pretty stupid act........even more stupid sentence.
The defendant obviously doesn't have enough "previous" to qualify for a community service award, or some kind of probation.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dOg4Ljp3kh8/Sf89bRrqecI/AAAAAAAAAJY/eJCF1kt4b0E/s200/DON%27T-SHOOT-THE-MESSENGER1.jpg

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: retired (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 21:39

Who made the complaint to the police?

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: retired (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 22:00


 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 22:14

The guidelines on sentencing for GBH are very detailed - if it came out at 6 months I'd be surprised if there wasn't a reason.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: comedowner (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 22:27

What would he have got just for the punch or kick if it had not broken his jaw ?. Punish the youngsters on the street not pick on rugby players that are playing a hard contact game and this happening in the heat of the moment A MASSIVE
SHAME he does not deserve that.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 22:34

Breaking the jaw moved it from assault or ABH to GBH, massively increasing the sentence. That's how it works.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: comedowner (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 22:54

Tcm 2007 this could happen in any sport the law is an ass

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: soapinthebath (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 23:37

This is an interesting one because I tend to think what happens on the pitch stays on the pitch, and a Duncan Macrae-esq sustained attack is the only real exception. Rugby is a contact sport and sometime tempers flare, but as a crowd we love a small scruffle and the odd cheeky punch, it's part of the game and everyone playing knows this.

The problem with criminal proceedings is if the door is opened to other injuries, ie what if Abendanon broke his jaw in the Tuilagi assaults last year? Would the law have to step in even if by the letter of the rugby laws they were just tough challenges?



http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7273/tindalleu1.jpg

welcome back tins...

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 23:50

Quote:
comedowner
Tcm 2007 this could happen in any sport the law is an ass

Yes it could. And if a tennis player floored his opponent causing GBH then I expect he'd be charged.

I suspect there's more to this case than meets the eye; the guidelines for a lowest category GBH is a community sentence; for it to have gone custodial suggests that in the eyes of the judge there were aggravating circumstances. Non have been reported, so I don't think we have all the facts.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: marshie10 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 23:53

Just unbelievable! What on earth is the world coming to?!

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: comedowner (IP Logged)
Date: 05 March, 2012 23:59

Tm2007 something tells me you work in law?

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 00:11

No, I don't.

In general I don't think the law should come into play with flare ups on the rugby field. But there is a line - it can't be a free for all to do what you want with impunity.

I suspect in the eyes of this judge, choosing to become involved in a scuffle which didn't initially involve you with the sole aim of attacking an opposition player causing him GBH crosses that line.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: Jaydeeone (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 00:47

Surprised this ended up at Crown Court. Must have been a real bleeding hearts victim statement!

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bri (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 06:55

If that's Ben Staunton ex Bath Cricketer and Oldfield player then why hit him only twice lol.
The guy stepped over the line for me but the sentence is harsh,he would have been better having a punch up after the game because then he would have got community service,unless like many he would prefer a holiday.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bath Fan Stuck in Glos. (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 08:40

Whilst the sentence is harsh the line between a few cheeky punches and running over to attack someone is huge, its what used to annoy me about local rugby i dont mind a hard game etc but everyone has to get up and work on Monday so setting out to hurt someone was not something i could ever do or support.

My old coach used to tell us to get involved even if we were not initially there, his argument was that the ref couldnt send everyone off, however ref's will normally ping the person running in as its the person they can see the most clearly.



Now stuck in Bristol, but i'm closer than before!!

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: 3Quarter (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 08:49

Not often that I agree with TCM, but he is right in saying you cannot take this at face value. There will be much more to this than meets the eye and although I do not like the law to get involved in sport there must be a point where the thuggery exceeds all sensible limits. Most of us enjoy watching a fiery encounter but hitting someone hard enough to cause these injuries, especially if he is unable to defend himself, is unacceptable.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: retired (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 09:03

Any aggravating circumstances must be brought up in court, thier is no hidden evidence that the Judge can take in account. If thier was more to this than meets the eye then it was, presumably, not presented to the court. The sentence is at the lower echelon for GBH, however given the full circumstances I feel that his prison place would have been better used for a more deserving character

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 11:01

Does seem harsh - we've seen most players on the pitch involved in fights in the last few weeks at Bath.

This comes across as a heat of the moment thing in a local derby, not a sustained criminal attack.

The prison place would be far better used on some street thug.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: fat lock (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 11:55

Carol Hagen - the judge - is far from a consistent 'sentencer.' I recall she caused an outcry in the past when she only gave a suspended sentence to someone who stabbed his neighbour. Also I think she was the judge who took over a case for sentencing where the trial judge advised a 16 month custodial sentence but she gave a suspended sentence.

Either she's being directed to 'toughen up' her sentencing, or there is more to this than we know. I suspect it will end up with an appeal.

I feel sorry for both parties, and would be interested to know who took it to the police.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 12:32

Check the Pictures with the article - click arrows



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dOg4Ljp3kh8/Sf89bRrqecI/AAAAAAAAAJY/eJCF1kt4b0E/s200/DON%27T-SHOOT-THE-MESSENGER1.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2012 12:34 by Ex-Bod.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: GP555ios (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 12:48

To answer the above, Ben Staunton himself took this to court. He has a personal vendetta and must have put together a real bleeding hearts case. The court must have focussed on the 'teacher' and the heartstrings rather than the event, where we know each team would have been involved in.

This is a joke and has potentially ruined a life. Hope the teacher explains vengeance to his students.

And the judge......clearly no consistency. It is probable she has been reprimanded for leniency which has resulted in ridiculous and harsh sentences for hard working members of the public.

What a waste.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bri (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 12:50

Quote:
GP555ios
To answer the above, Ben Staunton himself took this to court. He has a personal vendetta and must have put together a real bleeding hearts case. The court must have focussed on the 'teacher' and the heartstrings rather than the event, where we know each team would have been involved in.
This is a joke and has potentially ruined a life. Hope the teacher explains vengeance to his students.

And the judge......clearly no consistency. It is probable she has been reprimanded for leniency which has resulted in ridiculous and harsh sentences for hard working members of the public


What sentence would you have thought right?


What a waste.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 13:27

OEC - we only know what was reported.

The guy was attackednd seriously hurt, I can't believe that people think he was in the wrong. The victim didn't set the sentence.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: Gareth Redux (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 19:07

There was a very good R4 prog today (Joshua Rozenberg's legal thing) where he discussed sport and law and sporting law. In the context of what I heard today about assault/fighting on the pitch, this man has been very harshly treated and Staunton may have inadvertently created case law that changes sport as a physical contest forever in this country by conflating the two elements of law.I sincerely hope not but if it was just personal revenge then that's sad and potentially very damaging to the sport. I know the name and "prima-Donna" springs to mind, have I got the right guy???

I'm sure the prog will be on iPlayer and it's really worth a listen

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 19:36

I caught that, it was very interesting.

I don't think this case will change anything; you've never been able to attack and injure someone on or off a rugby pitch.

The thing which needs protecting is stopping someone bringing GBH charges against someone who just makes a clumsy tackle and breaks someone's leg. This doesn't seem to come into that category; it was an off the ball fight with the game stopped.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: annie blackthorn (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 19:44

I don't like rugby being a 'hide behind' excuse for an uncontrollable temper.



Francois Louw
Proud to be wearing the BB&W and feared by all who play in the English Prem!

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Jaydeeone (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 20:21

As someone who's encountered Mr BS in my lifetime, I'd say that I agree with what GP555ios said and what I think Brian is alluding to.

I don't think anyone is saying that uncontrolled violence is justified, anything that is off the ball is is very, very difficult to justify. But why did this ends up in court? Why did it end up in Crown Court? Ridiculous.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 20:29

Why wouldn't someone punching you and breaking your jaw end up in court?



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: Jaydeeone (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 20:51

Stuart, if someone punched me and broke my jaw outside a bar, I would try to get charges brought against them. On a rugby field? No. Why didn't he get the police involved about the eye gouge? If someone came up to you in a bar and tried to gouge your eye, wouldn't you press charges?

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 20:55

Well that would be your choice. I don't think that wearing rugby kit gives you carte blanche to attack someone. Have you looked at the pictures? It wasn't part of a 30 man handbags session, or the heat of the moment scrap around a bad tackle. He just ran up to the guy, who was standing alone, and whacked him twice in the face.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: Jaydeeone (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 21:01

I just don't think it warrants the involvement of the law; it sets a potentially dangerous president. It rather strikes me that he has tried to get this guy in as much trouble as possible - as evidenced by him describing the second punch as ten out of ten. Yet he continued to play on and his jaw wasn't later wired up, 'only' cracked. He didn't lose an eye or any teeth. No damage to his facial nerves. The man must be invincible!!! Ten out of ten!?

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Big Ern (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 21:05

... please note the refrerence to gouging in the article linked by Foursticks (entry #3).

There was obviously a lot going on here.

At least one of the sides in question has 'previous' going back years (decades ..?) for intimidatory behaviour on the field of play. I know, I've played in such a game at SECOND TEAM level (against their bl@@dy thirds) for goodness sakes !!!

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 21:07

Dangerous how? We shouldn't mix up injuries caused in the act of playing the game with attacks that happen to take place on a rugby pitch.

We don't know the circumstances of the complaint. If you turn up at the RUH with a broken jaw after being attacked, do they report it or at least ask if you want to report it (I have no idea?



Stuart

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Re: Prison
Posted by: Jaydeeone (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 21:18

With a few exceptions (domestic violence being one where the CPS and the police have a few more powers), it's very difficult to achieve a prosecution without the victims active involvement.

I think we'll have to accept that we disagree on this Stuart. It does raise some interesting issues though in my view.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 21:21

I think the surprise probably mostly comes around the sentence -custodial seems harsh. I'd like to know why the judge did that. He sentencing rules are very tightly defined, but the newspaper report gives no clue.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: chris87 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 21:53

When I was 16, I played a game against a up and coming (age group capped) England winger.

During the game he gave one of our wingers hell, going over and round him all the time, so I got moved onto that wing (I played more like a flanker  then a wing/full back at times).

So he comes towards me, and I hit him hard and square, the type of tackle that puts you backwards and winds you. Now what did this guy do, get straight up and kick me in my head twice and spat on me. I was left with a fractured cheekbone, nose broken in 2places, 1 tooth knocked out and another one in two bits.

What happened to him? Nothing as it was at his home ground, and the ref didn't see it (nor did a linesman yet the crowd all did). To me? I got a yellow card for a missed punch on the guy and a nice trip to the hospital (we got banned from that club I was later told due to the fight after the game and our players targeting him all the time). 

3months later I played my 1st game back, but was scarred s******s that it was going to happen again, I kept going for the rest of season but lost all my confidence so quit playing. 9years later I want to start again, but it still worries me that it may happen.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: marshie10 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 22:26

I think community service will have been way more relevant, and in my opinion that's a maximum. I think fights on the pitch are always going to occur, rugby generally deals with these things by a handshake and a pint or two afterwards. Manu Tuilagi seemed to pretty unfairly give Chris Ashton some, and they hugged it out at the end.

I guess it's an old school way of looking at it, but I do hate PCness/Health and Safety/ and suing.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 23:00

The Ashton/Tuilagi thing wasn't GBH though!



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: GP555ios (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 23:16

I have viewed the pictures and they don't look great....however, 4 still pictures does not tell the story. I know I have had pictures playing where I have ran through someone, but the picture looks like I have been smashed!.....basically, without being there you don't know.

I think we can all agree the sentence is very, very harsh.

The victim must have put a very convincing case together. Which must have been difficult....if the punch was that bad, how could he return to the game after seeking advice from a trained physio?

RFU should have dealt with this, give him a ban, don't ruin his life.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: marshie10 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 23:35

Good point Stuart.

Although had he not broken the jaw with the two punches he wouldn't have gone to jail, right? So he would have still carried out the same actions but would have only received his marching orders from the pitch.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: marshie10 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 23:37

When I was at school, I was at the bottom of a ruck, then as play continued, the bodies left the ruck and as the last opposition player got up, before jogging off he stamped on my arm, breaking my wrist. I didn't know the full extent of the damage at the time, so I carried on and ensured that he got a bit back. But is that GBH also? I'm not too clued up on these things.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: m0rris (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 23:49

....Also was Davey Wilson's jaw not broken in a fight recently? Surely that'd be GBH.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Stuart Anderton (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2012 23:53

Quote:
marshie10
Good point Stuart.
Although had he not broken the jaw with the two punches he wouldn't have gone to jail, right? So he would have still carried out the same actions but would have only received his marching orders from the pitch.

Yes, the broken bone is what elevates it from actual bodily harm or common assault to GBH, and it's very unlikely it would have been custodial on the lesser charge.



Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

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Re: Prison
Posted by: Armchair Fan (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2012 00:04

For the players on ERE - I know there are many smiling smiley

When you step onto the pitch you are implicitly accepting a level of sporting-body sanctioned violence. You will be tackled, rucked, mauled. Some of it might hurt. Some of it might require medical intervention. Some of the stuff might drift outside legality.

So (my genuine, non-leading question) is: at what point would you consider that a line had been crossed? At what point would you no longer consider shaking the hand of your opponent? (Assuming that the wrist that had been stamped on and broken in Marshie's example was not his right hand - that would make shaking hands hard I guess.)

And of course there was this (warning - graphic eye damage.) I don't recall anyone getting prosecuted for it.



_____________________________________________________

Debates play to the emotions, to soundbites, to oratorical flourishes and, all too often, to sheer volume. They may make for good drama, but they do not make for good understanding. - Richard Dawkins

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: marshie10 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2012 00:34

It was the wretched right hand Lee, luckily I'm left handed but not with everything.

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2012 01:58

Quote:
marshie10
It was the wretched right hand Lee, luckily I'm left handed but not with everything.

Too much info m10!



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dOg4Ljp3kh8/Sf89bRrqecI/AAAAAAAAAJY/eJCF1kt4b0E/s200/DON%27T-SHOOT-THE-MESSENGER1.jpg

 
Re: Prison
Posted by: Bri (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2012 06:15

For me it was a act of thuggery,Staunton,knowing him would have been playing the nause all game but that doesn't mean you can then punch commit this sort of violence.
This behaviour is not acceptable on a rugby pitch and their are no excuses.I would have loved the guy to try and do it to me when I was playing,does that make it right of course it doesn't.this thuggery needs to be stamped out of the game at junior level.The level of sentence was wrong,some sort of work in the community would have been better,even maybe working at Mr Stauntons school and other rugby schools in the area as a example.
To ruin the guys life,No.

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