Has any else noticed how much better the Wasps scrum as been of late.Even winning penalties against Saints yesterday.Is this down to a great scrum coach,Trevor Woodman?and I'm sure Dai Youngs input.Must be a area we need to invest in.

It did start out very well. But didn't do them much good in the end!

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Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

I hate to think what Saints scrum will do to ours next week...

More worried about their play in the loose.

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Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

Quote:

OutsideBath
I hate to think what Saints scrum will do to ours next week...

Yep could be painful

ballsout, that statistics in the below link are the reason I think we will see significant changes in the way scrums are either refereed or ruled. I think it will a far less significant and time consuming part of the game, and the get the ball in and out idea will be pushed forward. Hence why the scrummaging prop will be less and less important.

Scrum stats

And yet it wasn't the mess it is now a few years ago. It needs sorting, absolutely, but tell your fantasy prophecy about 'in and out' rugby league style scrums to any tight five forward and they'll laugh.

I think Nathan Catt, Anthony Perenise, Gethin Jenkins, Schalk Brits etc would all like scrums to be 'in and out'.

I disagree.

But well done on finding 4 potential examples to illustrate your point.

Well done for your condescending post, very consistant and in line with your normal posts.

Marshie. Can you please enlighten me as to why you want to make our game more like RL? The very thought horrifies me, it's so one-dimensional IMHO

GR, partly because it would mean Bath would win more games...! The less time spent in the scrum, the better for Bath. I'm almost expectant of a penalty going against us at every scrum.

If we got the ball out quicker and cleaner from the scrums,do you think we could compete with other teams backs?

If the management really think that NH rugby will weaken the role of the scrum to develop more open rugby then their delusions are worse than I feared.
The argument that we don't need a beast of a scrum since it's merely a restart of the game for the important stuff was blown out of the water for all to see in Twickenham.

No I think the management have realised they've recruited some really poor props and they're spinning some bullsh1t to justify that.

The sooner they're offloaded and we get in some real props - not just fat centres - the better for the whole team.

Quote:

marshie10
GR, partly because it would mean Bath would win more games...! The less time spent in the scrum, the better for Bath. I'm almost expectant of a penalty going against us at every scrum.

Wouldn't it be easier for Bath just to sign a decent LHP and a good scrum coach? I hate RL non-scrums.

I think a decent set piece coach would turn our scrum around in no time. Wilson and Mears are not bad scrummagers (certainly when looked at at AP level), likewise Bell should usually be fine.

We're perhaps a touch weak at loosehead. But if Catt wants to be the player he seems to, he should be working with someone.

Likewise I'd have thought that Caldwell and Attwood should be able to do their part.

Anyway, I don't think that the personnel are the issue.

I don't think it's just Bath that think this, it's going to be the "powers that be".

You mean the All-Blacks?

I'd rather watch full fat Rugby League than a emasculated skinny latte form of Rugby Union.

Amen fl, amen. Union with a derated scrum os worse than RL. A PAKE, I interesting, one dimensional shadow of the game it's meant to be. Don't take this the wrong way Marshie but I think you're bang wrong, big time. The laws need to restore the hegemony of the scrum as a platform for attacking rugby. It can be done, it must be done.

I'm on the train to Barrow-in-Furness as we speak (work), you go past the RL ground on the way in, I've never been tempted to enter but I loved watching MSN thirds on sat win with a scrum dominance rhat increased as the game went on allowing the team to score 5 tries. I've slightly conflated there but anyone who's been to Barrow knows I need sympathy!!!

What do you mean be derated? If you mean uncontested then you're only exaggerating a bit, but I don't think we're going there.

I suspect that we'll move to make it less advantageous to have a front row the relies on mass, for example refs are getting stricter on early engagement. I don't see that as a bad thing.

But the scrum isn't about mass, it's about technique and power, it's about how a game pans out over 80+ mins, about advantage all over the pitch, about attritional combat, or have I got it wrong? If tou want it to be merely a restart then please say but rhe scrum defines union IMO and to do it down is anathema to me. I'm due to arrive in Barrow in an hour, perhaps I should give up and watch a different game. The scrum is there for a reason surely, not just to restart the game after a minor infringement

There was a piece by Paul Ackford a couple of weeks ago suggesting (reluctantly) that the rules for professional and amateur rugby may need to diverge a bit. The gist of it - iirc - was that collapsing scrums are infinitely less dangerous for professional props than for amateurs, and therefore, maybe they need to stop obsessing about this, and just let them get on with it a bit more. I think I was nodding in agreement....then again, have never packed down in my life. From the point of view of the laws, there's no particular reason why the professional game shouldn't be different - there are plenty of law variations in rugby union as the game progresses through the age groups. Whether the assessment of the dangers is right, I really don't know personally.

It's not just the dangers - dropping the scrum is just an easy way of neutralising your opponents attack.

Something needs to be done about the inordinate amount of time it sometimes takes to set and reset a problematic scrum.

And I don't think we yet know the long term health effects on professional front rowers of the power of the modern game running through their necks and shoulders, because a 20 year old when the game turned pro might still be playing. But my guess is that it will not be good when they hit 50.

No answers though; the game needs the scrum or it isn't rugby.

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Stuart

Editor of Come On My Lovers

All experienced props drop it,Cole was getting the better of Corbs but in one scrum Corbs won the hit and Cole dropped it,ref reset.then Cole has another chance.

Quote:

TCM2007
And I don't think we yet know the long term health effects on professional front rowers of the power of the modern game running through their necks and shoulders, because a 20 year old when the game turned pro might still be playing. But my guess is that it will not be good when they hit 50.

Don't think you need to wait until they're 50. Look at England's World Cup winning front row, for instance. 2 necks and 1 back.

Ackford: scrum = mess

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Debates play to the emotions, to soundbites, to oratorical flourishes and, all too often, to sheer volume. They may make for good drama, but they do not make for good understanding. - Richard Dawkins

Bath need to front up in the scrum and yes get rid of those who cannot perform anymore for whatever reason!

Giving Flats a THREE year contrcat when he was known to have difficulties getting his arm up was a woeful decision which is going to cost us dear unless Flats can be persuaded to go earlier (which he will not!) or he takes a job in the Championship or a lower league. Henley could do with his talent!

It makes more sense keeping Belly going because at least he can usually be relied upon to hold his own- and help bring on the younger props like KPN.

I still say Wilson is a dud (nut Marshie tells me otherwise) as he is meant to be an International yet never dominates anyone at scrum time.

I would stick with Catt and Beech becasue they are young and will gain in strength and with experience but we still ned a big fierce lump at Loose Head. Look what happend to Saints scrum when they signed Tongahuia.

Also we need a big hard second row who can shove and 'put it aboput a bit'like a young Danny or Brad Thorn or Pape or Thion or the new French 2nd Row Mascieux ??? He is a big boy with form and is young!!

I expect more from our front row than we get week in week out! Without a big ball winning pack, we will never get sufficient clean quick ball for onr backs whoever they are! Look at Exe they rely on the big nasty pack to win the ball, keep the ball and the backs buy the beer and make up the numbers after Mieres has kicked the goals. Simple WINNING (strange word to Bath) rugby!

If everybody is so keen not to depower the scrum, can't we have the hooking contest back? We seem to have a mess of RU scrummaging with RL put-ins. Maybe if the front rows were more engaged in trying to actually win the ball, things might improve. Winning the ball against the head used to be regarded nearly as highly as turnover ball is now, though it is very, very, rarely seen> I still don't understand this "taking the hit" bit, when the law states that there should be no pushing before the ball is put in (if I understand this correctly). This seems contradictory.

Quote:

Bathovalballer
I still say Wilson is a dud (nut Marshie tells me otherwise)

That's because he isn't a dud. Like any other partnership on the pitch the front row has to work as a team and if one part isn't functioning it affects the whole.

In Wilson and Mears we have two thirds of a very good scrummaging front row. But we've lacked a technically proficient LHP all season and this is what's been costing us.

PS Don't call Marshie a nut



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/03/2012 13:17 by Puxonian.

Wilson is a good if not world class scrumager but if the LH is either being pushed around or penalised for not binding, he could be Noriega or Gauret and still struggle.

Quote:

devizes bath fan
Wilson is a good if not world class scrumager but if the LH is either being pushed around or penalised for not binding, he could be Noriega or Gauret and still struggle.

Correct DBF,although Catty did well against a man 3stone a least heavier but the weight told in the end.

Quote:

Brian4455

Correct DBF.

But of course. Catt is making reasonable progress but needs to bulk up.

Quote:

devizes bath fan

Quote:

Brian4455

Correct DBF.

But of course. Catt is making reasonable progress but needs to bulk up.

Nathan is very strong,so im led to believe, might put on a half a stone in the next couple of years but that it.is tec is top draw but will never beat a good big un.

We need flats and wilson for this one

We need flats and wilson for this one

I agree,Flats bulk and experience is needed,it's games like this that make the coaches decision to keep him more plausible as Catt and Beech are still not ready at 24 and 25,next year is massive for both of them.
Of coarse they might start with Beech for his bulk but I expect him to be protected.

Quote:

Bri

Quote:

devizes bath fan

Quote:

Brian4455

Correct DBF.

But of course. Catt is making reasonable progress but needs to bulk up.

Nathan is very strong,so im led to believe, might put on a half a stone in the next couple of years but that it.is tec is top draw but will never beat a good big un.

Hmmmm...Tom Smith?

I see where you are coming from,Tom Smith was a good little un SaintsDuncan but was judge against guys a stone heavier than him.unfortunately things have moved on and now props are all in the 18 1/2 stone Mark and a lot are closer to twenty stone,I don't believe he would have the same impact today where he would be giving away 3-4 stone.

Plus Tom Smith was short and squat, a bit like Thomas Domingo. Catty has more of a flanker's build and I can't see him bulking up much more