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MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 07:53
With the ongoing saga related to rec development I wonder if there is a possibility of Bath making a decision to follow a similar financial model.

Wasps - Worlds richest club?

The club surely can’t have a financial future with a ground capacity of 10,000 let alone additional revenue streams. Is it realistic to have BC funding the club, and what is the financial future of the club should that source cease.

Imagine what we could do with the current set of players and 3x the income. Is it time to leave Bath centre or are we committed to wait and wait?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 08:16
We don't have a capacity of 10k, I think it's close to 14k. But you are right many clubs don't even get 10k consistently so I think it's more a case of there being s big disparity in the game. That said, it's not a new situation.

It's not a case of "if you build it they will come" simply having the stadium is just another cost unless you can fill it. When we build the current plans seem to a be a modest capacity increase capacity. It's more about the facility then the capacity.

An extra income probably wouldn't that much for us in a capped world. Bruce had already invested heavily in our training facilities. Bruce goes, we have to reign in the spending, but I don't think we're talking end of the world.

Wasps have done very well. They've moved well.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 08:35
Point taken on ground capacity, it is just that if we take Toulon as an example you have current richest club coupled with 2 back to back championships.

We could get to a Premier League situation where Sarries, Wasps etc. become a perennial top tier.

Personally I think if it was going to happen it would have occurred a few years ago, can't believe that buying the Ricoh was a surprise. However, business decisions can be ruthless so one never knows.

 
The Oilman
The Oilman (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 09:05
I watched the Wasps game on TV yesterday.
What I saw were masses of empty seats, one end completely empty.
That was for an important game as well.

 
MESSAGES->author
Robbinho (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 09:18
The Ricoh holds over 32,000 - so even with a reported crowd of 18k+, you're going to get lots of empty seats!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 09:58
They've apparently sold out their last home game against Tigers. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the move, it's clearly been a success for Wasps - and playing attractive rugby they're pulling crowds in. The challenge Wasps had in Wycombe was they stopped winning - and hiked the ST prices massively. Crowds dropped through the floor.

They've bought the Ricoh for an absolute knock-down price. There aren't many grounds with the same story. The challenge for them will be to maintain crowds next season (an 18k average would be a success). Given their current team, ditching Goode, adding Gopperth with Lozowski improving, they've definitely got a strong position to build from, possibly just lacking strength in depth a touch at the moment.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 10:06
Attendance 16,712 at the Wasps game yesterday.

However yield is the important thing and I suspect that the ticket prices at the Ricoh are probably lower than at the Rec. Rec from memory has a capacity of 13,349 ('ish)

Also I suspect in the article "apples and pears" are being confused here. They say they have gone from second lowest revenue in the Premiership to very high in Europe. I would imagine that this includes the Hotel and Casino revenue added to their increased gate revenue.

Undoubtedly the acquisition of the Ricoh, an almost brand new stadium for a reported £20m was very good business as it came with a hotel and casino.

The Bond is an interesting call as it will largely replace the borrowings that were taken on with the Stadium which I think come from pre 2009 and so are probably at 5% plus.

Will the 6.5% yield on the bond be serviced? Yes I am pretty sure it will be particularly with the increase in the TV revenue over the next few years.

Will the bond be repaid? Much trickier call it is a seven year bond so will they be able to refinance/repay. This is the big question however I suspect that if the commercial activities perform well, Coventry FC get promotion, the TV money comes through, the premiership is ring fenced then it is entirely possible.

As ever if someone has £100,000 on deposit earning 1% then taking £5,000 and putting it in this bond and then earning 6.5% is not entirely stupid!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 10:09
What would be interesting about the wasps game was a typical ticket price. I have a feeling they are dumping tickets at the moment, which is the right thing to do, but it makes it a bit of an apples vs oranges argument. I could well believe you can get a ticket for wasps at the moment for a fraction of what you can get one at the rec.

My worry had always been that Tiggers, a couple of London clubs, maybe sale if they've any sense, Leeds and bris, now wasps, really could take attedances to the next level because they have a local population and infrastructure that bath just doesn't have. In that respect it makes no odds what we build, we will be in a lower tier. Unless of course we bully bris and move there. The game just hasn't grown like that, so it's probably a misplaced fear.

Sarries only have 10k at the moment, so that doesn't worry me. French rugby is a different beast. I think one day it will come crashing down, it nearly did fairly recently, and it will be very painful for all involved.

 
Tiger in the Bath
Tiger in the Bath (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 10:21
Bath's pulling power is fine - its the ground that isn't. If it had decent facilities to go with the classy rugby on the pitch I don't think 20,000 regularly would be unachievable. At the mo Bath sells out without discounting for the top matches - they could easily sell a lot more and with greater capacity, could offer more seats more reasonably priced too.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 10:34
Agree with TITB on that. I still think a rugby club could pull in spectacular crowds if based in, say, Fulham. There is so much untapped potential in W/SW London. Sale, Leeds etc. don't particularly concern me.

 
BathMan in Oxford
BathMan in Oxford (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 11:08
It does raise an interesting question as to the desired capacity of the "new rec" (if it ever happens). Personally I would much prefer to see a ground with a capacity of, for arguments sake, 16,000 full for every game than a ground of 30,000 capacity that has rows of empty seats for most of the season!

 
miller8
miller8 (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 11:54
I don't think a model that includes moving over 100 miles from your heartland is something that I'd want Bath Rugby to follow. I wonder what the average cost per individual wasps fan is now to follow their club. I suspect to appease the fans and to get reasonable attendance the gate prices were deliberately set low, but how long will that continue?

 
MESSAGES->author
Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 12:03
Aside from the ground move issue, there's no denying that Wasps have stepped up multiple gears on the commercial side of things. Land Rover is a major sponsor, and they're reportedly about the announce a kit deal with Under Armour who overtook Adidas in the States last year to become the second most successful sports brand after Nike.

Similar to Bath in that we've recruited notable international brands like Dyson and Jaffa (and from the sounds of it, Canterbury), but Wasps have made these strides in just a few months.

There was bound to be a drop off from the initial attendances as the novelty wore out for some, but considering they picked up the stadium and the associated businesses for an absolute steal they will be able to keep the ticket prices low while they continue to build their base. For their first home game of the season, in which they faced the champions, they got 6,374 through the gate. Yesterday they got 16,712. They clearly know what they're doing and they're doing it very well.

 
belgraviaboy
belgraviaboy (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 14:43
If anyone is considering investing there is the usual great review of the bond on Fixed Income Investor.

[www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk]

Cheers

BB

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 14:58
I'd agree 20k is achievable for Bath, probably the max though.

As I said: Manchester, Leicester, Leeds, Birmingham, London (probably 2), probably Bristol could sustain 30k+ and we'd be out of it* IF the rugby environment changed fairly dramatically. On the other hand, nothing even close to that sort of change has really looked on the cards since 96 and growth has been pretty moderate, franchising and ringfencing might do it I suppose.

This move to Coventry puts Wasps in a position where the could well compete in that environment.

* The only reason for us to build 30k would be to see Worthy's face, which I accept would be a picture.

 
Hymenoptera
Hymenoptera (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 15:48
Its predicament for you guys, your current ground clearly isnt up to standard for a the modern age in many area's, capacity being one of them....as your a joy to watch and no doubt would surely enjoy another 50% footfall every week.
That said, its a true old school ground in the heart of a city and its a very hard decision to make a move away from that. I love it...but its not fit for purpose.

When not watching my wasps play, the 2nd team I look out for is Bath..never thought I'd say that but you've got a proper brand of rugby that attracts others to watch and you deserve to capatalise on that somehow....

 
miller8
miller8 (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 16:12
I'm sure it's not beyond Bruce's buying power to acquire or build a stadium somewhere miles from Bath to achieve extra capacity, but he knows that its the fans, the city, the location, the history and it's traditions that's makes up the heart and soul of this great club. I'm not sure what Wasps is about anymore maybe they never had roots so perhaps it doesn't matter at all where they are!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 16:43
"your current ground clearly isnt up to standard for a the modern age in many area's, capacity being one of them...."

I'd say our faculties aren't particularly pleasant, but for a place I spend (at most) 10s of hours a year in its not the end of the world. As I said we're around 14k at the moment, that's not that bad capacity wise. So, it could be better, but I don't agree "its not fit for purpose."

"as your a joy to watch and no doubt would surely enjoy another 50% footfall every week."

This year maybe (to an extent last), but over the last 10 years I think we would have seriously struggled had we have a very shiny stadium in the middle of nowhere. Bath is a very small city (80k) surrounded by counties that are very lightly populated and Bristol (who seem to struggle to get people to watch rugby IN their own city).

"you deserve to capatalise on that somehow...."

See season ticket thread, smallish ground, very high prices. I suppose that is the flip side of demographics, lightly populated, but pretty affluent.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 16:59
The ground and the whole experience is so much better than it was say 5 years ago. I cant think of a nicer area in a stadium to have a beer in than the open area where the Outside Half is, if its a nice day that is.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 17:08
Quote:
DanWiley
"your current ground clearly isnt up to standard for a the modern age in many area's, capacity being one of them...."
I'd say our faculties aren't particularly pleasant, but for a place I spend (at most) 10s of hours a year in its not the end of the world. As I said we're around 14k at the moment, that's not that bad capacity wise. So, it could be better, but I don't agree "its not fit for purpose."


Fit for purpose is a bit emotive, but we have to accept facilities are ready for an upgrade!

just because the time spent at the ground is limited doesn't me we have to rough it! Lets be honest Farleigh house is our training facility and the ground doesn't match.

Clearly an outsiders opinion of our ground is that it is not up to it.

Another thread on the forum complains of the cost of ST's, personally I don't mind paying if I am getting a good product/service.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 17:22
"we have to accept facilities are ready for an upgrade!"

An upgrade would be great. I don't see it as an imperative though. I'd rather we got it right than make a mistake. I think we are moving, but doing it right will take a very long time though.

Out of interest, what is it that bothers you so much?

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 17:46
Doesn't really bother me as such and I mirror your concern about getting it right.

There are enormous amounts of money in sport via TV rights, those well placed will reap the benefits. If you draw an analogy with Toulon, the money has clearly brought success.

Living in Cardiff where revenue for the regions is an issue, I feel that sitting on a ground capacity of 14,000. (I know we are not, but for the sake of the argument), would be a mistake.

If Wasps did become the richest club in the world and reaped regular success as a result, then we would look a bit daft.

I don't think BC is that financially naive, but I am interested in the thoughts of the forum.

 
MESSAGES->author
trikidiki (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 19:20
I think no-one would disagree that we need improved facilities. The club want it as much as the fans and are doing everything possible to attain it while maintaining the ground at the Rec where the majority want it to be.

I suspect Bath has a much larger geographic catchment area than other clubs. I travel up from near Southampton and know there are tons more that do the same, plus many travelling up from Devon and Cornwall and down from 'he smoke'.

I don't think Toulon's success comes directly from "having" lots of money, rather they are allowed to spend lots of money.

Just think though, with a stadium the size of the Ricoh we need only use every other row so people could come and go without disrupting others' view.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
27 April, 2015 19:24
I made this point when the Ricoh move was first announced by Wasps. There were only thousand or so STH at High Wycombe. However next season thanks to their community and marketing teams, they have already attracted interest of nearly treble their old STH number.

I live on the Gloucs/Oxfordshire/Warks border and I see much more of Wasps marketing than Gloucester, London Welsh, Wuss or Leicester.

As for ticket prices, I think they are between £15-35 for an adult.
Plus the fan catering, entertainment and facilities are excellent. There is also a new train station opening up to cater for the stadium too.

If Wasps keep winning and signing big players (rumour of an All Black joining after the RWC) then I can only see Wasps being a major force in Europe again



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 08:45
I think it is way too early to buy the Wasps story, yes they have made a good start in the stadium attendances but I have yet to see some emergence of a superpower!

a) Failing rugby club bought by millionaire of average means (~£30mm proceeds from sale of insurance co).
b) Rugby club had a £5mm cash outflow in 2014
c) Rugby club purchases loss making Coventry Arena
d) Club makes an excellent start with strong attendances
e) Club announces retail bond designed to pay back existing debt of shareholder and Coventry City

Yes the arena is a good thing from them but is it a panacea? The retail bond just allows the club to pay back Coventry City and allow Richardson to get some of his loan back.

If Wasps have a bad season will attendances stick? What pricing are they charging in the stadium etc.....

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 09:56
"I suspect Bath has a much larger geographic catchment area than other clubs"

It would be interesting to know if that's true, I think we do have plenty of traveling fans, I suspect other clubs do as well though. At any rate, I can't see why we would really have more than others?

£15 min is a fraction of what we charge, so only looking at the attendance is rather misleading. I suspect they give away a fair few as well.

 
MESSAGES->author
trikidiki (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 10:38
Quote:
DanWiley
"I suspect Bath has a much larger geographic catchment area than other clubs"
.........At any rate, I can't see why we would really have more than others?



The nearest Premiership club for most of Somerset, Wiltshire, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall, until Exeter were promoted but we still have an indiginous following from the 'deep south'. They even come over Offa's Dyke.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/04/2015 10:39 by trikidiki.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 10:51
I think they've had a lot of BOGOFs.

 
DaveOfTrow
GrumpyDave (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 13:14
Its an interesting question: just how much potential is there really to grow the club game in this country? Personally, I'm inclined to think not much.

RL has been trying it for years and whilst we may get all sniffy about ours being the better version of the game (cos it is), there's no denying that RL is much more accessible for yer average punter to understand. They tried everything, franchises here and there, games going out on the road (i seem to recall one season them putting a couple of Super League games out to Gateshead, which were watched by one man and his dog on one occassion and one dog and his man on the other), but to no avail. Sarries tried that in Brussels - any passing Sarries, genuine question: did that game achieve anything in terms in growing the fan base or corporate clientele, or whatever else it was supposed to do?

Sarries/Quins are pretty good at manufacturing the one-off big show games at Twickers/Wemberly, but in between I'm often struck by the banks of empty seats at the Stoop/Allianz. They're in a conurbation of a gezillion people, 7th or 8th biggest french city by population (or whatever it is), surrounded by hundreds of thousands of Kiwis, Boers and Aussies, next door to HQ in Quins' case - a massive ready made audience, you'd have thought - and yet they still cant seem to fill a couple of stadia of 10-15000 on a regular basis.

Elsewhere, 20,000 feels a bit optimistic for us, in the hotbed of RU that Brizzle claims to be they've never been able to sustain big crowds, the Euro Cup final looks like being played out in a half filled Twickers and support for welsh rugby is dying on its ar5e, in large part because of the allure of premiership football.

I think the last point is key. Personally, though I once watched an exciting game (Bradford City vs Norwich, Cup Replay, 2-4 after ET), IMHO the vast majority of games of football consist of 90-minutes-of-not-much-happening. However, the masses love it and I cant ever see a time when other sports will be able to make much of a dent in that dominance. In Wasps case, if the by-product of their project is Coventry City doing well the rugby could easily find itself losing support to the footy, rather than growing it. Sure, they might still be able to finance a cracking Rugby team, but we'll have yet another club running out to a half-empty tin shed.

I dont relish yet another out of town one of those on the away circuit - the crack for me is "the match day experience" in and out of the ground, which in my book goes far beyond providing posh seats and loos (though a roof would be good) - but it will be interesting to see where the Wasps experiment ends up. How long do we give them before we judge?

 
Raggs
Raggs (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 14:06
I think you're underestimating the potential effect of the RWC. People are drawn to club rugby through the international game. After getting a large fix of rugby, they'll hopefully want to get their fix at club level after.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 14:18
I'm not sure about that, I know a lot of people who religiously watch the 6 nations, but they don't know the first thing about club rugby. I don't think that's the same for football, maybe because of how pervasive it is.

Having the WC here might make a difference, I don't really know how much visibility a world cup gets if you don't follow rugby. For the football world cup regardless of where it is you cant avoid it.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 14:56
Recently Mark McCafferty mentioned wen talking about expanding the premiership,

“We are looking at that,” he said. “The game is growing significantly, and that rate of growth is such that we are looking at plans for expansion on a number of fronts. The size and competition of the league is one of them.

I take GrumpyDave's point about Welsh rugby and the lack of support, however, I don't think it mirrors the English game, Flats mentioned on the "ITV Rugby highlights program" growth was about 4-5% in the prem.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 15:21
Growth of what?

TV figures? Numbers at games? I'd be surprised if there wasn't a one off growth associated with BT giving it away. In terms of attendance we've seen very slow growth over the last decade and it doesn't seem to have changed this year.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 15:50
Doesn't it skew? Clubs like Tigers, Quins, Saints, Us, Glaws, Ex have seen steady increases in attendance through capacity, Irish, Wasps, Sarries, Sale, Newcastle have seen declines (although Wasps and to a less extent Sarries will probably change that).

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 16:03
Quote:
DanWiley
Growth of what?
TV figures? Numbers at games? I'd be surprised if there wasn't a one off growth associated with BT giving it away. In terms of attendance we've seen very slow growth over the last decade and it doesn't seem to have changed this year.

Could always ask Mr McCafferty ! If he is CEO of the premiership I doubt its BT subscription!

I'd be interested in figures relating to growth, do you have any? I couldn't find them. Wouldn't the fact that there is even talk of adding 2 teams to the prem indicate growth, however it is defined.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 16:47
Attendance info is easy enough to get from the Aviva premiership site, just look at the results/fixtures. Of you are lucky statbunker may have put them all in a nice table.

The only way I can see them adding two teams is of they dump the lv. That may well be on the cards, but it would be dropping fixtures and teams from the season, and adding some relativity small teams, so I'm not sure it is growth. In terms of money coming into the ap I'd have thought it would be pretty nugatory.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 16:49
I think if we had a 16,000 capacity with designed in growth up to 18,000 that would suit us fine.

Bear in mind that ticket sales are only but a component of a Club's revenue. TV will be a very material number once the next contract is underway.

 
MESSAGES->author
BennyP (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 17:11
Quote:
belgraviaboy
If anyone is considering investing there is the usual great review of the bond on Fixed Income Investor.
[www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk]

Cheers

BB

Might help if they could actually spell...

Quote:
Fixed Income Investor
At their previous venue Adams Park at High Wyckham, where they were tenants of Wyckham Wanderers, Wasps was loss making.


http://cdn.meme.am/instances/37933775.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/04/2015 17:12 by BennyP.

 
Petros
Petros (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
28 April, 2015 18:08
At Adams Park Wasps got 5% of the take from catering and beer, now its 100%!

 
Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 13:43
Quote:
DanWiley
Growth of what?
TV figures? Numbers at games? I'd be surprised if there wasn't a one off growth associated with BT giving it away. In terms of attendance we've seen very slow growth over the last decade and it doesn't seem to have changed this year.

This idea of massive historic growth does not pass scrutiny. If you look at premiership attendances over the last 10 years then the growth rate is ~3% CAGR.

Turnover since 2007 across the 9 clubs who have almost consistently been in the premiership for that time has grown by ~4% CAGR.

The one area where growth has been impressive is at the operating loss level of the same 9 clubs which is a much healthier ~9% CAGR. Back in 2007 those clubs lost a paltry £6.6m at an operating level, now it is a much more striking -£17mm.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 14:10
NiD, how does attendance breakdown if you compare the following groups:

Bath
Quins
Tigers
Saints
Glaws
Ex

vs

Sale
Irish
Newcastle
Wasps
Sarries

I.e. what's the spread we're looking at?

 
Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 15:34
Quote:
hasta
NiD, how does attendance breakdown if you compare the following groups:
Bath
Quins
Tigers
Saints
Glaws
Ex

vs

Sale
Irish
Newcastle
Wasps
Sarries

I.e. what's the spread we're looking at?

Bath 04/5 115,125 13/14 130,897 1% CAGR
Quins 04/5 93,305 13/14 207,263 9% CAGR
Tigers 04/5 184,683 13/14 251,377 3% CAGR
Saints 04/5 130,674 13/14 157,501 2% CAGR
Gloucs 04/5 136,700 13/14 154,160 1% CAGR

Sale 04/5 91,827 13/14 69,851 -5% CAGR
Irish 04/5 103,110 13/14 155,056 5% CAGR
Newcastle 04/5 87,473 13/14 56,491 -5% CAGR
Wasps 04/5 105,068 13/14 153,691 5% CAGR
Sarries 04/5 73,084 13/14 179,651 11% CAGR

I have excluded Exeter as they only joined the premiership in 2010. The Wasps and Irish numbers are volatile depending as to whether they are hosting the double header but Sarries and Quins are always high.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 16:29
Yeah, would need to exclude LDH numbers to get a more comparable view. Wembley/Twick games too.

Shows the value of compound interest I guess! An overall growth comparison:

Tigers 04/5 184,683 13/14 251,377 36% growth
Saints 04/5 130,674 13/14 157,501 21% growth
Bath 04/5 115,125 13/14 130,897 13% growth
Gloucs 04/5 136,700 13/14 154,160 13% growth
Sale 04/5 91,827 13/14 69,851 24% decline
Newcastle 04/5 87,473 13/14 56,491 35% decline

------------------------------------------------

Sarries 04/5 73,084 13/14 179,651 146% growth
Quins 04/5 93,305 13/14 207,263 122% growth
Irish 04/5 103,110 13/14 155,056 50% growth
Wasps 04/5 105,068 13/14 153,691 46% growth

Comparing the massive benefit to numbers of the LDH/Big Games it shows that Wasps/Irish really are in as much trouble as Sale/Newcastle. Wasps could pull out of it with the Ricoh.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 17:05
Okay so CAGR is, Compound Annual Growth Rate but what is LDH, google says it is Lactate Dehydrogenase, but that doesn't work !

Fascinating, so in summary over the past 9 years Wasps have seen a 46% increase in attendance.
and Newcastle a 35% decrease.

Any idea what the trend might be for Wales for example and especially France? I appreciate that numbers don't relate to profitability but seeing as most football revenue comes from TV rights does that make rugby more saleable?

If so perhaps we don't need a bigger ground, just a virtual Rec.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 17:35
London Double Header.

 
Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 19:08
A few facts about Wasps' attendances might be helpful.

Firstly, they were not the home team in this season's LDH.

With every ticket sold for the Leicester game (32,600), their total home attendance for the season will be 165,136. That's an average of just over 15,000. Remove the four games at Adams Park (total attendance 25,181) and you have 140,000 ( near as makes no difference) in seven games.

They now keep the matchday food and drink profits. Throw in regular casino/hotel/conference/concert revenue and things look even better.

Another statistic. For the final game of last season, at Adams Park, they sold 223 corporate packages. For the Tigers game, they have already sold over 2,000 and only a handful are left.

 
Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 19:32
Quote:
Beer Today, More Tomorrow
A few facts about Wasps' attendances might be helpful.
Firstly, they were not the home team in this season's LDH.

With every ticket sold for the Leicester game (32,600), their total home attendance for the season will be 165,136. That's an average of just over 15,000. Remove the four games at Adams Park (total attendance 25,181) and you have 140,000 ( near as makes no difference) in seven games.

They now keep the matchday food and drink profits. Throw in regular casino/hotel/conference/concert revenue and things look even better.

Another statistic. For the final game of last season, at Adams Park, they sold 223 corporate packages. For the Tigers game, they have already sold over 2,000 and only a handful are left.

I don't think this thread is ever an anti-wasps thread and absolutely the Ricoh move makes commercial sense for whoever is the owner of Wasps and therefore the club itself from a commercial perspective. Also clearing the Close Brothers & Coventry City debt makes sense.

However I would struggle to argue that replacing Richardsons interest free loan to Wasps with one that pays a 6.5% semi-annual coupon makes any sense for anybody but Richardson.

I hope Wasps do well (but always wish they had been able to remain close to their London roots) but there is the potential situation that they have a bad couple of seasons and their Coventry support dries up leaving the requirement to refi the debt with very few options. I hope it works out but fans should be aware this is not without risk to the club.

Personally, I don't think Richardson is rich enough to carry the club for long and unless the stadium does significantly better than washing its face then Wasps cannot afford any real downturn to service and refi the debt. This is a public debt instrument which cannot be amended or extended .... it is not the same as a rich owner waiting patiently for a few more years until he gets paid back.

Genuinely good luck to you but caveat emptor as well .... a smidgeon of scepticism is often in order.

 
Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
29 April, 2015 20:27
You make some valid points, but the world would be a terrible place, if scepticism always prevailed.


I don't see this as an anti-Wasps thread - far from it - but all the stuff about attendances is flawed, because it is based on the days when we were getting poxy crowds at a ground where we were tenants and keeping only a tiny percentage of matchday food and drink takings.

It's also worth commenting on the "big stadium" home matches. Last year's Stinger game (against Gloucester, at Twickenham) was attended by just under 40,000 - but we made a loss.

In contrast, the first game at the Ricoh (Irish, 28,254 crowd) grossed around £600,000. That was one of the games for which 3-4,000 freebies were issued.

The Tigers game, at the end of next week, will probably bring in more than we could have made in an entire season at Adams Park - and minimal freebies. 2000+ hospitality packages alone (at £86 a head) is serious money. I think we could be forgiven for allowing ourselves a certain amount of measured optimism.

 
Raggs
Raggs (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
30 April, 2015 07:06
Quote:
Never In Doubt
However I would struggle to argue that replacing Richardsons interest free loan to Wasps with one that pays a 6.5% semi-annual coupon makes any sense for anybody but Richardson.

Quote:
Personally, I don't think Richardson is rich enough to carry the club for long...

This. He's already gifted another 10M, so was all in for 30M in one way or another. Don't begrudge him taking 10M back in the slightest.

Irish 600k was ticket revenue alone, not F&B etc. Christ knows what the Tigers game will bring.

I suspect that we'll need just the Saints and Tigers games to see us coming close to what we could have been hoping for from Adams park (maybe a little more, but not much).

 
Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
30 April, 2015 08:15
Quote:
Beer Today, More Tomorrow
You make some valid points, but the world would be a terrible place, if scepticism always prevailed.

I don't see this as an anti-Wasps thread - far from it - but all the stuff about attendances is flawed, because it is based on the days when we were getting poxy crowds at a ground where we were tenants and keeping only a tiny percentage of matchday food and drink takings.

It's also worth commenting on the "big stadium" home matches. Last year's Stinger game (against Gloucester, at Twickenham) was attended by just under 40,000 - but we made a loss.

In contrast, the first game at the Ricoh (Irish, 28,254 crowd) grossed around £600,000. That was one of the games for which 3-4,000 freebies were issued.

The Tigers game, at the end of next week, will probably bring in more than we could have made in an entire season at Adams Park - and minimal freebies. 2000+ hospitality packages alone (at £86 a head) is serious money. I think we could be forgiven for allowing ourselves a certain amount of measured optimism.

In truth, there is nothing flawed about the attendance data; it is just data showing what has happened. Wasps attendance growth was impressive (I imagine due to big games at Wembley). The commercial problem was that it was at very low margins and lead to significant cash outflows.

My personal opinion, is the clubs that are financially the most robust are those with the strongest fan loyalty and deepest roots. If on top of that you can build a good multi-purpose arena and a strong backer or capital structure then you have a very successful structure.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
30 April, 2015 09:04
The figures above are all based on last season though, right? I think everyone's saying that the Ricoh is a great move for Wasps - and the bond seems to make implicit sense to pay off higher rate debt and individual exposure (no judgement on if it's the right rate or not). Crowds this season at the Ricoh are a roaring success, but I'd look to make a judgement call on success after end next season or so. Given Wasps keep food and drink revenues, BOGOFs aren't a major problem (I doubt Sarries keep them at Wembley). If they can average 18k next season it's a good sign - and given their upward direction in terms of on field success, plus general interest that should be stimulated by the RWC I think that's absolutely achievable.

 
Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
30 April, 2015 10:02
Quote:
Never In Doubt
In truth, there is nothing flawed about the attendance data; it is just data showing what has happened. Wasps attendance growth was impressive (I imagine due to big games at Wembley).

Wasps have never hosted a big game at Wembley!

 
Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
30 April, 2015 10:25
Quote:
Beer Today, More Tomorrow
Quote:
Never In Doubt
In truth, there is nothing flawed about the attendance data; it is just data showing what has happened. Wasps attendance growth was impressive (I imagine due to big games at Wembley).

Wasps have never hosted a big game at Wembley!

Touche! .... all those trouncings we gave you on St Georges Day were at Twickenham!

 
dixiewasp
dixiewasp (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
02 May, 2015 10:21
I'v been following your discussions on Wasps extraordinary change of fortune
thank you for your interest.

Wasps have moved from near extinction, DiR buying match tape/players paid late
to an overwhelming new era at the Ricoh now up and running, in just five months.

Derek Richardson has provided the seed-corn, with the aim of the rugby club
becoming a profitable business with two-thirds income coming from the Arena
activities and the remaining third from rugby.

I've added attachments - for anyone curious to know/see/hear a little more.

DMail : DoR buys tape/players paid late October 2014
Wasps Thriving at the Ricoh Arena [video x 3] 8 April 2015
Planned improvements at the Ricoh Arena - 9 April 2015 [video]
Wasps and the Ricoh Arena - 23 April 2015 - [video]
Wasps and the Ricoh - [video] 28 April 2015



dixiewasp



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2015 18:04 by dixiewasp.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
03 May, 2015 18:53
Ive been to the Ricoh as a neutral a few times now and think its excellent.

Clearly its no Recreation Ground in terms of location, but its better than the majority of stadiums Ive been to in the Prem in terms of fan experience. It will only get better once their marketing teams bed in and realise the full potential.

As I said earlier, its not just a fan base in Coventry. Wasps have attracted fans from B'ham, Oxfordshire and down through Warwick-Stratford and into the North Cotswolds. Its an area that hasnt had much focus from other Clubs.



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
03 May, 2015 21:54
On the basis of Rampant's comments and Dixiewasp's links I have had a deeper look into the set up.

Perhaps I've been suckered by the marketing but its hard to imagine this set up not coming out in the black.

If it does more than that and is significantly profitable, then its hard to believe that Wasps will be significant force in the AP again. As mentioned on the Toulon Clermont thread by the 'The Oilman', "Money talks".

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
03 May, 2015 22:12
I still think Wasps are a few players short. They're still missing a quality 10 and/or 12. Lozowski might grow into it, not totally sure about Gopperth, he's a step up from Goode, but is he really top rate? Their strength in depth could do with some work too, but their first choice pack is excellent.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
04 May, 2015 13:07
An alternative view is that Wasps PLC simply come to see themselves as a stadium management company with Wasps as one, wholly owned, tenant and a small part of their revenue stream. They will doubtless try to lure Coventry City back.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
05 May, 2015 10:37
Coventry City are already a tenants of the Ricoh Stuart..



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
05 May, 2015 11:48
Coventry City have three seasons left on their tenancy agreement after this one. Their owners are looking to build a new stadium.

 
Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
05 May, 2015 14:06
Coventry City's owners have been talking about building a new stadium for several years. The view of the club's supporters is that the chances of that ever becoming a reality are on a par with simultaneously finding Elvis on the moon, seeing Ann Widdecombe becoming a lap dancer and Prince Harry becoming a monk and George W.Bush joining MENSA.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
05 May, 2015 15:22
Warwickshire Council have prioritised building a stadium for Leamington Spa FC ahead of Coventry City.



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
05 May, 2015 15:28
Mmm.. first 3 are possibilities but George W.Bush joining MENSA, obviously that will never happen (Sm154)

 
dixiewasp
dixiewasp (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
05 May, 2015 17:15
Wasps - more than a rugby club
[www.wasps.co.uk]

Having seen five senior players sign up for Newcastle within days of rugby
going profession. Chris Wright rescued Wasps buying them and QPR creating
Loftus Road plc. As QPR dragged the plc down, Wasps FC ground/clubhouse
of 70 years was sold leaving the amateurs homeless, and professionals without
a training ground. Then when QPR chose to share their stadium with Fulham
FC as they redeveloped Craven Cottage - Wasps had months to find a venue,
moving to High Wycombe for games, and training a Twyford Avenue bought by
Wasps FC [the amateurs] when QPR went into administration. Just a year ago
DiR Dai Young was buying players tape from his own pocket. It has been an
incredible roller-coaster - with global brands now competing to become Wasps
partners - in the lastest chapter in the extraordinary story of our Club.



dixiewasp

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 15:44
Bump:- (Sm60)

Well here we are two years later and Wasps are top of the AP with a crowd of over 30,000 watching them stick it to Sarries 2nd XV at the weekend. The S/f v Tigers could/should attract an even bigger crowd and I for one wish them well. A bold move by their owners seems to have paid off handsomely in only the 2nd season in Coventry, and they are assembling a squad to rival the Fez heads. Fortune favours the brave etc. Are there any financially informed Wasps fans out there who can add more background? Bath lost more than £1mn again this season - thank you Bruce for your continued support - how have Wasps performed?



Adopted players: 2017 D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 16:08
until they get kicked out / pay through the nose of course.

[www.coventrytelegraph.net]

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 16:14
Quote:
BathMatt53
until they get kicked out / pay through the nose of course.
[www.coventrytelegraph.net]
My understanding is that Wasps are the owners, and Coventry City the tennants - so it's doubtful that Coventry City will kick out Wasps


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD


Beno Obano - 2016-17 adoptee
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=117

 
incastrowetrust
Ayerza wannabe (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 16:43
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Bump:- (Sm60)
Well here we are two years later and Wasps are top of the AP with a crowd of over 30,000 watching them stick it to Sarries 2nd XV at the weekend. The S/f v Tigers could/should attract an even bigger crowd and I for one wish them well. A bold move by their owners seems to have paid off handsomely in only the 2nd season in Coventry, and they are assembling a squad to rival the Fez heads. Fortune favours the brave etc. Are there any financially informed Wasps fans out there who can add more background? Bath lost more than £1mn again this season - thank you Bruce for your continued support - how have Wasps performed?

You know wasps still made a loss aswell?

I mean they is clearly a lot of potential in the market and promise is showing early doors but it will be a while before anyone can really say if the move is a financial success and the club can support itself.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 16:48
[www.coventrytelegraph.net]

Lots of numbers in this article.
Wasps bought the Ricoh at a knockdown price from Coventry City Council who were desperate to unload it.
They then valued it at a much higher price (£48.5m) which enabled them to borrow £35m in a bond scheme. Some of that was used to pay off the ground purchase. The rest is used to fund their current splurge on players etc. The problem, if there is one, is that the bonds are expensive (6.5% pa, i.e. £2.3m a year in interest payments alone) and are repayable in 2022. The club clearly won't have made £46m in profits (£11m interest plus £35m capital) by 2022, so will have to refinance.

So it's all a bit of a House of Cards. If the arena, hotel and team all keep performing, it might all stay up, but it might not.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 16:53
Wasps averaged 18k this season. Nice, but not worth going to Coventry for. Even for their semi you can get category 4 tickets for £19 and cat 1 for £45. I believe our cat 1s are up to £70 and I've not been able to get a ticket for £19 for a long while.

As far as ripping yourself away from you home can be, it has been a good move for them. That doesn't mean it would be a good one for us.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 17:54
Provided they're paying the coupon, I can't see any problem refinancing.

Two of Wasps issues in Wycombe were a. they stopped winning and attendances dropped and b. they responded to this by hiking season ticket prices... leading to attendances dropping further.

They've done well (very well!) so far in Coventry. It remains to be seen how 'sticky' that support is.

 
gloucesterwatcher
gloucesterwatcher (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 20:38
If we go the way of Football?

Take the “political-and other” language out of this and ?

[www.irishtimes.com]

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
08 May, 2017 21:20
Wasps are a brand. The likes of LBND bleat on about 'once a wasp...' but in reality its a sham. Survival at any cost - move, change your name whatever it takes. Coventry is not Sudbury. The other Premiership clubs agreed the move out of self interest. Here is where rugby can learn from football - where is the equivalent of AFC Wimbledon? I will never go to the Ricoh to watch in the same way I would not have followed a Bath/Bristol club which was mooted before Elvis scored that try. There has been mismanagement in the championship but if you can reinvent yourself to survive its not a meritocracy.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
09 May, 2017 09:32
Quote:
Trawling
Wasps are a brand. The likes of LBND bleat on about 'once a wasp...' but in reality its a sham. Survival at any cost - move, change your name whatever it takes. Coventry is not Sudbury. The other Premiership clubs agreed the move out of self interest. Here is where rugby can learn from football - where is the equivalent of AFC Wimbledon? I will never go to the Ricoh to watch in the same way I would not have followed a Bath/Bristol club which was mooted before Elvis scored that try. There has been mismanagement in the championship but if you can reinvent yourself to survive its not a meritocracy.

Did you go to Wycombe? That's not Sudbury. Did you go to Loftus Road? Also not Sudbury.

Wasps stopped playing in Sudbury 20 years ago. Well, the professional side did. If you want to follow an AFC Wimbledon type team you can. The amateur Wasps still play in Sudbury and I think tend to do pretty well. But I can't imagine them climbing the leagues to Championship and beyond anytime soon.

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
09 May, 2017 20:55
So here's the thing Trev. I support a club not a team, that's the point. Wasps have lost that. Sarries moves have all kept them close to their roots. Loftus Rd was similar. Wycombe was a stretch but accompanied by the London tag. The reality was Wasps were struggling on and off the pitch to survive and someone's money bought them a new identity. Its not a tale of heroic survival, its a con.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
10 May, 2017 01:13
Trawling, which club do you support that hasn't moved?

Not Bath as the club started in North Parade then moved to Claverton Down, Lambridge Meadows, Taylor's Field and Henrietta Park, then the Rec..

Wasps move to Coventry is probably the most mature, educated, professional move since Exeter built their own Academy and moved to Sandy Park.

I live in the North Cotswolds and the buzz (excuse pun) around Warwickshire is incredible!
Their reach comes down to Stow, east to Oxford and north to B'ham. They have fully engaged the community to build Warwickshire's "club"

Plus the emails I get from the club tell me that Rhianna and various other bigs acts are at the Ricoh..which fund the players, academy and community work that Wasps leading the way with



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
10 May, 2017 07:47
So we are pretending that moving around a city is the same as moving a hundred miles? There are sports where teams are franchises and this happens all the time. Last time I checked rugby union wasn't one of them.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
10 May, 2017 22:56
Erm....Richmond, Quins, Saracens, Wasps, London Irish, Sale have all moved for example..

PS Wycombe to the Ricoh is only 82miles not "hundreds" (Sm6)



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
11 May, 2017 08:15
Rampant- when did Quins move? Not in the professional era.

PG

 
Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
11 May, 2017 08:27
Technically, Quins moved around 1990.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
11 May, 2017 09:34
They moved to the Stoop - where they still play - in 1963.
Before that they used Twickenham for home games: hardly comparable with the wanderings of Wasps or Saracens!


PG

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
11 May, 2017 09:48
Right, last post on this. The other clubs and the Wasps supporters accepted the move and frankly missing out on my hard earned for a ticket once a season is not going to keep them awake at night.

All premiership clubs are expected to partner with local schools and clubs and you will find that Wasps had a similar connection with its previous 'local' community. I am glad they are doing a good job.I discovered that a lot of the lads in the age group team I coached rarely if ever watched rugby and struggled for example to name a favourite player in their position. That would be unthinkable in football.

I also remember the bizarre outcome from the Richmond debacle and how London Irish ended up with their badge and that of London Scottish on their kit. So the Premiership have previous when it comes to accepting things which would not be accepted in other leagues.

But...finding a football club who had been sufficiently mismanaged that the stadium was available to purchase as a model? No connection between Wasps and Coventry and its only 82 miles? No problem. What about Portsmouth, or Blackpool? The precise distance is not the issue it's moving the team to somewhere with no connection in order to survive.

I also understand that Wasps have tried other solutions. The way that some of this is described is also part of the issue for me. The former British Gas sports ground in Acton, for example is described as though it were Hackney marshes. That part of London used to be littered with corporate sports facilities - London Underground just down the road towards the Chiswick Roundabout, Glaxo in Greenford, Barclays in Ealing, the Civil Service in Chiswick for example. I played cricket at all of them, including the one in Acton and although the buildings needed some investment, I suspect it was bigger and more convenient than the training facilities at a lot of other premiership clubs at the time. It is also less than two and a half miles from Loftus Road where they played at the time. It's also about 25 miles from High Wycombe. Where do people think the likes of Chelsea train? It's not in Sloane Square, it's Cobham, 20 miles away from Chelsea.

Like I said before, I understand why it happened and clearly it has had a number of benefits but I simply don't think it should have been allowed to go ahead.

 
Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
11 May, 2017 15:09
Quins acquired the Stoop in 1963, but continued to play some home games at Twickenham until around 1990. The Stoop began as their training ground and clubhouse.They were still playing all home games at HQ until the late 70s and early 80s, with just a handful of games over the road - often on the morning of internationals. By around 1990, they stopped playing at Twickenham. I know it could hardly be called a move, but I did say 'technically'.(Sm13)

Trawling: here is an example of some of the community work Wasps are doing. [url=http://[www.youtube.com]]WASPS COMMUNITY[/url]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2017 15:30 by Beer Today, More Tomorrow.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
11 May, 2017 22:13
PG - I never said Quins moved in the professional era, not sure why that counts. They were Hampstead RFC before moving South.

Trawlling - My point on Richmond was they moved from Richmond to Reading. Irish took up the contract to play there on request of the RFU when the merger occurred.


I would argue that a club with a town/city name (Exeter, Bath or Northampton) would struggle to move outside their existing catchment area; especially if you have "Welsh" after your name. However Wasps, Saracens Harlequins wouldn't as much supported by a great community-marketing dept.

Both Saracens and Wasps have by the far leaps and bounds the best in the Premiership in that dept.Both feel like they have always been part of the community in their "new" homes



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/chilliefish/Rugby2-2-1.jpg

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
12 May, 2017 08:35
There's a fair amount of "hair splitting" going on here over Harlequins - who were invited by the RFU in 1906 to play at Twickenham and have played in that part of London ever since.

To "move" half a mile or less across the A316 cannot be compared to the journeys Wasps have taken -from Sudbury to Loftus Road to High Wycombe to Coventry.


PG

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
12 May, 2017 09:00
Quote:
P G Tips
There's a fair amount of "hair splitting" going on here over Harlequins - who were invited by the RFU in 1906 to play at Twickenham and have played in that part of London ever since.
To "move" half a mile or less across the A316 cannot be compared to the journeys Wasps have taken -from Sudbury to Loftus Road to High Wycombe to Coventry.


PG

Quite, next thing we know someone will claim Bath is moving grounds by shifting their pitch 1.5m over the summer.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: Have Wasps pulled of a financial sting?
12 May, 2017 09:15
(Sm22)


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