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BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 February, 2017 21:50
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
The NHS is indeed an infinite money pit. But to suggest that nothing can be done to improve it because it can never be made perfect is a counsel of despair and plainly nonsense.

Unsurprisingly I completely disagree.

Look back at the original 1948 charter. The NHS was originally intended as a safety net, not a universal service. And it was specifically designed to make ill people better. Not provide cosmetic surgery, fertility treatment and gender reassignment, for example.

It needs to go back to its original remit.

What you, in your normal Daily Mail populist manner, deem to be "cosmetic surgery, fertility treatment and gender reassignment" can be life crippling conditions to those affected. Exactly what the NHS was designed for IMHO

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 February, 2017 22:03
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
The NHS is indeed an infinite money pit. But to suggest that nothing can be done to improve it because it can never be made perfect is a counsel of despair and plainly nonsense.

Unsurprisingly I completely disagree.

Look back at the original 1948 charter. The NHS was originally intended as a safety net, not a universal service. And it was specifically designed to make ill people better. Not provide cosmetic surgery, fertility treatment and gender reassignment, for example.

It needs to go back to its original remit.

What you, in your normal Daily Mail populist manner, deem to be "cosmetic surgery, fertility treatment and gender reassignment" can be life crippling conditions to those affected. Exactly what the NHS was designed for IMHO

What you say, in your usual Daily Mirror populist manner, explains precisely why the nation can't afford it.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 February, 2017 22:19
Exactly how much of the NHS budget is spent on these procedures that you so loathe Malco?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the part the NHS wasn't set up to cope with was the fact that UK life expectancy has increased from 66 and 71 for men and women respectively in 1948 to 77 and 81.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 February, 2017 22:36
Quote:
hasta
Exactly how much of the NHS budget is spent on these procedures that you so loathe Malco?
Or perhaps, just perhaps, the part the NHS wasn't set up to cope with was the fact that UK life expectancy has increased from 66 and 71 for men and women respectively in 1948 to 77 and 81.

Where did I say that I "loathe" anything?

You want to blame elderly people. The ones whose taxes all these years have funded the NHS. That's shameful.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 February, 2017 22:41
I'm not blaming the elderly for living longer, I'm explaining the reason the are more people needing the health service. You, on the other hand, are blaming people who have procedures you don't like despite the fact this makes up a trivial part of the budget.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 February, 2017 22:46
Quote:
hasta
I'm not blaming the elderly for living longer, I'm explaining the reason the are more people needing the health service. You, on the other hand, are blaming people who have procedures you don't like despite the fact this makes up a trivial part of the budget.

No I'm not.

I'm pointing out the fact that the original remit of the NHS was completely different to what it has become and that the number of people who use it and the number of procedures it provides account for the queues and the funding problems. It is unworkable. It gets bigger every year. The nation does not have bottomless pockets. The only way the country can afford it is to go back to the original model. A safety net for people who need it, providing essential treatment for the sick and injured.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 09:20
Quote:
Boldngrey
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
The NHS is indeed an infinite money pit. But to suggest that nothing can be done to improve it because it can never be made perfect is a counsel of despair and plainly nonsense.

Unsurprisingly I completely disagree.

Look back at the original 1948 charter. The NHS was originally intended as a safety net, not a universal service. And it was specifically designed to make ill people better. Not provide cosmetic surgery, fertility treatment and gender reassignment, for example.

It needs to go back to its original remit.


+1

A more intelligent awareness of modern day "illness" would understand the deep, long lasting impact and sometimes tragic effects on mental health on for example facial disfigurement requiring cosmetic surgery, the emptiness and despair some people experience from being naturally unable to bring a child into the world and those who soul feels imprisoned in the wrong type of body

For me Joost VW's message was about being massively thankful for the short time we have on this planet when our health is good and doing what we can to help those whose bodies and minds are not so well

Those who sneer at people for 'craving' what they regard as 'unnecessary' and at the expense of hardworking others or for being part of a "snowflake" society is the stuff of small minded Trumps

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 09:51
Quote:
malco
Quote:
hasta
I'm not blaming the elderly for living longer, I'm explaining the reason the are more people needing the health service. You, on the other hand, are blaming people who have procedures you don't like despite the fact this makes up a trivial part of the budget.

No I'm not.

I'm pointing out the fact that the original remit of the NHS was completely different to what it has become and that the number of people who use it and the number of procedures it provides account for the queues and the funding problems. It is unworkable. It gets bigger every year. The nation does not have bottomless pockets. The only way the country can afford it is to go back to the original model. A safety net for people who need it, providing essential treatment for the sick and injured.

+1

Priorities

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 09:51
Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
Boldngrey
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
The NHS is indeed an infinite money pit. But to suggest that nothing can be done to improve it because it can never be made perfect is a counsel of despair and plainly nonsense.

Unsurprisingly I completely disagree.

Look back at the original 1948 charter. The NHS was originally intended as a safety net, not a universal service. And it was specifically designed to make ill people better. Not provide cosmetic surgery, fertility treatment and gender reassignment, for example.

It needs to go back to its original remit.


+1

A more intelligent awareness of modern day "illness" would understand the deep, long lasting impact and sometimes tragic effects on mental health on for example facial disfigurement requiring cosmetic surgery, the emptiness and despair some people experience from being naturally unable to bring a child into the world and those who soul feels imprisoned in the wrong type of body

For me Joost VW's message was about being massively thankful for the short time we have on this planet when our health is good and doing what we can to help those whose bodies and minds are not so well

Those who sneer at people for 'craving' what they regard as 'unnecessary' and at the expense of hardworking others or for being part of a "snowflake" society is the stuff of small minded Trumps

And here we have it. If you do not support the Labour Party and Liberal Democrst policies of bankrupting the nation by pouring ever more money into a bottomless pit then you deserve to be called unintelligent, loathsome or a Daily Mail populist.

And then you wonder why nobody wants to vote for Labour and the Liberal Democrats...

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 12:56
Malco - I could spend time with a response but I think you've just said it

The big, big problem just couldn't be any clearer

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 13:14
The total requirement for health spending won't be reduced by your proposals Malco, just the route the money takes to get from our pockets into the healthcare system. So if it would "bankrupt" us as a nation to pay through taxes, moving to a safety net / top up system will still bankrupt us. Except some people will pay more, others will allow their health to suffer because of financial issues. Sounds great.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 13:31
Quote:
malco

.

And then you wonder why nobody wants to vote for Labour and the Liberal Democrats...

Just on a point of fact, in the last election more voted Labour and LibDem than Conservative.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 14:38
Quote:
malco
Quote:
hasta
I'm not blaming the elderly for living longer, I'm explaining the reason the are more people needing the health service. You, on the other hand, are blaming people who have procedures you don't like despite the fact this makes up a trivial part of the budget.

No I'm not.

I'm pointing out the fact that the original remit of the NHS was completely different to what it has become and that the number of people who use it and the number of procedures it provides account for the queues and the funding problems. It is unworkable. It gets bigger every year. The nation does not have bottomless pockets. The only way the country can afford it is to go back to the original model. A safety net for people who need it, providing essential treatment for the sick and injured.

Except the queues and funding problems are entirely down to providing essential treatment to an ageing population.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 14:47
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
malco
Quote:
hasta
I'm not blaming the elderly for living longer, I'm explaining the reason the are more people needing the health service. You, on the other hand, are blaming people who have procedures you don't like despite the fact this makes up a trivial part of the budget.

No I'm not.

I'm pointing out the fact that the original remit of the NHS was completely different to what it has become and that the number of people who use it and the number of procedures it provides account for the queues and the funding problems. It is unworkable. It gets bigger every year. The nation does not have bottomless pockets. The only way the country can afford it is to go back to the original model. A safety net for people who need it, providing essential treatment for the sick and injured.

Except the queues and funding problems are entirely down to providing essential treatment to an ageing population.

No, they aren't. Partly, yes, entirely, absolutely not.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 14:51
Vast majority. If you want to nibble at the corners then get rid of those procedures you dislike - but it won't fix the underlying issue. If you can fix the NHS to cope with the underlying issue then the procedures that bother you aren't a problem.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 16:42
As a matter of interest, what evidence do you have that the remit if the NHS has changed dramatically since 1948? The particular procedures which bother you hadn't been invented then of course, but that's not evidence that they wouldn't have been covered if they had existed.

The problems of the NHS are fundamentally due to the twin forks of 1) an ever increasing number of people requiring more health treatment - partially due to growing population but much more due the aging population. And 2) The fact the easy cheap cures have worked their magic, leaving people still alive to then get really expensive cancer and other treatment.

Malco's right that the potential spending is virtually infinite. But I see no evidence that spending is at its optimum level, especially when you compare it to other countries.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 16:58
Any government spending is potentially limitless, nothing specific about the NHS.

Where Malco is totally wrong is that the NHS was introduced as "safety net".The NHS was created to give free medical care to all - simple as that.

As society has changed along will medical / scientific advances, then the it is right and proper that the services offered should adapt and change.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 18:01
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
But I see no evidence that spending is at its optimum level, especially when you compare it to other countries.

Spending on the service expected is obviously not at optimum levels, because it's quality, efficiency and productivity is falling. But other countries provide nothing to suggest that the return on investment would be worthwhile or even produce equivalent services. Given we have universal healthcare (basically) it already has to cover more people, more procedures and more areas so is unlikely to be as effective.

Comparing the NHS to other countries, with vastly different systems, to suggest the optimum spending is folly. Like I said, if you let people invest in the NHS for individually better care, then you'll find the proportion of GDP will shoot up.

After all the USA spends far more per capita (than I think any European country) but it's nobodies role model.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2017 18:08 by Substitute.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 18:18
Part of the funding problem aside from the government wasting money in other areas is it's the world's NHS and not restricted to U.K. tax payers.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 18:34
Immigration is a very low proportion of rising costs in the NHS.

https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/why_is_the_nhs_getting_more_expensive_.png

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 18:48
Quote:
BBandW
Any government spending is potentially limitless, nothing specific about the NHS.
Where Malco is totally wrong is that the NHS was introduced as "safety net".The NHS was created to give free medical care to all - simple as that.

As society has changed along will medical / scientific advances, then the it is right and proper that the services offered should adapt and change.

Yep that and also we are starting to realise it is called a Health[b][/b] service for a reason, not an illness or broken bone service

Holistic, preventative measures are a lot more cost effective over time than a blinkered 'only fix it when its broken' approach - that was what I meant by a more intelligent approach to the NHS but if some want to go all snowflakey and take it personally well go ahead

Our health and our education are the two biggest gifts we have along with life itself - we should have enlightened leaders looking upon these areas as demanding long term investment with long term payback and not nit-picky small minded accountants playing politics by trying to cut the costs on a day by day basis or shift the cost to someone else's budget line

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 19:06
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
But I see no evidence that spending is at its optimum level, especially when you compare it to other countries.

Spending on the service expected is obviously not at optimum levels, because it's quality, efficiency and productivity is falling. But other countries provide nothing to suggest that the return on investment would be worthwhile or even produce equivalent services. Given we have universal healthcare (basically) it already has to cover more people, more procedures and more areas so is unlikely to be as effective.

Comparing the NHS to other countries, with vastly different systems, to suggest the optimum spending is folly. Like I said, if you let people invest in the NHS for individually better care, then you'll find the proportion of GDP will shoot up.

After all the USA spends far more per capita (than I think any European country) but it's nobodies role model.

Other systems differ in the detail, but there are plenty which are basically state funded universal care to benchmark against.

How are you prevented from spending more for better care if you want to? Many do.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 21:52
Right, that's enough.

This forum is not an equal place for Bath Rugby supporters.

It is the Liberal democrat and Labour Bath Rugby supporters forum. If you don't fit in with that consensus you are clearly considered a legitimate target for rudeness, anger, hate and insult. Even (especially) by the moderators of the forum. That is shameful.

If you retaliate in similar vein you get formal warnings from the same moderators who are happy to target you for daring not to share their political views.

I have absolutely no need to put up with it. I'll just leave you to congratulate yourselves on your success and superiority.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 22:18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 22:39
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. *flounce*.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 February, 2017 23:28
Amuse yourself for five minutes by reading this thread from the start. Note that it's Malco who starts chucking the insults about while everyone else is just arguing the various points in a completely non ad hominem way.

Extraordinary lack of self awareness.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 08:45
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Amuse yourself for five minutes by reading this thread from the start. Note that it's Malco who starts chucking the insults about while everyone else is just arguing the various points in a completely non ad hominem way.
Extraordinary lack of self awareness.

It's the comfort blanket of cognitive dissonance dismissing people who disagree as sad, mad or bad twined with the Trumper style of political argument that presents his way as the only, righteous, god-given alternative to the end of civilisation and the horses of the apocalypse riding across the festering residue

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 08:55
Sadly he's often right!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 09:09
He may or may not be right about possible solutions - YMMV. He's frequently factually incorrect about correlations - and he's absolutely wrong about:

1. It is the Liberal democrat and Labour Bath Rugby supporters forum.

It's clearly not - and he's the only one who regularly brings up party politics

2. If you don't fit in with that consensus you are clearly considered a legitimate target for rudeness, anger, hate and insult. Even (especially) by the moderators of the forum.

No one comes close to the rudeness, anger, hate and insults he dishes out.

3. If you retaliate in similar vein you get formal warnings from the same moderators who are happy to target you for daring not to share their political views.

See above for 'similar vein' discrepancy, but I've not seen this happen, (some) people just don't agree with him. Some people clearly do (at least in part) e.g. yourself BnG, OutsideBath, BathFanJack, Huxter...



4.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 09:14
Quote:
hasta
He may or may not be right about possible solutions - YMMV. He's frequently factually incorrect about correlations - and he's absolutely wrong about:
1. It is the Liberal democrat and Labour Bath Rugby supporters forum.

It's clearly not - and he's the only one who regularly brings up party politics

2. If you don't fit in with that consensus you are clearly considered a legitimate target for rudeness, anger, hate and insult. Even (especially) by the moderators of the forum.

No one comes close to the rudeness, anger, hate and insults he dishes out.

3. If you retaliate in similar vein you get formal warnings from the same moderators who are happy to target you for daring not to share their political views.

See above for 'similar vein' discrepancy, but I've not seen this happen, (some) people just don't agree with him. Some people clearly do (at least in part) e.g. yourself BnG, OutsideBath, BathFanJack, Huxter...

4.

There really isn't too much I agree with Malco about, I have absolutely no time for Tories



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 09:19
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
He may or may not be right about possible solutions - YMMV. He's frequently factually incorrect about correlations - and he's absolutely wrong about:
1. It is the Liberal democrat and Labour Bath Rugby supporters forum.

It's clearly not - and he's the only one who regularly brings up party politics

2. If you don't fit in with that consensus you are clearly considered a legitimate target for rudeness, anger, hate and insult. Even (especially) by the moderators of the forum.

No one comes close to the rudeness, anger, hate and insults he dishes out.

3. If you retaliate in similar vein you get formal warnings from the same moderators who are happy to target you for daring not to share their political views.

See above for 'similar vein' discrepancy, but I've not seen this happen, (some) people just don't agree with him. Some people clearly do (at least in part) e.g. yourself BnG, OutsideBath, BathFanJack, Huxter...

4.

There really isn't too much I agree with Malco about, I have absolutely no time for Tories


Be careful you don't prove Malco right about the political bias!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/02/2017 09:21 by Boldngrey.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 09:30
malco appears so much the epitome of modern alt-right politician, I sometimes wondered if he was a parody. He comes up with alt-facts with which he will brook no argument. If you do attempt to engage the actual facts, he simply hits the angry button and changes the subject.

If he manages to stay away, which I doubt, I have to admit I will miss him, as I do enjoy winding him up. Politics aside, on Bath Rugby matters, he does seem to be one of the best informed on 'ere.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 11:27
I sometimes agree with Malco but also at times find myself agreeing with Mr Jayeatman, Stuart et al on certain issues.

This might explain why I have in my voting time of nearly 40 years voted for every party!

My views are simple (Shurely shome mishtake - ED)


1. The EU is a disaster and because we were not part of it right from the start with the Iron and Steel Treaty of 1956 it is still set up principally for the French and Germans and not for the UK economy which has for several generations been service orientated.

2. If the EU "came back our way" and reverted to the Common Market of 1975 I would vote to revoke Article 50.

3. I believe that the massive tensions in the EU, an outrageous level of unemployment and in particular youth unemployment in the Southern Countries is a stain on the conscience of the EU in Brussels. The policies that they have endorsed have brought this about and have perpetuated I really struggle to see how EU supporters can so easily turn a blind eye to this state of affairs.

4. The Euro will never work, and indeed will be worse for most people in the future......apart from the Germans, unless there is a United States of Europe.......which there will NEVER BE.

5. The Germans have been in breach of EU rules on running trade surpluses for about 10 years now and their latest 9% of GDP trade surplus is sucking the lifeblood out of the EU. The EU is meant to fine them but has not done so......draw your own conclusions.

6. German banks are heavily lent to the southern states and therefore need the can of refinancing and debt forgiveness to be kicked down the road. See the issues at Deutsche Bank

7. It is my view the Euro will in time change form......and might well become a Northern Euro.

8. The EU will start to change from 2018, once we have got over the year of elections this year. Junckers will be increasingly side lined and has announced he is going in 2019.

9. There is a big world out there and we, the UK, need to be far more aggressive/competitive in winning more international trade. A 20% depreciation in the currency is a one-of help and we must do everything to exploit this position.

10. The UK must become a beacon for free trade and wealth creation.......but ignore the mantra from Labour about a race to the bottom. Labour rights will be protected.....but labour must also be able to decide if it wants to work more.

11. Non-dom tax should be removed and everything must be done to encourage the world's money to come to London.

12. People talk about us giving up the 41% of our trade with the EU by voting to leave. This is of course complete political nonsense (don't they all talk so much rubbish at times). No one in Europe buys from our companies because we are in the EU!!!!!!!!!!! They buy because the product/price/service/delivery is better than the competitors. just because we will leave the EU this 41% will not disappear unless we want it to/let it happen. One of our companies a few months ago (well post the vote) won a massive 10 year contract from a huge German corporation with the competition being from China and India.......if there had been a competitive German supplier they would mostly likely have gone with them.

13. Immigration into the UK is GOOD and has happened for about 5,000 years. HOWEVER the scale of immigration in the last 10 years and the fact that it has been very localised has created major local tensions. We need to allow who WE WANT IN.....we do not want to be in a position where anyone from 27 nations some whose average wages are a fifth of those in the UK can come in.

14. We need to reduce immigration, students should be excluded, increase capital investment, training and education and of greatest importance increase productivity as only by doing this will wage rates rise and wealth be created that as a society we can then decide how it is to be used.

15. We need to increase the level of income before tax is paid, personal allowance, as quickly as possible to a level of say 60% of average wages, c £15,000.

16. Everything possible must be done to boost productivity, industrial output, investment and exports.

17. Hinckley Point should be knocked on the head and new incentives should be reintroduced to the most sustainable carbon free energy production being wave and hydro. We need to think like the Victorians and complete projects that might well have a 50 year pay back....Swansea Barrage for example......but which will then generate no-risk, carbon free energy FOR EVER.

18. NHS needs a new model being a composite of Health Insurance and Tax funded. Elderly, Disabled, Mental care needs "removing" from the NHS and needs funding separately. Patently this will take time and we will have to endure several years of transition. The Elderly Care has been underfunded for 30 years and we are now reaping the results of ignoring this area for years. The answer is not to give the NHS more and more money but to recognise what the problem is and fix that problem.

19. More housing has to be built........

20. Education needs to be improved so that UK Education "regains" the gold standard it was so famous for.


Although the statistics show that inequality is reducing and continues to reduce we need to do all that we can to revitalise large areas of the country north of Birmingham as an arbitrary line.

There are several wish items above, being 15, 17, 18 and 20 but these can only be funded once there has been growth and wealth generation. More taxes is not the answer as I believe tax takes at 38% are as high as they have been for a generation and any increase in rates will actually produce less revenue (reference Laffer's Curve)

What I have outlined above might take 10 - 20 years to see evidence of it working this is NOT a quick fix.

 
Barfer
Barfer (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 12:29
Now is this to be considered a hard flounce or a soft flounce? What are the terms of the flounce?

Does flounce mean flounce?

 
BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 12:58
Quote:
Barfer
Now is this to be considered a hard flounce or a soft flounce? What are the terms of the flounce?
Does flounce mean flounce?

Presumably Malco will now be free to negotiate and trade new insults wherever he wants.

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 13:50
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
Barfer
Now is this to be considered a hard flounce or a soft flounce? What are the terms of the flounce?
Does flounce mean flounce?

Presumably Malco will now be free to negotiate and trade new insults wherever he wants.


.... freed from the constraints of the Liberal Elite.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 February, 2017 17:09
Is this flounce fake news or real news, if the latter it is sensational! winking smiley



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/02/2017 17:09 by CoochieCoo.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 February, 2017 13:50
Enough of the GF/FB news. Here's an interesting take as to why it is wrong to blame the EU for high immigration to the UK. (Try to ignore the sensationalist headline).
[www.nakedcapitalism.com]



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 February, 2017 14:25
Quote:
jayeatman
Enough of the GF/FB news. Here's an interesting take as to why it is wrong to blame the EU for high immigration to the UK.

1) We know it was government policy.
2) I suspect for those for whom immigration was a big concern, weren't only concerned with unemployed migrants or those from outside the EU.

What the EU can rightly be charged with is limiting the freedom to control migration from inside the EU, particularly into lower-paid jobs or jobs without a critical shortage.

Quote:
jayeatman
(Try to ignore the sensationalist headline).

Why? Because you don't want to believe immigration is used to suppress wages?

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 February, 2017 14:31
Quote:
malco
Quote:
DanWiley
It all depends on the granularity in which you see the world doesn't it? You can see it from an European level or a British one. In both cases, you are discriminating.
On a British level you are favouring a person from Yorkshire over a person from Spain. On a European level you are favouring a person from Spain over a person from India.

Both the UK and the EU are able to choose to allow immigrants where they feel the indigenous population can't provide certain skills.

The only difference is the granularity, which I accept is important, I just feel that the world should be trying to reduce barriers, not create them. Naturally that leads to bigger political entities.

I agree with you.

So, we have replaced the granular EU barrier and gone for global equality.



Seems as though we settled this argument a page ago

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT UK Politics
15 February, 2017 16:39
Apparently 32% of companies now think Brexit is a good thing up from 17%........obviously that means that 68% are indifferent or think it is a bad thing.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 February, 2017 17:10
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
...obviously that means that 68% are indifferent or think it is a bad thing.

Are you DanWiley in disguise?

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT UK Politics
15 February, 2017 17:40
Substitute.....or may I be rather more familiar and call you "Sub"

I put in the second part to the sentence because if I hadn't the Remoaners (sorry shouldn't use that but it just slipped out) would immediately alight on the 32% and say 68% therefore still thought it a bad thing. In reality, in my view a big chunk of the 68% will, in my experience, be indifferent.

However if you look at it another way after eight months the percentage has double to 32% which means that in another eight months it WILL double to 64% and then at the end of another eight months it will double again to 128%........(shurley shome mishtake - ED) I must be using Reverse Project Fear mathematics!!!(Sm156)(Sm22)

However on a more serious note I have probably met fifty companies in the past six months and not one appears "over concerned" about Brexit! Some people will now say they are living in a bubble and have not addressed the enormity of the situation(Sm124)(Sm120)

However I sense a real reassessment going on in Europe with real concern over the Greek situation.....again(Sm80). Yet it is impossible to do what the IMF, and indeed anyone with an ounce of common sense knows is right, as politically this year of all years writing off Greek debt is political suicide for the incumbent political parties. So the Greeks have to endure another year of austerity which has already taken them below the American Recession with GDP down 30%. As a point of reference UK GDP went down about 7% from memory.

Mme Lagarde is already putting down the advance warning flares, the French presidential candidates seem to be competing for the most farcical outcome possible and even Mrs Merkel is looking over shoulder which six months ago would have been unthinkable.eye popping smiley

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 February, 2017 18:21
In fairness I've never said anything other than about 1/3rd don't really care.

 
Henry Hell
Henry Hell (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 February, 2017 22:01
I had to look up the meaning of "granularity".


gran∑u∑lar∑i∑ty


[uk.search.yahoo.com]

I would suggest referring to

Politics and the English Language

[en.wikipedia.org]

 
Henry Hell
Henry Hell (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 February, 2017 22:43
I dread to think of the next "financial crash". The Stock Market is one vast Ponzi Scheme. And the Euro is dishonestly fuelling the inevitable collapse.

It's not if but when.

Accumulation by dispossession

[en.wikipedia.org]


Maginot Line

[en.wikipedia.org]

I fear I am nothing but the Prophet of Doom.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 February, 2017 08:39
You seem to post in a very similar manner to Mr Blessing.

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 February, 2017 08:51
He is Mr Blessing - changed name

 
Henry Hell
Henry Hell (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 February, 2017 18:45
Indeed Sir 'tis I, WB but I seem to be only able to post under the name of Henry Hell alas.

I very much appreciate the incredible level of debate here, but I would like to look back to the past to learn for the future,

This is why I post links such as to The Maginot Line, or the fall of Singapore, the Wall Street Crash of 1922, German Hyper-Inflation of the 1920's. the rise of fascism, Dunkirk et al.

Europe needs to get Real.

Nato is the only viable umbrella for that rainy day.

WB


[williamblessing.blogspot.co.uk]

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 February, 2017 20:49
Welcome back WB and a great moniker too

 
Henry Hell
Henry Hell (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 February, 2017 21:22
Thank you so much for your too kind words Gaz59. I must admit I worry that I am indeed but an annoyance.

I was exiled from the Bristol Forum because I found the dismal level of uninformed and semi-literate comments by some but not all to be so intolerable that I became involved and then mercilessly trolled by one or many hackers and yet given no protection that I too became so infuriated so here I am.

But in a misguided attempt to save all of my passwords under one password with "key safe" I lost my log in details for WB but now for some unknown reason, I'm Henry Hell.

I don't think I'm banned as I have done nothing to offend nor post on the Bristol Forum as requested by their editor.

The latest piece of lunacy on their forum was that the chairman should be fired.

He only saved the club from extinction but clearly is ..oh I give up.



Their Forum is in a way much better now I must say but alas I find endless talk just about rugby unspeakably dull.

I suppose I was only trying to liven it up but obviously, I have failed to entertain.

Thank God for this forum and Bath Rugby Club I say.

I am very lucky and most indebted to you all.

wb

[williamblessing.blogspot.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 24/02/2017 04:00 by Henry Hell.

 
Henry Hell
Henry Hell (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
28 February, 2017 05:32
Sir John Major launches extraordinary attack on Theresa May's government over Brexit

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Where's Malco?

wb

[williamblessing.blogspot.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
28 February, 2017 12:20
Elsewhere.

Spitting blood and lamenting the lack of a death penalty for treasonous ex-Prime ministers no doubt.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Henry Hell
Henry Hell (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
28 February, 2017 14:44
Look out. Malco's about.


[williamblessing.blogspot.co.uk]

 
EverOptimistic
EverOptimistic (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
02 March, 2017 19:12
It has been posted on our (Bris) board that William Blessing, aka Henry Hell, aka Derek, has died.

Very sad news.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 09:15
Richard Dawkins: Brits have not spoken on Brexit


[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 10:34
Very intelligent man is Dawkins.

But, but
We're all Brexiters now
We won/ you lost
Sore loser
Brexit means Brexit
DEMOCRACY
Control over our boarders (SIC)
European Superstate
£350m a week
Immigrants
Remoaner
Liberal elite
Deal with it
Traitor
Sore Loser
Sovereignty
German cars/French wine/Italian Prosecco



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:22
Just because he's intelligent, doesn't mean he can acquire and apply his knowledge better. To be honest, I'm surprised the BBC have got time to cover him given the constitutional crisis created by the Lords sending a bill back.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:26
Quote:
DanWiley
Just because he's intelligent, doesn't mean he can acquire and apply his knowledge better. To be honest, I'm surprised the BBC have got time to cover him given the constitutional crisis created by the Lords sending a bill back.

Dan I would have thought you would have liked what he said

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:28
To be honest I didn't actually watch it.

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:31
Constitutional crisis?

The BBC is all about winging head teachers.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:33
What crisis? The Lords amend bills all the time. The Commons can still refuse to accept them.

The Lords are just doing their jobs, pointing out that:
1. In the vain hope of gaining an illusory bargaining advantage, it is reprehensible to hold the future of 3m of of our fellow EU citizens' futures to ransom.
2. Insisting on the supremacy of parliament over the executive.

Perhaps if Labour and the few Tory rebels with guts got their act together, the amendments might get accepted but I'm not holding my breath. Even if they did, so what? Theresa still gets to invoke ART50 before the end of March.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:35
Quote:
DanWiley
To be honest I didn't actually watch it.

Get on with it then

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:36
1. Politicians break manifesto promises.
2. Knowing something about education, teachers don't like Grammar schools.
3. Politicians ignore experts.

Is any of this news?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:36
This thread isn't the same without Malco, what's happened to him?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:37
We broke his spirit.
I bet he still lurks.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:38
I hope he didnt get sent back to South Africa

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:45
Quote:
jayeatman
1. In the vain hope of gaining an illusory bargaining advantage, it is reprehensible to hold the future of 3m of of our fellow EU citizens' futures to ransom.

Nothing wrong with using all potential negotiating points to get what we want.

Also why on earth should we guarantee their rights until we get the same for UK passport holders living in the EU?



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 16:53
I have to put up with it, so can the foreigners here and the British foreigners abroad. Tough titties.

Also when does the music stop? The day before Article 50?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 17:18
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
jayeatman
1. In the vain hope of gaining an illusory bargaining advantage, it is reprehensible to hold the future of 3m of of our fellow EU citizens' futures to ransom.

Nothing wrong with using all potential negotiating points to get what we want.

Also why on earth should we guarantee their rights until we get the same for UK passport holders living in the EU?

Because:
1. It will almost certainly be agreed anyway, so it's a zero-value bargaining chip.
2. Skilled or not, our economy needs these people. @#$%& them off isn't clever.
3. They are our neighbors, our friends, our colleagues, our other-halves.
4. It's the right thing to do and would engender goodwill, something Boris seems hell-bent on destroying.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 17:39
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
jayeatman
1. In the vain hope of gaining an illusory bargaining advantage, it is reprehensible to hold the future of 3m of of our fellow EU citizens' futures to ransom.

Nothing wrong with using all potential negotiating points to get what we want.

Also why on earth should we guarantee their rights until we get the same for UK passport holders living in the EU?


Because:
1. It will almost certainly be agreed anyway, so it's a zero-value bargaining chip.
2. Skilled or not, our economy needs these people. @#$%& them off isn't clever.
3. They are our neighbors, our friends, our colleagues, our other-halves.
4. It's the right thing to do and would engender goodwill, something Boris seems hell-bent on destroying.

If it's the right thing to do why aren't the Europeans offering it up front?

Personally I don't care what happens to them, but whatever is decided it has to be identical for both parties.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 18:10
Because they are sticking to the line that until Article 50 is triggered, there is nothing to discuss,



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
10 March, 2017 18:17
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Because they are sticking to the line that until Article 50 is triggered, there is nothing to discuss,

Then that should be our line as well.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 March, 2017 19:31
It is.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
11 March, 2017 19:37
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
It is.

Not according to the lords, they want to have a guarantee for the foreigners without considering UK passport holders living inthe EU.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
12 March, 2017 10:54
By "our" I thought you meant UK Government.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT UK Politics
12 March, 2017 23:41
Given we are told it is only Germany objecting to this why don't we agree informally with everyone else and say we can't agree this for Germans.

I suspect this will be very popular in the UK and even more popular across major parts of Europe!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 12:09
[www.bbc.co.uk]

My scottish passport application is back on the table

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 12:28
Would have been wiser to have only beaten them by 5 points on Saturday!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 12:35
Quote:
woodpecker
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181
My scottish passport application is back on the table

Bye then.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 12:48
Great idea. Send all the Remoaners to Scotland.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 14:23
The question is will May tell Sturgeon where to go on the basis of potentially voting for an independent Scotland just before Brexit leaves 5m Scots completely up the creek without a paddle (not in the UK or the EU). Or does she just let her get on with it and give it zero attention on the basis that the UK has bigger fish to fry ?

Sturgeon think's she's spotted an opportunity but I suspect (and hope) that this will be her downfall.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 15:24
I guess it depends on how much confidence you have that May will negotiate a good deal for Scotland. I think the deal England could get could be pretty poor so I could well see it playing into the Scots hands either by getting more influence over the brexit deal or making the end of the union a forgone conclusion.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 17:29
I think Scotland will have a very hard time arguing that on the basis of the UK leaving it's biggest 'single' trading partner and free movement area that Scotland should therefore leave their largest (and fastest growing) trading and free movement area.

However, politics is often illogical and I think for the reasons a Leave vote will be good for the UK maybe independence will suit Scotland.

Pre-empting the government triggering Article 50 is unlikely the strengthen the deal Scotland gets - but then it's exactly in the SNP's benefit (though perhaps not Scotland) to not get a better deal. Not even giving Theresa May the chance to offer a better deal strikes me as desperately trying to not get a better 'deal'.

(I also think it's pretty poor form but, hey, they're the 'insurgents' now).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/03/2017 17:32 by Substitute.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 17:41
"I think Scotland will have a very hard time arguing that on the basis of the UK leaving it's biggest 'single' trading partner and free movement area that Scotland should therefore leave there largest (and fastest growing) trading and free movement area. "

Maybe, although May is in something of a greenhouse in that respect. I can't see she can counter argue very credibly.

The SNP could have it as a win-win. Scotland is seen to get a bad deal from brexit, they leave the union (ultimate goal achieved). Scotland does better than the rest of the UK from brexit, well that's a win as well and they've still strengthened the chances of union ending. Everything goes @#$%& up, Scotland leaves the union. Either way, queuing up a referendum works for them.

It is rather poor form, but that's politics and I doubt all our government are about to do will cover us in glory. In fact, given they've tried desperately to circumvent our parliamentary process they are probably already down in the moral stakes.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 19:12
Her angle seems to be that before it was the risk of inference bs the safety of staying in the UK and the EU.

Now, in her books, it's a choice of which kind of %%%% up would you prefer. Certainly No couldn't campaign on the same terms as before.

I think the oil price has done for her though, if that was still high I'd have had a quid on her winning.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Huxster
Huxster (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 19:24
Grant it to her on condition she pays off last years spending deficit in spending cuts this year, then see how they vote.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 20:13
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Now, in her books, it's a choice of which kind of %%%% up would you prefer. Certainly No couldn't campaign on the same terms as before.

I actually think she boxed herself in and felt she had to announce the referendum.

It was widely understood she only wanted to calla referendum if she was certain she would win - however she made her Brexit material change promise and now has to stick to it.

And while the argument for the 'No' side has changed so has the argument for the 'yes' side. Not to mention the vague hope that nobody notices that their argument against Brexit and for Independence are wholly contradictory.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 21:31
Doesn't she just compare the non existent lack of sovereignty experienced by being in the EU with the very real lack of sovereignty they are experiencing as a result of Brexit?

 
Huxster
Huxster (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 22:11
Thats it scrap the Bartlett formula, give them a reason to vote out, " we only want a fair share" you are already getting more than a fair share. 9% of the population making 90% of the noise.



again



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
Huxster
Huxster (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 22:15
Also show her Schedule 5 of the Scotland act particularly those on the reserved list !!!
Reserved matters include:

the constitution
foreign affairs
defence
international development
the Civil Service
financial and economic matters
immigration and nationality
misuse of drugs
trade and industry
aspects of energy regulation (eg electricity, coal, oil and gas and nuclear energy)
aspects of transport (eg regulation of air services, rail and international shipping)
employment
social security
abortion, genetics, surrogacy, medicines
broadcasting
equal opportunities



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
13 March, 2017 22:49
Quote:
DanWiley
Doesn't she just compare the non existent lack of sovereignty experienced by being in the EU with the very real lack of sovereignty they are experiencing as a result of Brexit?

So by lack of sovereignty you mean that they are expected to adhere to the politics of the whole union - because that's equally 'real' in the EU.

After all, I don't recall many British being consulted on or voting for unlimited free movement, nor do I recall Europe acquiescencing to Britain, or Poland more recently, on their objections.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 07:45
Are you thinking that our government has no input into Maastricht?

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 09:25
Free movement was, contrary to people's faulty memories of 40 years ago, already a pillar of the EEC when we joined, and voted then to stay in.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 09:55
I don't think I can stand a load of sweaties pontificating about independence for the next 2 years, not after the rubbish of the last 2 referendums

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 10:15
Quote:
DanWiley
Are you thinking that our government has no input into Maastricht?

I'm thinking our plebiscite had no meaningful say on Maastricht, or Lisbon. Were an independent Scotland to join the EU, I expect that would remain the same.

Do you think Scotland has no input into the workings of our government?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 10:20
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Free movement was, contrary to people's faulty memories of 40 years ago, already a pillar of the EEC when we joined, and voted then to stay in.

So? People change their mind. No one is required to hold the opinion they held 40 years ago.

Not to mention it did not extend to the multitude of nations that have since joined the EU, who it can't be said are of a similar economic strength. There were restrictions available on these labour forces - our government chose not to implement them.

 
BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:29
I do find using people's lives as bargaining chips very distasteful.

How can the government morally say to people, who quite legally came to the UK, settled, put down roots etc, that they may be expelled. It's simply wrong.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:32
Quote:
BBandW
I do find using people's lives as bargaining chips very distasteful.
How can the government morally say to people, who quite legally came to the UK, settled, put down roots etc, that they may be expelled. It's simply wrong.

Aah well there was this referendum thing and the Brexiteers won, so a lot of things are changing...

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:36
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Free movement was, contrary to people's faulty memories of 40 years ago, already a pillar of the EEC when we joined, and voted then to stay in.

So? People change their mind. No one is required to hold the opinion they held 40 years ago.
.

I was responding to the statement that the British people had never been asked about free movement.



Stuart

Former ed.

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