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BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:37
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BBandW
I do find using people's lives as bargaining chips very distasteful.
How can the government morally say to people, who quite legally came to the UK, settled, put down roots etc, that they may be expelled. It's simply wrong.

Aah well there was this referendum thing and the Brexiteers won, so a lot of things are changing...

The fundamemntals of right and wrong don't change.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:44
Quote:
BBandW
I do find using people's lives as bargaining chips very distasteful.
How can the government morally say to people, who quite legally came to the UK, settled, put down roots etc, that they may be expelled. It's simply wrong.

If they have settled then they are entitled to stay - you get automatic permanent residence status after 5 years. Any attempt to retrospectively revoke that would never get past the legal system.

If you're a recent arrival, your status is in much more doubt, but so really is the level of outrage it is reasonably to feel about that.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:46
Basically 65 million British people will to lose their right to freedom of movement and the rest of the EU the same with regard to the UK.

Millions of European citizens in the UK are living with uncertainty as are a million or so Britons in Europe

Its a big deal all round! ( I didn't vote for it)

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:55
I like many have Scottish ancestry and find the idea of the Union being broken up a complete anathema.

However, this seems to me to be more about the wants of a certain Mrs Sturgeon than what is sensible for the Scottish people and yes the UK as a whole. She is determined to ignore any previous vote until she gets her own way, wanting recognition of herself being involved in running the country. She is not even an elected member of a constituency if I recall rightly so how does she have the right to lead her Remoaning party (who have made an appalling job of running their economy and affairs under their control) and the Scottish people out of the Union?

If they do vote to go on their own, I think it should be on the basis that they take their share of the National Debt with them. Falling oil revenues plus being saddled like the rest of the UK with a National Debt would mean fairly draconian taxation requirements on the Scottish people, with no handouts from the rest of the UK. In someways, we should say off you go, if you want, but pay us what you are due.

And by the way, like Trump and Mexico, the Scots should fund the rebuilding of Hadrian's Wall.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 13:56
The irony of this is that those people most affected, neither the 3m or so in UK and the 1m or so in EU, got a vote in the referendum.

For me it's such a no-brainer both morally and most likely legally, that pretending this is some sort of bargaining chip just portrays you as xenophobic. Wouldn't it be politically better to say: 'We absolutely will make sure this will be the first thing to be agreed once negotiations start' rather than the implied (and probably impotent) threat of mass-deportations if everything goes to pot?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 14:03
Quote:
jayeatman
The irony of this is that those people most affected, neither the 3m or so in UK and the 1m or so in EU, got a vote in the referendum.
For me it's such a no-brainer both morally and most likely legally, that pretending this is some sort of bargaining chip just portrays you as xenophobic. Wouldn't it be politically better to say: 'We absolutely will make sure this will be the first thing to be agreed once negotiations start' rather than the implied (and probably impotent) threat of mass-deportations if everything goes to pot?

As far as I can tell, that's what will happen straight away. Its just that the Germans wanted to follow the rules (surprise) and wait until article 50 was triggered. I cant see why everyone is getting worked up about it.

We've made our bed, now we have to lie in it.

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 14:38
Quote:
Bathovalballer

However, this seems to me to be more about the wants of a certain Mrs Sturgeon than what is sensible for the Scottish people and yes the UK as a whole. She is determined to ignore any previous vote until she gets her own way, wanting recognition of herself being involved in running the country. She is not even an elected member of a constituency if I recall rightly so how does she have the right to lead her Remoaning party (who have made an appalling job of running their economy and affairs under their control) and the Scottish people out of the Union?


She has been quoted as saying that she has wanted independence for Scotland since she was 15 years old.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 14:48
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
jayeatman
The irony of this is that those people most affected, neither the 3m or so in UK and the 1m or so in EU, got a vote in the referendum.
For me it's such a no-brainer both morally and most likely legally, that pretending this is some sort of bargaining chip just portrays you as xenophobic. Wouldn't it be politically better to say: 'We absolutely will make sure this will be the first thing to be agreed once negotiations start' rather than the implied (and probably impotent) threat of mass-deportations if everything goes to pot?

As far as I can tell, that's what will happen straight away. Its just that the Germans wanted to follow the rules (surprise) and wait until article 50 was triggered. I cant see why everyone is getting worked up about it.

Indeed. Plenty of people ready to criticise the morality of their nation towards EU nationals but silent on the reciprocal treatment of British nationals by EU nations.

Then you wonder why people complain of the impression that patriotism is the preserve of the Leave side of the argument.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 14:53
All Theresa had to say was that she would give EU citizens rights as long as the EU would give UK citizens reciprocal rights. Details to be thrashed out during negotiation. But instead she kept moaning about the Lord's weakening her bargaining hand.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 16:34
Quote:
Bathovalballer

If they do vote to go on their own, I think it should be on the basis that they take their share of the National Debt with them.

I am looking forward to Brexiters simultaneously arguing that Scotland must pay its debts run up while it was part of the union, while the UK doesn't have to pay its debts run up while it was part of another union.

That we're Stronger Together but also Stronger Apart.

Almost worth giving them another referendum to watch them tie themselves in logical knots.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 16:37
Quote:
jayeatman
The irony of this is that those people most affected, neither the 3m or so in UK and the 1m or so in EU, got a vote in the referendum.
For me it's such a no-brainer both morally and most likely legally, that pretending this is some sort of bargaining chip just portrays you as xenophobic. Wouldn't it be politically better to say: 'We absolutely will make sure this will be the first thing to be agreed once negotiations start' rather than the implied (and probably impotent) threat of mass-deportations if everything goes to pot?

There is some bargaining at the edges. When do people still have the right to stay here with no limits; arrived after June 16, or the date we trigger Brexit? Or the date we actually leave?



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 16:56
Quote:
BBandW
I do find using people's lives as bargaining chips very distasteful.
How can the government morally say to people, who quite legally came to the UK, settled, put down roots etc, that they may be expelled. It's simply wrong.

DD has said that is not the case. He considers, quite rightly, the 1m UK residents as equally important so why should they be potentially put at a disadvantage. In other words he is equally concerned about the whole 4m & does not wish to distinguish between them. An agreement for all will be a priority once the negotiations commence & there will be similar pressure on the EU negotiators as is being exerted here.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 17:10
I don't think that EU nationals on benefits should be granted continued leave to stay in the UK post Brexit.

The same should apply to any UK national living in Europe.



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 17:36
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
All Theresa had to say was that she would give EU citizens rights as long as the EU would give UK citizens reciprocal rights. Details to be thrashed out during negotiation. But instead she kept moaning about the Lord's weakening her bargaining hand.

Err, she did.

But while the EU (Germany) refuse to guarantee reciprocal rights she can only do it unilaterally.

As much as we expect a reciprocal agreement, unilateral declarations do not guarantee it. For it to be reciprocal both parties must agree.

Before you next bash the UK government let's be clear: it is the EU keeping it on the table. Were we to offer a unilateral declaration protecting EU national rights, British nationals rights would still be on the table!

 
Huxster
Huxster (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 18:13
Stuart the differecne in the budgets being that Scotland spent a deficit of £15bn last year thats inpressive even by Greek standards, and this shortfall was paid by Westminster, so basically the Scots would be paying back/holding debt on what they overspent.
Whereas the EU bill is for future committed EU expenditure. The EU spend what it takes in from members or the minority who are net contributers anyway, apart from the 4% or $7 Bn that they "lose", which is nearly Britains annual contribution so the first thing they should do is get their financial institutions in order to stop this misplacing of funds from going on.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
ade1865
Ade1865 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
14 March, 2017 19:57
Quote:
I don't think that EU nationals on benefits should be granted continued leave to stay in the UK post Brexit.
The same should apply to any UK national living in Europe.

I quite agree, and that should include all the lazy @#$%& Brits sitting around in Britain. dump the lot in the sea for all the bloody good they do us. Its fecking hard enough to make a decent living without schools telling you that your kids have to do SATs catch ups after school, presuming that yer on the ol king cole and can pick them up anytime! Lazy parents = lazy kids = over burdened and@#$%&schools. It also means an over burdened NHS, crap public transport, a fractured society, a lack of housing and poverty on a scale that hasn't altered since the 1970s. Teenage girls who are too poor and uneducated to know a) what a period is and b) to but tampons to go to school. thousands of working people relying on hand outs to get by due to the uncertainties of zero hours contracts. How can anyone look at our society and not come to the conclusion that it is totally broken?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 March, 2017 08:44
Perhaps this is not a bad thing:

Sturgeon is making access to the single market a key issue, i.e. her hand is strengthened in her referendum if we don't get good access.

I think the head bangers in the tory party are strongly unionist

Also, the Spanish wont want the UK to get a bad deal re Scotland

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 March, 2017 08:47
Deleted



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/03/2017 10:42 by OutsideBath.

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
15 March, 2017 10:46
Can you do the same with Nicola Sturgeon?

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 March, 2017 19:56
Good article

[www.theguardian.com]

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 March, 2017 20:36
Except that with Brexit, Britain is voting to free itself from control.

While the Scots seem to want to free themselves of British control only to subject themselves to EU control!

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 March, 2017 21:12
What I can't get my head around is what happens IF the Scots get their independence and rejoin the EU and the UK (exc Scots) can't get a trade deal with the EU. The Scots do 70% of their trade with the UK and their economy would be screwed (as would ours of course).

How can having another indyRef without full knowledge of the Brexit trade deal be a good idea in Sturgeon world ?

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 March, 2017 21:17
I'd love see May arguing that Scotland might face tariffs because her negotiations foul up.

It would be pure comedy.

Similarly they can't simultaneously claim there would be a hard border with Scotland, but not with Ireland.

Tied in logical knots...



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
16 March, 2017 21:59
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
I'd love see May arguing that Scotland might face tariffs because her negotiations foul up.
It would be pure comedy.

Similarly they can't simultaneously claim there would be a hard border with Scotland, but not with Ireland.

Tied in logical knots...

Yeah, it's good to watch because the arguments for Scottish Independence are the same. At least the Leave campaign didn't pretend that experts are unimpeachable and to be slavishly followed...

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 14:03
So its finally happened!

God knows how much influence anyone will have outside the cabinet, but I feel somehow as if the remainer brexiteer divide has actually gone now.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 14:29
Quote:
woodpecker
So its finally happened!
God knows how much influence anyone will have outside the cabinet, but I feel somehow as if the remainer brexiteer divide has actually gone now.

I suppose remainers have to wait and see what sort of deal we can negotiate. If it's a decent deal then fair enough but if, say, the UK refuses to pay in to EU, so EU refuses access to 'common market', so UK refuses rights to EU workers etc etc then the divide will reopen.

Brexit's finally been triggered...
https://swimsweatandgears.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/img_0665.jpg

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 17:03
Quote:
woodpecker
So its finally happened!
God knows how much influence anyone will have outside the cabinet, but I feel somehow as if the remainer brexiteer divide has actually gone now.

I'm actually working in Europe now and actually there seems to be a similar acceptance amongst the nationalities I've met.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 17:13
I'm not not convinced that we won't get two years down the line, the political climate will have changed, leaving will be shown to be a fairly detrimental thing for both the UK and the EU and we turn around and say "You know what EU, we don't really fancy it." It being both sides interest they'll find a way to make it not happen.

I'm sure malco, and others, would say that's just wishful, but honestly I'm yet to see anything to suggest this will benefit anyone*.

* Ok, a lucky few will make a lot of money.

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 19:54
Then again in two years the EU might tumble like a house of cards.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 20:10
Why?

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 21:15
Why should the country change its mind over Brexit?

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 21:30
Sadly I think the realisation that the notion of "taking back control" was a romantic fiction will take rather longer to dawn on most people, and it will be too late.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 21:31
Unless the EU makes an offer so good that Britain can't refuse then I can think of nothing more damaging than trashing the principle of democracy.

No hegemony is justifiable on the handouts you receive, nor should we accept the wilful intrusion on our democracy for an 'easy' life (especially when the judgement of 'easy' is made by politicians).

If this country fails to leave the EU, and fails to show it is possible, then we are part of a Union of fear.

So, while sovereignty and democracy are nebulous concepts, I see no route by which the people would accept anything less than leaving the EU. It means too much to too many of us...

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 21:37
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Sadly I think the realisation that the notion of "taking back control" was a romantic fiction will take rather longer to dawn on most people, and it will be too late.

I think the realisation in the value of control and democratic accountability based on more understandable, shared values will end the argument that we should be part of the EU.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 21:45
The principle of democracy is fine; the idea that democracy means being bound forever by a snapshot of views which if taken a week before or a week later could have been different is to misunderstand democracy IMO.

Democracy is not taking votes and being bound for ever by 50% + 1 on some particular wording of a question.

That's a very simplistic view.

Democracy is about being able to remove a government if it doesn't do what it promised, not a narrow mathematical process.

I wonder how many who believe that a simple majority is the sacred definition of democracy are still more than happy to defend our first past the post electoral system, which rarely delivers a government supported by over half the country.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
29 March, 2017 22:42
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
The principle of democracy is fine; the idea that democracy means being bound forever by a snapshot of views which if taken a week before or a week later could have been different is to misunderstand democracy IMO.
Democracy is not taking votes and being bound for ever by 50% + 1 on some particular wording of a question.

Democracy enables every man irrespective of status or wealth to influence the future direction of their country equally.

From our completely democratic process, came a referendum. From that referendum came a simple question. On that simple question, everyone had an equal weight to influence the result.

At no stage did democracy fail and at no stage did we abandon the principle that everyone decides equally.

Democracy sucks when you don't get the result you want but it's better than every alternative.

Quote:
Stuart Anderton

That's a very simplistic view.

Democracy is about being able to remove a government if it doesn't do what it promised, not a narrow mathematical process.

No it's not. An oligarchy is not justified by the fact you can replace it with another oligarchy. That's still an oligarchy.

(P.S. After 40 years of EU governance, are we not now removing that? Isn't that your definition of democracy?)

Quote:
Stuart Anderton
I wonder how many who believe that a simple majority is the sacred definition of democracy are still more than happy to defend our first past the post electoral system, which rarely delivers a government supported by over half the country.

That's interesting... You argued we should have had a super-majority in this referendum. The remain side also argued that only 20-30% of our laws came from the EU.

70% of our laws have been determined by a plurality for decades. Further integration with the EU too. Calling for yet more than a simple majority is inconsistent.

I like plurality in elections (as long as the choice is open) because it's definitive. Even so, the leave vote was not a plurality. It was a majority!

If I'm happy to act for parliament to act on a plurality (didn't we have a referendum on this?) then I have no problem with them acting on a majority.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2017 23:13 by Substitute.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 08:34
I would argue we shouldn't have referendums. As Stuart says they can only capture a snapshot of time and are rather subject to ideas that can be in fashion for a very short period. For that matter, the weather could, and in the case of elections I suspect it has, made a difference to the outcome of a vote. Do you really want to make a "once in a generation" decision based on whether the sun is out?

The fact that people were terribly informed for this referendum makes a joke of this form of direct democracy, or whatever you wish to call it. What's the point in asking the people when they are not only ignorant, but actually actively misled?

I'm not particularly in favour of a super majority, but I do feel that a vote that has such a slender margin really should be considered a possible statistical aberration.

I think that people will change their minds on the basis that in two years:
- our trade with the EU will have suffered
- our trade with the rest of the world won't have improved.
- many of of businesses will have left the country, they've started to already
- our currency will continue to be unstable.
- I have very little faith in those negotiating our exit.
- one way or another a further vote on Scottish independent will be looming. With possible further disintegration of the UK on the cards.
- there will be no more money for the NHS or anything else
- We will have all the same legislation with no sign of it changing
- Bureaucracy will increase rather than decrease
- immigration will remain unchanged, it will certainly still upset those that it currently does to just the same extent.
- the international influence of this country will be reduced.


Generally people will feel worse off and see little benefit. I take Stuart's point that 2 years might not be sufficient for this to become apparent. However, two years is sufficient for the people currently driving this to be shown to be incapable, they are already look to be sinking, and the next generation will be looking for scapegoats. These people and brexit will look like very easy targets.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 08:47
We'll see (Sm134)(Sm134)(Sm134)

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 09:29
According to David Davis we want everything the same with regard to trade, but don't want to be bound by EU rules and institutions.

The EU call that having our cake and eating it.

The nutters in UKIP and the tory party think we can have that and if we cant they don't mind 'walking away' from Europe and do not care about the consequences, but they aren't rational.

Assuming the government can keep the nutters under control, they need to have a discussion along the lines of, we know we have to get a bit punished for being naughty, lets agree what bit of the cake we aren't having and get on with it.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 09:43
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm not not convinced that we won't get two years down the line, the political climate will have changed, leaving will be shown to be a fairly detrimental thing for both the UK and the EU and we turn around and say "You know what EU, we don't really fancy it." It being both sides interest they'll find a way to make it not happen.
I'm sure malco, and others, would say that's just wishful, but honestly I'm yet to see anything to suggest this will benefit anyone*.

* Ok, a lucky few will make a lot of money.

One problem is the lucky few who will make a fortune from this already own the media and will do their damnedest to convince everyone else that this is the best course of action for the country.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 10:01
Over the next two years, people will change their minds, some in each direction, but I suspect Brexit support will weaken. All the noises coming from May is 'no way back' and if Parliament has the temerity vote against any deal, it's the worst of all Brexits. The view from the other side is that our expectations are the stuff of LaLaLand.
Surely sometime over the next two year, someone is going to say: 'It's not going very well is it? Do we really want to do this? Is it still the will of the people?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 10:10
Quote:
DanWiley
What's the point in asking the people when they are not only ignorant, but actually actively misled?.

No different to every election held in the UK, show me a local or national politician that doesn't lie as soon as they open their mouth just to get elected.



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 10:25
Check out the second bloke, priceless!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 11:07
In some senses it isn't different to an election, but in others it is very different.

Firstly, an election is a decision that, at most, lasts 5 years. I'd be a lot happier if we were to be able to review this decision in a few years time.

Secondly, we're not directly making a decision that we know little about. We're electing people to make those decisions. Or rather people to validate the decisions made by others. It is the job of those people to understand those decisions and essentially what we are voting for is to say "I trust you to make those decisions". I would be going for a third choice if the two primary candidates did as much to earn my trust as the two campaigns did in this case.

There's another difference, an election doesn't (in theory at least) polarise a decision that in not inherently binary. Despite malco's claims our position relative to the EU is binary and its a moments thought to see that there are many many different ways we could have proceeded and the fact we are going for this hard brexit is deeply unrepresentative. Given the result was that leave very slightly edged remain and that the biggest grievance of the leavers was immigration (I surmise, but it doesn't really matter, pick the important issues and apply them). Assuming that reflects the feelings of the people, the best course of action, the one that actually reflects the views and interests of this country, would be to stay in and use, what was, our considerable weight to change the nature of immigration in the EU. A referendum, it seems, does not allow us to do that at least according to Mrs May.

Trev, I deliberately said "-a- lucky few". There will be another lucky few that lose out as a result of this and they'll be pushing to stop it.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 14:03
Quote:
jayeatman
The view from the other side is that our expectations are the stuff of LaLaLand.

Is it really? I'm in Belgium right now, working on a European project with six other EU nationalities. None of them think our expectations are from LalaLand.

Without having asked, I imagine they wouldn't countenance directly leaving the EU, but they all think the EU needs to change significantly. Sometimes for the same reason as us, sometimes for different reasons.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 14:17
What specifically do they think is realistic? That we can continue trading on the same terms despite not being part of the union? That we can have unfettered access to the EU markets AND our own set of trade deals the EU has no control over?

If they believe that then they just don't understand the situation.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 14:20
Quote:
DanWiley
Firstly, an election is a decision that, at most, lasts 5 years. I'd be a lot happier if we were to be able to review this decision in a few years time.

It took 40 years to review the decision to join the EU. Come back in 40 years and you can have that review.

Quote:
DanWiley
"I trust you to make those decisions".

Those people we trusted to make the decision, said to the electorate "We trust you to make the decision". It would look silly if they said "Well, actually we don't trust you now".

But in any case I would rail against the suggestion that is one (or two) best approaches and that you must be expert to know them. There is no best answer, and far better that the many decide, than the few.

Quote:
DanWiley
There's another difference, an election doesn't (in theory at least) polarise a decision that in not inherently binary.

Sure about that?

Quote:
DanWiley

Given the result was that leave very slightly edged remain and that the biggest grievance of the leavers was immigration (I surmise, but it doesn't really matter, pick the important issues and apply them). Assuming that reflects the feelings of the people, the best course of action, the one that actually reflects the views and interests of this country, would be to stay in and use, what was, our considerable weight to change the nature of immigration in the EU.

Ignoring the faulty logic and the complete disregard of the past evidence, the people were asked a question and were capable to decide what it meant.

We all have interests that are important to us. We know many people vote for the Conservatives - but almost certainly not for the same reasons as, for example, Malco.

Here we were asked a question and people decided where their interests best lay and what that meant in the context of the question. Just like an election.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 14:23
On the positive side the £ is going in the right direction since the declaration

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 14:29
Quote:
DanWiley
What specifically do they think is realistic? That we can continue trading on the same terms despite not being part of the union? That we can have unfettered access to the EU markets AND our own set of trade deals the EU has no control over?
If they believe that then they just don't understand the situation.

You know Switzerland and Norway basically have that, right?

No, they expect change. Not drastic change, however and I get the impression they don't want to be in the union for fear of leaving. They're looking for the positives and I think they're finding it harder to find them.

At the end of the day we are all people, the last thing anyone wants is political gestures that make them worse off to tie them in forever.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 15:02
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
DanWiley
What specifically do they think is realistic? That we can continue trading on the same terms despite not being part of the union? That we can have unfettered access to the EU markets AND our own set of trade deals the EU has no control over?
If they believe that then they just don't understand the situation.

You know Switzerland and Norway basically have that, right?

Noway would have been my choice , given the vote to Leave.

But May and Malco are firm that it is not an option.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 15:06
you would be happy for a parliament to sit for 40 years before it was re-elected?

The government didn't say we trust the electorate, the referendum isn't binding.

Elections are clearly not polarised, we elect a Parliament that has representatives from many different, often opposing views.

"There is no best answer, and far better that the many decide, than the few. "

Philosophically why? As a rule many people end up not making a decision at all or at best a compromise.

Don't ignore logic you think faulty, explain why. Frankly I think your unable to answer my points and are just waffling. I've explained why it is different to an election, you've said nothing to say why I'm wrong.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 16:16
Quote:
DanWiley
you would be happy for a parliament to sit for 40 years before it was re-elected?

Yawn...

Quote:
DanWiley
The government didn't say we trust the electorate, the referendum isn't binding.

Nor was the one taking us in...

We seemed to be discussing morals not legalism. Very few people would argue that Laws and Procedure are always right.

Quote:
DanWiley
Elections are clearly not polarised, we elect a Parliament that has representatives from many different, often opposing views.

Still sure on that one? You are saying that elections aren't polarising...

Quote:
DanWiley
"There is no best answer, and far better that the many decide, than the few. "

Philosophically why? As a rule many people end up not making a decision at all or at best a compromise.

Why should the opinions of a cabal of people be worth more than mine, or yours? Democracy isn't perfect but it is at least fair.

Quote:
DanWiley
Frankly I think your unable to answer my points and are just waffling.

Ad hominem... Boring.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 16:25
Stop responding if you'rte truly board. I mean what's the point of having a discussion that boards you. I think what you mean is you don't have an answer.

" You are saying that elections aren't polarising... "

I'm saying the results aren't. We end up with a Parliament that, whilst not as representative as it could be, does represent a wide range of opinions. The way we have implemented the results of this referendum, only one, extreme view has been represented.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 16:29
Quote:
DanWiley
Given the result was that leave very slightly edged remain and that the biggest grievance of the leavers was immigration (I surmise, but it doesn't really matter, pick the important issues and apply them).

I don't generally agree with your politics, but I do agree with you that most people who voted leave did so for one reason and that was probably Immigration.

Given this I also believe that there are going to be a lot of disappointed Brexit voters as the government has no genuine intention to reduce immigration and to a degree can't.

1) We need the low paid Eastern Europeans as we have a significant number of lazy young people who prefer benefits to doing a hard day's work.

2) The Tories won't repeal the human rights act so all the illegals flooding through Calais can't be sent back to where they come from. Not one has a valid reason to be here yet most get the right to stay.



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 16:48
Quote:
DanWiley
Stop responding if you'rte truly board. I mean what's the point of having a discussion that boards you. I think what you mean is you don't have an answer.

No, no. This made me smile.

---

Parliament still commands a wide range of opinions. Government, as the executive, can only pursue one route. Governments have to, and do, make decisions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/03/2017 16:55 by Substitute.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 16:54
Quote:
OutsideBath

1) We need the low paid Eastern Europeans as we have a significant number of lazy young people who prefer benefits to doing a hard day's work.

Is this is a need or a want?

It's rare I agree with an article in the Grauniad but I agree with this one.

Article

"This quest for ever-greater labour market flexibility has had some unexpected consequences. The bill in the UK for tax credits spiralled quickly once firms realised they could pay poverty wages and let the state pick up the bill. Access to a global pool of low-cost labour meant there was less of an incentive to invest in productivity-enhancing equipment."

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 17:16
". Government, as the executive, can only pursue one route. Governments have to, and do, make decisions."

Yes, but that path can balance the opinions of the country. If a government came to power even solely on the basis of distancing themselves from the EU, they would have a wide range of options open to them.

Apparently this referendum decision can't. It must be a hard brexit because 1% more people voted for some sort of exit than voted to remain.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 17:19
As I've pointed out before, of the 70% of laws that the EU has done on us, the only one that anyone has specified in this debate is the working time directive. Now we are going to pass that into British law, funny.

I did in fact hear about another one they did, yesterday on Radio 5 and this one is pretty serious, the one about how many watts we can have for our vacuum cleaners. If they pass that in to statute there will be blood on the streets.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 17:22
"If they pass that in to statute there will be blood on the streets."

And we won't be able to clear it up.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 17:25
Quote:
DanWiley
"If they pass that in to statute there will be blood on the streets."
And we won't be able to clear it up.

true, at the very least it will take ages

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 17:44
Quote:
woodpecker
As I've pointed out before, of the 70% of laws that the EU has done on us, the only one that anyone has specified in this debate is the working time directive. Now we are going to pass that into British law, funny.
I did in fact hear about another one they did, yesterday on Radio 5 and this one is pretty serious, the one about how many watts we can have for our vacuum cleaners. If they pass that in to statute there will be blood on the streets.

Don't mock, that was the single reason why my neighbours voted Leave

The probable implications for them on residency, health care, home ownership and tax just for starters because they spend about 60% + of their time at their French retirement cottage just didn't seem to figure in their thinking just so long as they could buy an over-specced vacuum cleaner that will contribute to world wipe out

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
30 March, 2017 23:43
Quote:
OutsideBath
.
2) The Tories won't repeal the human rights act so all the illegals flooding through Calais can't be sent back to where they come from. Not one has a valid reason to be here yet most get the right to stay.

Under 20,000 people are granted asylum every year, a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands who come "legally". Inverted commas because it is not illegal to seek asylum. Most of that number did not come through Calais. Most are refused.



Stuart

Former ed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2017 13:43 by Stuart Anderton.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 07:28
It is illegal to stow away in lorries to sneak into the country, they are criminals and should not be rewarded with asylum.

They have also passed through numerous safe countries which should render every claim in the Uk bogus.



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/03/2017 07:35 by OutsideBath.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 08:57
Hardly any are. Lorryloads of asylum seekers is a bit of a myth. Most just fly in to Heathrow.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 08:58
Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
woodpecker
As I've pointed out before, of the 70% of laws that the EU has done on us, the only one that anyone has specified in this debate is the working time directive. Now we are going to pass that into British law, funny.
I did in fact hear about another one they did, yesterday on Radio 5 and this one is pretty serious, the one about how many watts we can have for our vacuum cleaners. If they pass that in to statute there will be blood on the streets.

Don't mock, that was the single reason why my neighbours voted Leave

The probable implications for them on residency, health care, home ownership and tax just for starters because they spend about 60% + of their time at their French retirement cottage just didn't seem to figure in their thinking just so long as they could buy an over-specced vacuum cleaner that will contribute to world wipe out

Gaz59

Perhaps you could write this up as a case study for the EU27 to review. I think they would then understand why the British people have taken this step, essentially they are mental and they should never have been let in in the first place. Its not a sad day for the EU at all, they should be having street parties all over Europe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/03/2017 09:00 by woodpecker.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 09:38
Quote:
gaz59

The probable implications for them on residency, health care, home ownership and tax just for starters because they spend about 60% + of their time at their French retirement cottage just didn't seem to figure in their thinking just so long as they could buy an over-specced vacuum cleaner that will contribute to world wipe out

Gaz, is this chap your neighbour?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02064/Sir-James-Dyson_2064492e.jpg

James Dyson suggests leaving the EU over vacuum cleaners

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 15:01
So EU agrees to demand of one EU member, that deal with sovereign nation cannot apply to all territories of said sovereign nation without permission of one EU member.

I think it's time for our 'patriotic' parliament to pass resolution stating that deal cannot apply to Spain without prior agreement of Gibraltar.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 15:07
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Hardly any are. Lorryloads of asylum seekers is a bit of a myth. Most just fly in to Heathrow.

If that's the case why don't we just fly them straight out again on the next flight and fine the airline for bringing them here in the first place.

I guess you believe the Road Haulage Association are over stating the problem then?



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 15:47
a. We accept very few asylum seekers given the size of the country.
b. Leaving the EU makes no difference to that.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 16:04
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Hardly any are. Lorryloads of asylum seekers is a bit of a myth. Most just fly in to Heathrow.

If that's the case why don't we just fly them straight out again on the next flight and fine the airline for bringing them here in the first place.


Because they have the right to claim asylum. If it is rejected then they are sent away, but not before.

This is international law, nothing to do with the EU or the Human Rights Act.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 16:32
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Stuart Anderton
Hardly any are. Lorryloads of asylum seekers is a bit of a myth. Most just fly in to Heathrow.

If that's the case why don't we just fly them straight out again on the next flight and fine the airline for bringing them here in the first place.


Because they have the right to claim asylum. If it is rejected then they are sent away, but not before.

This is international law, nothing to do with the EU or the Human Rights Act.

I'd like asylum claims massively reduced in the UK, but I never said that leaving the EU would achieve this.



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 16:43
Quote:
OutsideBath

I'd like asylum claims massively reduced in the UK, but I never said that leaving the EU would achieve this.

Numbers please. From what to what?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 16:47
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
OutsideBath

I'd like asylum claims massively reduced in the UK, but I never said that leaving the EU would achieve this.

Numbers please. From what to what?

Ideally zero, but I guess if we really had to 1000 might be ok.

Also none should be young, fit men.



Chris Cook - Adopted player 2016/17



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/03/2017 16:50 by OutsideBath.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
31 March, 2017 17:28
So fit young mean can't be persecuted and tortured and don't have the same human rights? You want us to breach the 1951 United Nations Refugee Convention signed by 144 other countries?

The actual number claiming asylum at our ports, as opposed to in-country, which I assume is mainly Heathrow, is around 1,000 per quarter. Of which 30 odd percent are actually granted, making around 1,200 a year, so compared to overall net immigration it's pretty trival. There are problems of course with appeals and repatriation.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
24 April, 2017 10:34
Dear Bath Fan Jack,

I remember maybe back end of last year you wrote a very long post (there may have been a few) where you highlighted a number of issues which were facing European countries, Deutsche bank, elections in France and Germany, Greece debt, something about Italy etc. The gist being that there was no certainty in the EU and a lot of downside risk.

I wanted to have a look at that to see where we are at on those, but I cant find it? Any idea?

My take is that none of these risks have so far ended up in the worst case scenario, although most are still out there.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
24 April, 2017 10:51
Quote:
woodpecker
I wanted to have a look at that to see where we are at on those, but I cant find it? Any idea?
This is the second UK politics thread - the post you're looking for may well be on the first.


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD


Beno Obano - 2016-17 adoptee
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=117

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT UK Politics
02 May, 2017 16:08
Interesting interview with Yanis Varoufakis on today's world at one, about Brexit starts around 19.00 mins

[www.bbc.co.uk]

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