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opti
Optimist
06 February, 2017 21:55
Ha ha. True gaz, true. That boy has a lot to answer for.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
07 February, 2017 09:23
For his size George is actually pretty good at tackling and has massively improved, he also seems to have worked out how to use the big guys weight efficiently without hurting himself, shades of Aikido perhaps

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 February, 2017 09:31
Quote:
woodpecker
For his size George is actually pretty good at tackling and has massively improved, he also seems to have worked out how to use the big guys weight efficiently without hurting himself, shades of Aikido perhaps

Agreed Woodpecker, I have always thought that its because he is so light that he doesn't have any real momentum - he tends to hang onto them until the cavalry arrives. This of course is where he is different from the FHs that make big tackle on back rows and get injured most matches like Bowden, Sexton, Biggar and....Freddie Burns (and of course Jonny in his day with all those shoulder problems).

DanWiley
Dan Wiley
07 February, 2017 10:07
"Arguably? Can we hear that argument, Dan? I don't see it."

He's not my cup of tea, but I can see some would make a credible argument. Those people are probably Welsh, but that makes them geographically unfortunate, not inherently wrong.

opti
Optimist
07 February, 2017 10:09
Will be interesting to see how Lozowski develops - he's not shy in the tackle. If I was George I think i'd be fretting a bit about the summer. If he gets on the Lions tour it might only be on the dirt-track behind Farrell/Sexton, while Lozowski will get an opportunity to stake a claim in Argentina. If he doesn't get on the Lions, then touring Argentina might feel a bit 'B' team.

DanWiley
Dan Wiley
07 February, 2017 10:28
I've always thought too much was made of George's lack of ability at the tackle. No he isn't going to knock may players backwards, but he doesn't need to. It terms of getting them down or holding them up he usually does fine. I say usually as I do recall him waving a couple of players through, then again George North opened the door and took the coat of that winger the other week.

Having a big tackling 10 isn't great, but it actually ruined JW's body. It was only really when he played down that aspect of his game he was able to actually stay fit long enough to get up to form.

JimDaff
Jimbo
07 February, 2017 10:31
I think when England find a 12 who suits Eddie then George will be a bench option at best. As much as it annoys me to type it Farrell is a better Test player; he is more consistant and the only criticism I have is he lacks a bit of spark/imagination in attack.

Awp24975
Awp
07 February, 2017 10:33
Quote:
Optimist
Will be interesting to see how Lozowski develops - he's not shy in the tackle. If I was George I think i'd be fretting a bit about the summer. If he gets on the Lions tour it might only be on the dirt-track behind Farrell/Sexton, while Lozowski will get an opportunity to stake a claim in Argentina. If he doesn't get on the Lions, then touring Argentina might feel a bit 'B' team.

Do you think he will be on Lions tour? I personally think he will miss out. Id say they will go with 3 Fly Halves in which case Farrell and Sexton (if fit) are definitely on the plane. You'd then imagine Biggar will go as he's one of Gatlands trusted few. If they see Farrell as a centre who will fill in at 10 it will be down to Russell and Ford for last place. Think Ford could be going to Argentina!

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
07 February, 2017 10:51
The thought that Biggar might be a Lion ahead of either Ford or Russell is just horrible, but as said, he is Welsh so that gives him an advantage over everyone.
Wales looked so much better with Sam Davies, even when he had the Doctor at 12.
biggar shouldn't be allowed near a rugby pitch whilst he performs his dance when lining up a kick at goal!

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 February, 2017 10:55
Quote:
DanWiley
"Arguably? Can we hear that argument, Dan? I don't see it."
He's not my cup of tea, but I can see some would make a credible argument. Those people are probably Welsh, but that makes them geographically unfortunate, not inherently wrong.

Not really an argument more an unfortunate comment so here is why Biggar wouldn’t be an improvement for George.

Priestland was dropped from the Wales side as Biggar was the choice to exploit Warerenball. We don’t have the players to play that style of rugby.

Biggar has few distribution skills other than shovelling it on to a bulky 12. Our backs such as JJ, Rokko, Watson, Tapuai thrive on good passes.

Backs outside Biggar would become kick chasers as Biggar is excellent at kicking from hand. That is not Baths style of play under either Ford or Blackadder.

Biggar is an excellent exponent of the kicking game, reference Wales v Italy on Sunday but they scored 3 points, when his replacement to the ball to the line they scored 30 points.

I think Biggar is excellent at what he does surrounded by players that fit his style, but they are not Bath players.

Hence Biggar wouldn’t be an improvement for George.

opti
Optimist
07 February, 2017 11:06
For the Lions to work, you have to decide how you're going to play, and then pick like-for-like players as back up to key men.There's no point in picking Ford and expecting him to do the same job as Farrell or Sexton should they get injured.

Of course, you could take Sexton/Farrell as one pair, and Ford/Russell as another, to keep your options open.

George's other vulnerabilities are that he has absolutely no use other than as a 10, and his kicking off the tee is miles behind Farrell, Halfpenny, Sexton and Laidlaw. Hard to see quite where he would fit in the touring party unless he has an absolutely blinding 6N.

The most fun is going to be the squabbling and name-calling that goes on between Gatland and Jones after the tour party is announced.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 February, 2017 11:33
On that first paragraph, what style would you expect Gatland to go with, he has to play to his strengths surely and that is power in midfield. Neither he nor Howley have got the alternative working yet so is it just more of the same?

DanWiley
Dan Wiley
07 February, 2017 12:04
Actually, shipwrecked, we should be comparing Biggar to Burns. You implied getting Burns was a better deal that getting Bigger. George is little to do with it.

I guess your arguments still apply, though they are somewhat weaker. But they all come down to the way we play. We're going to change that because neither Burns nor RP can play like Ford.

Would having top class kicker improve us?
Would having an excellent kick chase game improve us?
I think you're being a bit harsh on his distribution, but ok. Burns has weakness in his game as well.

cb2
cb2
07 February, 2017 12:07
There were more questions than answers after the opening games.

opti
Optimist
07 February, 2017 12:26
"On that first paragraph, what style would you expect Gatland to go with, he has to play to his strengths surely"

I'd want Gatland to play to the strengths of the players available to him, rather than to his own strengths - but that may be hoping against hope.

If I was Gatland i'd be looking at the Eddie Jones template - rock-solid set-piece and absolutely relentless physicality up front; backs who never stop making tackles and don't make mistakes; genuine oomph off the bench; dead-eye goalkicker. I don't think it's possible to create the kind of instinctive attacking play that brings wonderful-looking tries or expect to beat NZ at that. I think the tries can come from sheer, relentless efficiency. The kind of wave after wave battering that brings tries like Teo's on Saturday are much more likely to happen than the Stuart Hogg type of try.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 February, 2017 12:32
Yes, Dan probably, however, I was responding to your post.

Quote:
DanWiley
How so? I'd have thought, for some people, that Biggar would be among a small number of names that are arguably an improvement on George?

The point I am making is that Blackadder already has a concept of how we want to play, probably influenced by Bruce. The main reason I watch Bath is because I love watching the running game that we have become famous for. We could perhaps win playing in a different style but I suspect many the club would be in uproar.

Given the 10's available without spending megabucks to buy out contracts Burns is a really good solution, not only that Todd wouldn't have sanctioned it if he didn't think it would work. (Though I suspect Bruce could force it on him). We can't be certain that Todd had a say but you would think so.

I agree that George has a unique style that can't be emulated but it is pretty restricting in some ways, given that he often needs "the cavalry to arrive" to assist his defence and Homer's boot in case he has a wobbly.

Burns isn't perfect but he is a full season player coming to us after a season of good form at Leicester, you would think our coaching staff could fill in the gaps.

ade1865
Ade1865
07 February, 2017 12:48
I dont think many would be in uproar if we played a 10 man game. It got us to the final under Knuckles. It was when we tried to open up under the sting of criticism about our boring play that it all went pear shaped.

It was boring tho. rugby came second to the beer that season.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
07 February, 2017 13:00
Ford is more of an old fashioned playmaker fly half who can kick goals. He is not consistent enough off the tee and has awful days at times, like a good golfer getting the yips!

However, behind a pack going forward with good fast ball with George in space and with time, he can be a sublime tactician and reader of the game, ensuring his side play where it hurts the opposition most and with his passing he can release backs into space. He has a great talent but has been found wanting on occasions too many times IMV to say he is World class. A World class 10 plays well whatever goes on in front of him, and by his play can turn games around, eg Dan Carter. George is not there yet and may well never quite reach those standards.

When playing for Bath in his first full season for Bath and England, he looked a top class act, well on the way to a certain Lions spot. Now circumstances, his mind troubles, drop in form or others working out how to stop him playing, has reduced his effectiveness. He needs to kick on and regrettably it will not be with us.

You know what you get with Freddie and that is a solid all round, consistent performance and probably a slightly better goal kicker. The coaches can certainly build a winning game plan around him and Rhys and not have to endure George's sudden dips in form, for whatever reason they occur. Consistency to me and availability over a season, is going to win more matches for the club than a mercurial player who might or might not turn it on, however truly breathtaking the entertainment of the magic play may be.

Like many have said, IMV if the rumours and recent press reportage is true, George should be relegated to number two starting fly half at best, and let Rhys settle into the role. The long term future of the club which is dictated by results is more important to me than the hopes and wishes of a departing wonder-kid. And I do mean kid, especially by his attitude to the club, who gave him his main chance, his desertion of his fellow team mates, because he seemingly believes the club treated his father badly. Grow up George and hopefully you will realise why the club took such action, partly decided after the independent enquiry found out the thoughts of his fellow players. The club is more important than anyone player, no matter how good he is and could become.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2017 13:20 by Bathovalballer.

MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler
07 February, 2017 13:49
Quote:
Bathovalballer
However, behind a pack going forward with good fast ball with George in space and with time, he can be a sublime tactician and reader of the game, ensuring his side play where it hurts the opposition most and with his passing he can release backs into space. He has a great talent but has been found wanting on occasions too many times IMV to say he is World class. A World class 10 plays well whatever goes on in front of him, and by his play can turn games around, eg Dan Carter. George is not there yet and may well never quite reach those standards.
By that standard, there's never been a single World Class 10. Not Wilko, not Dan, not Hugo, not a single FH plays well when forced onto the backfoot and unsupported by his pack. They may be able to turn games around to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat - but not on their own. They can inspire more from their team-mates, change tactics to find something that works on the day; but not just by playing better - those occassions are leadership issues, not FH issues.


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 February, 2017 14:17
Like this...Rugby World Cup 2015: South Africa 32-34 Japan

Coached by former Australia boss Eddie Jones, who was also part of the Springboks staff during their 2007 triumph, Japan were committed in the tackle and always looking to attack, with scrum-half Fumiaki Tanaka dictating the tempo of their game and full-back Goromaru putting in a near-flawless kicking display.

Munched up front so ran S.A. into the ground.

Dan Carter is obviously an amazing player but I suspect it help being behind 9 other ABs. It didn't do him much good when Manu ran over the top of him though at 57 mins 28 secs of the match on 1st December 2012.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 February, 2017 15:05

malco
Malco
07 February, 2017 15:26
Sale could not or would not stump up the cash required to talk to him. A wise decision because I don't believe Ford ever really had any intention of going there. He wanted to go to Leicester, Craig played hard ball and got the money he wanted from the deal. Ford gets to go to the club he really wants to play for. Leicester get the player they really desire. We get a massive amount of cash and finally get to leave the last remaining link with the bad old days behind. Diamond gets his nose put even further out of joint. It's the best possible solution.

Huxster
Huxster
07 February, 2017 15:35
Quote:
Optimist
"On that first paragraph, what style would you expect Gatland to go with, he has to play to his strengths surely"
I'd want Gatland to play to the strengths of the players available to him, rather than to his own strengths - but that may be hoping against hope.

If I was Gatland i'd be looking at the Eddie Jones template - rock-solid set-piece and absolutely relentless physicality up front; backs who never stop making tackles and don't make mistakes; genuine oomph off the bench; dead-eye goalkicker. I don't think it's possible to create the kind of instinctive attacking play that brings wonderful-looking tries or expect to beat NZ at that. I think the tries can come from sheer, relentless efficiency. The kind of wave after wave battering that brings tries like Teo's on Saturday are much more likely to happen than the Stuart Hogg type of try.

Quite right Opti, horses for courses, the first Hogg try is the way to beat the inside channel choking defence of the Irish, Argentina showed it as well in the WC, Hogg doesn't threaten the inside channels with his phyicality and is suspect in defence so Kearney is the better all round 15 for the Lions, Halfpenny is a winger.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 February, 2017 15:56
Quote:
malco
Sale could not or would not stump up the cash required to talk to him. A wise decision because I don't believe Ford ever really had any intention of going there. He wanted to go to Leicester, Craig played hard ball and got the money he wanted from the deal. Ford gets to go to the club he really wants to play for. Leicester get the player they really desire. We get a massive amount of cash and finally get to leave the last remaining link with the bad old days behind. Diamond gets his nose put even further out of joint. It's the best possible solution.

I don't suppose you know if the, "massive amount of cash" is enough to buy a third 10 if we wanted one?

DanWiley
Dan Wiley
07 February, 2017 16:04
Presumably we could pay a fee, Bruce -could- do that regardless. The real issue would be the cap so it would be the delta between Ford's and Freddie's salary.

Personally, given the options we have at 10, we should go and find a young talent who currently costs next to nothing in terms of salary and transfer.

by
by
07 February, 2017 16:17
Does anyone suspect that this could possibly increase the chances that Hastings will be retained?

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
07 February, 2017 16:22
no

malco
Malco
07 February, 2017 17:29
Quote:
by
Does anyone suspect that this could possibly increase the chances that Hastings will be retained?

He wants to play for Scotland, very understandably. He's off to Glasgow. Best of luck to him. Jennings is off too, so there will definitely be further vacancies to fill.

MESSAGES->author
Tall Paul
07 February, 2017 17:52
How about the young Sarries 10 that played for England U20s? I didn't see the game but he seems to have had a stormer against France. Behind Farrell and Lozowski for his club, neither of which are even nearing the end of their careers!



Elliott Stooke- proudly adopted for 2018-19

Huxster
Huxster
07 February, 2017 17:58
Max Mallins



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
07 February, 2017 18:49
How about the FH who plays sometimes for Newcastle.........Hodgson?

rodoftherec
rodoftherec
07 February, 2017 18:56
Told you GF was going to Tigers but no one believed me - still think he will definitely be there next season. WAGS are quite a good source if they are the daughter of your very good friend !

bathstigg
bathstigg
07 February, 2017 19:00
Yes Max Mullins looked very good on the highlights vs France. As Priestland is 30 and Freddie 27 a young 10 with bags of potential should be on our radar.

bathhawk
bathhawk
07 February, 2017 19:07
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
How about the FH who plays sometimes for Newcastle.........Hodgson?
Not 100% sure he's right for us but absolutely outclassed GF up at Kingston Park earlier in the season.

Bath-Boi
A.M 180
07 February, 2017 19:08
Quote:
bathstigg
Yes Max Mullins looked very good on the highlights vs France. As Priestland is 30 and Freddie 27 a young 10 with bags of potential should be on our radar.
Now those are hard to find, and ultimately wrestle away from other clubs.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
07 February, 2017 19:08
Quote:
Tall Paul
How about the young Sarries 10 that played for England U20s? I didn't see the game but he seems to have had a stormer against France. Behind Farrell and Lozowski for his club, neither of which are even nearing the end of their careers!

Can't think of any reason why he would leave Sarries for Bath.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 February, 2017 20:03
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Tall Paul
How about the young Sarries 10 that played for England U20s? I didn't see the game but he seems to have had a stormer against France. Behind Farrell and Lozowski for his club, neither of which are even nearing the end of their careers!

Can't think of any reason why he would leave Sarries for Bath.

You think he would prefer to be 3rd choice for the next half a dozen years?

gloucesterwatcher
gloucesterwatcher
07 February, 2017 20:19
For the record : his name is Max Malins

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
08 February, 2017 13:29
I saw the England Under 20 game and MM was very good indeed. Ran the line well, passing crisp and drew a tackler before doing so, kicked very well off the tee and from hand, tactically aware and has a real turn of speed. He definitely has the potential to be top class and will not get much game time at Sarries. Well worth pursing IMV.

The other possibility would be to chase Joe Simmonds at the Chiefs. He is behind Steenson and Slade, and is an excellent prospect. His kicking from the tee is top class, about 90% accuracy.
He is only 20 and although not as talented as Malins at present, could be as good.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 February, 2017 14:21
Quote:
Bathovalballer
I saw the England Under 20 game and MM was very good indeed. Ran the line well, passing crisp and drew a tackler before doing so, kicked very well off the tee and from hand, tactically aware and has a real turn of speed. He definitely has the potential to be top class and will not get much game time at Sarries. Well worth pursing IMV.
The other possibility would be to chase Joe Simmonds at the Chiefs. He is behind Steenson and Slade, and is an excellent prospect. His kicking from the tee is top class, about 90% accuracy.
He is only 20 and although not as talented as Malins at present, could be as good.

Bit of a different situation - Steenson is 32.

HamishMilner
Big Dog
08 February, 2017 16:42
TBH I don't see how this deal can be bad for us.

Burns is a proven Premiership and European quality fly-half and although not as good as Ford will be available all year round.
He is also an exciting fly-half with ball in hand who likes to take it to the line and is a good tactical kicker out of hand too.

Ford in the last couple of years has missed so many matches a year for us when away with England for 5 weeks in Autumn and 7 weeks with the 6 Nations that actually getting a good player in return plus a ton of compensation would not look like such a bad move!

If he is so desperate to move away then better for us to let him and then the mood of the group will be even better than it already seems to be under TB. I do not anticipate a mass exodus of our other stars due to Ford leaving as Watson, JJ, Louw etc seem very content here and actually it may allow them to relax a bit more out on the pitch next year knowing that they are all striving for the same goal and have as much commitment as one another!

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 February, 2017 16:46
I'd feel a bit better if it was announced as a done deal/done deals, at the moment it is still just a quality rumour.

HamishMilner
Big Dog
08 February, 2017 16:59
I suspect no announcement will be made until after the 6 Nations now.

I am finding it increasingly frustrating however that one of the main sources on this lead is Steve Diamond who just keeps announcing to the press the players he is chasing and where they would prefer to go if they leave their current clubs..

Don't know what he thinks he is going to achieve by telling us that GF wants to leave Bath and Sale are interested but that GF would prefer Leicester...?

Just butt out of it Diamond you wideboy!

incastrowetrust
Ayerzawannabe
08 February, 2017 17:07
Quote:
Big Dog
I suspect no announcement will be made until after the 6 Nations now.
I am finding it increasingly frustrating however that one of the main sources on this lead is Steve Diamond who just keeps announcing to the press the players he is chasing and where they would prefer to go if they leave their current clubs..

Don't know what he thinks he is going to achieve by telling us that GF wants to leave Bath and Sale are interested but that GF would prefer Leicester...?

Just butt out of it Diamond you wideboy!

To be fair to Diamond his comment came after the story broke so hardly a lead source.

But yeh he likes to have his piece.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
08 February, 2017 17:18
I think there has been enough time and personnel change for Burns to feel comfortable at Bath.

MESSAGES->author
Garbageman
08 February, 2017 18:26
I'm looking forward to it, too much shizzle flying around for too long. Any chance Billy will follow him back home idc? Apparently the brother with more innate talent in age group rugby

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
08 February, 2017 18:49
Billy is rated very highly by those in the know at Glaws and when in our younger age group sides, he got similar rave reviews.

Two Burns together would really fill up our fly half needs for a few years. Both local lads as well!!!

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
08 February, 2017 22:13
No
and
No

THANKYOU

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 February, 2017 22:30
Quote:
sid the seagull
No
and
No

THANKYOU

There's nowt quite like a warm welcome is there? How about giving FB the benefit of the doubt - let's not get on his case before he has even agreed to join...Local lad talented enough to be on the fringe of International selection it's all going to work out fine.

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
09 February, 2017 10:27
As far as I can see FB is not announced and the other is someone's idle fantasy so under these circumstances I feel free to express whatever opinion I blasted well like.

SQUAWKSQUAWKSQUAWK

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
09 February, 2017 10:45
Quote:
sid the seagull
As far as I can see FB is not announced and the other is someone's idle fantasy so under these circumstances I feel free to express whatever opinion I blasted well like.
SQUAWKSQUAWKSQUAWK

Express away - that's the point of a forum. Similarly it doesn't mean that people have to agree with either the sentiment or the way that it is expressed!

opti
Optimist
09 February, 2017 10:51
Quote:
sid the seagull
As far as I can see FB is not announced and the other is someone's idle fantasy so under these circumstances I feel free to express whatever opinion I blasted well like.
SQUAWKSQUAWKSQUAWK

Well, yes - except many posts back you expressed a strong opinion about FB's personality, and then ignored my invitation to substantiate it. Having an opinion about whether he is coming to Bath or not is of no consequence to anyone. Denigrating someone for no apparent reason is simply obnoxious.

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
09 February, 2017 13:13
Apols if you feel ignored.
Humans close to me description of behaviour in certain nighttime locations is all you're going to get. Although I'm sure my impression is far from unique. Ok?

SQUAWK

tigerburnie
tigerburnie
09 February, 2017 14:57
At a forum meeting with Simon Cohen et al yesterday it was stated that Tigers have been given permission to talk to George and that Freddie is still wanted at Welford Road. It is an option for Freddie to go to Barf, but it will be his decision, at the moment nothing has been sorted, except Kalamafoni has signed for us, but that's a secret so don't tell anyone.

gaz59
gaz59
09 February, 2017 17:16
Thanks Tigerburnie, from that it would seem that George has decided but has yet to complete contract terms and Freddie's position is not yet resolved one way or the other

I can well understand him being peed off and his immediate reaction being to think about jumping back to Bath but I don't see how Bath could have tied it into a two way transfer without his express agreement. If Cohen is being straight then it is not a done deal as yet

malco
Malco
09 February, 2017 17:38
Quote:
gaz59
Thanks Tigerburnie, from that it would seem that George has decided but has yet to complete contract terms and Freddie's position is not yet resolved one way or the other
I can well understand him being peed off and his immediate reaction being to think about jumping back to Bath but I don't see how Bath could have tied it into a two way transfer without his express agreement. If Cohen is being straight then it is not a done deal as yet

Once again, you need to stop thinking of it as a swap. It isn't. George has chosen to leave. He has decided where he wants to go and a deal has been done.

Now, we have a vacancy for a 10. He has to be the best we can get who is available and who wants to come to Bath.

If that is Freddie then so be it, but the two things are not conjoined.

opti
Optimist
09 February, 2017 17:45
"the two things are not conjoined"

They're not exactly unrelated though. If we could keep George, we'd keep George. But I don't believe that the, 'anyone but Leics' clause in George's contract hasn't been loosened by the knowledge that there will be two deals to be done in the same meeting.

malco
Malco
09 February, 2017 17:57
Quote:
Optimist
"the two things are not conjoined"
They're not exactly unrelated though. If we could keep George, we'd keep George. But I don't believe that the, 'anyone but Leics' clause in George's contract hasn't been loosened by the knowledge that there will be two deals to be done in the same meeting.

Bruce Craig didn't make his fortune without being astute with numbers. Everything has a value.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
09 February, 2017 18:19
If Freddie does not come. it could leave us in the cart and possibly stop the deal going through, as Leicester would then have to come up with a lot more cash.

Very interesting but as said many times, If George is set on leaving, let him go and hope we can get a pile for buying out his contract early. If the deal or other deals fall down, it would leave us with a pivotal position player who is not fully committed and has his heart set on being somewhere else. Very unsatisfactory and deeply disturbing for all concerned.

malco
Malco
09 February, 2017 18:30
Quote:
Bathovalballer
If Freddie does not come. it could leave us in the cart and possibly stop the deal going through, as Leicester would then have to come up with a lot more cash.
Very interesting but as said many times, If George is set on leaving, let him go and hope we can get a pile for buying out his contract early. If the deal or other deals fall down, it would leave us with a pivotal position player who is not fully committed and has his heart set on being somewhere else. Very unsatisfactory and deeply disturbing for all concerned.

Incorrect.

Once again, it is not a swap deal. The deal for George is for George. The deal for his replacement is entirely separate.

The Oilman
The Oilman
09 February, 2017 18:33
What I can't get my head around is that all this seems to be going on whilst, with respect to Leicester, they have a severe management problem Surely their priority is sorting that out. But then what do we know.

MESSAGES->author
TCM2007
09 February, 2017 18:42
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Bathovalballer
If Freddie does not come. it could leave us in the cart and possibly stop the deal going through, as Leicester would then have to come up with a lot more cash.
Very interesting but as said many times, If George is set on leaving, let him go and hope we can get a pile for buying out his contract early. If the deal or other deals fall down, it would leave us with a pivotal position player who is not fully committed and has his heart set on being somewhere else. Very unsatisfactory and deeply disturbing for all concerned.

Incorrect.

Once again, it is not a swap deal. The deal for George is for George. The deal for his replacement is entirely separate.

Freddie only re-signed for Leicester in Dec 15, so unless that was a one year deal he's being released early by Leicester. Any fee for that will presumably be offset against the fee for George going the other way. Which would make it a swap?



Stuart

Former ed.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
09 February, 2017 18:56
Stuart, I ignored/ forgot about any contract Freddie had signed and must say he must feel he is being dumped if he was offered and resigned in December only to now be told, we are bringing in someone who is better than you in your favoured position.

So, although not a swap as such, Leicester will no doubt want something for Freddie and personally, it seems to me they hold all the aces. George wants to go there and not be at Bath, we need a suitable replacement which could be met by FB, but at a cost to us. Also FB may not want to leave, and, as he has been playing at full back whilst Tait has been out, he may be prepared to change position.

Although I don't want anyone at Bath who does not want to be here and is therefore not prepared to put his body on the line for his team mates and the cause, I wonder if Bruce said with no decent deal, the transfer is off. Then where would everyone be?

What a mess and the sooner it is sorted the better for everyone concerned.

MESSAGES->author
TCM2007
09 February, 2017 19:49
I don't agree it's a mess. We agreed to the clause in GF's contract, and it seems to be being implemented as designed.

I think most "transfers" sit badly with rugby fans, as such things have historically not been about contracs and money.



Stuart

Former ed.

bathstigg
bathstigg
09 February, 2017 21:00
As with the David Denton scenario my preference would to use the capital from the GF transfer to get Finn Russell from Scotland. I'm not keen on Burns and sounds like he's been offered to us by default.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
09 February, 2017 21:10
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Bathovalballer
If Freddie does not come. it could leave us in the cart and possibly stop the deal going through, as Leicester would then have to come up with a lot more cash.
Very interesting but as said many times, If George is set on leaving, let him go and hope we can get a pile for buying out his contract early. If the deal or other deals fall down, it would leave us with a pivotal position player who is not fully committed and has his heart set on being somewhere else. Very unsatisfactory and deeply disturbing for all concerned.

Incorrect.

Once again, it is not a swap deal. The deal for George is for George. The deal for his replacement is entirely separate.

May be true but it is difficult to believe that Bruce Craig would enter into a discuusion about George leaving without stating that a replacement had to be in place before releasing GF.

Not necessarily Freddie Burns but a replacement. So not a swap but a connection. Anything else implies BC is not commercially astute.

It's not a mess as we can have no idea at what stage the current negotiations are at. They are simply incomplete.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
10 February, 2017 10:57
I am pretty sure Mr Craig is the kind of chap that would, if necessary, play a very hard ball game.

I do not believe he will release GF unless he has a replacement.

GF wants to go to Leicester and Leicester want him.

If GF goes to Leicester FB will be second choice..........if FB comes to Bath then for a year......or more, he will be first choice, ie he has the opportunity to cement his place with Bath then recruiting the highly promising 20 year old to act as an understudy.

I suspect GF will go to Leicester, FB will come to Bath and be given an improved contract, as compared to the one he signed on only December 15th. Oh and in addition as FB leaves Leicester Mr Cohen will give FB a big rucksack to deliver to Mr Craig........the contents will help pay for the new tightheadthumbs down.

If this does not happen then GF will stay at Bath for another season and will have to play as well as he can to maintain the status that he currently enjoys to keep his England place and to attract other Clubs, say Leicester in a years time. He might even end up at Sale(Sm124)


A lesson to all involved here is what has happened to Saido Berahino a young professional footballer who was at West Brom, was wanted by Tottenham a year ago for £20m, West Brom wanted £25m. Jeremy Peace, the owner of West Brom played hard ball and said no, Berahino went on "strike", his form has dropped away, he was reported for traces of the chemical in ecstasy in his blood and he has ended up at Stoke for £13m.

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
10 February, 2017 11:48
I was fully with you Bath Supporter Jack until your last paragraph comparison. I can't see Georgey boy going on strike and becoming a pill popping party animal just to get back at us.

opti
Optimist
10 February, 2017 11:52
It's a funny old situation, where the whole 'transfer' is based on the fact that George wants to go to Leicester, rather than Leicester having made him a 'transfer' target.

What if Tigers ultimately decide not to come up with George's asking price? Given that George is the one fluttering his eyelids at them, Leicester may be looking to get a bit of a bargain.

They don't have finite amounts of money, and given their current woes, blowing a massive chunk of it on the icing, rather than the cake might be a bit frivolous.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
10 February, 2017 12:00
BSJ you realise that it was December 15th 2015? No idea how long the extension was though.

Mauger has said that he wants Ford Oti and it has been widely reported (and summarised in the Chron) that they have agreed the transfer fee:

[www.bathchronicle.co.uk]

And, after a stand-off, it appears Craig has relented but for a price. A compensation package to cover the buyout and transfer fee appears to have been met, with Bath boy Freddie Burns expected to join his home city club



[23/24 adoptee: Will Butt]

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
10 February, 2017 12:38
Just read this on the Tigers fans site which followed a fans forum (think on 7th Feb) with various execs at Leicester, led by Chief Operating Executive, Simon Cohen.

New man (pretty sure he posts here) asked question on replacements for Williams and Cockerill. SC clarified if he means Ford. Obviously we all say "YES!!". Says Ford wants to come here and we want him to come. Dealing with Bath to begin negotiations. Nothing signed with Ford yet, negotiations with him not started yet. If Williams is replaced by Ford he would be "comfortable". Discussed Burns situation. Not strictly linked to GF but Bath will need a 10, if Burns wants out it would be an option. At the moment ideal situation is to have FB and GF fight it out. Those were his words. His tone suggested otherwise, to me at least.

If true, and coming from their CEO's mouth, looks to be so, Malco is right in that FB is looked upon as separate issue but is linked in so much as Bath's need for a suitable replacement. But no negotiations started yet, so obviously this is going to run for a while yet!

The forum notes include thoughts on RL players and that Leicester appeared to have offered Burgess to go there as a back row! A good read for those of you with the time.

opti
Optimist
10 February, 2017 14:00
"obviously this is going to run for a while yet"

The timing will be dictated as much by Eddie's willingness to allow a distraction, so it could feasibly be in the 2-week break after tomorrow's game?

malco
Malco
10 February, 2017 14:36
I think they will be desperate to stretch out a formal announcement until after the Cash, because they will be worried it might affect ticket sales.

MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon
10 February, 2017 15:21
Out of interest (and probably on the wrong thread) but how many tickets sold would constitute a 'success' in clubs eyes do we think?

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
10 February, 2017 15:21
I can't imagine when we look back on George Ford's time we'll end up remembering it fondly, unless of course he does something spectacular to win us the league this year.

... and even then they'll be a tinge of bitterness when we recall his unhealthy desire to **** off.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
10 February, 2017 15:26
I will remember it fondly - whether he wants to go or not some of the rugby I watched in the 2014 - 15 season was joyous. On those days when it is all going for us and he is pulling the strings and letting our backs go it reminds me why I love rugby so much. 23rd May 2015: Bath 47-10 Leicester Tigers (for example).

DanWiley
Dan Wiley
10 February, 2017 15:37
I'll remember it fondly. He'll be among the most exciting players I've seen at the rec and have been a large part of the most exciting season I can remember (and one of the most successful in the last couple of decades).

I'll be really disappointed if/when he leaves. He seems to be leaving under a long running cloud of uncertainty, but plenty have done that before. If he's got the clause in his contract then I don't see why he has anything to honour, unlike some that just broke theirs. Unlike some, who we let go at the right time, I really do expect him to come to the rec with another team and hurt us.

Was it avoidable? I still feel it was, even with letting his dad go. I think it's a real shame for us.

Boldngrey
Boldngrey
10 February, 2017 15:43
He has a clause in his contract and he's chosing to exercise it because he has a

great ... big ... sulk.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
10 February, 2017 15:44
Beer Goggles, or may I call you, "Mines a Pint"

The point of the last paragraph was to say that things can go very wrong if people are left high and dry somewhere where they don't want to be. Not for a moment would I imagine GF popping pills, but I could imagine him getting very depressed and down which in turn would be reflected in how badly he would then play. He is a confidence player and if he was feeling down this would be reflected in his play.

I got a couple of tickets for the Clash last week and they were selling the second tier fast.

I imagine it gets tricky once the second tier is sold because there will be a high fixed cost of opening up the third tier for which you would need to sell x tickets where x was say 5,000. You would want to be sure of selling say 10,000 before you opened the third tier.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
10 February, 2017 15:44
Beer Goggles, or may I call you, "Mines a Pint"

The point of the last paragraph was to say that things can go very wrong if people are left high and dry somewhere where they don't want to be. Not for a moment would I imagine GF popping pills, but I could imagine him getting very depressed and down which in turn would be reflected in how badly he would then play. He is a confidence player and if he was feeling down this would be reflected in his play.

I got a couple of tickets for the Clash last week and they were selling the second tier fast.

I imagine it gets tricky once the second tier is sold because there will be a high fixed cost of opening up the third tier for which you would need to sell x tickets where x was say 5,000. You would want to be sure of selling say 10,000 before you opened the third tier.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
10 February, 2017 15:52
I'm not sure it was avoidable Dan, the fact it is long running says a bit to me. If he was sure he would have sorted it out. Seems like he is letting fate decide rather than stating what he wants and going for it.

He reminds me a bit of the teenager that leaves home reluctantly. I also remember that game, I was disappointed they scored to be honest. Took a photo on my phone and kept checking back on the score on the train home.

When he goes he will be missed, until we get 100% behind his replacement! There will be new heroes at the Rec.

tigerburnie
tigerburnie
12 February, 2017 12:22
From my understanding from a friend of a friend, George went to Barf because of his Dad and is now planning to exercise a clause in his contract to leave because of his Dad. I see no reason to be upset from either our end or yours, he left Welford Road for understandable reasons and IF he comes back, I understand why.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
12 February, 2017 15:43
Quote:
tigerburnie
From my understanding from a friend of a friend, George went to Barf because of his Dad and is now planning to exercise a clause in his contract to leave because of his Dad. I see no reason to be upset from either our end or yours, he left Welford Road for understandable reasons and IF he comes back, I understand why.

What a curious way to conduct your rugby career!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2017 15:44 by Bath Hammer.

supermarinematt
supermarinematt
12 February, 2017 16:16
Quote:
tigerburnie
From my understanding from a friend of a friend, George went to Barf because of his Dad and is now planning to exercise a clause in his contract to leave because of his Dad. I see no reason to be upset from either our end or yours, he left Welford Road for understandable reasons and IF he comes back, I understand why.

If that's the case then GF really does live a sheltered life

Substitute
Substitute
12 February, 2017 18:21
Quote:
tigerburnie
From my understanding from a friend of a friend, George went to Barf because of his Dad and is now planning to exercise a clause in his contract to leave because of his Dad. I see no reason to be upset from either our end or yours, he left Welford Road for understandable reasons and IF he comes back, I understand why.

Pro rugby player has 'Daddy' clause in contract i.e. 'I'm only working for you because Daddy is'. That level of professionality is an understandable reason to be miffed and is, quite frankly, a bit pathetic.

Lest we (he) forget:

Quote:
George Ford
'If you commit to the club, you commit to that set of players, staff and fans. He committed for three years but he’s gone after a year and a bit.

‘There are lads here who would die for the club — those lads who have come through the academy, and other lads like me who have been here for two or three years and are passionate about it.

'The lads who would die for this club sacrificed a lot for [him] when he came over and committed to him and put time and effort into making him the player he was... I feel for those lads.’



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2017 18:27 by Substitute.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
12 February, 2017 18:34
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
tigerburnie
From my understanding from a friend of a friend, George went to Barf because of his Dad and is now planning to exercise a clause in his contract to leave because of his Dad. I see no reason to be upset from either our end or yours, he left Welford Road for understandable reasons and IF he comes back, I understand why.

Pro rugby player has 'Daddy' clause in contract i.e. 'I'm only working for you because Daddy is'. That level of professionality is an understandable reason to be miffed and is, quite frankly, a bit pathetic.

Lest we (he) forget:

Quote:
George Ford
'If you commit to the club, you commit to that set of players, staff and fans. He committed for three years but he’s gone after a year and a bit.

‘There are lads here who would die for the club — those lads who have come through the academy, and other lads like me who have been here for two or three years and are passionate about it.

'The lads who would die for this club sacrificed a lot for [him] when he came over and committed to him and put time and effort into making him the player he was... I feel for those lads.’

Words of a hypocrite?

gaz59
gaz59
12 February, 2017 18:34
Quote:
Optimist
It's a funny old situation, where the whole 'transfer' is based on the fact that George wants to go to Leicester, rather than Leicester having made him a 'transfer' target.
What if Tigers ultimately decide not to come up with George's asking price? Given that George is the one fluttering his eyelids at them, Leicester may be looking to get a bit of a bargain.

Exactly Opti, just like the conversation I had with Angelina a while ago

Me: Look Angie, its like this I know you're desperate to leave that cad Brad and come over to my garden shed so how about you pick up the tab for this meal cos y'know I've got options

Angelina (for it was indeed she fluttering her eyelids): Sure gaz, them pasties were great and I'll stick a couple of 6X behind the bar for you - can we shake on the deal now, please?

P G Tips
P G Tips
12 February, 2017 19:46
________________________________________________________________
George Ford
'If you commit to the club, you commit to that set of players, staff and fans. He committed for three years but he’s gone after a year and a bit.

‘There are lads here who would die for the club — those lads who have come through the academy, and other lads like me who have been here for two or three years and are passionate about it.

'The lads who would die for this club sacrificed a lot for [him] when he came over and committed to him and put time and effort into making him the player he was... I feel for those lads.’

Words of a hypocrite?
_________________________________________________________________

May look like that, but....something has changed. Those words were uttered at the start of last season before things started to go wrong under his dad's coaching regime. Since then his dad has been fired because the squad indicated that was what they wanted - I could see that, if that happened to me, I would take a different view of my workmates - which might just alter my view of what "commitment to the club" means.

Wrong? Probably.

Unsettling? Pretty likely.

Who is to say, hand on heart, that they would rise above the reaction to quit in those circumstances?

PG

Substitute
Substitute
12 February, 2017 20:40
Quote:
P G Tips

May look like that, but....something has changed.

Something had changed for the person he was referring to.Didn't stop him making the comments then and doesn't make them any less applicable now.

Quote:
P G Tips
Who is to say, hand on heart, that they would rise above the reaction to quit in those circumstances?

In many ways the problem isn't how he reacted to the dismissal of his father but that his 'commitment' from day one, was so obviously conditional on his father's suggestion and presence - which just makes the words all the more hollow.

So yes, he absolutely face the charge he levelled at another player - I suspect he doesn't care.

MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon
12 February, 2017 20:42
Well this is deep, from Freddie Burns Instagram page an hour ago....

"freddieburns💭 "Life is too short to wake up in the morning with regrets. So love the people who treat you right, forget about the ones who don't and believe that everything happens for a reason. If you get a chance, take it. If it changes your life, let it. Nobody said that it would be easy, they just promised it would be worth it"

Salmon



Adopted Player 18-19: Anthony Perenise
Adopted Player 17-18 & 16-17: Dave Attwood
Adopted Player 15-16: Matt Garvey

fat lock
fat lock
12 February, 2017 20:53
I think he does care
I think it's a combination of factors.
1. He was upset with what his Dad did, how that was dealt with, and how the squad have expressed their feelings about his Dad.
2. He's not enjoying his club rugby as much as he did - but being a professional he is carrying on as best as he can.
3. He knows he's not playing as well as he can. Hanging onto his England berth by his fingernails at present.
3. He probably feels that for him to return to his best (and then improve) he needs to move clubs - he needs a fresh start. Given all the turmoil in his career at present returning to somewhere where he knows people will suit him better.

Hope it works out for him.
More importantly hope his replacement is happy at Bath and performs for us.

DanWiley
Dan Wiley
12 February, 2017 21:27
Did the clause in his contract have anything to do with his dad? I assumed it was a fairly standard the year option.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
12 February, 2017 21:50
For those wanting Finn Russell I assume you watched his kick just before half time today?

MESSAGES->author
Coalminer
12 February, 2017 22:05
I would be very happy if Finn Russell decided to play for Bath.

Boldngrey
Boldngrey
12 February, 2017 22:16
Quote:
Coalminer
I would be very happy if Finn Russell decided to play for Bath.

....as long as someone else takes the place kicks.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
12 February, 2017 22:25
Quote:
Coalminer
I would be very happy if Finn Russell decided to play for Bath.

Hard to disagree but he does play a very high risk game!

The Oilman
The Oilman
12 February, 2017 22:25
Quote:
fat lock
I think he does care
I think it's a combination of factors.
1. He was upset with what his Dad did, how that was dealt with, and how the squad have expressed their feelings about his Dad.
2. He's not enjoying his club rugby as much as he did - but being a professional he is carrying on as best as he can.
3. He knows he's not playing as well as he can. Hanging onto his England berth by his fingernails at present.
3. He probably feels that for him to return to his best (and then improve) he needs to move clubs - he needs a fresh start. Given all the turmoil in his career at present returning to somewhere where he knows people will suit him better.

Hope it works out for him.
More importantly hope his replacement is happy at Bath and performs for us.

Point 3, You can't say Leicester is without turmoil. Frying pan to fire springs to mind.

MESSAGES->author
Widcombe boy
12 February, 2017 22:27
Some sense in all this, well spoken PG. That would be my take on it too.

Boldngrey
Boldngrey
12 February, 2017 22:29
Quote:
The Oilman
Quote:
fat lock
I think he does care
I think it's a combination of factors.
1. He was upset with what his Dad did, how that was dealt with, and how the squad have expressed their feelings about his Dad.
2. He's not enjoying his club rugby as much as he did - but being a professional he is carrying on as best as he can.
3. He knows he's not playing as well as he can. Hanging onto his England berth by his fingernails at present.
3. He probably feels that for him to return to his best (and then improve) he needs to move clubs - he needs a fresh start. Given all the turmoil in his career at present returning to somewhere where he knows people will suit him better.

Hope it works out for him.
More importantly hope his replacement is happy at Bath and performs for us.

Point 3, You can't say Leicester is without turmoil. Frying pan to fire springs to mind.



Points 1 & 2 (and 3?)

Under Toddy this is a great opportunity for a new start.

I still say it's just a big sulk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2017 22:30 by Boldngrey.

MESSAGES->author
Widcombe boy
12 February, 2017 22:29
Quote:
BathMatt53
For those wanting Finn Russell I assume you watched his kick just before half time today?

Rushed unecessaarly by Pyper, when he still had 30 secs to take the kick

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