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Pie-Half
Pie-Half (IP Logged)

Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 15:32
Based on the fact that a dozen or so (hopefully more) England players will be away with the Lions in the Summer, and that several players may well be rested, who do people will be the opening line up for the first test in Argentina.

1-Genge
2-Hartley
3-Sinkler
4-Kruis
5-Ewels
6-Williams
7-Underhill
8-Zach

9-Robson
10-Lozovski
11-Rocco
12-Teo
13-Slade
14-Wade
15-Haley



Andy Goode's body double.

Bring back rucking and speed up the game. Simple, for rucks sake.

Tom Homer - Adopted player 2016/17

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 15:41
posted this at virtually the same time on the 'England' thread:

Genge
George/Taylor/Hartley even
Sinckler
Kruis
Ewels
Underhill
Hughes
Robshaw

Robson/Simpson/Spencer
Lozowski

Slade
Te'o

Wade
Roko
Lewington/Haley


I'd also really like to see if Eddie could get the best out of Ben Morgan, and there's always the possibility that Manu will make the tour too.

Does he take another 10 to supplement Lozowski/Slade, and if so is that an old hand such as Freddie/Cipriani, or a real youngster such as Brophy-Clews. And, given that Eddie is never going to promote Wade or Roko is he better off looking at a couple of real youngsters in that position?

Should Genge/Sinckler stay as 'impact' players with the likes of Brookes/Mullan filling the starting place? Going to be fascinating.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2017 15:49 by Optimist.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 15:51
Its surprising that Kruis, who many thought world-class a few months ago, isn't reckoned to be joining the Lions.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 15:54
Can't fault the logic on individual selections there but bigger picture lacks leaders for what will be a very difficult tour and EJ will want some good results

That must mean places for Robshaw and probably Hartley but I would bank on Brown being there to add the leadership from the back whatever ere people think EJ seems to rate him

Cipriani has big game experience and has played overseas - that could be a deciding factor for starting 10

If Daley doesn't go to NZ then wouldn't he be at 13 with Teo at 12?

Zach is not at that level yet even though EJ has named him as someone he has on his radar

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 16:05
I just can't see how Gatland can ignore Daly. Tours like that are crying out for someone who can cover 2-3 positions. Even as a winger, I'd take him, though cementhead will probably pick Cuthbert.

Brown is a tricky one. I wouldn't like to be his cat if he misses out on both Lions and the England tour, but England simply have to move on from him. The ideal, from an England perspective, would be if at least one of Daly, Watson, Nowell miss out on the Lions, because, for me, one of them has got to be lining up at 15 this autumn.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 16:11
If squad development is a tour aim (I guess it must be), the overrriding requirement is surely to nurture a group of turnover specialists.

This is where England struggled in all 3 of their close 6 N games -France, Wales, Ireland.

Underhill has a fine reputation here, but is not yet tested at top level. I think, from what I have seen of Zach Mercer that he could develop the skill and he certainly has the more "traditional" virtues of an open-side -pace, support play and tackling. Wasps have Thompson and Sam Jones who Eddie will want to look at, while Exeter's 2 No6s -Armand and Ewers are powerful over the ball too.

He will also want to develop some depth at prop. LH does not look too bad but TH needs some work - so Brooks or Hill may get chances as backup to Sinckler.


PG

 
Awp24975
Awp24975 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 16:18
Think Kruis could make a late run for the Lions. So if everyone is fit, taking out the few I think will be in NZ will go:

Marler
George
Sinkler
Lawes
Ewells
Robshaw
Haskell
Hughes

Care
Ford

May
Slade
Teo
Rocco
Hayley

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 16:26
Genge
Taylor
Sinckler
Ewels
Lawes
Ewers
Underhill
Hughes

Robson
Ford/Lozowski
May
Slade
Daly
Roko/Nowell
Watson

Is what I'd like to see but is very young and mostly inexperienced. All depends on whom may get a surprise Lions call up but I am on the fence with Watson/Ford/Daly and you'd suspect there to be more wise heads in there depending on whether Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell, Launchbury, Kruis all get call ups or not.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 16:29
[quote P G Tips] while Exeter's 2 No6s - Armand and Ewers are powerful over the ball too.

Definitely agree with this, particularly given Exe league position and Ewers should also be nice and fresh after missing most of the year. Did Devoto just fall off the edge of the earth - never seems to get mentioned by anyone any more despite him being 'the next big thing' for so long. Same with Beaumont and H.Mallinder?

James Short would be worth a look he has been scoring tries for fun.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 16:42
Ewers should get a shot. Devoto might sneak onto the plane.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:05
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Its surprising that Kruis, who many thought world-class a few months ago, isn't reckoned to be joining the Lions.

Kruis is top, top quality, but he's been injured. It'd be a massive surprise if he were picked for the Lions based on no form or fitness.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:09
Whatever happens, lock isn't going to be a big problem for England. Big Dave Atwood is no slouch either.

 
Huxster
Huxster (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:11
I'd like to see some young flyers go that kid at Sarries for starters HUghes will benefit a lot from the tour as well.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:17
This is interesting:

What does Jones think of his squad?

After two Six Nations in charge, Jones runs the rule over his England squad:

Front row: "We don't have three tightheads. We've got Dan Cole doing an exceptional job, we've got Kyle Sinckler coming through. We want Paul Hill to come through, and we want one more in that position to come through. The rest of the front row is pretty good."

Second row: "At lock we're exceptional. At this stage Maro Itoje is essentially a lock who can fill in at the back row. Courtney Lawes is the same and that adds great flexibility."

Back row: "Like always we still need to revise the back row and see how we can improve it."

Half-backs: "We need a third scrum-half, but for fly-halves we're good."

Centres: "We're good at 12 and at 13."

Wingers: "We're outstanding for wings."

Full-back: "We're still looking for other options. We do need a couple of other guys, but I think they are within the squad."

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:26
Until Gatland picks his lions its hard to know who Eddie will have.


Even then last time, Corbisiero got taken from England to the Lions (Before the tour) then 12 trees (wow) and Christian Wade (wow again) went to the lions.

The Argentina games are on 10th and 17th June, by the second match the lions will have had ample opportunity to get broken with club games on 3rd, 7th, 10th and 13th.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:33
In 2013, besides supplying 11 Lions (after a couple of late call ups), 8 senior players were given the summer off (Robshaw, Waldrom, Haskell, Botha, Care, Flood, Barritt, Ashton).
I doubt Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Wood, Lawes, Care, Brown will be off to NZL but could some of them be rested this summer?
I guess if fit again, Robshaw and Kruis would go and Hughes because he's new to the team.
You would think Clifford, Taylor, Mullan, Catt, Hill, Harrison and Beaumont will go. Sadly, I can see Yarde and May going and blocking more exciting players from progressing.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
20 March, 2017 17:33
Why does Jones overlook the form scrum half in the league, ie Robson, who IMO is streets better and younger than Youngs and Care?

Its the same as ignoring Roko's try scoring abilities.

 
Pie-Half
Pie-Half (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 09:18
[www.punditarena.com]

Not sure about Woodward from Bristol, maybe he is going to take a chunk of u20s from last couple of years...



Andy Goode's body double.

Bring back rucking and speed up the game. Simple, for rucks sake.

Tom Homer - Adopted player 2016/17

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 09:25
I am confused - is Odogwu getting game time or not? Also - is 3 tries in 8 caps "some strike rate".

I agree with SCW - only pick people who you could see getting into the side for the next WC. That is why it was such a waste to see Wood on the bench in the 6N. Is `Clifford really so bad?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 09:48
According to SCW on R5 sunday, according to what Eddie told him, he wanted to build a platform of confidence and culture of success for year 1 and 2 (2 x 6N). From now on its all about the WC

 
Boldngrey
Boldngrey (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 10:07
Quote:
hasta
Ewers should get a shot. Devoto might sneak onto the plane.

Interesting that Devo seems to have fallen right of the frame.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 10:45
Main guys I'd like to see in the Mix:

LCD, Genge, Sinkler, Underhill, Mercer, Robson/Maunder, Slade, Merchant and one of the current u20 wings like Cokanasiga.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 10:52
Quote:
by
Main guys I'd like to see in the Mix:
LCD, Genge, Sinkler, Underhill, Mercer, Robson/Maunder, Slade, Merchant and one of the current u20 wings like Cokanasiga.

I would have thought that someone like Nathan Earle would be ahead of Cokanasiga?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 10:59
To be honest OD's selection in the first place (when he was with us) seems at best a very speculative left-field choice. I don't think he's fallen from favour so much as it was a shot in the dark.

I think this is an area where Eddie has shown more wisdom than SCW, and indeed Lancaster. The idea that because someone won't make the next world cup they are of no use building the squad for the next world cup I think has been shown to be foolish. Obviously, it becomes increasingly true as the next world cup approaches, but we've seen Eddie build a successful squad that has a winning mentality and has passed on experience to some of the next generation of players. From here we are in a good place to feed in the rest of the player who will make the cut over time, we might get a Manu who turns up in the months before the world cup, we shouldn't rule him out. I think we will have the experienced players, we'll also have the talent. Getting them will be a balancing act that requires a particular eye, not a set of rules to be applied.

 
Tiger in the Bath
Tiger in the Bath (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 11:36
Will Evans was the 7 in last years U20s England team and has already spent time with Jones' squad when not injured. Developing into a proper 7

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 12:08
Will he stick with Robshaw, Haskell and Wood or will he try to award some caps to the next generation? Is the Lawes and Itoje experiment going to continue?

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 12:21
CB2

He is going to need a Captain, as most of his experienced players should be in NZ. I am not sure about Wood, but if Robshaw or Haskell do not go with the Lions, I expect one may be needed for leadership.

PG

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 12:43
Id like to see Itoje for captain, i reckon hes going to be there for a long time

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 12:54
Itoje will be in NZ.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 13:33
Make Clifford the captain.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 13:35
Haskell is 32 in April. Wood and Robshaw about a year younger.

I really cannot see Haskell maintaining his Tarzan style through to the next World Cup, and let's face it, he isn't going to turn into one of those players who overcomes age by playing the first 10 metres in his head (or if he tries that, then the results should be pretty entertaining to watch). I suppose it's not impossible that he'll get picked by Gatland - he does, after all, have experience of playing in NZ, which might be considered useful.

But Robshaw is the only one of the 3 who has a chance of actually getting better in the next couple of years, so i'd be starting to ditch the other 2 now. There's no reason why Hughes couldn't adapt to playing 6 (or even 7 Haskell-style), so that's a younger option, and however great Eddie is at adapting to the players he's got, England could really, really do with some pace in their back-row as an option.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 13:44
I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I think Eddie does as well, Moriarty would have been perfect, but chose a different nation, but that sort of player with Underhill and BV would be workable.

Is Hughes fast enough I wonder, he does seem to need to get up to speed in a way that Billy V doesn't. The search continues.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 13:52
Quote:
hasta
Itoje will be in NZ.

aah yes its the Argentina thread i was thinking in general

 
Huxster
Huxster (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 14:10
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
by
Main guys I'd like to see in the Mix:
LCD, Genge, Sinkler, Underhill, Mercer, Robson/Maunder, Slade, Merchant and one of the current u20 wings like Cokanasiga.

I would have thought that someone like Nathan Earle would be ahead of Cokanasiga?

Thats the chap I had in mind.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/Huxster8/Huxster6.jpg

 
SaintED
SaintED (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 15:44
Quote:
Optimist
Whatever happens, lock isn't going to be a big problem for England. Big Dave Atwood is no slouch either.

He might not be but I doubt he'll be going to Argentina. He's in nowhere land right now. Not one of our top 4 locks and not young enough to invest time in developing. Good news for Bath but not for him if he has England aspirations.

Will be interesting to see if Jones sends mainly untested talent or basically as full strength a team as he can without the players available. We're going to face very weak opposition so its going to be hard to judge how good we are.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 16:02
Will Argentina have their top players available? Will be a tough test series if Argentina have all their players.

 
MikeGC
MikeGC (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 16:02
Quote:
cb2
I am confused - is Odogwu getting game time or not? Also - is 3 tries in 8 caps "some strike rate".

Poalo Odogwu is on loan at Sale FC in National 2 North

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 16:37
Quote:
MikeGC
Quote:
cb2
I am confused - is Odogwu getting game time or not? Also - is 3 tries in 8 caps "some strike rate".

Poalo Odogwu is on loan at Sale FC in National 2 North

Crikey - hero to zero! He was pretty amazing earlier in the season, he must be smashing it in that league (4th tier?) against the likes of Luctonians and Hinckley...

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 18:42
Quote:
MikeGC
Quote:
cb2
I am confused - is Odogwu getting game time or not? Also - is 3 tries in 8 caps "some strike rate".

Poalo Odogwu is on loan at Sale FC in National 2 North

Scored tries against Sarries and Toulon iirc. That's a steep and rapid descent!

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 18:52
Well, they did sign a couple of rugby league wingers instead



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD


Beno Obano - 2016-17 adoptee
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=117

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
22 March, 2017 19:32
So what sort of Argentina side will we be up against? WC semi-finalists or development XV?

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
23 March, 2017 13:15
Will basically be playing the Jaguares super rugby team will we not?

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Argentina v England
23 March, 2017 13:17
You would imagine that they will be able to scrummage.


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