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HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
03 July, 2017 16:06
After the result on Saturday which not many of us had predicted but all hoped for - and for once, got!!- there is the biggest test match for a long while on Saturday and I am interested to see what people would do match day 23 wise to better the Lions performance/get the test series win?

My personal thoughts are that Wyn Jones still looked lethargic and we could do with a more combative and athletic partner in the second row for Itoje given I expect the ABs pack in particular to come back with a point to prove. I also believe Make Vunipola is in with a chance of being dropped given some average scrummaging and reckless behaviour in the loose. I personally would not though as have no been impressed overly with McGrath's cameos to warrant a start and Marler for me is equally ill disciplined at times. I do think Marler may provide more bite from the bench though in what is likely to be a fiesty game.

In the backs Farrell and Sexton seemed to work and provide the width required to score tries and with Malakai Fekitoa the likely replacement for SBW I see no reason why they cannot continue as there will not be a monster like Laumape started at 12 from the start. The back three and Davies went pretty well and I would continue with them again.

My changes would mostly be on the bench where Tommy Seymour should be rewarded for good form and could provide something from nothing in a tight game (as well as some Scottish representation finally), Henderson deserves a shot and Marler comes in for McGrath.

My 23 therefore would be;

15. Liam Williams
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Owen Farrell
11. Elliot Daly
10. Jonny Sexton
9. Connor Murray

8. Taulupe Faletau
7. Sean O'Brien
6. Sam Warburton
5. Courtney Lawes
4. Maro Itoje
3. Tadhg Furlong
2. Jamie George
1. Mako Vunipola

Replacements; Owens, Marler, Sinckler, Henderson, Stander, Webb, Teo, Seymour



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2017 16:09 by Big Dog.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
03 July, 2017 16:14
George, mako and Kruis starters for me to provide the solid lineout and althleticism. Mako on bench with sinkler and lawes for last 30 oomf. Backs from either of the first two tests, think both did fine despite their different approaches.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
03 July, 2017 22:38
I really want Gatland to be ruthlessly proactive in his selection for this game. 'Same again' plays into the AB's and history's hands. Get one jump ahead - this week the ABs have to worry about the Lions, so spring some surprises and pick some fresh legs. I'd like to see Tipuric in for O'Brien; Henderson for W-J ( leaving Lawes on the bench), McGrath to start and Marler to bench, Te'o in and Sexton to the bench.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
03 July, 2017 22:51
Jones was superb. Did properly nasty stuff under the radar to slow NZ ball down, so it'd be a tough call to drop him.

The only change I'd make would be McGrath to start and just possibly Marler on the bench. Mako looks a walking penalty magnet.

As much as I'd love / want to see us win, NZ will be baying for blood and they'll beat us by at least ten.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 06:52
Quote:
Optimist
I really want Gatland to be ruthlessly proactive in his selection for this game. 'Same again' plays into the AB's and history's hands. Get one jump ahead - this week the ABs have to worry about the Lions, so spring some surprises and pick some fresh legs. I'd like to see Tipuric in for O'Brien; Henderson for W-J ( leaving Lawes on the bench), McGrath to start and Marler to bench, Te'o in and Sexton to the bench.

But after playing catch-up the whole tour some of the units are starting to show that they can play well together. It doesn't mean we have to play an identical game because we have most of the same players? SOB has been really good and should not be dropped for me.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 06:54
They do need to match NZ in the scrum as this has been a real problem so far. Therefore the most powerful & effective combination would be my preference with the likes of Mako joining the fray later.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 07:30
Looks like another wet night in Auckland which might restrict the AB backs in their 'backlash'.

I see Gatland as a creature of habit rather than adventure and will likely pick a very similar team, however we don't know how many knocks were picked up which might force his hand.

I would like to see Teo and Henderson in, Mako to stay provided he gets the hair dryer treatment and acknowledges how silly his penalties were, under no pressure in open play.

 
Omba
Omba (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 08:05
Quote:
B4thB4ck
Looks like another wet night in Auckland which might restrict the AB backs in their 'backlash'.
I see Gatland as a creature of habit rather than adventure and will likely pick a very similar team, however we don't know how many knocks were picked up which might force his hand.

I would like to see Teo and Henderson in, Mako to stay provided he gets the hair dryer treatment and acknowledges how silly his penalties were, under no pressure in open play.

Surely you meant, "Blacklash"? (Sm14)

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 08:29
Good points, weather will be a factor obviously, giving away penalties as well, also discussed, can't help thinking that there will be another red to even things out! Someone tell me the Lions are too disciplined to let that happen!

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 08:52
Let's hope the weather does not ruin the game - although if it aids the Lions in getting a win I would have no issue and it also did not ruin what was a truly entertaining game Saturday anyways!

I think the ABs will spring a few surprises of their own too tbh with selection. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cruden come in to 10 with Beauden Barrett at 15. Dagg looked lethargic and tackled poorly at 15. Naholo did nothing really for me so might we see Savea recalled or even a wildcard like Jordie Barrett?
In their forwards might Luke Romano - a more direct powerful second row instead of the skillful type - be given a bench spot or even a starting role given that Whitelock was pretty uneffective last week? Will be interesting to see how they respond tbh as well.

As for the Lions I certainly would NOT drop Sean O'Brien! Would be surprised if he does not get man of the tour tbh given he seems to be everywhere for the whole 80 minutes! Has been the Lions talisman this tour. I would as I have said like to see Henderson involved somewhere and the same with Teo getting some game time later in the game as he can actually challenge the AB line.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 10:14
I am now thinking WG kept the Sexton/Farrell combination back for T2 and gave the AB's the impression of more Warrenball to come using Teo in T1. It's the [next] most important game and I would like to see more surprises. I think the use of home union test combinations in key areas wherever possible would be advantageous for the Lions as would playing players in their strongest position. I would go with;

1. McGarth [1st half] - Mako [ to start 2nd half]
2. Best [1st half] - George [to start 2nd half]
3. Furlong [1st half] - Cole [to start 2nd half]
4. Itoje
5. Henderson [1st half] - Lawes
6. Warburton
7. SOB - Stander to bench for the back row.
8. Faletau
9. Murray - Webb
10. Sexton
11. Seymour - top try scorer on tour and a Scot.
12. Farrell - Teo to bench
13. Davies - Daly to bench for OC/Wing/FB
14. Nowell
15. Watson

The penalty count needs to be much lower, the defensive effort needs to be as mighty again and cool heads will be needed when the pressure comes on.



Adopted players: [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Wightwasp
Wightwasp (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 10:20
Nowell and Seymour for Williams and Daly ha ha

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 11:37
Quote:
Wightwasp
Nowell and Seymour for Williams and Daly ha ha

I agree! Not sure the backline needs any tinkering tbh. Seemed to go well offensively and defensively.

Williams in particular has been getting better with each game I think and that back three are gelling well now. Gave two great passes for Watson's break and then for Faletau to score the first try on Saturday. Daly and Watson both x factor electric quick players too.

Seymour has a shout as a bench option instead of Nowell as perhaps more defensively sound imo.

 
Wightwasp
Wightwasp (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 12:15
Don't think they will change much
Mako maybe
AWJ did ok on Saturday so think he will get the nod
If not can't see him in the 23

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 16:45
When the ABs avenged their Ireland defeat they did it with physicality that didn't bother with the niceties of exactly where the mythical 'line' is drawn. That option isn't quite so open to them this Saturday. The SBW red card and the ref who finally stood up against the ABs' god-given right to cross the line with impunity could come to be seen as a seminal moment in world Rugby's balance of power. If the Lions could strip them of the aura of invincibility, then England could be the main beneficiaries. I still think NZ will win, but If Gatland is bold - and his BOD decision shows that he can be - the Lions definitely have a chance.

 
Wightwasp
Wightwasp (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 18:00
Quote:
Optimist
When the ABs avenged their Ireland defeat they did it with physicality that didn't bother with the niceties of exactly where the mythical 'line' is drawn. That option isn't quite so open to them this Saturday. The SBW red card and the ref who finally stood up against the ABs' god-given right to cross the line with impunity could come to be seen as a seminal moment in world Rugby's balance of power. If the Lions could strip them of the aura of invincibility, then England could be the main beneficiaries. I still think NZ will win, but If Gatland is bold - and his BOD decision shows that he can be - the Lions definitely have a chance.
great post

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 18:06
Quote:
Optimist
When the ABs avenged their Ireland defeat they did it with physicality that didn't bother with the niceties of exactly where the mythical 'line' is drawn. That option isn't quite so open to them this Saturday. The SBW red card and the ref who finally stood up against the ABs' god-given right to cross the line with impunity could come to be seen as a seminal moment in world Rugby's balance of power.

This. With knobs on.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 18:10
|Let's just clear up his BOD decision. We didn't win that test because he dropped BOD we won it because he changed the gameplan away from Warrenball and decided to use the backs. We would of won it with BOD in the game with that game plan. It makes me so cross to hear how we won the Test because he was brave enough to drop BOD.

 
Innings
Innings (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 19:30
I'm not convinced about the referees being willing to go hard on foul play. Garces had to stand against both assistants and the TMO, not one of whom seemed to want a red card. As Poite was one of those assistants and will have the whistle on Saturday, we may soon see the Garces performance as a one-off stand-up to the ABs' interpretation of fair play.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 21:19
If three officials say that wasn't a then, perhaps, is part of this phenomenon. I'd be totally unsurprised if that red was given against any other team.

I'm not sure I buy that they get different treatment, but dangerous, illegal play in an area currently very much in vogue for heavy sanctions. If that's not at least a reasonable red for an AB then there's a problem, even if a subconscious one.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 21:22
Quote:
hemington
|Let's just clear up his BOD decision. We didn't win that test because he dropped BOD we won it because he changed the gameplan away from Warrenball and decided to use the backs. We would of won it with BOD in the game with that game plan. It makes me so cross to hear how we won the Test because he was brave enough to drop BOD.

I actually agree with that Hemington - the Lions would have won with Bod. But ... it was a bold decision, and I want to see Gatland make another bold decision - one that will make Hansen think 'oh, I wasn't expecting that. What does he know that I don't'.

And I don't want to find out after 25 minutes that one or two players are running on empty. Shake it up, freshen it up, be proactive.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 21:28
Don't fix what ain't broke. Every match they get more settled / comfortable playing together. OK rotate a couple or whatever (i.e. tinker) but leave the bulk of the team alone please Mr Gats.

Opti you just lost my vote for 2021 lions tour manager.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 21:28
Quote:
Innings
I'm not convinced about the referees being willing to go hard on foul play. Garces had to stand against both assistants and the TMO, not one of whom seemed to want a red card. As Poite was one of those assistants and will have the whistle on Saturday, we may soon see the Garces performance as a one-off stand-up to the ABs' interpretation of fair play.

And the almost universal approval of that decision may encourage the other refs, assistants and TMOs to show a bit more spine. Incidentally, how the TMO could have had any doubts, given he had access to the replays, is beyond me.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 21:30
I will be voting for Jerome Garces as World Player of the Year.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2017 21:31 by joethefanatic.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 21:58
Quote:
BathMatt53
Don't fix what ain't broke. Every match they get more settled / comfortable playing together. OK rotate a couple or whatever (i.e. tinker) but leave the bulk of the team alone please Mr Gats.
Opti you just lost my vote for 2021 lions tour manager.

Ha ha. Gutted! Well, seeing I've been talking for months about the demise of the Lions, and am now more excited than anyone, my creds are long gone! One thing I will stand by however, irrespective of Saturday's result, is that many of these players are going to take till January to recover. Some will lose their Int places. Club DORs and Int head coaches are going to be very peed off when their prime assets come home physically knackered, mentally exhausted and struggling to readjust to their day jobs. Next time round, there will be a lot more shoulder/knee ops conveniently scheduled for the summer.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 22:10
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
hemington
|Let's just clear up his BOD decision. We didn't win that test because he dropped BOD we won it because he changed the gameplan away from Warrenball and decided to use the backs. We would of won it with BOD in the game with that game plan. It makes me so cross to hear how we won the Test because he was brave enough to drop BOD.

I actually agree with that Hemington - the Lions would have won with Bod. But ... it was a bold decision, and I want to see Gatland make another bold decision - one that will make Hansen think 'oh, I wasn't expecting that. What does he know that I don't'.

And I don't want to find out after 25 minutes that one or two players are running on empty. Shake it up, freshen it up, be proactive.

I actually think the winning of the 3rd Test in Australia in 2013 was secured when Murray replaced Phillips at 9. At that point Australia had clawed back to 16-19 & were looking threatening. Murray brought a dynamism to the back play that, for all the forward dominance, had been missing earlier - four more tries followed & Australia were well beaten.

PG

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 22:19
I'd even be happy if he started Rhys Webb on Saturday. Murray's been great, but it wouldn't half mess up ABs preparation!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 22:37
Ha! I tell you what, I'd take that. Exactly the same 23 but start Webb.

On the BOD thing, maybe (probably) we would have won with BOD. But JD2 was legitimately outperforming BOD on that tour and deserved the shirt ahead of him. You can argue that A-W Jones hasn't played in the same way (although he was great last Saturday) but lock forward requires a completely different set of skills than centre and that Lions pack massively benefits from the experience that Jones and Warburton provide - because it's otherwise somewhat callow in terms of international caps.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
04 July, 2017 23:03
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
BathMatt53
Don't fix what ain't broke. Every match they get more settled / comfortable playing together. OK rotate a couple or whatever (i.e. tinker) but leave the bulk of the team alone please Mr Gats.
Opti you just lost my vote for 2021 lions tour manager.

One thing I will stand by however, irrespective of Saturday's result, is that many of these players are going to take till January to recover. Some will lose their Int places. Club DORs and Int head coaches are going to be very peed off when their prime assets come home physically knackered, mentally exhausted and struggling to readjust to their day jobs. Next time round, there will be a lot more shoulder/knee ops conveniently scheduled for the summer.

Agree that they will be knackered. I saw Flouw in Topps Tiles the other day stocking up and I know that he would probably rather have been playing France but I have to say that it was great to see him fit and so relaxed after having his first decent break in about 8 summers.

Lions tours are so rare that I think that the players will still be doing anything to get there in S.A. for the next tour Opti...

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 07:54
Quote:
hasta
Ha! I tell you what, I'd take that. Exactly the same 23 but start Webb.
On the BOD thing, maybe (probably) we would have won with BOD. But JD2 was legitimately outperforming BOD on that tour and deserved the shirt ahead of him. You can argue that A-W Jones hasn't played in the same way (although he was great last Saturday) but lock forward requires a completely different set of skills than centre and that Lions pack massively benefits from the experience that Jones and Warburton provide - because it's otherwise somewhat callow in terms of international caps.

And BOD didn't bring experience and leadership. Unfortunately he wasn't Welsh.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 08:51
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
hasta
Ha! I tell you what, I'd take that. Exactly the same 23 but start Webb.
On the BOD thing, maybe (probably) we would have won with BOD. But JD2 was legitimately outperforming BOD on that tour and deserved the shirt ahead of him. You can argue that A-W Jones hasn't played in the same way (although he was great last Saturday) but lock forward requires a completely different set of skills than centre and that Lions pack massively benefits from the experience that Jones and Warburton provide - because it's otherwise somewhat callow in terms of international caps.

And BOD didn't bring experience and leadership. Unfortunately he wasn't Welsh.

If you want to ignore the first half of my sentence in favour of a conclusion you've already prejudged then sure. JD2 was the right call then. A-W Jones is the right call now.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 09:33
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
hasta
Ha! I tell you what, I'd take that. Exactly the same 23 but start Webb.
On the BOD thing, maybe (probably) we would have won with BOD. But JD2 was legitimately outperforming BOD on that tour and deserved the shirt ahead of him. You can argue that A-W Jones hasn't played in the same way (although he was great last Saturday) but lock forward requires a completely different set of skills than centre and that Lions pack massively benefits from the experience that Jones and Warburton provide - because it's otherwise somewhat callow in terms of international caps.

And BOD didn't bring experience and leadership. Unfortunately he wasn't Welsh.

If you want to ignore the first half of my sentence in favour of a conclusion you've already prejudged then sure. JD2 was the right call then. A-W Jones is the right call now.
If he makes it that is, I quite fancy Henderson. We will see soon!

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 10:04
We should pick our best side and not the one which they think we won't pick. SOB has been man of the series, so dropping him would be like dropping JW in 2003. General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmenay Melchett would be proud of such a plan.

The only changes I would consider are Mako out of the 23 (we need our heads in the fridge for this one) and maybe Nowell off the bench for Seymour. I think having a Scottish guy on the bench would be a good thing for the tour and I think his eye for the interception might be key in wet conditions.

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 10:47
Quote:
cb2
The only changes I would consider are Mako out of the 23 (we need our heads in the fridge for this one) and maybe Nowell off the bench for Seymour. I think having a Scottish guy on the bench would be a good thing for the tour and I think his eye for the interception might be key in wet conditions.

Not sure Mako deserves to be dropped entirely. He is still the best loosehead on the tour imo. Indiscretions from front rows tend to come when they are knackered and Mako giving two/three in such quick succession appear to prove that. A bench role may not be a silly thing given that he is so dynamic in the loose compared to McGrath.

Seymour off the bench would certainly be good. The Scottish were given a tough bargain with squad selection and then their only possible starter Hogg left the tour early - Seymour is very safe under a high ball, defensively sound and has a great eye for an intercept and breakaway try. Seems a great bench option for me if the bench composition is the same as last week.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 10:47
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
hasta
Ha! I tell you what, I'd take that. Exactly the same 23 but start Webb.
On the BOD thing, maybe (probably) we would have won with BOD. But JD2 was legitimately outperforming BOD on that tour and deserved the shirt ahead of him. You can argue that A-W Jones hasn't played in the same way (although he was great last Saturday) but lock forward requires a completely different set of skills than centre and that Lions pack massively benefits from the experience that Jones and Warburton provide - because it's otherwise somewhat callow in terms of international caps.

And BOD didn't bring experience and leadership. Unfortunately he wasn't Welsh.

If you want to ignore the first half of my sentence in favour of a conclusion you've already prejudged then sure. JD2 was the right call then. A-W Jones is the right call now.
OK be as 'rude' as you want but I don't read leadership in anything you wrote (and incidentally when does your conclusion become prejudged). Can't we have a debate without resorting to put downs and name calling

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 12:09
Quote:
P G Tips
I actually think the winning of the 3rd Test in Australia in 2013 was secured when Murray replaced Phillips at 9. At that point Australia had clawed back to 16-19 & were looking threatening. Murray brought a dynamism to the back play that, for all the forward dominance, had been missing earlier - four more tries followed & Australia were well beaten.
PG
This with knobs on. Murray was the catalyst for much quicker ball and really got the back line singing in the 3rd test, BOD or otherwise.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 12:22
Having a scrum half on the pitch does help quick ball. You don't have to be a lions coach to know that, in fact...

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 12:29
Your point being Mike Phillips isn't a scrum half?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 13:08
That would be the inference.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 13:43
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
hasta
Ha! I tell you what, I'd take that. Exactly the same 23 but start Webb.
On the BOD thing, maybe (probably) we would have won with BOD. But JD2 was legitimately outperforming BOD on that tour and deserved the shirt ahead of him. You can argue that A-W Jones hasn't played in the same way (although he was great last Saturday) but lock forward requires a completely different set of skills than centre and that Lions pack massively benefits from the experience that Jones and Warburton provide - because it's otherwise somewhat callow in terms of international caps.

And BOD didn't bring experience and leadership. Unfortunately he wasn't Welsh.

If you want to ignore the first half of my sentence in favour of a conclusion you've already prejudged then sure. JD2 was the right call then. A-W Jones is the right call now.
OK be as 'rude' as you want but I don't read leadership in anything you wrote (and incidentally when does your conclusion become prejudged). Can't we have a debate without resorting to put downs and name calling

I didn't call you any names. I pointed out that lock and centre require different set of skills and experience is required more in the callow current Lions pack (the 2013 Lions backline did not have the same challenges). You're the one whose entire point is the supposed bias of a coach for the nationality of a player. So let's have a debate based on actual things that are debatable.

 
SaintED
SaintED (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 14:09
Quote:
Optimist
I'd like to see Tipuric in for O'Brien

Madness. Take out our best forward to date and the only one making any real impact on the carry and at the breakdown? That's gifting the ABs a win IMO. Backrow is already weaker than it should be with a middling Warburton and Faletau who had little impact in attack beyond running in a try. We really miss Billy Vunipola. He, SoB and Lawes or Henderson at 6 that would be a proper backrow to take the game to the ABs.

Sorry hasta but disagree about leadership from AWJ and Warburton. Neither has been an especially good captain for their country and neither has stood out in leadership terms over this Lions tour. Where was Warburton when the Lions lost the plot in the mid 40? why wasn't he slowing things down and having a word with the troops?
As for AWJ he had his best game of the tour which still puts him behind Lawes, Kruis and Henderson.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2017 14:15 by SaintED.

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 14:17
Come on now gents, passion is welcome but let us keep it on topic and not personal! All opinions welcomed.

I would have to say that the Lions have a great deal of leaders throughout that starting XV even if you lost AWJ from the starting 15. The only difference may be that those younger leaders are a little greener at test match rugby.

The front row, Itoje and most of the backs for example do not have tons of caps between them. Sexton, Farrell, Warburton although all good leaders are not necessarily always the best motivators of their team mates despite knowing the game extremely well. I suspect AWJ provides that man motivation as a wise old head and legend of the game in the same way an O'Connell, BOD or McCaw does.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 14:37
Quote:
SaintED
Quote:
Optimist
I'd like to see Tipuric in for O'Brien

Madness. Take out our best forward to date and the only one making any real impact on the carry and at the breakdown? That's gifting the ABs a win IMO. Backrow is already weaker than it should be with a middling Warburton and Faletau who had little impact in attack beyond running in a try. We really miss Billy Vunipola. He, SoB and Lawes or Henderson at 6 that would be a proper backrow to take the game to the ABs.

Sorry hasta but disagree about leadership from AWJ and Warburton. Neither has been an especially good captain for their country and neither has stood out in leadership terms over this Lions tour. Where was Warburton when the Lions lost the plot in the mid 40? why wasn't he slowing things down and having a word with the troops?
As for AWJ he had his best game of the tour which still puts him behind Lawes, Kruis and Henderson.

Bit fired up there SaintED

Warburton and Faletau know exactly what Gatland is looking for and will probably get picked just for that, to say Faletau is middling and offer little in attack is how do you put it "madness".
Faletau scored a try that many international wingers could easily have fluffed, he was clever enough to brace himself to power over. His place is justified.

More importantly you can easily make a case for Tipuric, perhaps you don't see enough of Tipuric but as a ball carrier you go to SOB as one of several.

But if you want to slow the turnover ball that the AB's thrive on Tipuric is an absolute master, just because he isn't big doesn't mean he isn't worth his place.

It won't happen because its Gatland and he has something against him, but he relented with LW's in the end who he also resisted picking.

 
SaintED
SaintED (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 15:31
Not fired up at all I can see all sorts of things that might be worth changing in the team but to suggest that we drop probably our best forward over two games seems odd to me.

I didn't say Faletau mas middling he has had a very good couple of tests in defence and has been really busy around the field but he's not playing like an 8, not even a SH one like Read, he's simply not getting involved enough in attack and that's putting unreasonable pressure on the few carrying options we have (like Socool smiley and making them much easier to close down. I'd say he's playing like the work-rate 6 he most likely would have been if Billy Vunipola had been fit. Gatland has made some good calls and some poor ones but for me his call not to replace Vunipola with a proper 8 was criminal.

I do disagree with you about the finish, totally straight forward. Williams pass checked his run which in turn checked the defender then all he had to do was power over nothing clever about that for me. It was well-taken but one any good player (which he certainly is) would have expected to finish whether a back or forward.

The point about SoB or Billy or even some of our front rows is that you can send them into heavy traffic and they will make yards and commit defence. In that regard SoB isn't one of many he's one of very few. Tipuric struggles in traffic and whilst he is brilliant if space opens up the last thing we need is another backrower hanging out on the wings.
He's a decent player but f the second test showed anything its that we need more physicality not less and as we're hoping to keep the ball in hand more then his spoiling work at the breakdown will play less part too. I like him and would consider him on the bench but no more than that.

 
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hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 15:33
I think we benefit much more from familiarity than individual chopping and changing.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 16:04
Quote:
SaintED

Tipuric struggles in traffic and whilst he is brilliant if space opens up the last thing we need is another backrower hanging out on the wings.
He's a decent player but f the second test showed anything its that we need more physicality not less and as we're hoping to keep the ball in hand more then his spoiling work at the breakdown will play less part too. I like him and would consider him on the bench but no more than that.

Sorry but there is a bit you are missing, absolutely no disputing the ball carrying points, but I may not have been clear before. Tipuric would not be selected for that, neither would he be selected to play wide out, he would be selected to play in the thick of the breakdown where he invariably gets there first, he holds players up, blocks support players and forces the opposition to give away penalties he simply disrupts and slows any possibility of getting fast ball.

You have to watch him regularly to appreciate what he does, as Hasta says WG will pick on familiarity but its not madness to propose him, particularly against the AB's.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 16:36
Team announcements:

NZ tonight 18.00
Lions tonight 20.00

 
SaintED
SaintED (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 17:13
Shipwrecked I got that but thanks for clarifying that. My point is that for a test series that started with two teams quite keen not to have the ball I think both now realise that they are better off in possession. That doesn't negate the need for players who are very competitive at the breakdown but it balances that with a need for players who can carry and keep possession and those that can hit rucks hard to clear them to ensure quick possession. For me he does neither of those things better than a number of other players.

We are already playing a "man down" in that regard with Warburton who is also much more a defensive than offensive player.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 17:39
Quote:
hasta
I think we benefit much more from familiarity than individual chopping and changing.

If you call it 'chopping and changing' that pre-supposes it's a negative, reactive thing. But there has to be a game of second-guess going on and I'd rather the Lions were proactive. If it's not SOB, then drop Warburton and make Itoje captain for all I care - just don't die wondering. Both teams are bound to be a little bit nervous of overdoing the physicality this time. The ref has set a precedent and so, if anyone mistimes a tackle next time, the crowd will be baying for blood. So what if it turns into a bit of an open, chuck it around game? The Lions are surprisingly well geared up for that with Davies, Daly, Ant and slippery Liam. Having Tipuric to play link man would be the icing on the cake for me. They always say you should take your opponent's area of strength and hit it head on. Why not surprise the cr@p out of the ABs by wrapping up the series with a 45-38 win!

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 17:48
BBC forecast for ko has changed, now probably no rain or much wind but a greasy ball after earlier showers.

We might need an all round game after all - and good handling skills.

 
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hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 17:51
Just not sold on Tipuric at international level. Tom Croft.

I think there's some serious under estimating of Warburton's skill at slowing down the ball and not giving away penalties.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 19:17
Its a Barrett fest with Jordie at 15 and another one on the bench. Thats a strong bench!!

New Zealand Team

Jordie Barrett; Israel Dagg, Anton Lienert-Brown, Ngani Laumape, Julian Savea; Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Jerome Kaino, Sam Cane, Kieran Read.

Replacements: Nathan Harris, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Aaron Cruden, Malakai Fekitoa.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 19:53
Wow theres a surprise its an unchanged team !

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 19:58
In case anyone had forgotten:

British and Irish Lions: L Williams (Wales); A Watson (England), J Davies (Wales), O Farrell (England), E Daly (England); J Sexton (Ireland), C Murray (Ireland); M Vunipola (England), J George (England), T Furlong (Ireland), M Itoje (England), A W Jones (Wales), S Warburton (Wales, capt), S O'Brien (Ireland), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: K Owens (Wales), J McGrath (Ireland), K Sinckler (England), C Lawes (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), R Webb (Wales), B Te'o (England), J Nowell (England).

Pleased for Watson, disappointed for Henderson, worried about Mako and penalties, not sure how our midfield will cope with Laumape, but it's all up for grabs now!

 
Gussieboy
Gussieboy (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
05 July, 2017 20:06
First unchanged Lions Test side since 1993 - hope its not an omen because that didn't turn out too well for us!

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
06 July, 2017 08:31
Re-watched the 2nd test last night, all the hype about winning the series is overblown I'm afraid.

I can't see BB kicking so badly and they have JB as back-up who is a better kicker. They will have an extra forward. They did well up to the closing stages with with 7 not only are they getting a forward back but a good one to boot.

I can't see the same Lions side cutting their penalty count dramatically in 7 days. I'm concerned that the Sexton Farrell axis wasn't really tested defensively, though I think Andy Farrell can sort that one out. Finally it won't be raining!

I can't see a Lions win AB's by 10-14.

 
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woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
06 July, 2017 09:19
Given the single hardest thing about a Lions tour is that the players don't know each other and haven't played together, it isn't a bad call to pick the same team (that won).

At the same time, NZ to win by 12

 
Danchinho
Danchinho (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
06 July, 2017 09:38
Yeah, re watching it, despite being down to 14 for most of the match it did kind of feel like the ABs threw it away.
Not sure why on the back of that Gatland is being lauded as a great coach, a master tactician, etc. I reckon if it was the other way around the NZ press wouldn't have been too impressed with Hansen.
Anyway, if the first 20 minutes to close i reckon it could be a good game. Until the last 20, then i think the ABs will be stronger.



I probably don't know what i'm talking about.

 
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BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
06 July, 2017 10:26
They will kick better but I'm certainly hoping we won't give them as many chances to kick at our posts...

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
06 July, 2017 12:20
That NZ backline worries me greatly. Based on their back three selection alone I think they are hoping to see far more of Beauden Barrett's attacking arsenal be unleashed - particularly the crossfield kickpass that he does so so well for the Hurricanes. With his brother, Dagg and Savea being recalled - who are all excellent at reading and gathering these - it could be a testing evening for Daly and Watson to stay alert.

Watson did well in the first test at gathering one of these in his own 22 and calling the mark. Not sure whether Daly out of position may legit be a worry now having not been pulled around too much in the first two tests. They also won't miss the kicks at goal with Jordie much better than Beauden at goalkicking..

Could go one of two ways IMO - they either have a few test match inexperienced players which we can exploit to sneak a win with Laumape and Jordie newbys, not to mention Savea and possibly Dagg based on last week, nowhere near their best form. OR they click, we see Beauden Barrett finally come alive and control the game and we get really tested and they run a number of tries in like the first test but worse!

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
07 July, 2017 22:14
So Rob Howley's has said we will see unseen plays against the AB's in the 3rd and final test. Massive hype in the press.

I just hope people won't be too disappointed.

 
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BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
07 July, 2017 22:34
Quote:
shipwrecked
So Rob Howley's has said we will see unseen plays against the AB's in the 3rd and final test. Massive hype in the press.
I just hope people won't be too disappointed.

5 consecutive phases without conceding a kickable penalty maybe?

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 08:27
Kick off. Penalty missed on the 10m line by AB's in 2nd minute 0-0

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 08:41
can't keep up...Savea drops the ball with the try at his mercy, Ions take to the NZ line then as pressure builds get intercepted, saved by Watson 5m out.

Eventually Barrett to Barrett with the kick pass, NZ score 7-0

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 08:46
Farrell kicks a penalty, no surprise there 7-3

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 08:55
Loads of pressure on the Lions line, if they had been their usual clinical self the test would be over by now, loads of missed chances.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:04
Farrell again as it goes to 7-6, Watson having a good one but why can't we get a decent pass into his hands. Sexton injured again, first shoulder then ankle. Don't think he will last to be honest.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:09
Messed up line out, so the kiwis let the ball go through hands and Jordie Barrett runs in for a try for 12-6

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:14
For all the hard running, I'd just prefer if J. Davies could pass.

Watson's getting in all the right positions but unless he comes towards Davies (like Daly does) he ain't getting the ball...

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:40
12-9 Currently, Kaino yellow card, For me Sexton / Farrell hasn't worked at all. Not winning the ball up front. Does seem like a replay of last week.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:48
12-12 Penalty to the Lions

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:50
They'd be far better off playing Ford & Farrell who were so effective in England's success. As Todd has said Ford at his best is on a par with Beaudan Barrett & look how effective he has been so far.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 09:55
What happens to the series if it's a draw???

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 10:01
Penalty in front of the posts, Sinkler slips in the scrum, pen for collapsing 15-12. Rhys Webb on for Connor Murray. Owens for Jamie George.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 10:09
6 minutes left, nothing in it. Lions on halfway.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 10:12
Penalty from Owen Farrell 15-15

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 10:22
Drawn series, well well..silence in the stadium. Anti climax...Poite made a wrong decision to benefit the Lions but it still needed to be kicked. Warburton did very well to contest the decision and get it replayed.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 10:37
Love Freddie's suggestion of Rock, Paper or Scissors as a decider

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 11:15
Quote:
shipwrecked
Drawn series, well well..silence in the stadium. Anti climax...Poite made a wrong decision to benefit the Lions but it still needed to be kicked. Warburton did very well to contest the decision and get it replayed.

I agree - but it is a stupid rule and tbh I'd prefer Poite's incorrect application across the game.

Doesn't change the fact we were lucky...

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 11:43
11.6 Accidental offside
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 11:48
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
11.6 Accidental offside
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

11.7 When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Owens definitely tried to catch the ball... 99 times out of 100 that's a penalty.

 
CullyChief
CullyChief (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 13:29
Quote:
gaz59
Love Freddie's suggestion of Rock, Paper or Scissors as a decider

They should have a deciding match in a neutral venue - Murrayfield?

 
Canes555
Canes555 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 13:52
I'd rather leave it as a draw. These French refs do my head in.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 14:00
I reckon we were dead lucky, B Barrett still missed kicks, Farrell didn't. We didn't see any "plays" from Rob Howley, NZ squandered chance after chance.

On a selfish plus side for England George and Sinkler learn't loads, Itoje was for me the best forward of the series on both sides. Watson was good but wasted. Teo is an alternative 12.

I don't think Daly is a wing has to go to 13 or at a stretch 15 for me.

Farrells kicking under pressure was superb and he is only a bit under Daly's range as well.

I think the tour has done a lot to refresh the 'Lions brand'. I also think Gatland will get the NZ coaching job when Hansen goes.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 14:05
I am more than delighted with a drawn match & series however it was achieved. The fact is that this was just one likely penalty amongst numerous opportunities the Kiwis missed. Just because it came right at the end of the game doesn't make it any more or less significant as far as the overall outcome is concerned. It just draws more attention to it. I imagine there were several other dubious 3 pointers missed or awarded throughout the series. This was a test series, not a cup completion. A draw is a perfectly acceptable result. There are plenty of drawn test series in cricket & most of us don't complain. We also don't require every Premiership games ending in a win for either side. Let's celebrate a considerable achievement by a hotch potch of players thrown together for a few weeks and, what is more, including two Bath players 🤓

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 16:29
Do hope the Kiwi nation doesn't prove to be a bad loser and find all sorts of excuses, self delusional stuff. Well - I can hope I suppose.



Matt Garvey - one to add to my List of Forward Talented Adoptees since 2003/4!

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 17:54
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Do hope the Kiwi nation doesn't prove to be a bad loser and find all sorts of excuses, self delusional stuff. Well - I can hope I suppose.
Stay Classy Annie


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD


Beno Obano - 2016-17 adoptee
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=117

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 18:34
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Do hope the Kiwi nation doesn't prove to be a bad loser and find all sorts of excuses, self delusional stuff. Well - I can hope I suppose.

Would that be a bad drawer?

NZ have themselves to blame, imo they were the better team in all 3 tests and blew it either through bad decisions (SBW), poor handling (all the knocks forward with the line begging) or poor kicking from BB. Very un-NZ like actually...

Really enjoyed watching the tour, now back to domestic matters.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 19:06
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Do hope the Kiwi nation doesn't prove to be a bad loser and find all sorts of excuses, self delusional stuff. Well - I can hope I suppose.

Would that be a bad drawer?

NZ have themselves to blame, imo they were the better team in all 3 tests and blew it either through bad decisions (SBW), poor handling (all the knocks forward with the line begging) or poor kicking from BB. Very un-NZ like actually...

Really enjoyed watching the tour, now back to domestic matters.

My thoughts exactly, I have to say that when NZ play England 2018 they are clearly beatable if they play like that.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 19:29
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
11.6 Accidental offside
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

11.7 When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Owens definitely tried to catch the ball... 99 times out of 100 that's a penalty.

But Owens immediately (and deliberately) dropped the ball which was then scooped up by Lienert-Brown who proceeded to attack the Lions' line, so no advantage was prevented.

I think Poite was generous but not demonstrably wrong in law in his final decision. More widely, it was the right decision for rugby as a game. NZ have been dominant for a long time and, although it is up to everyone else to up their game, it still isn't healthy for the sport. Showing that there is hope is important. Plus, I think England will be liking their chances in 2018. If only we can get the ball to Anthony in a little space...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
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joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 19:40
It's also interesting that the NZ press are not foaming at the mouth about it. They think Poite was wrong, of course, but not to the extent of mocking him up as a clown.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 19:51
After all the pre match hype, its all gone very very quiet, little discussion about the series, incidents players etc. Its either anticlimax or apathy I'm not sure which.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 19:55
One other comment.

I was watching the match live on ESPN who carried the kiwi host broadcast. If there is a rugby commentator better than Justin Marshall working today, I haven't heard him. He is everything Stuart Barnes isn't and it was a pleasure listening to his even handed, accurate and expert analysis.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 20:43
Is there a shift in the balance of power in World Rugby.

Eng, Sco and Ire are on the up (Wal are marking time).

SA and Aus are not what they were. NZ have revealed that they can be beaten and under the hard exterior there are those who are fallible.

That series will give Eng a back bone of players like Kruis, Itoje, Sinkler, George, Watson Daley, Farrell and others who have seen NZ on the back foot and know they are beatable. That will be invaluable when Eng finally play NZ.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 20:50
Quote:
joethefanatic
It's also interesting that the NZ press are not foaming at the mouth about it. They think Poite was wrong, of course, but not to the extent of mocking him up as a clown.

Maybe they are aware that there are no better pay-days for NZ rugby than the Lions, and so they are all a little relieved at how it's worked out?

The Lions got 3 massive decisions on which Tests 2 and 3 would have changed; decisions which, historically, have almost invariably gone the ABs way, whether against the Lions or any NH team.

However, I have to eat humble pie on a lot of this - it's been a magnificent rugby tour.

One player that really interests me as encapsulating a big difference between the ABs and England/Ireland/Wales - if Eliot Daly were a Kiwi, I'm pretty sure he'd be a fly-half. He is lightning quick, has good handling skills and a great kicking game. Why do we still seem to prefer our fly-halves to be a bit stodgy, pace-wise? Why can't someone with fast-twitch muscle fibre also be a playmaker? Sexton and Farrell have some great qualities, but the amount of times in this series that they went through a gap only to go nowhere else must be in double figures. Ford and Russell are the best bets, yet they are both viewed with a bit of suspicion.

 
MESSAGES->author
Toast and Marmite (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 21:11
Can we wave a big cheque under Retalliks nose do you think? smiling smiley Awesome player.



"No sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you."

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 21:19
... oh, and anyone else think that fielding Mealamu for the Read presentation was a pretty tasteless touch? Am I being too chippy in thinking that it was quite deliberate on NZ's part and a sign they were 100% confident they'd win and it would be two fingers up to those who can't 'move on'?

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 22:05
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
joethefanatic
It's also interesting that the NZ press are not foaming at the mouth about it. They think Poite was wrong, of course, but not to the extent of mocking him up as a clown.

Maybe they are aware that there are no better pay-days for NZ rugby than the Lions, and so they are all a little relieved at how it's worked out?

The Lions got 3 massive decisions on which Tests 2 and 3 would have changed; decisions which, historically, have almost invariably gone the ABs way, whether against the Lions or any NH team.

However, I have to eat humble pie on a lot of this - it's been a magnificent rugby tour.

One player that really interests me as encapsulating a big difference between the ABs and England/Ireland/Wales - if Eliot Daly were a Kiwi, I'm pretty sure he'd be a fly-half. He is lightning quick, has good handling skills and a great kicking game. Why do we still seem to prefer our fly-halves to be a bit stodgy, pace-wise? Why can't someone with fast-twitch muscle fibre also be a playmaker? Sexton and Farrell have some great qualities, but the amount of times in this series that they went through a gap only to go nowhere else must be in double figures. Ford and Russell are the best bets, yet they are both viewed with a bit of suspicion.

Funnily enough I think that it is still probably down to school rugby, particularly in the U.K. The fast kids get put on the wing and don't develop the skills, tiny kids are scrum half so practice their passing etc. It takes the likes of Joost VDV or Jonah L to really make people think outside the box... Obviously there are now RFU coaching rules at age grade rugby which aim to stop this specialisation but it still happens.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
08 July, 2017 23:39
Quote:
BathMatt53
Funnily enough I think that it is still probably down to school rugby, particularly in the U.K. The fast kids get put on the wing and don't develop the skills, tiny kids are scrum half so practice their passing etc. It takes the likes of Joost VDV or Jonah L to really make people think outside the box... Obviously there are now RFU coaching rules at age grade rugby which aim to stop this specialisation but it still happens.

I agree with this and it is especially reinforced by the fact that we have had age-group rugby, rather than mass-group or whatever. That picture of Billy Vunipola as an 11-year-old; even if he could pass and kick like a fly-half, they were only ever going to ask him to do one thing...

With my very limited experience of NZ junior rugby, I don't think Daly would be a FH. FB certainly but he relies on his individual ability, much more than vision and timing and, I suspect, he always has.

In my eyes, the enigma was J. Davies. There was so much he did so well - and he's got the plaudits - but his passing is astonishingly bad. I think if he could release the winger on something more than a short pop pass, then the Lions would have won...

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 09:22
It was a good tour but we were only ahead for 3 minutes during the whole test series.

EJ spoke at the Oxford Union about the need to increase skill levels. He said that the physical side is about as good as it is going to get but skill levels are nowehere near where they can be. There was some pretty poor handling in the series and this is an area where we need to become world leaders.

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