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MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 09:51
very true, in fact NZ were generous to the lions and oddly it was the Kiwis skills that let them down, Savea dropping scoring passes, B Barrett missing straightforward kicks in 2 tests . Not sure that happens too often.

It will be interesting to see what EJ does with England this season, is he looking for new players with the skills in place or does he develop them in the existing squad?

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 10:02
From Bath's point of view, post-Lions fallout shouldn't be too bad:

Taulupe - pretty gruelling tour, but he was coming off a fairly light-load of a season, so with a bit of R&R he should be in pretty good shape for us.

Ant - will need quite a bit of rest, but whenever he does come back, it will be with his self-belief massively enhanced and fully endorsed as a world-class back 3 player.

JJ - pretty light workload, game-wise, so should be in good shape for start of season - plus - he faces a massive battle for his England starting place with Daly and Te'o (not to mention Francis, Slade, Lozowski) crowding Eddie's all-round starting and bench 3/4 options. Hopefully, Bath will be the beneficiaries of a fired-up JJ.



Sarries on the other hand! Blimey, they are going to be stretched - Mako, Jamie G, Maro, Faz are going to need some serious time off.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 10:45
Quote:
shipwrecked
It will be interesting to see what EJ does with England this season, is he looking for new players with the skills in place or does he develop them in the existing squad?

I read recently EJ's challenge is to select 45 from the 61 involved with England this past season for his Autumn International EPS. I wonder if we will see a changing of the guard e.g. Brown, Hartley, Robshaw making way for other youngsters to get the required experience b4 RWC 2019. England are in a v good place right now but history shows a team needs c650 caps to win a world cup and more under than over 30yr of age...



Adopted players: [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 10:53
You need 650 caps so drop your most experienced players? I expect all three to stay in the EPS. Only Brown is under threat - but he performed will in Argentina.

 
Lenski
Lenski (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 11:18
It all comes down to the quest for size rather than skills and this goes through grass roots to pro academy.This won't change anytime soon.The times I've been involved in coaching sessions where a forward has been castigated for trying something that only the backs should be doing( ie more than 5m pass, grubber kick ect)
I was at an academy coach training session using academy lads (not Bath).
Most of the backs had reasonable (but not outstanding) handling skills but the locks were basically unable to catch or pass (ok lets say it was 50% of passes were dropped or not caught due to poor delivery or catching skills).. it was shocking. Yes they were all physical specimens but could they pass and catch...
I ask why they were in the academy at all and was told they are big/strong we can teach them to play....
Sorry but the hand eye coordination needed to have great handling skills is pretty much set by the time they are 8 not 16 !
Kids need to be throwing the ball around from 3 or 4, latest 5 to have developed the neural pathways or muscle memory to be great with ball in hand. Until we as a union or even a hemisphere really address this in coaching of mini's /youth at grass roots level we will never have the skill set of the Kiwi's.
Rant over (Sm18)

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 11:33
Mercer looks like he can play.

I think where England are short is a SOB type player, a better 9 and also one big guy in the backs. I can see Daly or Watson moving to 15 and then putting a big guy on the wing. Alternatively they might put Teo at 13. We are running out of time to introduce new players, like the London Irish guy, so I imagine we might try Teo with Nowell, Watson and Daly. Wilson looked like he deserves a chance in the backrow for me.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 12:02
Is that really true anymore? Certainly it was in the 2000s, but the players coming through the u20s and pathways seem much better.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
10 July, 2017 12:19
agree with that Hasta, some of the handling in the recent U20s cup was fantastic across the 15.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 00:48
Interesting to read some of the games stats of our Bath players Talupe Faletau and Anthony Watson on the tour.

I recall there was some criticism of Faletau as a ball carrier. In fact he is not only up there in that area but also in tackles made, players beaten, metres gained and minutes played.

Anthony Watson's stats prove him to be the most elusive back by a margin and with TF most minutes played on the tour, shame no-one realised that and passed the ball to him rather than behind him. Should have picked JJ who regularly makes those passes. Full stats here though there are probably better sources.

Saracens might need to review their defence with Liam Williams being turned over most and Owen Farrell missing the most tackles. He did kick most points though!

Just hope those two are not too exhausted after their efforts to replicate that for us.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 07:23
AW does need to invest in longer studs though, half of those tacklers beaten where when he was sliding along on his bum after trying to step.

We are very lucky to have TF and I can't wait to see him in the BBW again.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 08:34
Yes Matt very true there are some players who always slip in contact, really frustrating.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 11:33
Watson is doing well for such a young guy and still has many areas in which he can improve. He plays a lot stronger than his size appears to be on TV. A bit like Itoje.I can see EJ resting a few for the Autumn but after that we will see more consistent selection and a settled backline ready for the WC in Japan.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 11:50
Agreed. England were able to experiment in Argentina and still win without many experienced players. I expect Eddie to chose experimentally against them again and against Samoa, though I expect he will want his strongest available squad for Australia.

IMHO most change will be at tighthead (Cole may be too old by 2019) and flanker. He's also likely to give Te'o some game time to add midfield physicality.

PG

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 13:28
I think Jones knows full well (and the Lions demonstrated it too) that he wants two ball players at 10/12. Te'o as a finisher suits England much more.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 13:30
Quote:
hasta
I think Jones knows full well (and the Lions demonstrated it too) that he wants two ball players at 10/12. Te'o as a finisher suits England much more.

I'd agree with this but I think we might see Te'o starting at 13...

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 13:37
Maybe. If it spurs JJ on to greater heights that would be worth it...

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 14:26
Quote:
hasta
I think Jones knows full well (and the Lions demonstrated it too) that he wants two ball players at 10/12. Te'o as a finisher suits England much more.

Agree, however, the Lions thing was actually a con. There were no "unseen" plays from the backs or double playmaker roles. In the second Test the Lions won it up front because they had an extra forward and the third won because we kicked the penalties and the AB's wasted chances. In reality it was pseudo Warrenball.

Will Gatland play Liam Williams at full back? I reckon we will see 1/2p there as a result of LW dropping so much arial stuff.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 14:35
I think that's an extremely harsh reading. The Faletau try was a direct result of width to Watson then width to Taulupe. Even if you ignore 12, a back three of Watson, Daly and Williams is extremely not Warrenball.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 15:16
I'm a bit with Shipwrecked on this. In reality, I think Gatland picked Sexton and Farrell because of their sheer all-round quality as rugby players, their experience and their mental impregnability much more than some cunning 2 playmaker strategy. If Sexton were English I certainly wouldn't be calling out for EJ to pair them again. They are essentially the same player, and I can barely tolerate one of my 10/12 axis to be pedestrian-paced, let alone both.

I agree that Gatland took it on from Warrenball - but primarily through his ultra-aggressive pressing defence which forced a hell of a lot more turnover ball and chaos rugby than we normally see. I don't recall anything much off first phase ball. That seemed to be confined to Sexton's - gee-I-never-saw-that-coming - sideways wraparounds.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 15:18
Quote:
hasta
I think that's an extremely harsh reading. The Faletau try was a direct result of width to Watson then width to Taulupe. Even if you ignore 12, a back three of Watson, Daly and Williams is extremely not Warrenball.

Yes Hasta but that was 15 v 14, 3rd Test was the proper one, how many tries did we score? Back 3 only used in defence, Williams didn't attack and dropped the ball more than once, Watson didn't get a decent pass. JD in destructive defence, When did 10/12 distribute, The only difference was that it was Farrell not 1/2p kicking.

 
HamishMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 15:50
Feel like I just need to point out that the reason Williams dropped the ball is because the ABs have the best kick chase game ever..!!

He is solid as a rock under the high ball for Scarlets and I expect for Sarries next year. He dropped one clanger which led to Ioane's second try in the first test but other than that the others were all very well contested which is due to the quality of Aaron Smith and Beauden Barrett's kicking - unsurprising as they are world class half backs!

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 16:00
Quite a lot of high balls weren't caught cleanly across the series. Williams is in the spotlight because it just happened to be the one that bounced perfectly for Ioane. There were some incredible catches by both attackers and defenders - Daly, Watson took absolute blinders - but plenty of balls for and from both sides pinging around that could have gone anywhere.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 16:04
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
hasta
I think that's an extremely harsh reading. The Faletau try was a direct result of width to Watson then width to Taulupe. Even if you ignore 12, a back three of Watson, Daly and Williams is extremely not Warrenball.

Yes Hasta but that was 15 v 14, 3rd Test was the proper one, how many tries did we score? Back 3 only used in defence, Williams didn't attack and dropped the ball more than once, Watson didn't get a decent pass. JD in destructive defence, When did 10/12 distribute, The only difference was that it was Farrell not 1/2p kicking.

No, it was 14 v 14.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 16:14
And Williams made a telling pass in the move too. Imagine if Mike Brown had been that middle man!

 
MESSAGES->author
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 16:43
Mike Brown for the first 11 years of his career or the one who went to Argentina (MB 2.0)?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 16:47
Quote:
Optimist
I'm a bit with Shipwrecked on this. In reality, I think Gatland picked Sexton and Farrell because of their sheer all-round quality as rugby players, their experience and their mental impregnability much more than some cunning 2 playmaker strategy. If Sexton were English I certainly wouldn't be calling out for EJ to pair them again. They are essentially the same player, and I can barely tolerate one of my 10/12 axis to be pedestrian-paced, let alone both.
I agree that Gatland took it on from Warrenball - but primarily through his ultra-aggressive pressing defence which forced a hell of a lot more turnover ball and chaos rugby than we normally see. I don't recall anything much off first phase ball. That seemed to be confined to Sexton's - gee-I-never-saw-that-coming - sideways wraparounds.

Yes I know what you mean, in hindsight did we have 2 playmakers, not really

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 17:08
And, as wonderful an achievement as it was, if there'd been TMOs and NH refs for every previous NZ vs Lions Test, that draw and win would not be half as rare as it is. Not only were the refs properly neutral and the TMOs available to check the thuggery, but we ended up with a couple of crucial marginals going our way. What would the likes of Dean Richards and Ronan O'Gara have given for that?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 17:28
We had two players who could offer attacking leadership. That's a good thing, even if they are not the most attacking players in themselves. Both can kick tactically and pass if the feeling takes them. I thin this gives a few problems to a defence:

- In terms of a kicking game, we've got options, they've got more to cover, later and they can't rely on the shape of the attack to give them a guide to what's coming.
- A similar argument applies to attacking with the ball in hand. You've got multiple points of attack right from the off.
- They can't just take your 10 out, lie on him a bit, and effectively kill your attack.

I think the Ford/Farrell axis goes one further by offering that, and the fact you have two distinct players who in many senses offer the compliment of each other.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 18:42
Fair argument, Dan, and I agree with this statement:

"I think the Ford/Farrell axis goes one further by offering that, and the fact you have two distinct players who in many senses offer the complement of each other"

...but, I felt really strongly that if the Lions had brought Te'o on at half-time in the 2nd test he could have sucked defenders in, and that would have meant so much space outside that they could have been walking in.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Lions 3rd Test vs New Zealand
11 July, 2017 19:08
I have far more confidence in Eddie Jones mainly because he seems to have more than one idea about how to attack. Gatland's attritional approach with attacking defence will win games but it is easy to adapt to.

I just feel that EJ could exploit his team selection better.

It's a great result for the series but look back to the last time the Lions won in NZ and the playing style. I'm genuinely confused about what would happen if Gatland got the All Blacks job, would they stop playing risky off loading rugby?

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