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MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 12:51
There is much angst amongst these threads with suggestions that the club haven’t recruited the right players or that what we have is sub standard.
The fact of the matter is that we have those players but many are injured!

I am interested to try to understand whether this is a Bath Rugby problem brought on by training practices or failures of technique, a direct result of more the modern more physical game or greater emphasis on HIA protocols.

Do we as a club suffer injuries more than other clubs? If so why. Is it that are our medical staff and policies are deficient?

I seem to remember a premiership football club dramatically reducing it time lost to injuries by changing its training. Is this a faded memory or reality?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 13:59
Lots of clubs have lots of injuries at the moment. I am thinking Tigers and Worcester in particular based on their discussion boards. Players are bigger, more skilful and faster than they have ever been (Lomu aside) but heads and ligaments etc are no stronger. Like some pedigree dogs or racehorses some of these guys must be at the limits of what is possible without causing issues and some (like Manu) are probably over it. Besides, when someone like Underhill makes 567 tackles in the first 10 minutes its no surprise that it will go a bit wrong occasionally.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 14:13
Yes, Matt I tend to agree, but I also think the HIA's have a big effect as well, at 9 yesterday we had both Cook and Kahn who were physically fit but unusable due to head issues.

Does rugby increase the size of its squads to solve this? I think something has to happen as it is no longer a league of playing skills more one of injury management.

Anecdotally the high tackle law doesn't seem the be reducing the number of HIA's.

PS. Are Underhill's stats really that good?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 14:27
Quote:
shipwrecked
PS. Are Underhill's stats really that good?

Yes I may have missed a few I ran out of fingers after 11.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 17:42
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked
PS. Are Underhill's stats really that good?

Yes I may have missed a few I ran out of fingers after 11.

Shouldn't have laughed at this as much as I did.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 18:22
Seeing as this is on our doorstep does anyone know if as a club we implement this? It leads to a 70% reduction in injuries.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
16 September, 2017 18:26
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked
PS. Are Underhill's stats really that good?

Yes I may have missed a few I ran out of fingers after 11.

You could ask this guy round to give you a hand next time Sam plays!

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/518415/80930626.jpg

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 07:25
Thanks SW.

I've been looking for a handyman.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 16:05
Wasps picked up a load of injuries today. This league is attritional.

 
ratsapprentice
ratsapprentice (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 16:26
Quote:
shipwrecked
Seeing as this is on our doorstep does anyone know if as a club we implement this? It leads to a 70% reduction in injuries.

Yes and no...

Pro player's s&c stuff will do everything the drills these kids have been doing.

The reason you see such dramatic numbers in that study, is because you're dealing with kids who were probably doing zero training outside of the sport itself.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 17:16
Yeah. I don't see anything new in that study.
Rehab and Prehab have been around for several days - he'll, I made a routinised version of Prehab for various sporting kids I sponsor (tailored by sport, and including rugby) 9 years ago. More detailed and more tailored than this routine.

The only new thing here is that they're giving the routine to loads of kids (who wouldn't have been doing any fitness/strength/core training, and who's warm-up would have been a lap of the price and some half-arsed stretching - don't active damage); and to have some academics along for the ride, rather than just doing it.

As for our players - read the article, the routine is
Quote:
change of direction activities (2 minutes); lower-limb balance training (4 minutes); targeted resistance exercises (8 minutes); plus jumping, side-stepping and landing exercises (6 minutes).
I rather suspect our professionals do a little more than that.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17/09/2017 17:22 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 17:23
OK thanks, I'm just trying to get a handle on why they happen and if we do something different to other teams. I get the impression that Sarries for example play the same team week in week out.
It one of those things that even if you have stats they are different to interpret and now further complicated by HIA's which can rule out a player even though he could actually physically play. (Not meaning to demeen a concussive injury by the way).

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 17:28
Ok, in that case..
No, our players are not more prone than any others to injuries
No, Sarries do not play the same team week in, week out
Our injuries are within normal limits for the Premiership, though instinctively at the higher end (but we already know that Todd is more cautious about returning players than the majority). We've just been unlucky with which players are getting injured



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 17:39
Do you not think our injuries tend to be more serious and take longer for the players to be returned to full fitness than other teams?

I've no evidence to support that but it just seems that way to me.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 17:43
I'd say upper end, but within normal limits.
Again though, we also know that Todd puts more emphasis on player health than most, with players taking an extra week when necessary



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 18:01
Check out Banners's injury here, golly, he won't be playing for a while!

[www.joe.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 18:57
Well he played on after the injury... My guess is that with Wilson and Brew back to fitness, Banners could be rotated.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
17 September, 2017 22:43
Highly doubt Watson will be playing for a while, not sure how serious Garveys injury was.

I assume it's a 7 day stand down for concussion, so maybe Kahn and Underhill will be available.

 
fat lock
fat lock (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 07:22
Instinctively I'd say more people are injured tackling than being tackled.
Thus since our tackle count is so high compared to those we've played so far I'd expect our injury rate to be slightly higher than average.
I have no evidence for any of this - just intuition.
Anyone aware of any link between tackle counts and injuries?

Obviously this wouldn't account for training ground injuries or accidents at home etc.

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 08:59
This appointment a couple of years ago coincides with the injury spells we have had the last few seasons. Coincidence - you tell me?

[dailycannon.com]

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 09:39
I dont know if our injuries are worse than others, but just checked out the match stats on possession and tackles made (completed):

vs Leicester: 37% possession, Bath tackles: 135, Leic tackles: 81
vs Sarries: 34% possession, Bath tackles: 126, Sarries tackles: 65
vs N'hampton: 40% poss, Bath tackles: 152, N'hamp: 87

So to summarise, our matchaday squad has made 413 tackles vs. our opposition 233 that's a massive difference



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/09/2017 09:48 by woodpecker.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 10:16
I would not be surprised if the stats show significantly more injuries for the tackler than the player tackled, and by 3 or 4 times.

So having to play without the ball for such long periods will add to our injury woes.
I do also think Todd considers player welfare significantly higher than say Jim Mallinder (who has seemed happy to let players continue to play even when knocked out on a few occassions).

Also, what was going on yesterday when the wasps doctor was carrying two HIAs on the pitch?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 10:27
Found this, old but still relevant:

One third of injuries occurred in differential speed tackles--that is, when one player was travelling much faster than the other at impact. The player with the lower momentum was injured in 80% of these cases.

[bjsm.bmj.com]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 10:39
The 'apparent' issue yesterday was that the video system at the Ricoh wasn't working so they couldn't review footage to check for KOs. Why this meant they didn't both go off the field for HIAs... I don't know.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 10:53
Perhaps if we kept hold of the ball for longer we might get fewer injuries then? That's a heck of a lot of tackles in 3 games.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 11:02
Quote:
woodpecker
Found this, old but still relevant:
One third of injuries occurred in differential speed tackles--that is, when one player was travelling much faster than the other at impact. The player with the lower momentum was injured in 80% of these cases.

[bjsm.bmj.com]

This is interesting, we were rather passive in defence last season and against Saints.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 11:41
Quote:
woodpecker
Found this, old but still relevant:
One third of injuries occurred in differential speed tackles--that is, when one player was travelling much faster than the other at impact. The player with the lower momentum was injured in 80% of these cases.

[bjsm.bmj.com]

Effectively - head-on tackles, then - of which Sam U must have made about 15 on Friday night.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
18 September, 2017 14:07
Another interesting report here:

[www.englandrugby.com]

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
20 September, 2017 07:49
Looks like Wasps are also getting injuries to key players.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
20 September, 2017 09:04
Was just having a think over who we might select v Newcastle this weekend which became more of a task of picking who's left standing!

Of a squad of 45 senior players, 17 are either injured (14) or on loan (3)! Nearly 40% of the squad unavailable after 3 games in. I know some of these are a hangover from last season, but it's left us with just 28 senior players to pick a squad of 23 for this weekend!

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the current situation, with est. time left out injured:

Prop:
N. Catt (2-3 wks)
H. Thomas (1-2 wks)
M. Lahiff (2-3 wks)
S. Knight (3-4 wks)
K. Palma-Newport (9 mths)

Hooker:
R.Batty (2-3 wks)
M. Van Vurren (loan)

Lock:
D. Attwood (unknown!)

Backrow:
T. Ellis (4-5 mths)
M. Garvey (unknown)
S. Underhill (1-2 wks)
G. Mercer (loan)

Scrum half:
K. Fotuali'i (1-2 wks)
W. Homer (loan)

Wing:
J. Williams (2-3 wks)

Fullback:
A. Watson (1 wk hopefully)
T. Homer (unknown)


Not pretty reading! I thought last season was a one-off, but it's looking like it isn't.

Admittedly there are a lot in the 1-3 week bracket, so all might be rosey soon, as long as we don't sustain anymore injuries! (Touch wood)

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
20 September, 2017 16:22
Homer thought to be 2 weeks away.

V Vuuren and W Homer loans are dual registration, so they are recallable IIRC.



P G Tips



Paul Grant: my adopted Player, 2017-18.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
20 September, 2017 16:24
Can't say I'm surprised to hear we're playing with 35ish% possession

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
20 September, 2017 18:51
Its not just us though - loads of teams have been decimated.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
20 September, 2017 22:06
Quote:
BathMatt53
Its not just us though - loads of teams have been decimated.

Not as bad as we have

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
21 September, 2017 09:13
Quote:
ballsout
Not as bad as we have
Is this fact or opinion?
Are we actually worse hit than other teams? Or have we just been hit hard in 1 position (again)


Oh, words have meanings; I'd far rather be decimated than our current injury list - or the average for the prem



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
21 September, 2017 09:26
If they go around training like this then no wonder we've got so many injury woes.

[www.bathchronicle.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
25 September, 2017 06:14
At the beginning of this thread I suggested that we might need to increase squad sizes to provide extra squad depth to cover the injury issue. As a result of Billy Vunipooa's 4 month injury enforced lay off he is suggesting he would accept a pay cut in order to play less rugby.

Are squads injury problems simply because we are playing too many high impact games I wonder?

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
25 September, 2017 10:31
Quote:
shipwrecked
At the beginning of this thread I suggested that we might need to increase squad sizes to provide extra squad depth to cover the injury issue. As a result of Billy Vunipooa's 4 month injury enforced lay off he is suggesting he would accept a pay cut in order to play less rugby.
Are squads injury problems simply because we are playing too many high impact games I wonder?
Absolutely yes; as has been the case for a good 15 years or so; and getting worse as time goes on, as more teams are genuinely competitive, and the game changes to keep the ball in play for longer and each year seems to see another increase in the "value" big hits and winning collisions.
I've long been a proponent of reducing the size of the Premiership, ditching the AWC (and replacing it with a "proper" knock-out cup including the (expanded and properly funded) championship; with restrictions on squad experience. I've also long held that there should be a maximum number of matches / minutes any player is allowed to play in a season.
It's not popular; and would mean less rugby being played per season; but that's got to happen IMO, on the principal of player welfare. Of course, salaries would need to be cut to allow for this as well; which increases the unpopularity.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
25 September, 2017 23:50
Seems the professional rugby playing fraternity agrees with you WT.

So first we had Billy Vunipola

Add to that George North who agrees.

Also Tom Youngs adds his voice.

It really does seem that players are at breaking point even to the pint that Ben Youngs thinks players might strike.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 06:10
Time for world rugby to reduce the amount of internationals being played.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 06:31
Wouldn't that only help the fairly small proportion of players that play internationals?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 06:52
Quote:
OutsideBath
Time for world rugby to reduce the amount of internationals being played.


And scrap the Premiership play-offs.

 
ShortyinBurnham
ShortyinBurnham (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 07:31
Personally I would remove the LV cup, and then have A league games on those weekends. That would give a large portion of players some rest weekends during the season.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 08:01
The Cup has been replaced. By the European Cup. The AW Cup is a shrivelled, misbegotten waste of time and should be put out of its misery. The playoffs are extremely successful and not going anywhere.

I'm in favour of a proper 'A' league - and running it at weekends (alternating with club home games/AW weeks off/Internationals) makes a lot of sense.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 09:34
I've posted something more-or-less along these lines before; but that was in my early days on 'ere; and I've lost.. everything about that original post; but here goes...

Reduce the Prem to 10 teams, and use the opportunity to boost the Champ; giving them a TV deal (If you want to show the Prem, you MUST show the Champ), 1 automatic promotion spot, and 1 promotion play-off spot. Champ then becomes subject to a (reduced) Minimum Standards Criteria, with plans in place to meet the Prem MSC. Both MSCs to include admin requirements. Ring Fence between Champ and ND1 if you HAVE to; but preferably not (Would need to be for any hope of actually happening).

Put the Prem 100% outside of the international windows, and reduce the play-offs to just being a final. Any league point difference between the 2 over the season gets translated to a head-start on the scoreboard.

Scrap the AWC and B⁣ and introduce a new competition with the Prem (10), Champ (12) and 2 invitationals (maybe the Welsh/Scottish, preferably the top 2 from ND1). 6 pools of 4, who play home and away during the AIs and 6N. Players are only available if they played fewer than 30 first class matches over the previous 2 seasons. Cup, Plate, Bowl and Shield SFs - so everyone gets at least 1 knock-out match.

EPRC to play the pool stages in 2 blocks of 3 rather than 3 blocks of 2 - season is also too fragmented (IMO).

Currently, they play 22-24 Prem matches + 6-9 EPRC + 4-6 Cup = 32-39 matches
Aidan's suggesting 18-19 Prem + 6-9 EPRC + 7-9 Cup = 31-37 matches (but 24-28 for the regulars).

Fewer matches of higher quality; a cup competition that we can all actually give a damn about; exposure and increased quality in the Champ; with a better chance at promotion; whilst demotion is much less of a "death sentence"; Champ clubs also get a chance at "giant slaying". Total season is 2 week shorter, so we can either allow a longer off-season, or build in some rest weekends for everyone.

How about:
5 Wks Prem => 3 Wks EPRC => 1 Wk Rest => 3 Wks AIs/Cup =>
5 Wks Prem => 3 Wks EPRC => 1 Wk Rest => 3 Wks 6N/Cup =>
3 Wks 6N/Cup QF, SF & Final =>
4 Wks Prem => 1 Wk EPRC QF => 4 Wks Prem =>
1 Wk EPRC SF => 1 Wk Prem Final => 1 Wk EPRC Final

More opportunities for the fringe squad members, fewer games played for those being ground into... erm... the ground.
The trouble is for the Englad squad, who's game time would remain unchanged; though we could always make the EPS rest weekends to mean rest weekends rather than 80 minutes over 2 weeks; ideally introduce a 3rd EPS rest weekend. The Elite are also murmering about being willing to take a pay-cut to play fewer matches; so that's down to them/their clubs to negotiate. I would hope that a "more valuable" cup competition would increase the valude (as well as game time) for those fringe youngsters, lowering the wage differential between the top and the bottom earners.

For the money men; they get to go from 16 home matches for their STHs (+ any knock-outs) to 15 home matches for their STHs (+ any knock-outs; whilst guaranteed to make at least one QF)



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 26/09/2017 09:49 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 12:48
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
OutsideBath
Time for world rugby to reduce the amount of internationals being played.


And scrap the Premiership play-offs.

I would agree with this, but then we'd need a break in the PL season during any international window.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
26 September, 2017 12:54
I mostly agree with that WT, but I'd keep the playoffs at Semis + Final.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 08:30
Outof interest - just going back to the point of this thread for a moment if no-one minds (or even if they do mind)...
Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?

I thought I'd do a quick scan of which other boards on SportsNetwork are worried about the number of injuries this season.

Boards with a thread devoted to injuries without scrolling down on the front page:
Exeter
Gloucester (Well, Shedweb - no idea why they keep a presence on SprtsNetwork)
Harlequins
Leicester (though on attrition and injuries in general, rather than Tigers-specific)
Northampton
Saracens
Wasps
Worcester



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 09:21
So Sale, Irish and Newcastle are all good with their level of injuries.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 09:37
Quote:
BathSalmon
So Sale, Irish and Newcastle are all good with their level of injuries.
It means that if they've a thread devoted to @#$%& about it currently; then I didn't notice it.
Easily possible that I just didn't notice the thread; or that it's a thread with a more obscure title (I was only scanning for the word "injury" in the title) or they could be having an ongoing discussion in a different thread. Of course, they could also have had a thread 2 posts down from the bottom of my screen has I scrolled - for us, that goes back about 5 days (cheaters vs Leinster).



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 10:01
Quote:
Which Tyler
Quote:
BathSalmon
So Sale, Irish and Newcastle are all good with their level of injuries.
It means that if they've a thread devoted to @#$%& about it currently; then I didn't notice it.
Easily possible that I just didn't notice the thread; or that it's a thread with a more obscure title (I was only scanning for the word "injury" in the title) or they could be having an ongoing discussion in a different thread. Of course, they could also have had a thread 2 posts down from the bottom of my screen has I scrolled - for us, that goes back about 5 days (cheaters vs Leinster).

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment. I doubt anybody is happy with their squad injury situation.

Irish do have a few injuries at the moment though.

Can't say for Sale - no idea

But for Toby Flood and Mermoz, I can't see Falcons having too many problems right now. They might be the only ones near "full strength".

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 11:18
Quote:
Which Tyler
Outof interest - just going back to the point of this thread for a moment if no-one minds (or even if they do mind)...
Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?

I thought I'd do a quick scan of which other boards on SportsNetwork are worried about the number of injuries this season.

Boards with a thread devoted to injuries without scrolling down on the front page:
Exeter
Gloucester (Well, Shedweb - no idea why they keep a presence on SprtsNetwork)
Harlequins
Leicester (though on attrition and injuries in general, rather than Tigers-specific)
Northampton
Saracens
Wasps
Worcester

That was what I was driving at originally, are we just part of a general trend or does the pitch, training regime, medical cover at our club, Bath, have a bearing on our injury situation.

I'm beginning to think the senior players have a point and that there is too much regular body bashing and the amount of rugby being played is excessive.

Problem is the organisers are talking about more not less rugby!

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 11:58
Clearly injuries during games are unavoidable, but frustrating none-the-less.

What does concern me with Bath is the number of injuries that seem to occur in training. How you train will have an effect here and I guess there is a trade off between simulating real match-day intensity and keeping them wrapped in cotton wool.

When you hear the likes of Billy V say they never stretch because it 'hurts too much' (my mrs told me this so it might not be true. She is a PT though) you do wonder if players are getting the very best advise when it comes to warming up and stretching before and after exercise, be that a game or training. Certainly on a match day, during the game, I see some pretty half-hearted stuff by the bench in preparation before coming on.

Another thing that slightly baffles me is why it should be assumed that a player who comes back from an injury layoff should be 'blowing' after 30mins. These guys have had nothing to do other than train for weeks, even if you can't do heavy weights or run, you can always find some form of cardio.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 12:50
So we keep hearing in most sports, fitness and ‘match fitness’ are two different animals. I’m guess that in the case of Henry Thomas, his ACL injury would have meant that he missed a good 6 months of proper strength and conditioning and prop is a pretty unforgiving position for that.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 14:22
I think 'match fitness' is in part a myth. Of course you can get just as cardio fit without playing a game. In fact the necessity for recovery after, and wind down before, weekly games would interfere with a proper cardio fitness program. Players should be arriving at the first game of the season in peak cardio. Marathon runners don't get fit to race by running marathons, they have a properly structured training program that brings them to a peak of fitness just at the right time.
What probably is true is that you can't pre-condition the body for the weekly battering games give you so it takes a few games to 'harden'.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 15:07
Quote:
jayeatman
I think 'match fitness' is in part a myth. Of course you can get just as cardio fit without playing a game. In fact the necessity for recovery after, and wind down before, weekly games would interfere with a proper cardio fitness program. Players should be arriving at the first game of the season in peak cardio. Marathon runners don't get fit to race by running marathons, they have a properly structured training program that brings them to a peak of fitness just at the right time.
What probably is true is that you can't pre-condition the body for the weekly battering games give you so it takes a few games to 'harden'.

You are talking about players who have participated in pre-season rather than ones who were on crutches not too long ago presumably. I would be surprised if his leg strength is the same as it was before the injury quite yet? Of course that raises the question, are we rushing him back before he is ready (out of necessity) if he can only manage 30 mins?

 
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jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 15:33
Quite so. Rushing them back is a recipe for disaster. My feeling is the Bath are maybe a bit more cautious than other teams and that's possibly one reason for the longer injury list.

There is also the argument that you maybe don't want to be at a peak game one of the season because then the only way is down.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 15:43
Match fitness is not just about lasting 80 minutes or being battered repeatedly, it is more about timing and thinking clearly at the required speed whilst running around and being repeatedly battered. In my experience even full training doesn't prepare you for that. Some players are lucky and come back with their timing spot on but others may take a game or so to get right on the teams wavelength.

 
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jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 16:20
Good point, but even so 'blowing after 30' ??



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
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Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 20:03
@Jayeatman, a few posts since I last looked; but some of this you can check with your Mrs.
Stretching pre-game is useless at preventing injuries, and but does slightly increase your risk. Stretching post match is about reducing DOMS and cramp, for some the pain of stretching isn't worth the reduced pain of DOMS.
Warm up is best done a good 20 minutes beforehand, and you don't tend to know that far ahead of when you're going on.

Players shouldn't really be "blowing after 30" if they are then they weren't fit enough to sit the bench in the first place. Match fitness is still a thing though, you can't replicate the mental and physical aspects of match play in the gym, most of it would be mental though, getting carried away and not pacing yourself properly. That and playing whilst battered and bruised of course, which you really don't want to replicate in training.

Marathon runners don't run marathons 30 times a year - more like 3, and they have the luxury of being able to peak, and doing a sport that can be replicated 100% in training.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 21:04
It's not so much about blowing after 30mins, blowing is inevitable after a burst of energy, what makes a fit player is a fast recovery time. Totally agree with what TGK say its match sharpness and reaction that fades a bit with time out.

 
Wellychief
WellyBathChief (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
27 September, 2017 22:43
I'm not sure that Bath's injury list is that much worse than other clubs. Bathsalmon has listed 13 injured players.The chiefs also have a long injury list of approx 13 which is below (this may not be totally accurate as they don't publish a list of injured players like Bath do.)

James Short
Michele Campagnaro
Ollie Devoto
Sam Hill
Alec Hepburn
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Dave Ewers
Thomas Waldrom
Jack Yeandle,
Phil Dollman
Jonny Hill,
Matt Kvesic,
and possibly Sam Simmonds

I think the bigger issue is that Baths squad is so much smaller and clearly has a larger proportion of the salary cap on the 1st choice XV. Bath's 1st XV can and will beat any team in the league but the problem is no team gets their 1st XV on the pitch at any one time.Bath definitely need to go for more quantity over quality.

As an example compare the props. At the start of the season if Bath lost their 4 1st choice props (Thomas, Lahiff, Catt and Auterac) through injury they were left with Obano, Knight and Palma Newport.As 4 are needed for a squad they would need to recruit at short notice which they've done with Perinese and Andrews. But recruiting mid season cannot be ideal as you need to slot those players in and make room in the cap which may explain the players being released on loan over the last few weeks.
The Chiefs can lose Francis, Hepburn, Holmes and Williams. They are still left with Low, Rimmer, Moon, Owlett, Keast and Street. It's a similar ratio for the rest of the squads.

Being a fan of both Bath and Exeter one thing I have noticed is the difference in expectations from the fans. Almost all of Exeter's signings come from the championship or equivalent or they are fringe prem players. Chiefs fans seem to enjoy signing these relative unknowns and watching them develop. A large number of Bath fans seem to expect the club to be signing current internationals and are annoyed if seemingly lesser players are signed.

the only positive is it's better to have these injuries now than in April and May assuming the players are not rushed back hopefully we will see them all back fit and fresh when they return.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 00:37
You mention our squad being so much smaller WBC but someone posted a list of squad sizes & there was very little difference although admittedly Exeter's was the biggest so who is right? However, I do agree that we have no reason to offer up injuries, unless the cupboard is bare in one position, as an excuse. I bet Wasps have as many injuries as us so let's not hear that mentioned this weekend if we lose.

 
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BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 05:57
I posted a full squad list (for all teams) a few weeks (edit: by that I mean mid-july!!! Ha) before the season started and it was pretty accurate at the time:

[m.rugbynetwork.net]

There have been a few signings by other teams since then, but generally I think it still stacks up.

Maybe in the case of Exeter I got it wrong, the academy looks a little light, happy to be put straight on their squad, especially if they have a 20% larger squad than us (as I've seen posted on these boards somewhere).

Also I didn't list the academy injuries before, apparently there are a few in there as well (i.e. Atkins)



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Adopted Player 15-16: Matt Garvey



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 28/09/2017 06:00 by BathSalmon.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 06:46
[quote WellyBathChief] A large number of Bath fans seem to expect the club to be signing current internationals and are annoyed if seemingly lesser players are signed.[quote]

Not sure its a 'large' number of Bath fans - its a small, always miserable but noisy minority who expect a superstar every time. The rest of us are quite normal when you get to know us.

 
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Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 09:06
Quote:
BathSalmon
I posted a full squad list (for all teams) a few weeks (edit: by that I mean mid-july!!! Ha) before the season started and it was pretty accurate at the time:
[m.rugbynetwork.net]

There have been a few signings by other teams since then, but generally I think it still stacks up.

Maybe in the case of Exeter I got it wrong, the academy looks a little light, happy to be put straight on their squad, especially if they have a 20% larger squad than us (as I've seen posted on these boards somewhere).

Also I didn't list the academy injuries before, apparently there are a few in there as well (i.e. Atkins)
It was even done again all of 1 week ago (though from Wiki, not the club websites
Quote:
Which Tyler
Yeah, but he also thinks we (still) have a thin squad.
Wiki, on the other hand (and take from that source whatever you wish) thinks:
      Team	Adults	Kids
Sale      	  32	 10
Gloucester	  38	 19
Wasps      	  39	 11
Leicester	  40	 15
Saracens	  40	 18
Harlequins	  41	 17
Bath      	  43	 12
Northampton	  43	 13
Lirish      	  45	 11
Worcester	  45	 13
Exeter      	  46	 13
Newcastle	  49	 11



NB: Wiki just HAS to be wrong on Sale; it also doesn't split senior from academy for Saints and Exeter; so I've taken the average academy size (13) and allotted it that way.
Please note, if anyone's quoting Exeter as having 59 players, then they really need to quote Bath as having 55; not 43



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/09/2017 09:07 by Which Tyler.

 
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OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 09:20
So if we have a squad with numbers in line with the best teams are we saying our squad hasn't got the correct balance or are we simply unlucky for the second season running?



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
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jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 09:48
Unlucky, or the way we play & train causes more injuries.
Aside from missing a center I think our senior balance is now fine, but can't say the same for the academy.
Those Sale numbers can't possibly be right can they?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
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DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 14:28
I think the an aspect of the imbalanced is that you can't correct simply by signing, in our case, another centre. That leaves you short of money elsewhere and you just shift the imbalance. I think it just takes time and you have to let contract run their course.

Some some reason we've long had the idea we don't need as many centres as even I think we do.

Exeter have long enjoyed being the underdogs punching above their weight. From a fans point of view that makes it easier to accept signings from lower divisions. IF you get to the position where you are consistently winning things I think Exeter will find it hard to pull that off. And, as Bath fans can tell you, once you've lost it you don't get it back easily.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 15:24
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Fewer players and more games doesn't really add up does it?

 
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hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 15:30
Hmm - who helps set the market rate? There is France of course but if you play there you can't play for England. After France there is the Premiership who are setting the market rate for any player who aspires to play for England. Wasps and other Premiership teams are helping set the market value at too high a level for ewhat the game can sustain. Debate.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 16:44
I can't think of many who have done more to inflate wages than our own owner.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 18:24
Quote:
DanWiley
I can't think of many who have done more to inflate wages than our own owner.

Through increasing the cap or paying over the odds?

If the latter then surely Bristol? Sale with faf? Wasps with Beale etc? There are loads of players who are reportedly on more cash than the Bath players. Tuilangi was reported to be one half a million years and years ago. Picamoles?

 
Wellychief
WellyBathChief (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 19:35
It's not quite as simple as looking at the numbers in 1st team squads and academy's though as each club seems to use different criteria for deciding who's academy.

WT quotes Bath as having 43 1st team and 12 academy with Chiefs on 46 and 13. However if you look at how many of those academy are ready to play 1st team I'd argue that a lot more from chiefs are ready. I'd only say Bayliss, Atkins, Davies and Jennings are likely to be ready to play 1st team this season. If you say the criteria for being a 1st team squad member is having played at least Anglo Welsh Cup then Chiefs squad is 54 and Baths 48. Coincidentally the extra 6 players that Todd said he wanted would even the squads up.

I think Bath now have a problem in the wages they are expected to pay by players. On the plus side they have fantastic training facilities and Baths a lovely place to live. On the negative it's an expensive place to live. I don't think Bath as a cub have the draw they once did. If a player was offered the same financial package from all 12 prem clubs they would prob think Sarries, Chiefs and Wasps have the best chance of winning titles and they get more for their money in Newcastle, Sale, Exeter, Gloucester etc. They also may think they can push for more money from Bath as we have Bruces millions.This could lead to Bath over paying players. I actually think when negotiating contracts having Bruces money could wor against us.

 
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FourSticks (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
28 September, 2017 20:31
Not sure if these points have been covered elsewhere, but thought I’d air them anyway...

The first concerns the overall physique of modern players. In the past, a player would likely suffer a dislocation before suffering ligament damage. Today though, players have bulked up so much that the ligaments have become the weak point. The outcome is more instances of more serious (and therefore long-term) injuries.

Secondly, the shift in emphasis on tackling - forcing the player to tackle lower has highlighted deficiencies in a number of players who have poor technique. It has also led to a significant increase in HIA instances.

The first is hard to fix. Perhaps the game has gone too far with physicality and needs to rein back on the physical attributes of players (do we really need 18 stone, 6 foot 6 wingers?). Whether this can be achieved through setting weight and height limitations for each position, I’m not sure, but it could be a start.

The second is something that players are going to have to work on and will change over time, though I suspect there are too many current players that will be unwilling or unable to adapt. If that is the case, it could mean clubs replacing those players with ones with a better technique.

Actually, there’s a third point. Remove penalty offences from scrums. This should reduce the number of injuries occurring in the scrum as the emphasis will be back on getting the ball out rather than trying to milk a penalty It would also help speed up the game to the benefit of just about everyone.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
29 September, 2017 11:44
I think Bruce has caused little more than wage inflation by campaigning for cap increases, direct and indirect. He probably also hasn't help with some of his signings.

"It has also led to a significant increase in HIA instances. "

Is this true? HIAs are relatively new and certainly on the upward slope of use, but that is consistent with any new concept.

Austin Healy wrote an article that I started reading but didn't finish in fairness, as he made it all about him in an unusual break from his usual personality. Anyway the headline, and not much else that I got to, was about reducing the size of players on the field, which i think is an interesting concept.

How could you adjust the rules to favour lighter players or smaller impacts? I don't mean just introduce a law that says no players over 12st. I think the going low in the tackle sort of helps, it is harder for a larger player to go low. Maybe make the pitch wider, though I think players are that fit these days that the distinction is less. Would cause problems at most grounds as well. In some ways, keeping the scrum as a weapon does, heavier front fives means less mobility, means more spaces that favours more agile players. Obviously there's a contradiction here to a degree, but I guess that shows its no easy think to predict.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
29 September, 2017 20:02
Quote:
FourSticks
Secondly, the shift in emphasis on tackling - forcing the player to tackle lower has highlighted deficiencies in a number of players who have poor technique. It has also led to a significant increase in HIA instances.


I have no stats on this Dan but I suspect it is true, tackling low and from the side is pretty safe, however, tackling head on and low means your head is much closer to fast moving kness, not only that your head is moving down and the knee is coming up so the closing speed is the su of those two, that is why instinctively in a head on tackle you go high.

I tend to agree with much of FS's post, when you combine increased physicality with the tackle law changes and an increase in games and tiredness it's not really surprising injuries are on the up.

As you pointed out how you make players smaller is not at all obvious!

Recently I met with a solicitor in the valleys who plays golf with several senior players of the Gareth Edwards Phil Bennett era. Interestingly part of the discussion was that they watched less rugby these days because in their day rugby players avoided contact rather than sought it!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
30 September, 2017 00:28
But sure I really buy this idea that tackling low is really that hard, I've done it all my life, against some pretty swift players, I really haven't been kicked in the head as much as posts might suggest.

Talking to old rugby players is great fun, but I find there is a lot that has put them off the game "since their day".

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
30 September, 2017 07:35
It is hard front on, if a player steps backs inside as you make the tackle you can quite easily get your head in the way.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
30 September, 2017 08:10
It's that not true of higher tackles as well, unless you're really high.

The issue here, if at all, is putting your head in the path of someone's knee, but I'm not sure that is such an issue.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
30 September, 2017 08:12
Quote:
by
It is hard front on, if a player steps backs inside as you make the tackle you can quite easily get your head in the way.

Agree at top level you don't have the luxury of time to position yourself, particularly at close quarters.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
01 October, 2017 20:22
Charteris off with yet another concussion. Now there is someone who’s prone to injury.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
01 October, 2017 20:29
Is Henry Thomas OK?

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
04 October, 2017 18:44
So its not just us, Quins, Wasps and Glos all have the same issue so much so the Premiership Rugby are keeping an eye on it.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 07:40
Not sure why the BBC focus on Wasps injuries so prominently but this is an interesting insight into the current state of injuries.

Seems that hookers and 10's are particularly susceptible, I think we might add props to that list!

 
john fox
johnnyf (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 09:08
Yes, thought that piece was very interesting.
It seems that it is only passion for the game that stands between players grinding their way between constant pain and injury and being forced to succumb.
Are we, as supporters, demanding too much of them?

I have also noticed on the issue with picking out Wasps for special attention, that they (along with Exeter), seem to have the ear of the press.
If the point of this article is to identify general injury concerns for the sport as a whole, why pick out any teams in particular?

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 12:17
Well they had to pick a team as an example and Wasps were it.

Its a sobering article and one which is a concern for the sport going forward. What will RU look like in 10 years time?

It makes me respect the players even more and wonder about players at amateur levels who don't get the same medical support.

I haven't seen any articles on the reasons why there are more injuries. Do we need law changes or is it just heavier, faster players?

 
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woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 13:20
I hear much talk about 10s being clattered all the time nowadays, ddidnt that always happen, or is it just bigger blokes hitting them combined with 10s more willing to get in harms way i.e. tackle

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 19:45
Quote:
B4thB4ck

I haven't seen any articles on the reasons why there are more injuries. Do we need law changes or is it just heavier, faster players?

Some of this was covered tonight on 5 live, I'll link to it when its up but in summary the increase in injuries might be because as a result of the tackle at the breakdown law meaning if you are tackle you have to now go back round and re-enter through the gate, This means that fewer players commit to the ruck so there is more cover so more collisions.

The foot in touch law has also changed so instead of being able to field the ball it will now be deemed out so players are batting the ball back into play, fewer breaks more action more collisions.

Last season tackles per game in the Prem was 248 this its 272, but in the Pro 14 its is only 258, (Do the Pro 14 teams rely less on the smash it up tactic and avoid contact perhaps?)

Feeling was that there are definitely more injuries, what I found worrying was that it is common practice to automatically take an anti inflammatory after a game.

There is an increase in pain killer dependance as well.

I think this is an issue of which we will see lots more in terms of stats and articles.

I feel very uneasy about our top pros sacrificing their future health for our entertainment. I am not sure that comments about commitment have any real meaning any more, why should players get head knocks, vertebrae issues, knee rebuilds etc if the game is just using them as TV entertainment fodder.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 19:51
[quote shipwrecked][quote B4thB4ck]

I feel very uneasy about our top pros sacrificing their future health for our entertainment. I am not sure that comments about commitment have any real meaning any more, why should players get head knocks, vertebrae issues, knee rebuilds etc if the game is just using them as TV entertainment fodder.[/quote]

Because they enjoy the game!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

People like Dr Jamie Roberts aren't stupid and they know exactly what they are putting themselves through, but they have considered it and decided that its a price worth paying (within reason of course). The Dan Cole and Ugo comments are very interesting.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 19:52
Quote:
woodpecker
I hear much talk about 10s being clattered all the time nowadays, ddidnt that always happen, or is it just bigger blokes hitting them combined with 10s more willing to get in harms way i.e. tackle

Comment on 5 live was that the size issue might be levelling off but that there is a tendency for greater athleticism in todays game, plus the added time the ball is in play and resulting collisions as mentioned above.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
12 October, 2017 22:33
[quote BathMatt53][quote shipwrecked][quote B4thB4ck]

I feel very uneasy about our top pros sacrificing their future health for our entertainment. I am not sure that comments about commitment have any real meaning any more, why should players get head knocks, vertebrae issues, knee rebuilds etc if the game is just using them as TV entertainment fodder.[/quote]

Because they enjoy the game!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

People like Dr Jamie Roberts aren't stupid and they know exactly what they are putting themselves through, but they have considered it and decided that its a price worth paying (within reason of course). The Dan Cole and Ugo comments are very interesting.[/quote]

This is the link to the podcast, An Injury Crisis?

Worth a listen.

 
fat lock
fat lock (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 06:14
[quote BathMatt53][quote shipwrecked][quote B4thB4ck]

I feel very uneasy about our top pros sacrificing their future health for our entertainment. I am not sure that comments about commitment have any real meaning any more, why should players get head knocks, vertebrae issues, knee rebuilds etc if the game is just using them as TV entertainment fodder.[/quote]

Because they enjoy the game!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

People like Dr Jamie Roberts aren't stupid and they know exactly what they are putting themselves through, but they have considered it and decided that its a price worth paying (within reason of course). The Dan Cole and Ugo comments are very interesting.[/quote]

Your assuming people make rational decisions.
If all decisions were made on a rational risk averse basis then life would be dull.

This personal irrationality is why laws and rules are in place to protect individuals and society.
eg laws on alcohol, tobacco, drugs, driving cars, flying planes, etc etc
Once more evidence is gained about the long term consequences of playing sport more lawyers will be involved. Then money (or basically the risk of being sued) will dictate what decisions individuals will be allowed to make - and amateur rugby (and then professional rugby) is very exposed to this.

 
BBWBaaBaa
BBWBaaBaa (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 07:30
"This personal irrationality is why laws and rules are in place to protect individuals and society.
eg laws on alcohol, tobacco, drugs, driving cars, flying planes, etc etc
Once more evidence is gained about the long term consequences of playing sport more lawyers will be involved. Then money (or basically the risk of being sued) will dictate what decisions individuals will be allowed to make - and amateur rugby (and then professional rugby) is very exposed to this."

Sadly this is likely to be true..........

 
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jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 07:49
So, if players knew they had to stay on the pitch for the full 80, would they pace them selves more, find ways to not have quite so many head-on collisions and reduce the injury count?
In other words, has today's 23-man game made things worse?

 
fat lock
fat lock (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 07:55
I'm not sure about that
Injuries are more likely with body fatigue - so possibly the 23 man game has prevented some, but equally 15 knackered players in the last 20mins creates more space and less high impact collisions.

I'm not sure a self preservation decision about pacing for the last 10mins would happen in the process of making a tackle in the first quarter of a game

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 10:33
Surely the answer is to reverse those law changes which have reduced the space in the game?

The trend for nearly 30 years has been to cut down space, which puts a premium on the physical collision as a means of taking the ball forward.

Rucks defended by only 2 players = a Rugby League style defensive line. Rucks defended by 6-8 players means more space for running breaks instead of the constant "human dodgems" we currently see.

Also properly penalise blocking runners and obstruction. As Opti says on the Injury Updates thread- 4-6 players rushing into a confined space, nobody knows where the ball is - it's like a crossroads without traffic lights.


PG

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 12:13
There are always many different ways to represent statistics, but surely a good start would be to try and analyse which injuries are down to wear and tear and which are single collisions or accidents.

Then work back from there to see if any law changes have contributed or which new laws would help.

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
13 October, 2017 14:19
Quote:
B4thB4ck
There are always many different ways to represent statistics, but surely a good start would be to try and analyse which injuries are down to wear and tear and which are single collisions or accidents.
Then work back from there to see if any law changes have contributed or which new laws would help.

Agree, I think that is currently happening but before acting I think there needs to be more data collected.

There are anomalies though, why are there less collisions in Pro 14, do they commit more to the ruck or simply try to avoid contact rather than commit to it.

I'm tempted to say there should be a minimum number at the breakdown before the ball can be released.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Are Bath Rugby players more prone to injuries?
19 October, 2017 07:47
Quote:
jayeatman
So, if players knew they had to stay on the pitch for the full 80, would they pace them selves more, find ways to not have quite so many head-on collisions and reduce the injury count?
In other words, has today's 23-man game made things worse?

Does Brian Moore lurk on here? [www.telegraph.co.uk]



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

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