rugbyunion
Latest News:

The COML Message Board

The place for discussion, debate and nonsense about Bath Rugby.

Join our new Facebook Group today!

New visitors please read the house rules before posting

Test your prognostications at our Prediction League


Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 18:03
BBC reporting that Diamond has been charged following his comments in relation to Craig Maxwell-keys performance. Cannot believe I am agreeing with him but Maxwell-Keys performance at the Rec against Falcons left a lot to be desired.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 18:26
Nothing will change.

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 18:31
Diamond blames anyone and everyone except himself when Sale lose. Guess who he credits if they win...

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 18:36
About time he was charged.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 18:44
Refs do seem untouchable though.

I have not heard of a ref being rebuked or apologise after a bad performance, is it done in secret or is done at all.

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 19:13
Refs are assessed for each match I believe and then I think they all get together to review. Pretty sure I hear Nigel Owens talking about it on Brian Moore’s podcast a few years ago.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 19:36
He was fired up, tactless and out of order.

I suspect though that quite a few Premiership DORs might agree with his general gripe - Rob Baxter said (much more diplomatically) in interview moments later that players go off their feet at rucks regularly without penalty.

All refs allow players to go off their feet at the breakdown- the problem is not confined to Craig Maxwell-Keys. It is a problem for the game though and it should be stopped.

PG



P G Tips



Alex Davies: my adopted Player, 2018-19.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 19:48
Quote:
shipwrecked
Refs do seem untouchable though.
I have not heard of a ref being rebuked or apologise after a bad performance, is it done in secret or is done at all.

[www.walesonline.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
07 November, 2017 20:17
Quote:
shipwrecked
Refs do seem untouchable though.
I have not heard of a ref being rebuked or apologise after a bad performance, is it done in secret or is done at all.
they're assessed with every match and given feedback and expectations.
Persistent offenders drop a league or drop down the pecking order - when did you last see a Changalang in charge of a match?

ETA: I wrote this elsewhere last time Cockerill was going OTT on his favourite distraction...

the Changalang brothers come to mind as having been demoted.
The talent pool of rugby ref's is not deep - not deep enough, so the best available ref at the highest levels. If the best isn't good enough for you, then tough, there is no-one better to come in and take the job of the ref you want fired.
There is indeed a formal and correct way to report your feelings in the ref, who is assessed after every single match.

As a rule of thumb the ref is paid about as much as an academy player, yet is expected to make fewer mistakes than any of the players, whilst having far more opportunities to make those mistakes. The ref also gets no right of reply.

As a rule of thumb, criticism of the ref is out of order when these factors are considered. I don't mind fans having a go in the heat of the moment, I do mind fans holding a grudge. I do mind professionals who have no excuse for not knowing better, and who do have media training having a go at the ref, even in the heat of the moment.

Out of interest, I tracked down an article from this year, talking about ref salaries - significantly higher than the last one I'd read (which I also tracked down, and was 13 years old!). Ignore their maths though, it's utterly horrible, but they seem to know the pre-match salaries.
[tsmsportz.com]

So a RWC ref gets £1500 per (RWC) match; TJs get (£750)
An international ref gets £1000 per (international) match; TJs get (£375)
Premiership/ SRugby refs get £350-375 per match; (TJs unknown, but the same ratio gives £130-180).

So a top, top ref could earn (10x£1000)+(30x£360)=£21,000 in match fees, realistically a little more if they head south for SuperRugby and Quad-Nations.
Meanwhile, a club-grade ref would earn (40x£360)=£14,400 p.a.

Same article suggests that top-level refs can earn a (presumably performance related) "extra" of 2.5X their match fee per match, but only seem to suggest that at RWC level, but if we assume the same across the board, then that salary raises up to £70,000; (£50,000 for club-grade - who will also spend plenty of time running the line instead, so significantly less) realistically I think that assumption holds for international rugby, but probably a lesser bonus at club level.

Bear in mind that even most of the elite refs hold down day-jobs as well, and all of the club-level ref.s do. Owens on the after-dinner speaking circuit, Barnes still works as a solicitor etc.

The article also demonstrates horrendous maths, by suggesting that top-level refs can earn £320,000; which would require the match-fee + full "extras" for refereeing 46 RWC matches per year.... which seems unrealistic somehow.
They also think that $250 per match gives an annual salary of $60,000; requiring 240 matches per year...



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2017 20:35 by Which Tyler.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 00:18
Quote:
shipwrecked
Refs do seem untouchable though.

As it should be

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 04:18
I agree with much of what has been said about upholding the ref’s decisions but that soft penalty against the Sale player, which isn’t given 9 times out of 10, just when they were likely to score a winning try, was a travesty & I could understand Diamond’s ire.

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 08:10
I can remember the Nigel Owens incident and also Chris Masoe reply which in his typical AB way was along the lines of "Cheers Ref we are all human".

Owens also apologised post match for his performance in our game against Toulouse at the Rec. The only other Ref's I can recall apologising for errors on the pitch or after is Wayne Barnes and Roman Poite - no suprise se they are rated as the best Refs in the game at present.

So Why? We are all human, it would stop the tirade of abuse from DOR's, players and fans. Most importantly it shows the empathy for the game and that Refs can get things wrong but by admitting and apologising it shows they are aware of their shortcomings.

Is that not what we want from our game - Honesty and Integrity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2017 08:14 by Ali1969.

 
bathwickboy
bathwickboy (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 10:54
Diamond does not know when to keep quiet and he really should know better although for once I think he has a point. Referees have a very difficult job to do and certainly most times the top refs get the decisions spot on, but I do think at the moment there is a large gulf in the Aviva prem between the top ref Barnes, Carley who I think improves with every match, then come the rest and in my humble opinion Maxwell Keys is near the bottom of that list. We seem to have too many mediocre refs who are not improving. I suppose the consolation is that the standard of refereeing apart from Owens in the pro 14 must be quite dreadful if Whitehouse is appointed as a ref for the European games!

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 11:46
I think Owens is falling a little bit. This could be down to age. A few of the decisions in the NZ game were very odd. He is still the best but it is time for the next stars to come on the scene and push for the bigger games.

 
Hercules Spoons
Hercules Spoons (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 15:06
If the Referee pool is not well stocked it would seem that several posters on this site might be in a position to make up the numbers?

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 15:56
All of us who have played the game can tell stories of good and bad decisions either going your way or against you. In my experience, over a game and certainly during a season they tend to equal out and, as we would have no game at all with out a referee, IMO we should be grateful and have to tolerate the occasional blooper, especially if the ref puts his hands up and admits he made a mistake.

The one thing I have always looked for from refs is an empathy for the game, consistency of decisions and wanting to let it flow, in the mould of a Clive Norling or Derek Bevan. Their talking to players telling them what they want also is vital and those refs that seem to stand aloof and will not countinence any dialogue cannot ever hope to be the absolute best. Certainly even Mr Carley has tried to talk to players and why I particularly like JP Doyle and young Luke Pearce. Maxwell- Keys IMO is ok and on track to be very good, and although Mr Diamond may feel very aggrieved and Sale lost points because of a tight decision, I wonder if the boot was on the other foot and a reverse of the situation when Sale benefited from a 'wrong' decision, would he then be bleating and thanking the ref?

Mr D has been around in rugby to know these things happen and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
08 November, 2017 17:25
Quote:
Hercules Spoons
If the Referee pool is not well stocked it would seem that several posters on this site might be in a position to make up the numbers?

The Dark site has a few who like to think they know the game better than every ref to grace the Welford Road pitch, maybe start there...

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
09 November, 2017 03:48
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Hercules Spoons
If the Referee pool is not well stocked it would seem that several posters on this site might be in a position to make up the numbers?

The Dark site has a few who like to think they know the game better than every ref to grace the Welford Road pitch, maybe start there...

Why go there then?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
17 November, 2017 12:53
6 weeks, bless him

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
17 November, 2017 13:19
Quote:
BathMatt53
6 weeks, bless him
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Given his record he got off lightly.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
17 November, 2017 14:07
Good, so he should have been.
I'm also glad that it's a stadium ban, not just a touchline one as per normal - it escalates the sanction.

I'd argue that for something like this in the interview he knows is coming as has a few minutes to prepare for, then each ban should escalates from the previous - regardless of individual.
I'd allow (much) more leeway for an interview given my d-match as BT have introduced.

I'm also always amazed that every time there's a concussion controversy, the coach "hasn't seen the footage and can't comment" but every time it's a ref decision, they've seen all the footage from enough angles to know categorically that the ref was wrong. I'd like interviewers to specifically make the coach watch the concussion footage before asking about it.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: SHOCK Diamond charged
17 November, 2017 15:49
Will Sale be better off for it?


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?