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MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 10:02
Is cramp an injury? Wales saved themselves from an embarrassing draw when Georgia had Wales' scrum under extreme pressure on the line with several re-sets.

The referee ruled uncontested scrums when Tomas Francis was carded and Leon Brown was unable to take the field because of cramp?

How can a prop who is selected to play an international and hasn't played the whole game get such a severe cramp that he can't play? Are internationals that unfit?

My biggest question though is is it fair that cramp should be permitted as a reason to take the field. If he was already on the field and had cramp it would have simply meant he wouldn't get to the breakdown or tackle and be a liability to his side.

PS Many thanks to the gang of Georgia supporters who adopted our group and shared their bottle of colourless fluid with us. A very knowledgeable rugby crowd they were too!

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 10:17
No.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 10:25
Thanks BP, another thread closed....does mean that Wales can never complain about the France game ever again I suppose. That law really does need sorting in my view though.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 10:45
No cramp is a symptom of fatigue, not an injury.

The context of the game is what makes this whole thing so bad in my eyes. If Georgia had come away with a draw it would have put more fuel to fire for their involvement with the 6 nations. It would have been fantastic for them.

Wales on the other hand were playing a weakened side and would suffered an embarrassing slip up which would soon be forgotten in Wales' proud rugby history. Given Samoa's position if England pulled something like that next week I'd be wanting to see heads fly. No place for that sort of behaviour from management, and petty when the result means so much to the opposition and so little to you.

(And yes the French have been getting away with far too much front row trickery for some time!)

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 12:38
Anyone who's played sport and got cramp will know it's impossible to carry on for long afterwards, so I believe that yes it's an injury.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
BaltiBoy (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 13:09
Quote:
OutsideBath
Anyone who's played sport and got cramp will know it's impossible to carry on for long afterwards, so I believe that yes it's an injury.

Not an injury, it is simply muscle fatigue / a lack of conditioning. Whilst I agree it's almost impossible to play with cramp, if we go down this route we'll soon have players saying they can't compete as they are out of breath and knackered!



Cheers & Beers
BB

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 13:51
Quote:
OutsideBath
Anyone who's played sport and got cramp will know it's impossible to carry on for long afterwards, so I believe that yes it's an injury.

Anyone who's played sport and got cramp will know it's impossible to carry on for long afterwards, so you train to build up lactic acid tolerance!

He was subbed at 56 minutes, so had 20 minutes rest and still was unable to play because he was cramped up??

Adam Jones' commemts, "Wales pulled the fastest one ever"

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 14:48
Let's see what Gatland does next time a player on the field goes down with cramp and gets a teammate to stretch his leg out... I'm sure Gats won't be pulling them straight off because of the injury.

And I'm sure you can find loads of examples of Gats letting players continue after a bout of cramp. Very irresponsible if he thinks it's an injury. Then again, Gatland let's you play on if you've been knocked out cold.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
19 November, 2017 18:26
Gatland and Edwards have serious form with regards to cheating to go uncontested - that pair have done it for years.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 07:28
The thing that confuses me is I thought we'd settled on a law that said you lost another player in this situation? And you need 8 in the scrum.The commentary team seemed to suggest that as well, but it didn't seem to happen. I'd that not the law? Not for internationals?

If that were the case it would seem fair. An uncontested scrum with 5 on 7 backs would seem a similar advantage to the one they would have had in the scrum.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 08:49
Without having to push, the flankers and no. 8 would be much quicker to get up and make a tackle. Also a dominant scrum can keep pushing from 5 yards and forcing repeated penalties until a penalty try is awarded without the ball having to leave the scrum.

Agreed though. 5 v 7 in the backs should be enough space to work a try.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 08:54
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
......
Agreed though. 5 v 7 in the backs should be enough space to work a try.

Unless you're the Welsh team!
(Or Tigers!)

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 09:13
yeah, I get the advantage of the scrum, but I think the 7v5 would equally like lead to a try, whilst the penalty try is quite likely, we know that its not always the case (I recall Sale a few years back).

But the card took Wales to 14 men and I thought going uncontested as a result should have taken them to 13, I'm not sure why that didn't happen? Did Wales do something particularly "fast" to somehow avoid that or did the law get incorrectly applied or did that law just never make it through? I'd guess the latter, but a shame if not as it seems to deal with the issue to me.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 09:59
The law says that 2 props have to go off injured then you go to uncontested, but Gatland substitutions were tactical. Alan Philips has to mark a card to say tactical or injured and give it to the officials.

Wales are saying that the props cramped up after substitution. Is this true? I'm not sure but the point for me is that you can say he has cramp so can't play. Difficult to prove on the touchline and even a doctor could only take the word of the player.

For the defending side to go uncontested inside the 22 gives them a big advantage, Wales manipulated that, it shouldn't be allowed to recur not only for Wales but for everyone.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 10:25
It's this law I guess:

"3.6 (d) In a squad of 23 players, or at the discretion of the Union/match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced."

"(f) If, as a result of a front row player being temporarily suspended, another player has to be nominated by the team to leave the playing area to enable an available front row player to come on, the nominated player may not return until the period of suspension ends."

I think Wales were (just) in the letter of the law, but really it clearly should say they should have gone to 13 in that situation.

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 10:33
Defo not an injury for me. Wales have sneaked this one big time IMO.

Very dodgy ruling as you could have seen Georgia driving for a penalty try given their dominance at the set piece.

It was also intriguing as BBC showed Brown standing up off the bench and taking his coat off - as if expecting to come back on - only to then sit down again. Did he say he had cramp or did the Welsh staff tell the 4th official he did?



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 10:46
Hence the confusion... I think it is this bit.

LAW AMENDMENT TRIAL

(h) Uncontested scrums as a result of a sending off, temporary suspension or injury must be played with eight players per side.

This is where the problem starts, its uncontested if there are no players available because of injury. However, they were available because they were tactical subs, until Wales said they were injured because of cramp.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 12:39
A cramp is an injury if you are a Cheat. Which is blatantly what Gatland and Edwards are.

Very poor

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 12:50
There seems to be a case missing here for this scenario which can't be that uncommon: A front row yellow/red causes uncontested scrums. For me, that clearly shouldn't be the same effect as a injury. I think it could be simply clarified:

""3.6 (d) In a squad of 23 players, or at the discretion of the Union/match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced. <addition> If the departure was due to a red or yellow card the offending team must nominate a further player to be removed.</addition>"

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 13:09
Yes it needs that or something very similar, but I would like to see the proximity to the line and whether the side are attacking or defending accounted for. The chances of Georgia scoring were very high if that scrum was contestable given previous re-sets a penalty try was likely.

Also the 'cramp' issue. In football or hockey if you get cramp and no subs are available it's just tough, why should rugby be different.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 14:08
Maybe if there isn't another porp fit to replace the yellow carded player, the porp stays on the pitch and a back rower has to be removed instead. Scrums still contested, and defending team are at an added disadvantage - one man down and a weak prop remaining to contest the scrum.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
20 November, 2017 14:43
Yes, that would work, DB can you email world rugby when you get 2 minutes?

 
MESSAGES->author
shendy (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
21 November, 2017 07:45
But then the penalised player stays on the pitch, almost putting the front row above the law - would you want that for foul play?

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
21 November, 2017 19:32
How about just awarding a penalty try if the side whose front row player has been sent off the field are unable to then provide the appropriately qualified players to allow a competitive scrum to be completed inside the 22m line. That ought to concentrate some minds smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
Garbageman (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
21 November, 2017 20:26
Quote:
joethefanatic
How about just awarding a penalty try if the side whose front row player has been sent off the field are unable to then provide the appropriately qualified players to allow a competitive scrum to be completed inside the 22m line. That ought to concentrate some minds smiling smiley

Hmmm, and of course a lot of pressure on the ref. That's something that could have all sorts of unintended consequences and I can imagine how teams may be coached to (ahem) facilitate a yellow to get the 7 points. On the upside you may find that porps can play either side like they did in my day.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: Is cramp an injury?
22 November, 2017 08:52
Quite an incentive to nobble an opposition prop too.


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