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MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

OT/ Brexit
06 July, 2017 11:17
Rejoice!

EU and Japan have signed a trade deal:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 July, 2017 11:42
Wlell that totally makes political subservience worth it!

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 July, 2017 13:24
Before Boris gets wildly excited about the precedent this sets and expects the EU to roll over and beg us to tickle tummy, hope he reads the bit about 15 year transition

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 July, 2017 19:43
Quite fortunate that trade deals take time and usually aren't what was hoped for, otherwise we could have been in as position where Japan could sell cars to the EU tariff free and we couldn't.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 July, 2017 07:49
What do you mean? We will be able to sign trade deals within weeks with India and the US

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 July, 2017 12:24
Yikes. This is potentially terrible news, we could end up with Japanese car makers being better off manufacturing EU bound cars at home rather then here.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 July, 2017 12:28
Jeez, this goes from bad to worse.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 July, 2017 12:42
It would be funny, schadenfreude in a kind of way, if it weren't happening to us.

"Wlell that totally makes political subservience worth it!"

Remind me of how being part of the EU affected you in a tangible way?

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 July, 2017 14:47
Justice. The people will get what they deserve and they deserve what they get. No tears for the UK, they wanted their country back so crack on.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 July, 2017 15:05
I work closely with the rural sector in Wales (I'm not Welsh, just to be clear!), and without a shadow of a doubt, Brexit will devastate UK agriculture.

90% of Welsh lamb exports are to the EU.
Most, if not all, upland farm incomes are underpinned by EU money.
Any trade deal with the US, Australia, New Zealand, or any number of South American countries will give them the right to sell their beef and lamb here, which they can produce more cheaply and are allowed to use growth hormones and antibiotics without regulation.

It's a perfect storm.

And yet the farming community voted en masse to leave the EU.

Could the phrase 'turkeys voting for Christmas' any more appropriate?

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 July, 2017 22:24
Sorry, but what a load of total morons. Good points Hydor, more evidence of people's ignorance and anger riding roughshod over logic and self preservation.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 July, 2017 23:02
Quote:
@Hydor18
I work closely with the rural sector in Wales (I'm not Welsh, just to be clear!), and without a shadow of a doubt, Brexit will devastate UK agriculture.
90% of Welsh lamb exports are to the EU.
Most, if not all, upland farm incomes are underpinned by EU money.
Any trade deal with the US, Australia, New Zealand, or any number of South American countries will give them the right to sell their beef and lamb here, which they can produce more cheaply and are allowed to use growth hormones and antibiotics without regulation.

It's a perfect storm.

And yet the farming community voted en masse to leave the EU.

Could the phrase 'turkeys voting for Christmas' any more appropriate?

Yet we still give the EU more money than we receive. The tariffs on Lamb products (once the quota is allocated) are less than the change in the currency. Nowhere in the EU produces Lamb in the volume we do.

You'll probably know best - but surely British Lamb is quality and marketable...

The EU isn't a charity that supports our economy - it's a framework of rules and regulations for which we pay in order to ensure protection against external influence. If we leave and then apply the same framework, of course we'll lose out.

But then there are plenty of countries that survive without this framework (and they are wealthier per person than us). We have to change... bu then, it wasn't a vote for the status quo.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 09:27
"Yet we still give the EU more money than we receive." I'm no an economist, but my understanding is that if every EU member received more than they gave, it would be considered a pyramid scheme.

It is a misnomer to suggest we should recover more than we pay because the reality is that what we pay in money from the taxpayers purse, we more than recover in tariff-free trade and commerce. I am far more supportive of this than I would the government being given a big lump of cash.

Yes, British lamb is considered a high quality product, but in the same vein as people shop in Lidl as opposed to Waitrose, if you can buy it cheaper, you will.

Obviously there are countries that exist perfectly well outside of the EU, but I am simply not convinced we will be enriching our own lives from exiting it. We do extremely well out of EU membership. The problem has always been that successive political parties have sought to paint it as a conduit for their own failings, and the press have been on the whole negative since year dot. Thus the population will always take a dim view of the EU, and that was borne out in last years' referendum.

What really bugs me is that I am considered a "remoaner", and am effectively told to pipe down because the option I voted for lost. Had the vote gone the other way, would those people criticising me now have just shrugged their shoulders and gone back to their day jobs? Not. A. Chance.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 12:43
How people respond to change in organisations is illustrated very well by this image which can be easily overlaid on the country and those who voted last year. Each will know where he or she is in terms of how they feel now, and whilst there is a long way to go yet I remain optimistic about it...
http://cornerstone.rutgers.edu/sites/fst/files/Managing%20Change%20Curve.jpg



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 12:48
Note there is no limit as to the time...

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 13:12
Quote:
@Hydor18
Note there is no limit as to the time...

Correct, some people never come to terms with the change that has taken place...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 13:16
Also note that "acceptance" as pretty much everyone has accepted Brexit - doesn't mean that they agree with the decision, or that they should stop pointing out where processes could be improved etc etc.

There's a reason it's "acceptance" not "approval"



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2017 13:17 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 15:11
Quote:
Which Tyler
Also note that "acceptance" as pretty much everyone has accepted Brexit - doesn't mean that they agree with the decision, or that they should stop pointing out where processes could be improved etc etc.
There's a reason it's "acceptance" not "approval"

Acceptance in the context of the model usually means the staff have tried out the new structure/processes/changes to culture etc; buy into the new future then start to work towards achieving the new goals. The UK is not at that point in this cycle yet, people need to see what the Brexit deal is and live with it [experiment] before they can "accept" the new future.



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 15:20
Actually there's a branch in any sane model, that could happen anywhere, but I'd say often happen around experimentation where you ditch the change as its simply isn't working and the cost is seen to be dramatically higher than the benefit.

To carry on in such a situation because a picture told you to seems crazy.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 16:03
The whole purpose of the change curve is to help managers understand how to pull their troops through the change. This is mainly done by being open and honest, listening, explaining and dealing with any questions as they arrive. I haven't seen a lot of that in this Brexit means Brexit (or is it Brexit means Red, blue, White and now Orange) world. No one seems to know what we want, what we are asking for and what we are going to get so the curve can't possibly work yet - everyone is on the down slope (although many wion't admit it)

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 16:27
Quote:
hemington
The whole purpose of the change curve is to help managers understand how to pull their troops through the change. This is mainly done by being open and honest, listening, explaining and dealing with any questions as they arrive. I haven't seen a lot of that in this Brexit means Brexit (or is it Brexit means Red, blue, White and now Orange) world. No one seems to know what we want, what we are asking for and what we are going to get so the curve can't possibly work yet - everyone is on the down slope (although many wion't admit it)

Its amazing how far we have managed to travel in over a year, isn't it. We've gone pretty much nowhere.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 16:35
Well, nothing has changed so I'm not even sure the curve has kicked off yet.

The fundamental point is valid. It is very likely there will be change. How we adapt and respond to the change will define our future success. The sooner we can move as a collective to acceptance, the better the change will be.

There is a risk that attempts to undermine or resist the change, in an attempt to prevent it, limit it's success and yet the change still goes ahead. I'm not sure it fits on the model.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 17:01
The point at which the change has actually happened is the point at which I will accept it. As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance. They're doing a pretty good job of that themselves. What's patriotic about doing something that's bad for our country?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 19:10
Quote:
jayeatman
As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance.

There is a thin line between resisting the change (leaving the EU) and wishing to see it fail - bringing hardship on fellow citizens (some of whom will have voted remain) - to overturn a democratic decision.

Not saying you've crossed it, but some will have.

 
The Oilman
The Oilman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 19:41
Not another Brexit debate.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 19:41
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman
As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance.

There is a thin line between resisting the change (leaving the EU) and wishing to see it fail - bringing hardship on fellow citizens (some of whom will have voted remain) - to overturn a democratic decision.

Not saying you've crossed it, but some will have.

I thought that the argument is being made that economic hardship will come to fellow citizens as a result of even a *successful* Brexit. Indeed, you can make a strong argument that it already has. A *failed* Brexit will just make things worse.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 20:47
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman
As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance.

There is a thin line between resisting the change (leaving the EU) and wishing to see it fail - bringing hardship on fellow citizens (some of whom will have voted remain) - to overturn a democratic decision.

Not saying you've crossed it, but some will have.

I've yet to meet a single Remainer who wants a failing Brexit. I've met a lot who fundamentally believe it's a catastrophically deluded decision which will permanently harm and impoverish the British people though.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 21:53
Then we're back to saying the EU is a crutch - that the UK is nothing (impoverished) without the EU.

Of course that isn't necessarily true - in fact, the UK has often thrived in areas with some of the least EU protectionism.

But it will come true if you leave the EU and expect to deal with the world in exactly the same way - which is the change we're on about (when it happens).

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 July, 2017 22:57
Quote:
Substitute
Then we're back to saying the EU is a crutch - that the UK is nothing (impoverished) without the EU..

I don't think anybody is saying that. A UK outside the EU will still be a rich country in absolute terms just relatively poorer and less influential than if it had remained. But people tend to judge things relatively. Being richer than, say, Canada or Australia doesn't cut much ice when you are not richer than France or Germany and the situation is getting observably worse.

My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is that (should Brexit actually happen) the UK will be a full member of the EU within 25 years including membership of the euro, Schengen, and the new independent European Defence Force as these will be price of rejoining. The rebates we currently enjoy from the EU will be a fond and wistful memory.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2017 02:25 by joethefanatic.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 05:08
Quote:
The Oilman
Not another Brexit debate.

What gave it away?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 07:10
"The sooner we can move as a collective to acceptance, the better the change will be. "

Is this true? I think there's a reason that process takes time. It discourages you from doing stupid things.

"There is a thin line between resisting the change (leaving the EU) and wishing to see it fail - bringing hardship on fellow citizens (some of whom will have voted remain) - to overturn a democratic decision. "

Go on, tell us where this line is then? I don't think anyone's wants to bring hardship. That's the point, I feel that Brexit WILL bring hardship. I also think it would be perfectly valid for another Democratic process to overturn the result of this referendum. It was a very narrow snapshot of public opinion in any case. I don't mean another referendum, I hope it's clear that these are seldom if ever appropriate, but a party being elected on a suitable manifesto would do it.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 08:06
The real Brexiteers like Substitute have successfully managed to make a case that you can't be half in or half out of the EU, you have to leave the customs union and the single market.

This is based on 3 issues:

1) European court of justice having influence over us
2) Ability to make trade deals outside the EU
3) Freedom of movement

I would argue that it is only hardcore Brexiteers that really think those first 2 are a problem, and even they struggle to point to which laws have been imposed on us by the EU that we don't want. Business big and small was quite happy on the whole with the trade deals we have now.

So for the 52% to be less than 50%, the only thing that would have needed to be addressed was freedom of movement.

The EU could have done something about that before the referendum and they could do something about it now.

At the moment they are playing into the Brexiteers hands by saying we cant have our cake and eat it and saying essentially the same thing as John Redwood/Bill Cash etc.

I cant believe there isn't a way around this. I reckon if tomorrow we said there was a 3 year transitional period that the £ would recover and we could get some sanity into the argument.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 08:13
Quote:
Substitute
Then we're back to saying the EU is a crutch - that the UK is nothing (impoverished) without the EU.
Of course that isn't necessarily true - in fact, the UK has often thrived in areas with some of the least EU protectionism.

But it will come true if you leave the EU and expect to deal with the world in exactly the same way - which is the change we're on about (when it happens).

No, we're saying the UK is worse off outside of the EU. And a lot of that is due to the inability of anyone to make an evidence-based case to the contrary, just conflicted rhetoric and slogans. Many countries we've built relationships with have done so partially because we're in the EU.

At least on the sovereignty point I understand the point (even if I disagree with it). And there are obvious frustrations with the slowness and bureaucracy of the EU. But I just don't get the basis for the economic argument.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 09:09
The economic argument is a no brainier as far as I am concerned! We are better off in the SM and CU but that argument failed as the take back control argument was more persuasive to the British Public. We all warned against the choppy waters to come but clearly the British Public ignored these. We just have to get on with it and hope that our 44% exports to the EU are compensated by the rest of the world quickly, that is if we have anything to export in goods and services if investment falls!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 09:12
I prefer not to base policy or the economy on hope. As a Spurs and Bath fan I have little surfeit of it.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 09:18
Quote:
hasta
I prefer not to base policy or the economy on hope. As a Spurs and Bath fan I have little surfeit of it.

As a Spurs and Bath fan also, hope is our only choice now unless the EU does a massive u-turn on freedom of movement, regretfully!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 10:15
What did Pandora think of hope??

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 10:33
[quote woodpecker]
So for the 52% to be less than 50%, the only thing that would have needed to be addressed was freedom of movement.

The EU could have done something about that before the referendum and they could do something about it now.[quote]

Will never happen, it's the only thing the Eurocrats refuse to talk about. Their beloved freedom of movement for people is more important than any other issue for them.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 12:14
Quote:
hasta
...due to the inability of anyone to make an evidence-based case to the contrary...

There is no evidence and it applies to both sides.

Quote:
hasta
But I just don't get the basis for the economic argument.

But the economic argument is based on the premise that we won't change and that the way we do things is not based on policy but on a natural order.

I.e. We trade mostly with the EU now, but it wasn't always thus. That was the influence of policy - mainly joining the EU.

We can do something about it. Soon we will be presented with new opportunities and I don't doubt we have the abilities to take them but I do doubt we have the mentality to take them.

Of course with any change there is bedding-in period, but using the bottom of the curve to judge the end of the curve is obviously wrong.

I wouldn't trust any economic prediction that masquerades as evidence, or compares now to a transition period. I don't believe that we have no agency in this process. I do believe the outcome of this will be as good as we make it and unfortunately being defeatist on the 'facts' (as natural and easy as it is) will only lessen the likelihood of a good outcome.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 12:32
But. How.

This spurious idea that everyone will be lining up to sign trade deals with us has no basis in anything other than hope. Everyone who has been asked has said either 'back of the line' or 'Europe was the most interesting thing about you'. India and others would seek increased freedom of movement as part of a trade deal anyway.

The evidence from the Remain side is the increased trade, cooperation, economies of scale on common agencies and peace of the last 30 years.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 13:13
..and overseas investment, Hasta, which seems to be somewhat on hold at the moment!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 July, 2017 16:11
Explanation of the EU.

[www.youtube.com]



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 July, 2017 09:23
Returning to the model illustrated in the graph, as country I think both sides are in the frustration stage. I believe we have moved through the "denial" stage because the two main parties [Con/Lab with 80%+ vote share at the recent election] agree and thus are "aligned" in the policy of leaving the EU. A few may still be in "denial" but the course is set.

A communication strategy addresses "frustration" and this is happening now with both sides setting out their positions in public e.g. EU say they will not sacrifice the 4 freedoms, the UK Govt say they want control of borders, money and laws. There is much debate [frustration?] in broadcast, print and social media and this will be a 2yr stage if negotiations are concluded by Mar19, longer if there are to be transitional arrangements...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 July, 2017 19:17
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Returning to the model illustrated in the graph, as country I think both sides are in the frustration stage. I believe we have moved through the "denial" stage because the two main parties [Con/Lab with 80%+ vote share at the recent election] agree and thus are "aligned" in the policy of leaving the EU. A few may still be in "denial" but the course is set.

Parties change their position on things all the time. If it becomes clear that there is electoral advantage in moving to a "Remain" position then one or other of them will do it. Politics is a rough old game.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 July, 2017 02:17
Channeling my inner William Blessing for a moment here. I was rereading this and it seemed an apt comment on these uncertain times.


THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 July, 2017 12:16
So the government is trying to pass the repeal bill which will ensure the same EU rules apply in the UK after Brexit.

What about the one about the hoovers?

Gaz - I hope your neighbours are currently lobbying parliament to make sure that one doesn't get ratified

 
dancing quin
dancing quin (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 July, 2017 11:48
Your man Dyson is in the media moaning about losing his farm subsidies due to Brexit (he receives the most subsidies in the whole of the UK from the EU - £1.6M). Yes, the same Dyson who campaigned to Leave the EU. Now the billionaire thinks after Brexit (if it ever happens) the UK public should instead subsidise his farming business and also says he doesn't want the people of the UK to feel sorry for him. They live on another planet.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 July, 2017 11:53
So Dyson was a Leaver? Wow, that is shocking .

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 July, 2017 15:01
Always wondered how he and BC mangaed to put that to one side because I presume BC with all his French connections would be a Remainer. Maybe I am wrong but if right there must have been some great conversations in the 'Royal Box'.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 11:56
Intersting article in the Guardian, even if you dotn agree with his conclusion, essentially says a soft Brexit is not feasible

[www.theguardian.com]

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 12:14
Quote:
woodpecker
Intersting article in the Guardian, even if you dotn agree with his conclusion, essentially says a soft Brexit is not feasible
[www.theguardian.com]

Isn't that what we've been saying (those of the Leave persuasion).

And I follow his logic with regard to a second referendum, up to the point where he says it's decided by a sovereign people - I thought that was the case the first time and he's arguing it might not have been.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 12:25
What he's saying is:

That is why the final deal needs the consent not only of parliament, but of a sovereign people.


So he is talking about the final deal. Regardless of which side you were on, nobody knew then what the final deal would look like. Over a year later on we still have no idea.

Even after the 2 years is up, I'm not convinced there will be a very clear view of what you are voting on i.e. option a or option b

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 12:30
A good option might be to partition the country, down the middle vertically, west and east. The East bit with London would stay in, the west out. At the widest, England is only 271 miles wide, so the maximum anyone would have to move would be 135 miles, (obviously not the Welsh, they would have to stay where they are)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2017 12:31 by woodpecker.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 16:09
Quote:
woodpecker
What he's saying is:
That is why the final deal needs the consent not only of parliament, but of a sovereign people.


So he is talking about the final deal. Regardless of which side you were on, nobody knew then what the final deal would look like. Over a year later on we still have no idea.

But he also said there is only one reasonable outcome to Brexit, so that has had the consent of the people.

I agree a final deal can look different but if by rejecting it we remain in the EU then the vote on Brexit wasn't sovereign.

Quote:
woodpecker

Even after the 2 years is up, I'm not convinced there will be a very clear view of what you are voting on i.e. option a or option b

I agree. Final deals are@#$%&things to vote on - not least because they're final. Secondly if you vote on them ypu incentivise the other side to give you a@#$%&one. Thirdly, things are moving on and we're not going back to the same place.

Better we understand we're leaving, they understand we're leaving and we get on with it like grown-ups.

Genuinely the less politics involved in this process, the better it is for everyone...

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 16:13
Quote:
Genuinely the less politics involved in this process, the better it is for everyone...

I don't disagree with the principle of that statement... but it's just not going to happen.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 August, 2017 18:52
If the nation votes no to the final deal. does that mean.

a We'll stay in.

b. Go back and re-negotiate.

c Stuff ti, we'll just go.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 06:53
Haven't we given notice to leave?

In which case, a further 'no' vote would mean May having to go back to Brussels and plead to be allowed to stay

Hilarious ... not!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 07:13
It's a point that people are trying pretty hard not to answer. From what I can see there doesn't seem to be a legal it procedural issue with simply withdrawing our notice to leave.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 07:41
Not convinced the liberal elite are going to allow us to leave.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 08:26
If it were purely down to the 'liberal elite' you're probably right.

Trouble is for every member of the 'elite' that's liberal, there's also a right wing nationalist who can see Brexit means more power and/or money for themselves at the expense of the rest of us. And right now the latter control the levers of power.

BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 09:16
Quote:
jayeatman

BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?

I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 09:22
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman

BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?

I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.

Please explain?

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 09:40
The Liberals are certainly elite in the sense that there aren't very many of them

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 09:51
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman

BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?

I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.

Please explain?

Is the person holding religious beliefs that marriage is between a man and a woman entitled to that belief or is he wrong for not ascribing to the 'Liberal' worldview.

Are they to be tolerated or should we be intolerant of them?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 10:13
Quote:
jayeatman
BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?

If I had to choose it would be right wing, there's nothing I find appealing about liberalism.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 10:14
He or she can be right or wrong, it doesn't matter. What he or she can't do (in a liberal society) is impose their perspective on others. If you believe marriage is between a man and a woman then you can manage your own matrimonial choices that way. It is not fair or just for you to make that decision for other people - for whom getting married has no personal impact on you.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 11:06
Quote:
hasta
He or she can be right or wrong, it doesn't matter. What he or she can't do (in a liberal society) is impose their perspective on others. If you believe marriage is between a man and a woman then you can manage your own matrimonial choices that way. It is not fair or just for you to make that decision for other people - for whom getting married has no personal impact on you.

What about the Christian B&B owners forced to allow gay couples to rent their rooms? Is that not imposing a liberal view in them?



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 11:19
Firstly I'd take issue with your characterisation of Christian there as there are plently of Christians who wouldn't care about it. Mostly ones who have actually listened to the parable of the Good Samaritan. Secondly, no. If you run a business you're not allowed to discriminate. If you don't want to rent rooms to people, don't go into the business of renting rooms. You can't restrict your employment or your customer base by discrimination.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 11:34
Quote:
hasta
Firstly I'd take issue with your characterisation of Christian there as there are plently of Christians who wouldn't care about it. Mostly ones who have actually listened to the parable of the Good Samaritan. Secondly, no. If you run a business you're not allowed to discriminate. If you don't want to rent rooms to people, don't go into the business of renting rooms. You can't restrict your employment or your customer base by discrimination.

It's not my characterisation, it's a comment relating to a case that went to cour.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 11:36
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 11:47
Quote:
hasta
Firstly I'd take issue with your characterisation of Christian there as there are plently of Christians who wouldn't care about it. Mostly ones who have actually listened to the parable of the Good Samaritan. Secondly, no. If you run a business you're not allowed to discriminate. If you don't want to rent rooms to people, don't go into the business of renting rooms. You can't restrict your employment or your customer base by discrimination.

Although I agree with your sentiment, I also think that if you are in business you can decide which bit of business you do or dont want. We sometimes reject contracts becuse we dont like the risk, or there is some potential conflict of interest (consultancy). Obviously by law you cant discriminante on sex/race etc. but in principle, you should be able to reject business.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 11:51
You can reject business (e.g. for Risk, inability to deliver etc.). You can't reject business for discriminatory reasons.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 12:03
Quote:
gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation

I presumed it was our Liberal elite we were discussing and not the E 'the world's gone PC mad' U's.

The problem I see with Liberalism is that by enforcing a 'right way' you stuff the beliefs of a number of people and make it more difficult for them to live their lives according to their beliefs.

I don't necessarily disagree with the B&B case, but it is the case that the owners now have to subjugate their beliefs to run the business, or accept the cost of not running the business - which would not have been the case had they ascribed to the worldview of the State before that of their religion.

A 'Liberal' intolerence means that instead of persecuting those who wish to see Liberal ideals you persecute those who don't - just ask Tim Farron.

Nevertheless equal marriage is quite a widely held worldview - I don't think many people would make the case for complete gender-neutrality, for example.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 12:08
Over in Ireland recently there was a... let's call him a moron, who took umbrage to that decision that the Belfast bakery couldn't discriminate against homosexuals and so hatched a plan. He went to a bakery in Dublin (a different country) and ordered a massively anti-gay cake. The bakery refused to make it - because they were too busy. The moron took the bakery to court claiming he was discriminated against and he lost. The bakery were able to prove they were busy and therefore did not turn the business away because of discrimination.

[www.thejournal.ie]

So, yes, you can turn business away as long as you're not discriminating against anyone.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 12:32
Quote:
gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation

Have to agree with you. Leaving the EU isn't going to rid us of the PC nonsense blighting the UK.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 12:36
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation

Have to agree with you. Leaving the EU isn't going to rid us of the PC nonsense blighting the UK.

Now you tell us!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 12:42
Nothing to do with worldview, right, wrong or belief. They don't have to subjugate their beliefs at all, they're just not allowed to apply them to other people. Previously they were allowed to discriminate on grounds of sexuality. Now they're not. Just as previously they could discriminate on grounds of race, creed, colour, nationality. And now they can't.

Quote:
A 'Liberal' intolerence means that instead of persecuting those who wish to see Liberal ideals you persecute those who don't - just ask Tim Farron.

I don't quite understand that sentence. Are you saying Tim Farron persecuted people? Or was persecuted?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 12:53
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman

BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?

I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.

What a daft thing to say. The very last thing the majority of our ruling elite are is paid up members of the Liberal Party.

Much like 'fake news','Liberal elite' is a pejorative term used in relation to something people don't like in ignorance of what it actually means.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 13:01
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation

Have to agree with you. Leaving the EU isn't going to rid us of the PC nonsense blighting the UK.

Very amusing OB

[:wor kid:]

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 14:30
Quote:
jayeatman

What a daft thing to say. The very last thing the majority of our ruling elite are is paid up members of the Liberal Party.

Woah... That's almost as daft as suggesting there is a 'Liberal Party' they can be paid up members of.

But just so your clear, by 'Liberal' I don't mean an organisation.

Quote:
jayeatman
Much like 'fake news','Liberal elite' is a pejorative term used in relation to something people don't like in ignorance of what it actually means.

Most of the time this is true.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 17:15
Quote:
Substitute

But just so your clear, by 'Liberal' I don't mean an organisation.



Quote:
Substitute

I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.

OK, I'm confused. When you make the distinction betwee upper and lower case L what on earth did you mean if it wasn't to distinguish liberal the philosophy from Liberal the party? That's what people mean when they talk of, say, "conservative" Vs "Conservative"?



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 17:45
Quote:
TCM2007
Quote:
Substitute

But just so your clear, by 'Liberal' I don't mean an organisation.



Quote:
Substitute

I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.

OK, I'm confused. When you make the distinction betwee upper and lower case L what on earth did you mean if it wasn't to distinguish liberal the philosophy from Liberal the party? That's what people mean when they talk of, say, "conservative" Vs "Conservative"?

Well there is no meaningful Liberal party - and I not so lazy I cant write Liberal Democrats.

The distinction is between the two faces of Liberalism. One which is the dictionary definition (hence small l) and the other is the political doctrine that uses the state to enforce a Liberal idealogy (hence big L).

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 19:56
Be specific though. What 'Liberal idealogy' (to Stuart's point I think you may have inverted capitalisation convention here) are you unhappy with? What state enforcement are you referring to? Anti-discrimination laws?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 20:41
Definitely needs clarity, I understand that labour is quite painful.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 August, 2017 20:55
Quote:
Substitute



The distinction is between the two faces of Liberalism. One which is the dictionary definition (hence small l) and the other is the political doctrine that uses the state to enforce a Liberal idealogy (hence big L).

As a general rule, it helps communication if conventions are shared. This one appears unique to you, so understandably others didn't, er understand.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 06:30
And who are these Liberals that form the elite of which you obviously object to. There must be thousands of them in order to have so much power over us - who exactly are they - the 12 MPs? It strikes me you are just using the phrase to describe anyone who's views are different to you in which case it is very lazy 'journalism'

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 18:39
Quote:
hasta
Be specific though. What 'Liberal idealogy' (to Stuart's point I think you may have inverted capitalisation convention here) are you unhappy with? What state enforcement are you referring to? Anti-discrimination laws?

If the leader of the Liberal Democrats (a supposedly Liberal party) feels he cant lead the party because of his personal beliefs, irrespective of his voting record then Liberalism is broken. It's just a platform for people to signal their moral 'virtue'.

Anyhow, I suggest reading Isabel Hardman's articles on the subject (or the book Two Faces of Liberalism ) - far more concise and eloquent than I could ever hope to be.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 18:43
Quote:
hemington
And who are these Liberals that form the elite of which you obviously object to. There must be thousands of them in order to have so much power over us - who exactly are they - the 12 MPs? It strikes me you are just using the phrase to describe anyone who's views are different to you in which case it is very lazy 'journalism'

Well I haven't...

But in any case there are Liberals in the Conservatives, in Labour and in the Lib Dems and beyond...

The number of successful Liberal policies (from gay marriage to the proposed choice of gender) would suggest they are probably far more numerous and successful than the conservative elements in the Conservatives, in Labour and in the Lib Dems and beyond...

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 18:51
I think you are reversing the normal conventions on capitalising there - there are liberals in Conservatives, there may well be conservatives in the Liberals, but there aren't any Liberals in the Conservatives.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 19:09
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
hasta
Be specific though. What 'Liberal idealogy' (to Stuart's point I think you may have inverted capitalisation convention here) are you unhappy with? What state enforcement are you referring to? Anti-discrimination laws?

If the leader of the Liberal Democrats (a supposedly Liberal party) feels he cant lead the party because of his personal beliefs, irrespective of his voting record then Liberalism is broken. It's just a platform for people to signal their moral 'virtue'.

Anyhow, I suggest reading Isabel Hardman's articles on the subject (or the book Two Faces of Liberalism ) - far more concise and eloquent than I could ever hope to be.

Eh? He was elected to lead that party because of his voting record, despite his personal beliefs! He made a personal choice to stand down. Sounds pretty liberal and moral to me. Why you think this is virtue signalling or what that even means is beyond me.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 21:39
Quote:
hasta
Eh? He was elected to lead that party because of his voting record, despite his personal beliefs! He made a personal choice to stand down. Sounds pretty liberal and moral to me. Why you think this is virtue signalling or what that even means is beyond me.

He stood down of his own personal choice after being hounded for his unpopular religious beliefs. Let's be clear - if his stance on religion hadn't mattered he would still be there.

Quote:
Isabel Hardman
We live in a society of liberal intolerance, where only certain world views are deemed acceptable by people who often refuse to accept that they themselves have a worldview that also deserves interrogating. Such intolerance is often born of a sincere desire to make life better for those who have been persecuted in the past, including gay people, women who have abortions, and those who divorce. But it becomes a form of persecution in itself, just focused on a newly unpopular group.

It might be that those moral judgements are quite palatable to a majority of those around you: you’re more likely to have an easy time if you say publicly that all religions are equal (which few really believe, as this would mean you believe that cults who practise child sacrifice deserve equal respect to the Roman Catholic Church) and that you think anything goes in relationships.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 August, 2017 22:43
What are you drinking?

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 08:32
I wonder what the Brexiteers think of the leaked divorce settlement? £36bn maybe a bargain if the condition of access to SM and CU without strings of FOM etc are agreed? But then I have yet to see a real pig fly!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 10:43
If it is a serious offer then Davies should rip their arm off, a bargain and keeps us at the acceptable end of the spectrum of Total Humiliation to Mere Humiliation

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 12:27
Quote:
gaz59
If it is a serious offer then Davies should rip their arm off, a bargain and keeps us at the acceptable end of the spectrum of Total Humiliation to Mere Humiliation

We are not legally required to pay anything so this is far from a good deal. I guess if we are weak it will be accepted.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 14:56
And if we refuse to pay anything we really will get a good deal. Might as well get used toi waiting 24 hours at the border. Come to think of it we will be a new continent beacause Europe we won't be.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 14:57
If many of the world wide institutions that will define our future see it as our debt, the law doesn't matter, we'd be nuts not to pay and this seems to be about as low a deal as we could expect.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 15:10
Quote:
hemington
And if we refuse to pay anything we really will get a good deal. Might as well get used toi waiting 24 hours at the border. Come to think of it we will be a new continent beacause Europe we won't be.

That swings both ways, we can make the Europeans wait just as long as they make us wait.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 15:27
1 to 27 isn't very good odds. Why would they want to come to a third world country?

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 August, 2017 15:54
Quote:
hemington
1 to 27 isn't very good odds. Why would they want to come to a third world country?

As far as I can tell, it's generally to laugh at the quaint customs and thank god they don't live there. Hmmm....



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

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