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BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 13:10
When we had the first vote in the 70’s I thought Ted Heath sent out a letter to every household saying that we were entering a Union both economical and Political, did this not happen??

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 16:16
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
OutsideBath
Also I am hoping to see Bath win something before potentially leaving.

Going to be sticking around for quite some time then?!

(Sm14) (Sm159)


Yorkie.

You were doing so well until then!

 
Yorkie
Yorkie (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 17:01
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
OutsideBath
Also I am hoping to see Bath win something before potentially leaving.

Going to be sticking around for quite some time then?!

(Sm14) (Sm159)


Yorkie.

You were doing so well until then!


Sorry but couldn't resist! Thought it might lighten the mood a little too. (Sm1)

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 21:22
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
OutsideBath
Also I am hoping to see Bath win something before potentially leaving.

Going to be sticking around for quite some time then?!

(Sm14) (Sm159)


Yorkie.

You were doing so well until then!


Sorry but couldn't resist! Thought it might lighten the mood a little too. (Sm1)


Certainly needs it (Sm42)

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 09:01
Morning and a belated HNY to one and all - I have no desire to reboot this discussion, unlike Mr. T Blair this morning, rather to sign post all those interested in this topic to read this book - The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart. I also include reviews of same by The Guardian and The Times for balance. I am about a third of the way through what is a well researched and thought provoking piece of writing.



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 10:00
Brexit was so last year Clarkey3k.

This site's now moved on to discussions of where the players get their Gucci loafers and Tarquin's penchant for sabotaging Bath lineouts

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 10:05
Very interesting reviews.

I'll be getting a copy of that as I think it is an interesting argument and on my travels around the UK something I have become aware of

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 10:30
Quote:
Beergoggles
Brexit was so last year Clarkey3k.
This site's now moved on to discussions of where the players get their Gucci loafers and Tarquin's penchant for sabotaging Bath lineouts

I agree Beergoggles and in my defence hope to get up to speed with these important topics once I've finished this book which I did buy just before the end of last year...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 18:53
Didn't some politician say a 'citizen of the word is a citizen of nowhere'?

Sounds like she was talking about the 'anywheres' and understands the problem.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 19:00
Even allowing for your typo it sounds like fairly meaningless soundbite.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 21:06
Quote:
DanWiley
Even allowing for your typo it sounds like fairly meaningless soundbite.

Read Clarky's Guardian link.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 21:33
I did scan it, does it go anywhere? It seemed a little trite.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 21:45
Quote:
DanWiley
I did scan it, does it go anywhere? It seemed a little trite.

It's a characteristic of Citizens of the World that they wouldn't see the point. Exactly why they miss so much of the reason for Brexit.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 21:52
Because citizens of the world tend not to be so scared of change?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 22:00
Because Citizens of the World are a minority who can't believe that the majority don't agree with them.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 22:13
For me that simplifies the population, and the referendum, so much it's that it's practically meaningless. The article itself makes some reasonable points as to why is a false dichotomy.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 22:36
Which proves my point.

 
Montyuk
Montyuk (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 22:37
Quote:
Clarkey3k
How people respond to change in organisations is illustrated very well by this image which can be easily overlaid on the country and those who voted last year. Each will know where he or she is in terms of how they feel now, and whilst there is a long way to go yet I remain optimistic about it...
http://cornerstone.rutgers.edu/sites/fst/files/Managing%20Change%20Curve.jpg

It's a change curve... doesn't mean change is for the better.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 January, 2018 23:52
Quote:
Montyuk
Quote:
Clarkey3k
How people respond to change in organisations is illustrated very well by this image which can be easily overlaid on the country and those who voted last year. Each will know where he or she is in terms of how they feel now, and whilst there is a long way to go yet I remain optimistic about it...
http://cornerstone.rutgers.edu/sites/fst/files/Managing%20Change%20Curve.jpg

It's a change curve... doesn't mean change is for the better.

Nor does it mean it is for the worse... Or that we even know at this stage... Or that people should be difficult to try and prevent the change or...

It's a change curve but the sooner we get to the end stages the sooner peoples performance (in the environment they find themselves in) improves. At the end of the day that's where we all want to be.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 00:05
Quote:
Boldangrey
Because Citizens of the World are a minority who can't believe that the majority don't agree with them.

I find it interesting (and probably related) is how negative to the interests of 'liberal values' and 'corporate interests' high voter turnout is. To a certain extent they relied on voters being disenfranchised to give them the legitimacy to pass unpopular reforms.

For a long time they were effective at disenfranchising voters but it's amazing how given a genuine choice how energised people got about voting.

Is modern liberalism contra democracy?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 08:35
I think you're looking at it wrong. Going purely on the review of the book for statistics, it suggests that the majority have an inward looking, parochial view. So I can see how a high turn out would be detrimental to more a open minded, inclusive view of the world.

I certainly wouldn't suggest that the solution is to attempt to lower the turnout, rather to educate and expand the views of the electorate.

You mixing in 'corporate interests' is a little orthogonal, but I would say your premise is incorrect. 'corporate interests' probably quite enjoys a narrow minded, ill-educated, easily manipulated electorate.

"Nor does it mean it is for the worse... Or that we even know at this stage... Or that people should be difficult to try and prevent the change or... "

The model doesn't say anything about the validity of the change, that's its flaw. If the change is seen to be negative then the model often isn't followed. One could use the first referendum as an example, or are Farrage et al still in the shock-denial phase?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 08:56
Quote:
Substitute
......
Is modern liberalism contra democracy?

Yes.

Anyone who disagrees with a liberal is automatically wrong. The condescending liberal view is that that person must be uneducated. He is labelled racist or ‘anythingphobic’ and his views are politically incorrect.

Elections have to be re-run until the uneducated majority give the answer the liberals want.

There’s no one so intolerant as a liberal who disagrees with you.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 09:23
"Anyone who disagrees with a liberal is automatically wrong. "

To finish that sentence, in the view of the liberal in question. But then that's true of anyone. If anyone disagrees with you, you think they are wrong. That practical the definition of disagreeing.

"The condescending liberal view is that that person must be uneducated."

Well, if they appear to someone to be wrong its either ignorance or just plain stupidity. ignorant seems the kinder option.

"Elections have to be re-run until the uneducated majority give the answer the liberals want. "

Aside from the fact we DO re-run election, roughly every 5 years, when has a liberal (or anyone else other than Farrage) done this?

"He is labelled racist or ‘anythingphobic’ and his views are politically incorrect."

I disagree, that tends to a specific case of disagreement when the other party says something racist.

"There’s no one so intolerant as a liberal who disagrees with you."

I disagree, I'm perfectly happy for you to have you view and make view view known. Where I disagree with it I'll put the other side. The thing I am not tolerating there is an attempt to spread an idea that I believe is wrong. I'm quite happy with that.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 09:37
And the liberal is branded 'naive', 'communist', 'Muslim apologist' etc by anyone who disagrees with them.

edit: forgot the old favourite: 'snowflake'. Also 'Enemy of the People', 'Saboteur' etc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2018 09:39 by Trev's Big Tackle.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 14:35
Interesting, so the somewheres took their revenge out on the anywheres by fukcing up their passports...

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 16:32
Quote:
DanWiley
I certainly wouldn't suggest that the solution is to attempt to lower the turnout, rather to educate and expand the views of the electorate.

I think it is no coincidence that liberal and economically conservative reform has done better on lower turnout. I imagine it holds no majority in the country but a plurality of engaged voters.

I'm personally conflicted. I am horrified by a Corbyn government but there is no doubt he profited from voter engagement. In that sense, I preferred when those voters were disenfranchised. But that really isn't democratic that I want them not to vote.

Quote:
DanWiley
You mixing in 'corporate interests' is a little orthogonal,

Can we use somewhere language please? winking smiley

Quote:
DanWiley
I would say your premise is incorrect. 'corporate interests' probably quite enjoys a narrow minded, ill-educated, easily manipulated electorate.

I think it benefits from exactly the same forces. Labour voters probably aren't voting for a company to pay their executives too much. Likewise educated voters dont suddenly become socialist.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 17:35
Corbyn's success comes from engaging the youth from memory and it seems to me the youth have more in common with anywheres.

Somewheres seem classic conservative voters. It's pretty much there in the name.

But the point is the somewhere-anywhere model was only a part of what happened during the referendum. I'm not sure it adds much to future political models.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 19:52
Quote:
DanWiley
But the point is the somewhere-anywhere model was only a part of what happened during the referendum. I'm not sure it adds much to future political models.

No, I don't think it does either, save referenda. Somewheres have no mainstream outlet and that seems to be what liberalism is relying on

In our current electoral system economic conservatism seems at threat from turnout.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 20:07
Really? Do somewheres not seem bread and butter conservatives to you? Why not?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 21:45
Somewheres are the working men who perceive that they can't get a job because of immigration. That was big in Brexit.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 21:47
I am an anywhere by the looks of things and I am older than Father Time!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 22:00
An expression that was used a lot over the Brexit campaign was “ I want MY country back” can anyone inform me what this means??

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 22:20
"Somewheres are the working men who perceive that they can't get a job because of immigration. That was big in Brexit."

Well, I've only scanned the review, but that's not what I got from it. I don't see why somewheres have to be men.

I presume that you mean "working class men" because a working man without a job is... Not a working man. I can see the term could apply to out of work unemployed men, but equally it could apply to almost anyone else. The term seems to apply to people who identify with their locale and don't look beyond it. That doesn't seem particularly suggestive of unemployed working class men.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 22:24
Gender split at age not actually that big Statista in fact more older women voted to leave. Only 18-24 had a major difference between women and men (and both groups still overwhelmingly voted to remain).

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 January, 2018 23:54
Quote:
BathPatriot
An expression that was used a lot over the Brexit campaign was “ I want MY country back” can anyone inform me what this means??

I think it comes from the same place as Make America great again - enuff said!

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 01:25
Quote:
DanWiley
Really? Do somewheres not seem bread and butter conservatives to you? Why not?

Yes and No. I am sure they are (socially) conservative but which party is offering that? A Conservative party that legalises gay marriage and allows gender choice (rightly or wrongly), a Labour party convinced by state interference or the Lib Dems (whatever they stand for)?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 01:26
Quote:
BathPatriot
An expression that was used a lot over the Brexit campaign was “ I want MY country back” can anyone inform me what this means??

Why have some Remainers got so agitated about blue passports? Because they think someone has enforced a ridiculous decision upon them?

Well, imagine that feeling across a series of decades and I can imagine why that argument might begin to feel compelling...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2018 01:31 by Substitute.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 06:49
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
BathPatriot
An expression that was used a lot over the Brexit campaign was “ I want MY country back” can anyone inform me what this means??

Why have some Remainers got so agitated about blue passports? Because they think someone has enforced a ridiculous decision upon them?

Well, imagine that feeling across a series of decades and I can imagine why that argument might begin to feel compelling...

I very much enjoyed the revelation that we could have had blue passports all along. Appatently, EU regs do not mandate a passport colour and Croatia, for example, has blue passports to thos day.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 09:50
I don't think remainers are agitated by the blue passports. It's a big thing for them because it highlights the trivial nature of the benefits of leaving: a document that you use a few times a year has changed colour. A property that, in itself, had no bearing on is function and is barely symbolic as half the population had never had one and when they did it wasn't even the same blue.

The irony that the colour was never mandated by the EU and in leaving the EU actually devalues that passport is just the icing on the cake.

The fact that this pointless change is celebrated by leavers is worth considering because it gives an incite into their misguided motivation for leaving.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 10:13
Interesting that it gave the PM a lift in the opinion polls, though.

Might insight her to make further gestures.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 12:32
I'm not saying it isn't popular among a certain population, just that the popularity has no real foundation. It's just meaningless rhetoric, and as such reflects the wider brexit motivations.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 12:34
Meaningless rhetoric that gave the nation a lift!

Little things mean a lot.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 12:40
It gave a relatively small percentage of the population a lift. Even so, a lift that has no foundation is at best a placebo, at worst just a lift before a fall. Given this blue passport actually reduces the rights of the owner the latter seems not likely.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 12:48
So you don't want people to feel better?

Happy people are more productive and play better rugby.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 13:18
I don't want people to feel good about losing rights, no. That would seem a very bad way to go.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 13:36
But they've voted to lose those rights.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 14:43
You can't just accumulate rights... They're not individual . If they apply to us, they apply to others. So you can do something you want, everyone else can do the same including things you dont want but within the law.

I might like the right to buy cheaper meat from the USA without exorbitant charges, plenty would prefer I don't have that right.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 17:44
Not all rights are like that. We used to have the right to go to any EU country. In future we won't, this passport represents pretty much that.

So we've gained a passport a similar colour to one we can barely remember having, which we could have had anyway. We've lost to the right to travel to 27 countries. The fact people voted for that just shows how mislead people have been.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 20:22
People didn't vote to give up the right to free access to these countries. They just accepted it as part of the the price to pay for leaving the EU.

Besides, we will still be able to travel to those countries - they want our holidaymakers.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 20:46
"But they've voted to lose those rights."

"People didn't vote to give up the right to free access to these countries."

Try and be a little more consistent. I didn't bring up whether they voted for it or not, the fact is they have lost those rights.

Yes, we will almost certainly be pretty much as free to go to (but not work in) those countries as before. Never the less, we have lost something and we've gained... a blue passport that we could have had anyway. You can see how that's a ridiculous thing to celebrate?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 21:07
Just part of the overall price for leaving which is what people want to do.

The blue passport is symbolic in the same way as the EU flag replacing national flags is symbolic and the EU 'stars' appearing on number plates was symbolic.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 21:12
Quote:
DanWiley
Not all rights are like that. We used to have the right to go to any EU country. In future we won't, this passport represents pretty much that.
So we've gained a passport a similar colour to one we can barely remember having, which we could have had anyway. We've lost to the right to travel to 27 countries. The fact people voted for that just shows how mislead people have been.

The legal right to free movement comes also means every citizen of an EU country also has the right to free movement. For some, the ability to work and claim benefits in Europe was worth less than the ability to control our borders and (linked to that) our culture.

As you've said yourself, if exclude a vindictive EU, then we will almost certainly be able to travel reasonably restriction free. Maybe a longer queue but the British can cope with that - it will give them another topic besides the weather.

Lastly, the colour of the passport and the rights they entail are not linked. Freedom of movement isn't restricted because it is blue, likewise if we'd have made it blue we'd have suffered merely a rebuke. It's just a symbol. Eurosceptics have had to accept a lot EU symbolism over the years they didn't want. Why shouldn't remainers?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 21:27
Your talking like I care about the colour or symbolism of my passport. I don't really. The point is people are celebrating this benefit and what you're saying is this means absolutely nothing. Doesn't that make the idea people are celebrating it is a bit ridiculous?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 21:43
Not sure how many times I have to say 'it's symbolic' - symbolic of the fact we are leaving. It makes people happy!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 January, 2018 21:57
Well we started from the position of suggesting that the remainers were agitated by the blue passports. They aren't. They are ridiculing people getting excited over meaningless symbolism.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 01:01
Quote:
DanWiley
Well we started from the position of suggesting that the remainers were agitated by the blue passports. They aren't. They are ridiculing people getting excited over meaningless symbolism.

But they are... Why on earth else would the likes pf the guardian and social media pointing out disingenuously that we are losing rights?

But if symbolism is so unimportant to remain then we might as well go the whole way and remove all EU symbolism. These high-minded remainers don't care about thibgs such as symbolism, so might as well let the Brexiteers have what they want and not sneer about it.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 08:32
Remainers don't care about symbolism because they are 'citizens of the world', 'anywhere's' with no sense of belonging.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 09:01
If we leave the EU I would expect us to remove EU symbolism, but in itself it doesn't carry any meaning.

If it is so important, I'd be reasonably happy to nominally remove EU references, but in effect stay in the EU. We might actually end up there anyway so I guess we'll all be happy.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 11:00
Quote:
DanWiley
If it is so important, I'd be reasonably happy to nominally remove EU references, but in effect stay in the EU. We might actually end up there anyway so I guess we'll all be happy.

If we end up in that place then we'll be legally obliged to carry a load of meaningless EU symbolism.

And I don't think Leavers will be bribed/misled by symbolism if we don't leave the EU in any meaningful sense. I know you think they're (we) are stupid but not that stupid.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 12:51
Maybe, but the actual number of people who desperately want to leave are in quite a small minority. If leasing is shown to be as painful as it's looking then a fudge might just be what the overwhelming majority want.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 13:20
Quote:
DanWiley
We've lost to the right to travel to 27 countries. The fact people voted for that just shows how mislead people have been.

If you mean travel to 27 countries for holiday, you will still be able to do that as the Europeans would be stupid to prevent that.

If you're talking about to settle, why should you have the divine right to move to a European country without demonstrating the financial value you bring? For me freedom of movement is the fundamental problem with EU membership, do away with that and I could be persuaded that remaining is better.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 14:07
Quote:
DanWiley
Maybe, but the actual number of people who desperately want to leave are in quite a small minority. If leasing is shown to be as painful as it's looking then a fudge might just be what the overwhelming majority want.


What makes you think that 'the actual number of people who desperately want to leave are in quite a small minority'.

Shows how out of touch you are.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 14:54
At the last count. 37.2% actively voted for a leave* of any variety, spanning the whole range from "at any cost" through "Norway/Switzerland model" to "don't particularly want to leave, but screw you David Cameron"

Claiming that it's anything other than a minority that want "leave at any cost" is just devoid of any form of critical thinking


* Whilst 34.5 actively voted to remain, and knew exactly what they were voting for, and 28.2% don't really care enough either way



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 14:57 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 16:47
What % of the 37% just wanted a blue passport if it was 3% we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 16:59
"If you mean travel to 27 countries for holiday, you will still be able to do that as the Europeans would be stupid to prevent that. "

When in the EU they are -unable- to prevent that, so it is a loss. However, being significantly less able to work there is the real loss.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 17:04
Quote:
DanWiley
"If you mean travel to 27 countries for holiday, you will still be able to do that as the Europeans would be stupid to prevent that. "
When in the EU they are -unable- to prevent that, so it is a loss. However, being significantly less able to work there is the real loss.

If you offer real financial value you'll still be welcome in any EU country, if you don't then quite rightly you'll be denied entry.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 17:06
Quote:
DanWiley
"If you mean travel to 27 countries for holiday, you will still be able to do that as the Europeans would be stupid to prevent that. "
When in the EU they are -unable- to prevent that, so it is a loss. However, being significantly less able to work there is the real loss.

Someone tell me the percentage of the British work force for whom that will be a loss.

Why should the rest suffer for them?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 17:16
"If you offer real financial value you'll still be welcome in any EU country, if you don't then quite rightly you'll be denied entry"

This isn't true. Suppose there's a job in France, you offer value but so does an Italian. You're pretty much out of the running. The Italian is essentially on the same footing as a Frenchman.

Does that effect a lot of British people, yes the knock on effects of us being second class in that market will really hurt us.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 17:25
Quote:
DanWiley
Suppose there's a job in France, you offer value but so does an Italian. You're pretty much out of the running.

Then you clearly wouldn't offer enough value and would quite rightly be ruled out.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 17:33
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
DanWiley
"If you mean travel to 27 countries for holiday, you will still be able to do that as the Europeans would be stupid to prevent that. "
When in the EU they are -unable- to prevent that, so it is a loss. However, being significantly less able to work there is the real loss.

Someone tell me the percentage of the British work force for whom that will be a loss.

Why should the rest suffer for them?
j
They reckon 1.2m Brits live in the EU. Probably 200k are pensioners. So this will affect 1m potential UK workers working in the EU.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 18:05
"Then you clearly wouldn't offer enough value and would quite rightly be ruled out."

Yes, but you've gone from a position where, legally, you stand every chance to one where you stand little chance. That's something you've lost.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 18:11
But if you're an employer in this country you will be able to employ a good Kiwi without him having to jump through immigration hoops.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 18:18
Really? I doubt it. But even so, it seems a bizarre thing to say.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 18:36
Quote:
DanWiley
"Then you clearly wouldn't offer enough value and would quite rightly be ruled out."
Yes, but you've gone from a position where, legally, you stand every chance to one where you stand little chance. That's something you've lost.

You might have but I wouldn't have.

For me the fundamental problem with the EU is the freedom of movement for everyone regardless of their financial value to the host country. Stop that and the EU has a chance to work.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 18:46
How does the UK work then with exactly the same idea?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 18:52
Quote:
DanWiley
Really? I doubt it. But even so, it seems a bizarre thing to say.

Fact.

It's a major reason for stopping free movement etc.

A Doctor with limited English from Eastern Europe can get immediate employment.

A similarly qualified Doctor from an English speaking non EU country has to apply and go through all sorts of administrative procedures before getting a job.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 19:06
The similarly qualified doctor will still have to go through all that.

How many drs have you actually seen with limited English? I can think of half a dozen I've seen in the last 6 months, none of whom I had any trouble understanding, some of whom might well have been Eastern European.

Rather than just writing "Fact." Try an actual fact.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 19:11
Quote:
DanWiley
How does the UK work then with exactly the same idea?

Who said it does?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 19:30
How is it different? Anyone from the UK can work anywhere in the UK despite large differences in prosperity and culture.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 19:54
Quote:
DanWiley
The similarly qualified doctor will still have to go through all that.
How many drs have you actually seen with limited English? I can think of half a dozen I've seen in the last 6 months, none of whom I had any trouble understanding, some of whom might well have been Eastern European.

Rather than just writing "Fact." Try an actual fact.

It is a fact! The EU worker does not have the same work permit etc requirements as the non EU worker.

As a regular attendee at our local hospital I can assure you that when the health care professional introduces themselves in clear English (or Australian etc) I feel altogether more confident.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 19:59
"It is a fact! The EU worker does not have the same work permit etc requirements as the non EU worker. "

We weren't disrupting that. Move the less, those work permits say nothing about their competence as a Dr. Just their right to work here. That one once had and now neither of them do. Meaning we don't have enough drs.

"As a regular attendee at our local hospital I can assure you that when the health care professional introduces themselves in clear English (or Australian etc) I feel altogether more confident."

Anything more than prejudice behind that?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 20:10
When you need a major operation you may understand.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 20:27
When I need an operation I want the best Dr around, not one that happens to have an English accent.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 20:28
So you have private health care, then?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 20:38
As it happens it does come "free" as a work perk, I don't use it and it's not the point. Even if I were to only have the set of public drs available I'd still prefer a good one over one with an English accent.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 20:58
So you want the best medical treatment and it is available to you through your employer, but you chose not to use it.

Instead you inflict your medical requirements on an already over-burdened NHS. How hypocritical!

No wonder we all have to wait so long for our operations.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 21:44
I don't think you understand the situation.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 21:47
I think you've made it clear to see, thank you.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 21:59
Quote:
Boldangrey
So you want the best medical treatment and it is available to you through your employer, but you chose not to use it.
Instead you inflict your medical requirements on an already over-burdened NHS. How hypocritical!

No wonder we all have to wait so long for our operations.

An interesting g point of view. I presume you would you be willing to refund Dan that proportion of his taxes which go to pay for the NHS if he promised to use his private health insurance? Otherwise you'd just be freeloading on him

Hold on a minute, that applies to me too. I've paid 35 years stamps and I'm currently a higher rate UK tax payer but I am legally barred from accessing NHS services when I'm in the UK. Gimme my bl00dy money back, you grasping bar stewards.

*Sorry for the edit post-B&Gs comment - my browser had not updated.*



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 22:20 by joethefanatic.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 22:13
No. All taxes go to central Govt and are divided amongst departments as the Govt sees fit. We don't pay x % to the NHS and y % to education etc.

I hope Dan is declaring the private medical benefits to the taxman as his 'free work perk'.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 22:20
I'm not doing it personally, my company handles that. As I say, I don't think you follow how this works. I'd I use that cover, it takes away from the NHS.

To a degree you are right, I am hypocritical, I should opt out on moral grounds really. But in reality it would be of no practical value to me or you and if I do ever really need it...

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 22:28
But if you truly believe in the NHS you should never'really need it'.

 
Yorkie
Yorkie (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 January, 2018 23:17
Can't believe you guys are still discussing this and no-one is conceeding an inch. Like a never ending chess game!

If you have a spare 20 minutes then this recent interview might interest you?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 January, 2018 07:48
NHS I believe in. I'm rather less convinced by a Tory ability, or even desire, to maintain a functioning nhs. I mean, I think i read this morning that May wants to appoint the wife of a director of virgin medical to be the health minister?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 January, 2018 08:04
Quote:
DanWiley
NHS I believe in. I'm rather less convinced by a Tory ability, or even desire, to maintain a functioning nhs. I mean, I think i read this morning that May wants to appoint the wife of a director of virgin medical to be the health minister?

I think she's a former district nurse so carries some credibility.

I agree the Tories cannot be trusted with the NHS, but for me this is demonstrated more by Jeremy Hunt being promoted for his total failure and mismanagement of the NHS.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 January, 2018 09:00
Quote:
Yorkie
Can't believe you guys are still discussing this and no-one is conceeding an inch. Like a never ending chess game!
If you have a spare 20 minutes then this recent interview might interest you?

A lot of common sense and pragmatism.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 February, 2018 15:17
The oft used phrase about splinters in ar$es for benchsitters, is surely even more apt for Theresa May, how much longer can she sit astride the fence. It's an amazing feat so far.

 
BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 February, 2018 18:29
Quote:
woodpecker
The oft used phrase about splinters in ar$es for benchsitters, is surely even more apt for Theresa May, how much longer can she sit astride the fence. It's an amazing feat so far.

With loony creationists to one side and xenophobic public school twerps on the other, I think I'd stay on the fence as well.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
05 February, 2018 21:46
Woodpecker.

The point of a Prime Minister is that she is in charge of the whole country.
Just in case you have forgotten, because presumably you so-called 'won' the Referendum, there are an awful lot of us very uneasy indeed (16 million odd) about what is taking place, have to trust that she and her team will do the best possible deal for the whole country, not just for those that spout the mantra "take back control".

Get off her case! The last thing we need for UK credibility is to be made a further laughing stock by forcing her out and getting whichever self-seeking knife wielding bloke "wins". Get a grip!

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 00:24
Quote:
BBandW
With loony creationists to one side and xenophobic public school twerps on the other, I think I'd stay on the fence as well.

What do you call the equivalent of Xenophobia when instead of irrationally disliking foreigners, you irrationally dislike non-foreigners?

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