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MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 13:50
Quote:
TCM2007
Quote:
woodpecker
I know that the Blair government failed to introduce transitional limits on the succession countries, but I dont think we can control immigration from the EU now can we? If yes, how?

Physically barring people no, but if they don't have a job or can prove they are actively seeking work they can't claim benefits and have to leave. Many other EU countries enforce this.

OK

I also think that some of our entitlements are a lot less restricted than other countries like healthcare, where co-payment/contribution is a requirement, which means that as we can't restrict benefits to UK citizens, we have to treat EU citizens the same.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 15:29
"why economic studies are the only thing that should matter to people and not the plethora of other completely justifiable reasons. "

Usually I find most of "the plethora of other completely justifiable reasons" turn out to be pretty spurious or simply prejudice if you accept the economic reasons. Can you suggest any?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 16:05
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
TCM2007
Quote:
woodpecker
I know that the Blair government failed to introduce transitional limits on the succession countries, but I dont think we can control immigration from the EU now can we? If yes, how?

Physically barring people no, but if they don't have a job or can prove they are actively seeking work they can't claim benefits and have to leave. Many other EU countries enforce this.

OK

I also think that some of our entitlements are a lot less restricted than other countries like healthcare, where co-payment/contribution is a requirement, which means that as we can't restrict benefits to UK citizens, we have to treat EU citizens the same.

Basically you can't prevent EU citizens coming here to look for work, but:
1. There is no system of keeping track of them and chucking them out after 3 months if they've failed to get a job. There isn't even a system for matching entries with exits.
2. Unlike the rest of the EU, The NHS isn't an insurance based system and therefore treats people who aren't entitled. Whether the cost of this is significant is debatable but the perception is poor.
3. As Woody mentioned, Labour chose not to implement transitional arrangements.
4. Conservatives declared an aim to limit net migration to 'tens of thousands' whilst admitting way more than 100k from non-EU countries. Perversely they still include students in those numbers even though they pay handsomely whilst they are here and mostly go home afterwards.

But somehow leaving the EU is going to fix all this!



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 16:08
Quote:
DanWiley
"why economic studies are the only thing that should matter to people and not the plethora of other completely justifiable reasons. "
Usually I find most of "the plethora of other completely justifiable reasons" turn out to be pretty spurious or simply prejudice if you accept the economic reasons. Can you suggest any?

So national identity is not justifiable.

I take it you won't be submitting to prejudice and supporting England this weekend?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 16:30
"So national identity is not justifiable. "

I don't think it works like that. I don't know anyone who felt forced to feel like they were European. On the other hand, I know plenty that felt they were both English and European without one diluting the other in any way.

"I take it you won't be submitting to prejudice and supporting England this weekend?"

Well, quite. I'm British. I am also English (and not Welsh or Irish or Scottish in ant meaningful way). I have no contradictions there. If England are playing Wales, I'll support England. I'll support a Scot representing Britain in the Olympics without a thought. If Bath are playing Tiggers I'll support Bath. France Vs South Africa would be an interesting one, I'm might nominally support SA, but I have to admit a part of that would a lighthearted prejudice (no more) against France. If, say, Holland played Brazil in the football, I probably would feel closer to the Dutch. Certainly if there were a European team of some form, yes I'd be behind it.

I find it perfectly possible to stack those identities without diluting any one of them. I suspect we all do it.

So no, I don't buy people losing their national identity as a reason. Did anyone really feel less English because we were a member?

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 17:14
"I take it you won't be submitting to prejudice and supporting England this weekend?"

Now that is a truly moronic statement , Dan response perfect. (Sm152)

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 18:58
Quote:
DanWiley
I don't think it works like that. I don't know anyone who felt forced to feel like they were European. On the other hand, I know plenty that felt they were both English and European without one diluting the other in any way.

For whatever reason, these islands have grouped together. We all paid taxes to help our fellow men.

Whether you agree or not, people don't feel the same solidarity with those from European nations. The shared historical and cultural bonds aren't there. For many, the US is the more natural ally. Whether they agreed or not, they are paying taxes to help other EU states.

A belief that this shared solidarity should be extended to EU states above the rest of the world is no more morally pure than saying that this solidarity should be extended to this nation above the rest of the world.

It's also a lot more relatable. The reason why the EU wants you to feel European is because the only common system Europeans have is the EU. There are no common or historical cultural ties.

Quote:
DanWiley

I find it perfectly possible to stack those identities without diluting any one of them. I suspect we all do it.

So no, I don't buy people losing their national identity as a reason. Did anyone really feel less English because we were a member?

If they felt less English, there wouldn't be a Leave vote. It is their traditions and customs that were under threat and have changed quite drastically in some regions.

I know you've never lived in a Bradford or a Bolton, but to say there is no impact on the local culture would be naive at best.

Just because traditions and culture are intangible doesn't mean they dont exist.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:00
Quote:
BathPatriot
"I take it you won't be submitting to prejudice and supporting England this weekend?"
Now that is a truly moronic statement , Dan response perfect. (Sm152)

Moronic is calling people racist who don't agree with you.

Pointing out that supporting the English team suggests some form of national identity (and with it the desire to be better than another nation - prejudice) is just fact.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:18
I believe, eventually, we will come together as a world. It will happen by neighbors coming together. The US wants to dominate other nations, they aren't going to come together on equal terms fit a long long time. the EU are well ahead in coming together as equals. The geographic distance is also a major factor. We do share many beliefs with the US, bit as many as you suggest though. We certainly share many ideals with our European neighbors as well. Many of us, at least 1/3, really did want to be a part of the us. I'm yet to meet anyone over the age of 9 who wants the UK to be part of the us.

How you can say we don't have historical and cultural bonds with EU countries is beyond me. I think you're struggling with reality there.

Given we'll be poorer not paying those taxes, we appear to be cutting off out nose objecting to them. A trade deal with the us will cost us much more.

Cultures and traditions change for all sorts of reasons, add you say we've definitely imported a lot of American culture despite practically no immigration from the states.

I've lived in Rushholm in Manchester, possibly more affluent than the areas you're thinking of, but in terms of mixed culture pretty well up there. The culture that this mix had bought to the country is a massive addition.

So what you're actually talking about is a fear of change, quite an irrational one as it happens as I've seen a lot gained by mixing these cultures. I can't think of much that we've lost as a result. What culture or tradition had been lost? Name something.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:20
You also should learn the meaning of the word prejudice

"preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:26
Quote:
DanWiley
You also should learn the meaning of the word prejudice
"preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."

1.1 Dislike, hostility, or unjust behaviour deriving from preconceived and unfounded opinions.

Nevertheless explain the reason behind wanting a sports team to beat another and why it matters.

It's no less reasonable than wanting to see the traditions you enjoy continue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2018 19:27 by Substitute.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:32
What's unfounded about me wanting my team to win? I don't dislike Wales, I'm not hostile to the Welsh, I certainly wouldn't wish an injustice on them. I don't see how my desire to see England win is preconceived.


Again, can you name those traditions you've lost?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:46
Quote:
DanWiley
How you can say we don't have historical and cultural bonds with EU countries is beyond me. I think you're struggling with reality there.

What common historical and cultural ties do we have that extend beyond the timeline of the EU? What common institutions did we have?

Quote:
DanWiley
Given we'll be poorer not paying those taxes, we appear to be cutting off out nose objecting to them. A trade deal with the us will cost us much more.

But is this argument not strange. That migration is good as long as long as they use less benefits than they pay for. Basically, as long as they subsidise it services and make it cheaper for me to get a driveway, immigration is good.

Doesn't sound like a shared identity. More exploitation of differences in median wage.

Quote:
DanWiley
I can't think of much that we've lost as a result. What culture or tradition had been lost? Name something.

You can't, which is why you can't understand why people think differently to you. Ask that to someone who has seen their neighborhood in Bradford change beyond recognition. Different languages, different cultures, loss of community, increased crime.

Basically the Casey review.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:50
"What common historical and cultural ties do we have that extend beyond the timeline of the EU? What common institutions did we have? "

5 nations. What do we have with the us?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:53
Basically you can't name a single tradition we've lost. Frankly, add traditions come and go naturally, that's pretty much that straw man knocked down.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 19:54
Migration benefits both parties, otherwise they wouldn't come, or they'd go back.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 20:46
Quote:
DanWiley
"So national identity is not justifiable. "
I don't think it works like that. I don't know anyone who felt forced to feel like they were European. On the other hand, I know plenty that felt they were both English and European without one diluting the other in any way.

"I take it you won't be submitting to prejudice and supporting England this weekend?"

Well, quite. I'm British. I am also English (and not Welsh or Irish or Scottish in ant meaningful way). I have no contradictions there. If England are playing Wales, I'll support England. I'll support a Scot representing Britain in the Olympics without a thought. If Bath are playing Tiggers I'll support Bath. France Vs South Africa would be an interesting one, I'm might nominally support SA, but I have to admit a part of that would a lighthearted prejudice (no more) against France. If, say, Holland played Brazil in the football, I probably would feel closer to the Dutch. Certainly if there were a European team of some form, yes I'd be behind it.

I find it perfectly possible to stack those identities without diluting any one of them. I suspect we all do it.

So no, I don't buy people losing their national identity as a reason. Did anyone really feel less English because we were a member?
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=267
I couldn't agree more.
I am perfectly capable of being a proud Moonraker, a Westcountyman, an Englishman, a Britain and a European, all without the slightest wiff of hipocracy.

Quote:
Substitute
Moronic is calling people racist who don't agree with you.

Pointing out that supporting the English team suggests some form of national identity (and with it the desire to be better than another nation - prejudice) is just fact.
Not wanting to speak for Dan, or anyone else. The people I accuse of voting based on racism are the people who told me that that im no longer welcome in our country, the morning after the vote,because I married a Frenchwoman.
Or the people who tell her, to her face, to "fuck off out of our country".
How about whoever through the brick that came through our window smeared in dog shite?
All three of these events happened to myself & Alison within a week of the Brexit vote. You probably don't want to know what we've been told about from patients who happen to be Polish, Italian or German.

Quite honestly, I don't have a problem with accusing those who apologise/enable the above as being racist either.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2018 21:28 by Which Tyler.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 21:59
Sub, I never called anyone a racist , I just know that Brexit has stoked the fires of white nationalism and that immigration was one of the main deciding factors in the vote. What WT said above is truly horrific but such acts have increased because of Brexit.

So Sub, please share with us your vision of Britain or maybe England??

I myself like hearing different languages and seeing a multitude of peoples from all parts of the globe living in my streets, i have no fear of the other whatsoever , in fact, the more diverse the better, but that’s just me.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 23:47
Quote:
Which Tyler

Not wanting to speak for Dan, or anyone else. The people I accuse of voting based on racism are the people who told me that that im no longer welcome in our country, the morning after the vote,because I married a Frenchwoman.
Or the people who tell her, to her face, to "fuck off out of our country".
How about whoever through the brick that came through our window smeared in dog shite?
All three of these events happened to myself & Alison within a week of the Brexit vote. You probably don't want to know what we've been told about from patients who happen to be Polish, Italian or German.

I'm sorry to hear that WT. I hope the perpetrator is caught and brought to justice.

FWIW, I'm married to an EU national, my son has a non-UK EU passport and I try and be as active in that community as possible. I can say that no EU national (inc. my wife or son) I know has had a similar experience, or even mentioned a hate crime.

It is also worth noting that the spike in hate crime prior to the recent general election was higher than the EU referendum, according to Home Office statistics.

Of course, it doesn't make what you have been through any better.

Quote:
Which Tyler
Quite honestly, I don't have a problem with accusing those who apologise/enable the above as being racist either.

Nobody is apologising for criminals an criminality. But is equally unacceptable to tar swathes of the popuation with the same brush. Recently Leave donors (and other prominent campaigners) received death threats. Are we to tar all Remainers with the same brush?

Being reactionary means you are almost certainly condemning people 'guilty' who are 'innocent'. This works on both sides of the spectrum. Far better that the actual perpetrators are caught and that we persist with our tradition of getting to the facts of the case.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 February, 2018 00:06
Quote:
BathPatriot
Sub, I never called anyone a racist , I just know that Brexit has stoked the fires of white nationalism and that immigration was one of the main deciding factors in the vote. What WT said above is truly horrific but such acts have increased because of Brexit.

I am sure immigration was of concern to voters. Of course it is stupid to say that is white nationalism (or even the political doctrine of nationalism) as the areas with the highest leave vote have some of the least racially diverse population (in terms of skin colour).

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the immigration policy of this country. It is not racist, nor nationalist. This country has finite resources, finite services and a culture. In fact the primary argument put forward for immigration, as espoused by Dan, is this report that says they pay in more than they get out. Taking advantage of lower wages to put your country first...

Quote:
BathPatriot
So Sub, please share with us your vision of Britain or maybe England??

That the nation, the UK (not Britain) is the last source of recourse. That our democracy is decentralised (not federalised) as far as possible and remains as direct as possible. I want application of an adversarial legal system and habeas corpus. On immigration, I want this country to apply logic to meet the needs of our citizens regardless of country of origin.

I don't fear this populace - even considering they could vote Corbyn in. We don't have European systems of indirect proportional representation (where it is hard to remove ruling personnel - see Germany) and yet we have never fallen to Fascism or Communism. In recent times, we have never had a far right party in parliament, nor a far left one.

Quote:
BathPatriot
I myself like hearing different languages and seeing a multitude of peoples from all parts of the globe living in my streets, i have no fear of the other whatsoever , in fact, the more diverse the better, but that’s just me.

I like consuming other cultures as well. I have no fear of any culture or race (though I am not afriad to criticise what I consider the negative aspects). But consuming cultures is very different to losing your own. The Casey report is the best public summation of the difference is living in area with low levels of immigration and high levels of integration as opposed to those areas with high levels of immigration and low levels of integration.

Extrapolating the South-West to the whole of the UK, is to miss the point.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 February, 2018 00:21
"But consuming cultures is very different to losing your own."

One, really, really easy question, posed multiple times. What culture have we lost?

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 February, 2018 01:48
[www.theguardian.com]

Crops left rotting in the fields due to lack of migrant labour to pick them. Make the benefits scroungers do it, that's what I say. Grrr!



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2018 01:49 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 13:43
I doubt Boris's speech yesterday converted a single Remainer to his cause.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 14:21
Quote:
jayeatman
I doubt Boris's speech yesterday converted a single Remainer to his cause.

Nothing he could say would change a remainers mind.

It's the most irritating and boring thing about Brexit that neither side is willing to see the positives in the other sides arguments.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 14:34
Well, certainly someone who lied about the positives during the campaign, then said "look at all the positives" without pointing out a single positive won't be that convincing.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 14:43
Quote:
DanWiley
Well, certainly someone who lied about the positives during the campaign, then said "look at all the positives" without pointing out a single positive won't be that convincing.

A Liberal such as yourself wouldn't have listened even if he had.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 14:46
Try me, see if you can list a positive.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 14:50
Quote:
DanWiley
Try me, see if you can list a positive.

My positive wouldn't tie in with your Liberal values so there's no point wasting my time.

Anyway from my perspective whatever happens I see Brexit as a win win situation.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/02/2018 15:13 by OutsideBath.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 15:00
Very little point in you posting in the first place then really.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 15:04
Quote:
DanWiley
Very little point in you posting in the first place then really.

My feelings on you so I guess we're even.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 15:15
Not really, I was at least interested in a discussion. But I'd guess this exchange is tiresome to most, so if that is all you've got to say we'll leave it.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 16:58
Boris Johnson = does he have any credibility at all?
For me, his value is to distract or compete with the Mogg.

He certainly doesn't have persuasive political talent.
anotherreasontofeelsorry forTheresaMay........................(Sm147)

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 17:34
Johnson only ever has his best interests in mind, the sole focus for his speech was the keys to number 10. Way too obvious, another chip away at whatever miniscule support is temporaroly keeping May afloat

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 17:38
Quote:
gaz59
Johnson only ever has his best interests in mind, the sole focus for his speech was the keys to number 10. Way too obvious, another chip away at whatever miniscule support is temporaroly keeping May afloat

Is Johnson really any different in that respect to every other MP in U.K. Politics? Never yet come across an MP that wasn't in it for their own personal gain.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 19:31
Quote:
annie blackthorn
He certainly doesn't have persuasive political talent.
anotherreasontofeelsorry forTheresaMay........................(Sm147)

Ah, Theresa May... that paragon of persuasive political talent.

(In fairness to Boris, the elections he has been front and centre of, he has won).

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 20:39
"Never yet come across an MP that wasn't in it for their own personal gain."

Have you met many? I've met plenty who seem to have genuine motivations for their work, I'd include my current Tory MP in that.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 21:55
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
gaz59
Johnson only ever has his best interests in mind, the sole focus for his speech was the keys to number 10. Way too obvious, another chip away at whatever miniscule support is temporaroly keeping May afloat

Is Johnson really any different in that respect to every other MP in U.K. Politics? Never yet come across an MP that wasn't in it for their own personal gain.

Well, off top of my head I would name Milliband x2, Corbyn, Kinnock, John Smith, Alan Johnson, Shirley Williams, Gordon Brown, Diane Abbott, Gwyneth Dunwoody, Estelle Morris, Mo Molam, Margaret Beckett and many more who have enjoyed an esteemed reputation as a member of parliament undertaking the role for a sense of public duty and making a difference to the lives of disadvantaged people of all backgrounds

Johnson no doubt believes that is his motivation but his actions say something entirely different

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 21:59
But you haven't named any Tories amongst that lot!

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 22:00
Quote:
Boldangrey
But you haven't named any Tories amongst that lot!

Yeah, and he named David Miliband and Gordon Brown amongst that lot!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 February, 2018 22:46
Quote:
DanWiley
"Never yet come across an MP that wasn't in it for their own personal gain."
Have you met many? I've met plenty who seem to have genuine motivations for their work, I'd include my current Tory MP in that.

I've met a lot from a cross section of parties and all gave me the impression of being consumed by power and/or money.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 07:49
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
Boldangrey
But you haven't named any Tories amongst that lot!

Yeah, and he named David Miliband and Gordon Brown amongst that lot!

Two very highly principled, values-driven politicians. Stark contrast to the self-interested, ego-driven bunch that are jockeying for pole position in readiness for the 'starters orders' flag

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 07:53
"Yeah, and he named David Miliband and Gordon Brown amongst that lot!"

Have you met David or Gordon? Whilst they undoubtedly have their faults being overly self interested never stuck me as I've of them. What makes you think they were?

I'm surprised ob can honestly say he's found ALL of a significant and wide selection of MPs he's met were consumed by power and money. My experience has been quite the opposite, meeting them in person has usually (but not always) shown them in a far better light than the media has shown them. Seriously, who is you current MP, or any other if it pleases you, what have they done in person to convince you of their greed?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 08:14
Quote:
DanWiley
Try me, see if you can list a positive.

We will be able to buy vacuum cleaners in excess of 950 watts

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 08:27
Quote:
DanWiley
"Yeah, and he named David Miliband and Gordon Brown amongst that lot!"
Have you met David or Gordon? Whilst they undoubtedly have their faults being overly self interested never stuck me as I've of them. What makes you think they were?

I'm surprised ob can honestly say he's found ALL of a significant and wide selection of MPs he's met were consumed by power and money. My experience has been quite the opposite, meeting them in person has usually (but not always) shown them in a far better light than the media has shown them. Seriously, who is you current MP, or any other if it pleases you, what have they done in person to convince you of their greed?

My current MP is a Tory so wouldn't give them the time of day. As for naming those I've met wouldn't be appropriate.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 09:07
A chap I know has just produced the Annual Statement for his Investment Trust which has just been announced on the Stock Exchange this morning.......here are the first four lines which might introduce a bit of levity and a wry grin!


The Treasury predicted I would become the most unpopular man in Britain. This was the only correct forecast that the Treasury made in the several years that I was chancellor.
Former Chancellor of the Exchequer Norman, now Lord, Lamont.

Get your facts right, then you can distort them as you please. Mark Twain.


If you put the...government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there would be a shortage of sand. Professor Milton Friedman.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 09:38
"If you put the...government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there would be a shortage of sand. Professor Milton Friedman."

I genuinely know someone who is exporting sand TO one of the emirates, I forget which.


"My current MP is a Tory so wouldn't give them the time of day. As for naming those I've met wouldn't be appropriate."

Why not? Surely you're going to cite some real actual things that make you feel this way and not just show the prejudiced discrimination of your first sentence?

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 10:14
Blimey Dan......truth stranger than fiction!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
16 February, 2018 10:18
Wrong type of sand, too smooth apparently.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 10:14
Quote:
DanWiley
Try me, see if you can list a positive.

You're going to get a blue passport (admittedly it won't allow you to live and work in 27 other EU countries, but swings and roundabouts..)

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 10:45
yeah, but I never had a blue passport so I just can't yet buy into the life transforming change it will have. I do recall my parent's passports being quite different. I'm one of those people who always thought they were black, but it was a long time ago and I was quite young, so I'll accept they were actually a very, very dark blue.

Still, if I don't really recall the colour, I just must represent at least half the population to whom the colour really can't even be of any symbolic value.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 10:56
Quote:
DanWiley
yeah, but I never had a blue passport so I just can't yet buy into the life transforming change it will have. I do recall my parent's passports being quite different. I'm one of those people who always thought they were black, but it was a long time ago and I was quite young, so I'll accept they were actually a very, very dark blue.
Still, if I don't really recall the colour, I just must represent at least half the population to whom the colour really can't even be of any symbolic value.

Dan,

I think its time you got on board with this Brexit, I've already pointed out about the vacuum cleaners, the blueness and don't forget you will be able to work more than 40 hours a week, what's not to like?

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 11:30
But your passport will cost a lot more - [www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk]

And, of course, we could have had a blue passport in the EU all along.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-37fd43b654bd49ee8823ad198ad14cec

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 11:55
It has never been a requirement, simply a recommendation which all 27 countries have followed with the exception of Croatia

But no doubt Boris will tell us otherwise

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 13:10
Don't forget we also get:
1. Control over our own borders (except the Irish one, nothing to do with us, it's all the Paddys' fault) which we already had.
2. Control of our own laws (but not by Parliament, those pesky MPs are not to be trusted at all) which we already had.
3. Ability to make our own trade deals (but not anytime soon) so we can replace all the ones we already have with worse ones.
4. £350m/week for the NHS. Yes really, on my life [I wish, Boris].
5. Less brown people in general, except for the highly qualified ones from those lovely ex-colonies of ours.
6. Lots and lots of cake.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 13:21
I've been looking for a 1600w navy blue vacuum on line, the downside is I will have to do the hoovering myself as the cleaner's gone back home

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 13:29
Quote:
woodpecker
I've been looking for a 1600w navy blue vacuum on line, the downside is I will have to do the hoovering myself as the cleaner's gone back home

Get with C21 woodpecker and buy a robotic one from our Brexit supporting sponsor Mr Dyson. If you have one of those voice activated home helps from those tax dodging efficient US tech companies just ask it to do it. You can save yourself loads of time and post more frequently on COML... (Sm100)



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 13:34
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
woodpecker
I've been looking for a 1600w navy blue vacuum on line, the downside is I will have to do the hoovering myself as the cleaner's gone back home

Get with C21 woodpecker and buy a robotic one from our Brexit supporting sponsor Mr Dyson. If you have one of those voice activated home helps from those tax dodging efficient US tech companies just ask it to do it. You can save yourself loads of time and post more frequently on COML... (Sm100)

I already bought one, but after about 3 months the battery died - I did buy a cheap one though not from Dyson, the @#$%& he wants £800

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 14:06
Quote:
jayeatman
5. Less brown people in general, except for the highly qualified ones from those lovely ex-colonies of ours.

Yes, because Europe is full of non-whites. Or is it that you believe that despite never having had a fascist government or dictator, without the benevolent EU we'll helplessly lurch to the right.

Of course, now we might not discriminate against majority non-white countries and treat them equally to other non-UK nationals, instead of inferior to our European brethren.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 15:15
We seem to be helplessly lurching to the right, right about now.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 16:56
I suspect we will "lurch" back into the centre ground about May 2022!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 17:00
Quote:
jayeatman
Don't forget we also get:
1. Control over our own borders (except the Irish one, nothing to do with us, it's all the Paddys' fault) which we already had.
2. Control of our own laws (but not by Parliament, those pesky MPs are not to be trusted at all) which we already had.
3. Ability to make our own trade deals (but not anytime soon) so we can replace all the ones we already have with worse ones.
4. £350m/week for the NHS. Yes really, on my life [I wish, Boris].
5. Less brown people in general, except for the highly qualified ones from those lovely ex-colonies of ours.
6. Lots and lots of cake.

Will we also get to choose the type of cake? Hope so because I'm a bit fussy on what cake I eat.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 17:19
"I suspect we will "lurch" back into the centre ground about May 2022!"

You'd be happy with 4 more years of this! I can't see us lasting (without reaching a crisis point) that long.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 17:47
Quote:
DanWiley
"I suspect we will "lurch" back into the centre ground about May 2022!"
You'd be happy with 4 more years of this! I can't see us lasting (without reaching a crisis point) that long.

I'm ok with another 4 years as it's better than the scary alternative of a momentum government.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 17:57
Limping along with May is, I would agree, slightly more appealing that Corbyn. I don't think May is going to last that long and then we've serious problems which may include a momentum government*.

* I expect not, I think Corbyn will be found out, but the alternatives are no better.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 19:12
I don't think this government is particularly bad. Since May took over it's been so grey that it seems unfair to call it bad. It hasn't done anything but it has not made things significantly worse either.

Of course, it will only ever be the Brexit government. And we won't know the outcome of that until the 11th hour.

Nevertheless, the optics have been terrible. Made worse by Labours tendency to be given a free pass by large parts of the media for things the Conservatives or conservatives would be massacred for.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
19 February, 2018 23:02
Rather like Belgium with no government for 18 months, the Germans with no proper government for six months........personally I am very keen on limited government!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 10:15
Post-Brexit UK won't be like Mad Max, says David Davis

I'm glad we've set the bar so high as to be 'not post-apocalyptic'. And this is the the guy in charge and one of the top cheerleaders. What a joke.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 10:33
I have now got to the point of "burying head in sand" mentality.
Wake me up when its over.

That's if I havn't actually shuffled off this mortal coil by that date.(Sm115)

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 10:51
Quote:
hasta
Post-Brexit UK won't be like Mad Max, says David Davis
I'm glad we've set the bar so high as to be 'not post-apocalyptic'. And this is the the guy in charge and one of the top cheerleaders. What a joke.


Read the article.

Mr Davis said ..... the UK will "continue our track record of meeting high standards" once outside the EU.

Doesn't sound like low standards to me.

It's Remoaners who want to see doom and gloom at every turn.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 10:58
I did read the article. It's not my quote.

Quote:
"They fear that Brexit could lead to an Anglo-Saxon race to the bottom," Mr Davis said.
"With Britain plunged into a Mad Max-style world borrowed from dystopian fiction."

No one else brought this up. It's not remain voters saying this, no one else has said this. It's the Brexit secretary. He literally set the bar at 'it won't be as bad as a post-apocalyptic wasteland'.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 11:06
Surely when Mr Davis is saying 'They fear..' he is not expressing his opinion and he goes on to be overwhelmingly positive..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/02/2018 11:07 by Boldangrey.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 11:10
It is positive compared to a vision of pitched street battles for the last gallon of petrol.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 11:17
Quote:
Boldangrey
Surely when Mr Davis is saying 'They fear..' he is not expressing his opinion and he goes on to be overwhelmingly positive..

He's saying 'they fear...' which literally no one has said they fear, and then he's said it won't be that. Which is an exercise in setting expectations so low as to be impercetible from an apocalypse.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 12:04
Quote:
hasta
Post-Brexit UK won't be like Mad Max, says David Davis
I'm glad we've set the bar so high as to be 'not post-apocalyptic'. And this is the the guy in charge and one of the top cheerleaders. What a joke.


During last year it was common to see leavers compare the scale of the task ahead to mobilisation for the second world war, so in some ways we have made a leap forward to a more futuristic post apocalyptic reference point...progress of sorts.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 12:24
Quote:
hasta

He's saying 'they fear...' which literally no one has said they fear, and then he's said it won't be that.

I don't think it is correct to say that the EU doesn't fear a race to the bottom. Customs Union, Single Market etc. wouldn't be up for debate if they cared little for deregulation.

Likewise our countries base and it's irrational fear of Chlorine-washed Chicken.

Still, it's another odd debate. As if the EU standards are the pinnacle of all standards and then anything we do will make us immeasurably more unhealthy, worse off...

Of course, sone EU standards are good. Lots are horrible. Some like industrial safety we are miles ahead of Europe. There are probably even areas where the UK could have stronger regulation and still get a competitive advantage.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 12:30
The Pound-to-Euro exchange rate jumped over half a percent to reach 1.1347, off a day low at 1.1273, on news the European Parliament has released a text calling for flexibility in Brexit talks.

The European Parliament is said to be preparing a "detailed," 60-paragraph resolution which will call for more flexibility in future relationship talks with Britain that would allow for privileged single-market access.

This could be a gamechanger in that if true, it represents a notable softening in Europe's stance.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 13:45
Quote:
woodpecker
The Pound-to-Euro exchange rate jumped over half a percent to reach 1.1347, off a day low at 1.1273, on news the European Parliament has released a text calling for flexibility in Brexit talks.
The European Parliament is said to be preparing a "detailed," 60-paragraph resolution which will call for more flexibility in future relationship talks with Britain that would allow for privileged single-market access.

This could be a gamechanger in that if true, it represents a notable softening in Europe's stance.

The devil is in the detail I suppose. Link

Quote:
The Institute For Government says association agreements are usually characterised by four features:
...
"In return for some access to the Single Market, a non-EU country is often required to share part of relevant EU regulations– so-called EU acquis.

That sounds a bit like what some might call a Vassal State?

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 13:59
Quote:
Boldangrey

Mr Davis said ..... the UK will "continue our track record of meeting high standards" once outside the EU.

Doesn't sound like low standards to me.

It's Remoaners who want to see doom and gloom at every turn.

Great words so long as it means we don't get the American style food standards in the chase for a free trade deal then we will all be happy

Just sounds far too much like a wide sweeping, meaningless generalisation which has been the central feature of everything coming from his office

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 14:57
I still think one price of a US trade deal will be a privatised health service implemented by US owned companies. I know Trump's got his own problems there, but his attacks on the NHS do little to convince me otherwise and May has refused to rule it out.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 15:54
Quote:
gaz59
Great words so long as it means we don't get the American style food standards in the chase for a free trade deal then we will all be happy

Why do you want to make people poorer?

Quote:
gaz59
Just sounds far too much like a wide sweeping, meaningless generalisation which has been the central feature of everything coming from his office

As opposed to Labour suggesting that this government wanted to engage in a race to the bottom.

Quote:
DanWiley
I still think one price of a US trade deal will be a privatised health service implemented by US owned companies. May has refused to rule it out.

What does it matter who provides NHS care if the principles are the same?

But the idea that the NHS will be run by an American health firm, laughable.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 16:01
Comment piece from today's Times:

According to the most recent Future of England survey, a joint initiative of the University of Edinburgh and Cardiff University, 81 per cent of Leave voters in England believe destabilising the Northern Irish peace process a price worth paying if that’s what Brexit requires. That’s quite something. But then so is the discovery that 88 per cent of those Leave voters consider Brexit more important than the survival of the United Kingdom. That is, they would accept Scottish independence if doing so guaranteed Brexit.

Now some of this may be a matter of prioritising something that’s happening now — Brexit — over hypothetical scenarios that are, perhaps, too hypothetical to be properly quantified in the here and now. That is, if the UK were on the brink of collapse even Leave voters in England may recalibrate their priorities. And yet, even in the abstract, these findings seem — and feel — telling.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 16:13
Quote:
DanWiley
I still think one price of a US trade deal will be a privatised health service implemented by US owned companies. I know Trump's got his own problems there, but his attacks on the NHS do little to convince me otherwise and May has refused to rule it out.

The NHS has been chronicly underfunded by successive governments and has been heading towards privatisation for years, nothing to do with Brexit and future trade deals with the US.

Personally I wouldn't wait for the NHS to treat any important health issue I may have in the future.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 16:17
Substitute, how the heck does keeping out chlorinated chicken and meat stuffed with antibiotics and steroids make people poorer?

Surely not a basic, unintelligent argument that cheaper is better?

Cos that is exactly what a race to the bottom is all about

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 17:17
"What does it matter who provides NHS care if the principles are the same? "

Well, that's the point, the principles won't be the same. You will have to pay for it. It will be as inefficient and an ineffective as the Us system is. But people will make a lot of money from it.

"But the idea that the NHS will be run by an American health firm, laughable."

Well, you might not call it the NHS, but why is it laughable? Companies are already running and making a profit from your ill health, the idea that they might be US owned doesn't seem that hard to imagine.

Why is it so infeasible that drugs will form part of a trade deal with the US? Seems like the sort of deal we might well strike, they'll buy our flashy hovers if we agree to only buy their drugs.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 17:21
Quote:
gaz59
Substitute, how the heck does keeping out chlorinated chicken and meat stuffed with antibiotics and steroids make people poorer?
Surely not a basic, unintelligent argument that cheaper is better?

Because it costs more and there is such a thing as personal choice.

If I am happy to pay less for chlorine washed chicken (which has killed less people than our campylobacter-riddled chicken) then why shouldn't I.

After all, all Foodstuffs have to be proven safe - the EU just decides to add on to it with the 'precautionary principle'.

All your suggesting is making people with less pay more so that you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 17:34
The point of the chlorine washing isn't really the chlorine itself, its the idea that its hiding the fact that food standards in general in the US are embarrassingly low and I don't really want to make them acceptable here.

You won't get a choice because they just won't label it as chlorine washed as they are not obliged to.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 17:50
I've not got a problem with chlorine washed chickens per se, but they are symbolic of a de-regulated profit-above-all-else factory style farming system. Sure it produces cheap food, which in turn produces obese Americans, so if you're going to praise the American food industry, I suggest you find out a bit more about it first.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 17:56
Quote:
DanWiley
The point of the chlorine washing isn't really the chlorine itself, its the idea that its hiding the fact that food standards in general in the US are embarrassingly low and I don't really want to make them acceptable here.
You won't get a choice because they just won't label it as chlorine washed as they are not obliged to.


I was going to point out the chlorine chicken as yet another benefit in my series of benefits for leaving the EU, but based on your answer, I won't include that one. What about the hormone reared beef?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 18:19
Quote:
jayeatman
I've not got a problem with chlorine washed chickens per se, but they are symbolic of a de-regulated profit-above-all-else factory style farming system. Sure it produces cheap food, which in turn produces obese Americans, so if you're going to praise the American food industry, I suggest you find out a bit more about it first.

They're not deregulated, they are less stringent regulations (in some areas, more in others). I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit.

So poor people should pay more to stop them becoming fat? Why should only rich people be allowed to become fat (is it because they pay more into the NHS).

Can you please enlighten about American food industry, because my experience working in the food and food additive industry has clearly not proved sufficient.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 18:50
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman
I've not got a problem with chlorine washed chickens per se, but they are symbolic of a de-regulated profit-above-all-else factory style farming system. Sure it produces cheap food, which in turn produces obese Americans, so if you're going to praise the American food industry, I suggest you find out a bit more about it first.

They're not deregulated, they are less stringent regulations (in some areas, more in others). I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit.

So poor people should pay more to stop them becoming fat? Why should only rich people be allowed to become fat (is it because they pay more into the NHS).

Can you please enlighten about American food industry, because my experience working in the food and food additive industry has clearly not proved sufficient.

Aren't poor people already fat?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 19:18
"I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit. "

Isn't that one reason we need regulation?

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 20:01
Quote:
Substitute
I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit.

Then they're doing a p1ss poor job of it. Most UK farms don't make a profit without EU subsidies. Take away state subsidies and the majority of UK farms will go bust, have to put up their prices so high no one will be able to afford the produce (and then go bust), or the UK government will have to replace the EU money. Personally, I'm greatly in favour of farmers being *required* to manage their land ecologically sustainable ways in exchange for the state money but importation of tariff free US produce will destroy our agriculture because we cannot currently compete on price.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
20 February, 2018 20:24
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Substitute
I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit.

Then they're doing a p1ss poor job of it. Most UK farms don't make a profit without EU subsidies. Take away state subsidies and the majority of UK farms will go bust, have to put up their prices so high no one will be able to afford the produce (and then go bust), or the UK government will have to replace the EU money. Personally, I'm greatly in favour of farmers being *required* to manage their land ecologically sustainable ways in exchange for the state money but importation of tariff free US produce will destroy our agriculture because we cannot currently compete on price.

And will just add to the profit margin for the likes of Tesco

Mad Max here we come

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 09:06
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Substitute
I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit.

Then they're doing a p1ss poor job of it. Most UK farms don't make a profit without EU subsidies.

Farmers include subsidies in their profit and certainly CAP has contributed to farmland misuse as Farmers have 'chased the profit'.

Quote:
joethefanatic
...because we cannot currently compete on price.

As it is, we already can't compete in the single market. What is adding tariff-free American food going to do (as we presumably lose tariffs on European food)?

I also support subsidies being used to reward ecologically renewable practices, but also efficiency (which CAP does an awful job of) and Subsidies aren't going anywhere.

We might well as use the money that we spend to maintain the farming industry in this country to boost efficiency and the share of UK food it provides, rather than the (drastic) decline we have seen as part of the EU.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 10:34
Admittedly its from the Guardian, but still funny:



Brexit wasn’t going to be some Mad Max dystopian future, he (David Davis) continued....Not for the first time, people began to wonder if Davis had actually read his speech before delivering it. Never mind that less than two years previously, he had insisted the Brexit negotiations would be the easiest in history and that the UK was heading for a land of milk and honey. Now all he was promising was that Britain wasn’t going to end up as a desert with gangs of marauding psychopathic petrol heads competing for supremacy. In driverless lawnmowers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 21/02/2018 10:35 by woodpecker.

 
BBWBaaBaa
BBWBaaBaa (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 10:58
Then they're doing a p1ss poor job of it. Most UK farms don't make a profit without EU subsidies. Take away state subsidies and the majority of UK farms will go bust, have to put up their prices so high no one will be able to afford the produce (and then go bust), or the UK government will have to replace the EU money. Personally, I'm greatly in favour of farmers being *required* to manage their land ecologically sustainable ways in exchange for the state money but importation of tariff free US produce will destroy our agriculture because we cannot currently compete on price.

A subject that I know a little about...

The phrase "a level playing field" gets batted around a lot, and there was a fairly level field for farmers within the EU, (accepting the EUs many faults), but when we leave farmers will be reliant upon British Politicians for any subsidy/support, and personally I doubt whether the Brexiteers will be as committed to that support, as to leaving....
Most British farmers would be happy to farm in ecologically sustainable ways, in fact many already do! But "free trade" means more imports from USA, Brazil, Argentina, Australia, and New Zealand who will be ensuring that all those countries are working to the same standards? If they are not - then British Agriculture will have a huge problem competing! Or maybe, agriculture, and the countryside just don't matter in the modern world??

To steal a line from someone - "I probably don't know what I am talking about"....

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 12:33
Surely the hugely different agricultural landscape of those countries makes it impossible for our farmers to compete without tariffs or subsidies?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/02/2018 12:34 by gaz59.

 
BBWBaaBaa
BBWBaaBaa (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 12:41
Surely the hugely different agricultural landscape of those countries makes it impossible for our farmers to compete without tariffs or subsidies?

Yes!

But the debate both within the agricultural and countryside community is - do we trust our government to provide those subsidies? Or do we care whether there is support for rural communities?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 12:56
Quote:
gaz59
Surely the hugely different agricultural landscape of those countries makes it impossible for our farmers to compete without tariffs or subsidies?

We can't compete against the EU without subsidies anyway. That's just geography.

The amount available to our market that is tariff-free will have significantly less impact than the subsidies that are available for our farmers.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 13:49
From the times

Britain will ask the European Union to extend the Brexit transition period beyond 2020 with a “duration determined by how long it will take to prepare and implement the future partnership”.



That should send the nutters in the ERG into apoplectic rage

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