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DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 13:53
There's often nothing as permanent as a transition period. Us Bath fans should know that better than most.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 15:12
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman
I've not got a problem with chlorine washed chickens per se, but they are symbolic of a de-regulated profit-above-all-else factory style farming system. Sure it produces cheap food, which in turn produces obese Americans, so if you're going to praise the American food industry, I suggest you find out a bit more about it first.

They're not deregulated, they are less stringent regulations (in some areas, more in others). I'd imagine all farms exist to make a profit.

So poor people should pay more to stop them becoming fat? Why should only rich people be allowed to become fat (is it because they pay more into the NHS).

Can you please enlighten about American food industry, because my experience working in the food and food additive industry has clearly not proved sufficient.

Today's example: [www.theguardian.com]

All farms are not factory farms, but more in the USA are.

Semantics: For me less regulated = deregulated. Nobody says they don't have any regulations although when they are self-policed you wonder how effective they are.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 15:15
Quote:
woodpecker
From the times
Britain will ask the European Union to extend the Brexit transition period beyond 2020 with a “duration determined by how long it will take to prepare and implement the future partnership”.

That should send the nutters in the ERG into apoplectic rage

Won't go down well in Brussels either who seem to have a deadline of Dec 2020 in mind, presumably because that's the end of the current EU 7-year budget period.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 15:25
Yes, but I expect a further two years of contributions into the coffers will be acceptable to them.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 15:28
First thing TM promised was to guarantee our contribution to the budget up to 2020.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 15:30
Sure, and an extended transition period beyond then will come with the same contribution quid pro quo.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 16:11
Is this how Brexit dies? A transition period that never ends?

Right now, I can't see a meeting of minds over even the transition period. The Brexiteers are demanding that we're out as of Mar 2019 and the EU stating that we're in until the end of transition.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 16:17
Quote:
jayeatman
Is this how Brexit dies? A transition period that never ends?

It's probably how the political elite will pretend to leave the EU when in fact they have no intension of actually doing so.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 16:17
"Is this how Brexit dies? A transition period that never ends? "

I think this is a genuine possibility.

2019, big cheers, we've left the EU just got to get through this transition period.

2021, we haven't quite got to the right place, lets add a bit more time. Of course, we'll continue to pay it's worth it for us and only a small minority are going to kick up a fuss.

2023, just cross out the date and insert 2025, no one is listening anymore.

2025, why aren't we able to influence the EU's direction? We pay in as much as anyone, we're effectively part of their free market and so we have to meet all their standards anyway.

Mileage on the dates may vary.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 16:22
Maybe, though of course in 2022, if not sooner, there will be an election that might change things dramatically.

How long does a narrow referendum vote have validity? Clearly there is an expiry date, no one is pointing to the 1975 vote. Is it 2022, sooner or later? Some would argue of course that demographically it has already expired.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 16:56
Of course the EU won't change in the next three years!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 17:00
So we're told.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 17:33
I would like to see a pyschological evaluation of Mogg and his ilk, they appear to be borderline psychotic, Brexit at any cost to the economy, The Union, Irish border, anything and everything - things which conservatives are supposed to care about


Could this eventually be the long dormant awakening of mad cow disease in humans?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/02/2018 17:38 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 20:08
Quote:
woodpecker
I would like to see a pyschological evaluation of Mogg and his ilk, they appear to be borderline psychotic, Brexit at any cost to the economy, The Union, Irish border, anything and everything - things which conservatives are supposed to care about

Could this eventually be the long dormant awakening of mad cow disease in humans?

The Tory who force fed his daughter a dodgy burger on TV to "prove" it was safe was John Selwyn Gummer. One must presume he even-handedly force fed his son at the same time as well. His son is now a Conservative cabinet minister, so there's every possibility he's infected the rest of them. It would explain a lot.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 21:05
Quote:
woodpecker
I would like to see a pyschological evaluation of Mogg and his ilk, they appear to be borderline psychotic, Brexit at any cost to the economy, The Union, Irish border, anything and everything - things which conservatives are supposed to care about

Could this eventually be the long dormant awakening of mad cow disease in humans?

Fact is MANY politicians are psychopathic, there are many articles on this, but to give you a flavour the table below is from Scientific American. Its based on American politics but somehow I very much doubt there is a difference between theirs and ours.


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/blogs/assets/mind-guest-blog/File/samwdutt1_D.jpg

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 21:43
Would you mind summarising the above post an also giving details of who accummulated the 'facts' - Scientific American often has oddballs contributing? Thanks.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 22:01
The point is Annie if you google it there are a significant number of articles saying the same thing. In reality it is hardly surprising, for example, if politicians were highly empathic they would find sending young men to war extremely difficult. I think this also applies to top CEO's who may have to make major workforce redundancies for the sake of the company but at workers expense.

If you want a more cerebral article you may well want to look elsewhere.

I chose the SA link as it was visual and had at least a modicum of credibility. I have no idea if it is empirical but there are some interesting comparisons!

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
21 February, 2018 23:22
Less government is more.

Lets hope the Italian election goes the right way!!!!

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 10:32
So The Donald is more of a psychopath than Hitler?
Ted Cruz > Napoleon
HRC > Nero

That's comforting.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 12:39
Good to see Jesus in there. Some top quality first hand interviewing obviously took place.

I'd say that story in about 50% right. The 50% right being the 'American' bit, the 50% wrong being the 'Scientific' bit.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 13:18
I'm impressed with Donald's solution to the school shooting problem, give the teachers guns, well I guess I wouldnt start from here

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 13:29
Quote:
woodpecker
I'm impressed with Donald's solution to the school shooting problem, give the teachers guns, well I guess I wouldnt start from here

If that's not psycopathic behaviour what is? Completely disconnected from the problem!

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 13:36
Can't make anything from that so-called research, how the hell did they scientifically test Henry 8th?

But just read Jon Ronson's book, The Psychopath Test

I just really hope the latest from Trump that he is considering arming teachers to avoid further Florida type incidents is fake news - the future is just too terrible to think about if not

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 13:56
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
woodpecker
I'm impressed with Donald's solution to the school shooting problem, give the teachers guns, well I guess I wouldnt start from here

If that's not psycopathic behaviour what is? Completely disconnected from the problem!

The problem is actually with the NRA which constantly stops American presidents from taking the appropriate action.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 14:16
Quote:
OutsideBath

The problem is actually with the NRA which constantly stops American presidents from taking the appropriate action.

Or the American President for accepting the NRA $30 million preventing him from having any further sensible debate about the issue due to a massive conflict of interest?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 14:33
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath

The problem is actually with the NRA which constantly stops American presidents from taking the appropriate action.

Or the American President for accepting the NRA $30 million preventing him from having any further sensible debate about the issue due to a massive conflict of interest?

Absolutely correct, but Obama who I felt always wanted to do the right thing wasn't able to do much either



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 16:19
Quote:
gaz59
I just really hope the latest from Trump that he is considering arming teachers to avoid further Florida type incidents is fake news - the future is just too terrible to think about if not
At ease then - he has already declared it to be fake news - he doesn't want to arm teachers; just SOME teachers. It's different you see; and the fake news media should stop going around using Donald's own words against him! [mobile.twitter.com]



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/02/2018 16:22 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 16:29
Of course he won't force teachers to carry guns, he'll just be able to blame them for the next massacre because they weren't.

Cue a further rolling back of gun laws:
1. Country wide legalization of 'concealed carry'.
2. Including schools, university campuses etc.

How concealed carry pans out if you're black: [edition.cnn.com]
I dunno, maybe he was a teacher.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 17:08
There arent many developed countries in the world where the answer to a question would be to give teachers guns.

heres jim jeffries on gun control (dont watch if you dont like extreme swearing)

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
22 February, 2018 19:06
For a man with an election slogan of "Yes We Can" dear old Obama did not actually do very much at all in his 8 years........but I guess that's how the Americans like it and have created a political system appropriately

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 11:17
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
For a man with an election slogan of "Yes We Can" dear old Obama did not actually do very much at all in his 8 years........but I guess that's how the Americans like it and have created a political system appropriately

Trump has found plenty of Obama things to undo, even the odd mild bit of gun legislation. Quite a lot a Congress have thwarted him on too.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 12:17
Obamacare was quite an extraordinary achievement given the rabid opposition from Republican party, Congress, Senate and, bizarrely, lots of the public who actually relied on it for healthcare.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 13:38
The current debate about the customs union and the need to leave appears to stem from the wish to sign our own trade deals.

As of now we have trade deals with the EU 27 and 30+ others through EU membership. What is the key driver for being able to sign our own deals?

I have never heard business big or small agitating to get specific trade deals with certain countries. What things do the Brexiteers want to sell to which countries?

I appreciate that developing countries grow faster (surprise surprise), but doing trade deals with developing countries is difficult for obvious reasons and they tend to buy less of the products that a developed economy produces.

I also understand that for the Brexiteers in priniciple they don't like not being in control of negotiating trade deals (or anything).

However, without specific analysis of which British products or services are currently being constrained from being traded with which countries, I really don't see why this is a red line.

Prior to the referendum being called I don't even remember the fact we can't sign our own trade deals being a key point of discussion. My assessment is that it grew as a defence by leavers against remainers stating the risks to European trade of leaving.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 17:12
Its clear that Obama looked at the North/South Korean situation and thought there is only one winner out of this.......and its not my personal reputation.......so I'll give the can a mighty kick down the road.

Gun control, lots of hand wringing, genuine heartfelt pain but nothing.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 17:18
As ever, the key driver is hatred of the EU.

In the Brexiteer's mind, a free trade deal is one that's free of the EU, never mind that it doesn't exist yet, probably won't for years and is likely to be inferior to what we already have.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 17:28
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Its clear that Obama looked at the North/South Korean situation and thought there is only one winner out of this.......and its not my personal reputation.......so I'll give the can a mighty kick down the road.
Gun control, lots of hand wringing, genuine heartfelt pain but nothing.

Maybe he just didn't want to kill millions of Koreans.

My own take on the Korean situation: The only way of getting rid of Kim is from within, military means won't work. Sanctions might eventually cause this, but the Chinese effectively control that. Even if he developed a viable ICBM with warhead, I can't see him ever using it. So keep supporting the South but leave the North to the Chinese to sort out. Trump is effectively doing the same as Obama but with bucket-loads of bluster thrown in.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 17:29
Quote:
woodpecker
The current debate about the customs union and the need to leave appears to stem from the wish to sign our own trade deals.

Staying in the Customs Union is asymmetric, external tariffs from trade deals are no longer even made with reference to our economy. Likewise it doesn't deliver frictionless trade with the EU - the Single Market is part of that.

Whether Labours 'a' Custom Union is even available is debatable (it would have to be a tripartite agreement).

The Customs Union is a trap - look at Turkey. Staying in the Single Market would be preferable though I suspect that is part of the calculation: Emphasise the prospect of violence in Ireland to keep us in the customs union - at which point we'll wish we were in the Single Market.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 17:39
Yup, it's like the Remainers have given up on the single Market and the Customs Union is the only thing they think they can salvage.

Of course there are Customs Unions and Customs Unions. There's the one we currently have or there's the Turkey one, which looks nothing like 'frictionless' trade. I suspect if we were to get a 'special' one out of the EU at all, it would look less like the former and more like the latter and thus be of dubious value.

For me it's Single Market or nothing.
Nothing is looking more and more like full-on Moggmentum. No thanks!

And if it's Single Market, you might as well not leave at all.

So let's not.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 17:41
external tariffs from trade deals are no longer even made with reference to our economy

You mean that tariffs the EU applies are not specific to the UKs needs, but for the 28?

What does this mean?

The Customs Union is a trap - look at Turkey.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 18:08
....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/02/2018 18:11 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 18:09
The Turkish economy grew by 11.1% in the last 12 months.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 18:49
North Koreans and South Koreans are now talking.......this did not happen in Obama's eight years.

Why if Obama had paid any attention to the Korean issue would millions of Koreans have died......I really am afraid I've missed a few steps on that critical path.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 18:53
The Turkish economy grew by 11% in the past three months

It grew by an average of 6.5% in the past 12 months as a rebound following the decline after the Coup

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 19:09
Quote:
woodpecker
external tariffs from trade deals are no longer even made with reference to our economy
You mean that tariffs the EU applies are not specific to the UKs needs, but for the 28?

Well rather. It applies tariffs specifically for the benefit of the Single Market in which we participated. But if we are no longer in the single market, our trade policy is decided for the benefit of the single market. Having a large proportion of that economy counts for something (look at France's influence on external tariffs). Having none counts for nothing. Unless you are Labour...

Quote:
woodpecker
The Customs Union is a trap - look at Turkey.

Because your economy will invariably develop in line with the restrictions of the customs union. It's the most cost-effective. Your trade inevitably becomes what is best for the Single Market and your trade policy becomes advocacy for the Single Market.

Hence, why the Single Market would be preferable (and, in my opinion, neither).

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
23 February, 2018 20:47
Quote:
jayeatman
Even if he developed a viable ICBM with warhead, I can't see him ever using it. So keep supporting the South but leave the North to the Chinese to sort out. Trump is effectively doing the same as Obama but with bucket-loads of bluster thrown in.

Such breezy confidence is a little less convincing when you're within range. smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
24 February, 2018 18:33
I’m not getting the “a” vs “the” customs union.

A customs union is a joint external customs border with a common external tariff policy.

If country A has a customs union with country B, and country B has a customs union with country C, then country A has a customs union with country C.

France or Germany can’t be part of a customs union with each other and a customs union with us, without those customs unions being the same. That’s basic logic.

The only distinctions could be what Product/service categories a customs union covers. But then you’re fully into cherry picking territory.

The whole thing, from Labour and Tories, is a fantasy.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
24 February, 2018 19:53
Quote:
TCM2007
I’m not getting the “a” vs “the” customs union.
A customs union is a joint external customs border with a common external tariff policy.

If country A has a customs union with country B, and country B has a customs union with country C, then country A has a customs union with country C.

France or Germany can’t be part of a customs union with each other and a customs union with us, without those customs unions being the same. That’s basic logic.

The only distinctions could be what Product/service categories a customs union covers. But then you’re fully into cherry picking territory.

The whole thing, from Labour and Tories, is a fantasy.

Negotiation - the art of splitting hairs to save face.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
25 February, 2018 01:23
Quote:
TCM2007

The only distinctions could be what Product/service categories a customs union covers. But then you’re fully into cherry picking territory.

The whole thing, from Labour and Tories, is a fantasy.

That is indeed the critical distrinction. The Customs Union with Turkey does not cover everything the Single Market does.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
25 February, 2018 22:48
Single market is not the same as customs union. Turkey is not in the single market but is in the customs union. Norway is in the single market but not in the customs union.

We apparently want to be in neither while having the advantages of both, and wonder why the EU would have a problem with that..l



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
26 February, 2018 08:53
Quote:
TCM2007
We apparently want to be in neither while having the advantages of both, and wonder why the EU would have a problem with that..l

I am not sure that is thr government position. They certainly wish to leave both and, like any creditable trade deal, there has to be benefits for both sides. Obviously whether you believe we can get a good deal or not, depends on your position regarding the omnipotence and infallibility of the EU.

What is crazy is parliament potentially legislating for 'A' Customs Union we might not even be able to get.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 March, 2018 16:47
Whilst listening to an interview with Daniel Hannan today on R4 I discovered another one of the EU laws we won't have to follow:

Under EU law, seat belts must be used in all vehicles. Children over 1.35 m can use an adult seat belt. Those under 1.35 m must use equipment appropriate to their size and weight when travelling in cars or lorries. It is now against the law to use a rear-facing child seat on the front passenger seat – unless the airbag has been deactivated.


Add that to the working hours and the vacuum cleaners and its starting to make sense..

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 March, 2018 17:50
Quote:
woodpecker
Whilst listening to an interview with Daniel Hannan today on R4 I discovered another one of the EU laws we won't have to follow:

Under EU law, seat belts must be used in all vehicles. Children over 1.35 m can use an adult seat belt. Those under 1.35 m must use equipment appropriate to their size and weight when travelling in cars or lorries. It is now against the law to use a rear-facing child seat on the front passenger seat – unless the airbag has been deactivated.


Add that to the working hours and the vacuum cleaners and its starting to make sense..

Excellent news. Lots more organs for transplantation.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 March, 2018 20:12
Looking forward to a return to roaming charges when I visit the continent again. Such progress, can’t wait.

J

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 07:15
The seatbelt law will be incorporated into British law, but the roaming is a function of our membership of the digital single market so is far less clear.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 07:26
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Looking forward to a return to roaming charges when I visit the continent again. Such progress, can’t wait.

Oh no... Not roaming charges! Thousands of years of civilisation and progress to get this point and now we'll be right back to dark ages.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 08:10
Quote:
Substitute

Oh no... Not roaming charges! Thousands of years of civilisation and progress to get this point and now we'll be right back to dark ages.

You're talking about Brexit are you?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 11:12
I think its been made clear that we're going FORWARD to a post apocalyptic dystopia, not backwards.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 12:08
Quote:
DanWiley
I think its been made clear that we're going FORWARD to a post apocalyptic dystopia, not backwards.

OK. If you say so...

But at least we won't have to worry about roaming charges after the apocalypse.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 17:36
I read an article today quoting from Tusk (I think) saying that thew EU's preferred solution is for the UK to remain in the CU and SM. Given that's still an option and you can notionally leave the EU and remain in those entities surely we should investigate the idea?

I think in some real sense we would not longer be in a political union with the EU, and I still think that would be a shame, but we would be electing their officials, we wouldn't be influencing their policies, we wouldn't be receiving subsidies and we wouldn't be subsidising them. It would be a relatively foolish position to be in, it might be short lived, but not quite a foolish as actually leaving.

Now, I'm not calling for another referendum, but you have to ask the question, hypothetically if there were a question put to the populace of leave the EU but stay in the CM and SM, would people go for it? Leave had a slender majority, I don't think the same question would get the same result, I really doubt what appears to be a weaker one would. That being the case, I think it should be an option that is explored.

I suppose our bespoke deal will actually amount to the same thing, but with a veneer of added leavingness that makes the politicians look at bit better and the placate the average distracted brexiteer a bit.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 18:19
Michael O'Leary threatens to ground planes post Brexit, now that has to be a positive outcome for Brexit.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 18:21
TIMES COMMENT


Since it’s now clear that Britain will be diminished by leaving the EU, the electorate should be allowed to choose between all options

Power was at the heart of the argument about Brexit. That was what Brexiteers promised. Voters would take back control. Freed from the tiresome restrictions imposed by an interfering continent, a buccaneering Britain would be independent, rich and free.

There were three pillars to this promise. The first was that the EU would give us a uniquely advantageous deal, since they needed to trade with us more than we needed them. The second was that the rest of the world would be eager to sign great new deals with us. The third was that we would become a stronger presence on the world stage; as Boris Johnson put it, in the hours after the vote, Britain now had a huge opportunity to find its voice in the world again.

There was always a curious, naive sentimentality about these beliefs. They coupled a demonisation of the EU with a simultaneous faith that in the future both they and other countries would obligingly offer us just what we wanted.

Now those Brexiteer fantasies about our glorious future are dissolving in the harsh light of economics and realpolitik. The cold truth of Britain’s weakness is being exposed as the power players we depend on, from the EU to the US to the foreign companies investing here, are making it brutally clear that they will always act in their own interests and that we no longer have sufficient weight to stand up for ours.

The EU has flatly rejected Theresa May’s and Philip Hammond’s latest tortuously crafted demands for a comprehensive trade deal. Britain cannot retain most of the advantages of membership without the obligations. As long as it sticks to its red lines, the new relationship will be limited, with “frictions” and “negative economic consequences”.

Just as the fiction that our trade with the EU would be largely undamaged was being demolished, so too was the fantasy that a new relationship with other powerful economies might replace and surpass the trade we are going to lose. Here it is the US that has been the great hope of Brexiteers. May’s government has been cravenly sticking close to Trump and his casual claim last year that he’d give us a great deal because, as cabinet ministers have privately confessed, “he’s all we’ve got left”.

Just why any intelligent politician would have taken a passing Trump assertion any more seriously than he takes his marriage vows is a mystery, and this week that hope too has blown up. It’s not only Trump’s gleeful plans to ignite a trade war that have exposed this president’s lack of concern for any other country’s needs, it’s the opening negotiations between Britain and America over airline rights after Brexit that should chill us.

Britain had hoped to replicate the rights its airlines currently have as an EU member. Instead the US has offered a substantially worse deal, one that would hit both BA and Virgin, with one negotiator saying, “You can’t just scratch out ‘EU’ and put in ‘UK’”.

This hardball treatment from a close ally is ominous. Britain will have to renegotiate more than 700 trading agreements with other countries post-Brexit, and it wants these to continue as before. That is sheer naivety.

Far from gaining power from Brexit we are losing it, fast. Huge investors in Britain, including Vauxhall, Airbus and Unilever, warn they plan to cut jobs here if they’re going to lose easy access to the huge markets of the EU. The government’s own predictions see the economic hit from different Brexits as cutting growth by between 2 and 8 per cent. John Major, Tony Blair, former ambassadors and an ex-head of MI6 are all warning desperately that our international influence will shrink fast if we continue down this lonely path of wilfully diminishing our economic and political power. As Brexit becomes reality, this can only get worse.

This spiral of weakness is not what voters chose. It is so far from what they were promised that it would be a deception to take us out of Europe on this agenda. But if parliament were to reject such a damaging outcome, many Brexiteers would feel betrayed.

There is a better solution. There is now a powerful case for holding a second referendum once the EU deal is agreed, and before we leave next March, not as a re-run, but to allow voters to decide whether the Brexit on offer is what they want.

The fatal flaw of the first referendum was that the simplicity of the binary question, in or out, offered no clarity on what Brexit should mean in practice. A second vote would instead offer three clear, practical options, with the implications of each spelt out. It would be impeccably democratic because these three would span the political waterfront: the government’s deal, no deal, or remaining in the EU. It would do so by holding votes in two rounds, a week apart, in the style of the French presidential election. In the first week one option would be knocked out. In the second the electorate would decide between the remaining two.

The great advantage of this double vote is that it would concentrate the mind on real alternatives, not lies or dreams. If Remain lost in week one, Europhiles would have to stop grumbling and decide their own preference for May’s deal or the WTO. If no-deal were knocked out, the hardest Brexiteers would equally have to accept that the country didn’t want this degree of economic shock. Whatever the result, nobody would be able to argue any longer that the nation didn’t know what it was doing over Brexit.

The world is bleaker and more menacing than it looked 21 months ago. With a decision as momentous as this, whether Britain opts for power or the loss of it, its voters should be allowed the final choice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2018 18:43 by woodpecker.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 19:54
Quote:
woodpecker
TIMES COMMENT
Since it’s now clear that Britain will be diminished by leaving the EU...

Which is precisely the problem. 52% of voters voted for change.

Our political classes, the EU political classes and large parts of the media, Business etc. (probably the well-off) see it as an exercise in managing decline.

Of course, for a majority of people, the last 10 years have been a decline and the media and corporate interests and the EU are precisely the ones they blame.

The more the Tories fail to deliver a change (and just remove bits), the more our media will opine our vote to leave but the more people will disengage from Politics.

Of course, our media has been especially supine over Brexit.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 20:08
Quote:
DanWiley
I read an article today quoting from Tusk (I think) saying that thew EU's preferred solution is for the UK to remain in the CU and SM.

Did you need to read an article to get that that would be the EU's preferred position:
Still free movement (which they know is widely unpopular), still jurisdiction and limited ability to diverge and compete. No-brainer for them.

What is quite shocking (and again legitimised by our press' uncertainty) is that they are clearly trying to influence parliament to enact these things.

If it was Russia we'd call that kind of interference out...

(Note: If parliament rejected those amendments then conversely our position is strengthened - as they won't be able to offer us a worse deal to bounce us to stay in. They might just be a bit more pragmatic, and honest).

Quote:
DanWiley
Given that's still an option and you can notionally leave the EU and remain in those entities surely we should investigate the idea?

No, because it's not in our national interests to negotiate from a fixed position of limited difference. We might end up there with this parliament but it should be our negotiations aim.

Nevertheless, whoever implements is finished for a generation.

Quote:
DanWiley
Now, I'm not calling for another referendum, but you have to ask the question, hypothetically if there were a question put to the populace of leave the EU but stay in the CM and SM, would people go for it?

I think the result would be equally surprising for the political and media classes.

Corbyn floats A Custom Union and his poll ratings go down, his Brexit approval ratings go down etc. etc.

People voted for ambition and change. They didn't vote for political, media and corporate interest - they probably despise most of them.

(Of course, many engaged voters do vote for those reasons, which is why turnout matters - for the Brexit referendum).

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 21:12
There's a very interesting court case going on at the ECJ at the moment about whether a current EU citizen's rights can be taken away by a process such as Brexit. The EU rules specify that EU citizenship is additional to national citizenship. We may find that those of us who are currently EU citizens may remain so after Brexit unless we individually and specifically choose to renounce it.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 21:41
Quote:
Woodpecker
Since it’s now clear that Britain will be diminished by leaving the EU

No it’s not clear, it’s an opinion as is the majority of the remaining 100 lines. Be interesting to know who’s polarised opinion it is rather than just referencing it as TIMES COMMENT.

Most of the people I know who voted to leave the EU accepted that things would get worse before they would get better and that the change would initially cost our economy.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 March, 2018 21:57
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
Woodpecker
Since it’s now clear that Britain will be diminished by leaving the EU

No it’s not clear, it’s an opinion as is the majority of the remaining 100 lines. Be interesting to know who’s polarised opinion it is rather than just referencing it as TIMES COMMENT.

Most of the people I know who voted to leave the EU accepted that things would get worse before they would get better and that the change would initially cost our economy.

It’s JENNI RUSSEL

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 09:09
"No, because it's not in our national interests to negotiate from a fixed position of limited difference. "

leaving isn't in our national interest and we didn't vote for what we look like getting. So why are we doing it?

"I think the result would be equally surprising for the political and media classes. "

Great, let's do it then, this is too important to base on a single snapshot of opinion anyway.


"No it’s not clear, "

I think it is, among other things the article cites some fairly clear evidence of of companies saying "As things look now, we'll be force to scale down here." What's not clear is what the actual benefits are or when and how it might actually get better.

So, how are things going to get better?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 09:13
Quote:
DanWiley
"No, because it's not in our national interests to negotiate from a fixed position of limited difference. "
leaving isn't in our national interest and we didn't vote for what we look like getting. So why are we doing it?

"I think the result would be equally surprising for the political and media classes. "

Great, let's do it then, this is too important to base on a single snapshot of opinion anyway.


"No it’s not clear, "

I think it is, among other things the article cites some fairly clear evidence of of companies saying "As things look now, we'll be force to scale down here." What's not clear is what the actual benefits are or when and how it might actually get better.

So, how are things going to get better?

You are making the same mistake that Cameron and his fellow liberals made by focussing entirely on the financial result of Brexit. I get the impression that immigration was the main factor for the leave vote and are we sure this has changed?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 09:21
Quote:
OutsideBath
You are making the same mistake that Cameron and his fellow liberals made by focussing entirely on the financial result of Brexit. I get the impression that immigration was the main factor for the leave vote and are we sure this has changed?

I think immigration was only the main factor in so far as they've feel they've been screwed economically anyway, uncontrolled immigration is a totem of that and, whatever they vote for, politicians won't act in their interest.

And they're right.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 09:30
Quote:
DanWiley

leaving isn't in our national interest and we didn't vote for what we look like getting. So why are we doing it?

It's not in your interest.

It is obviously in the countries national interest to p**s off bleeding heart liberals, such as yourself. And it's doing a bl**dy good job of it.

Quote:
DanWiley
Great, let's do it then, this is too important to base on a single snapshot of opinion anyway.

Ah, the liberal. Always sh*tty for (political responsibility and) democracy.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 09:46
No, its not in the national interest, that's becoming increasingly clear.

I don't know why you think calling me (or anyone) a liberal is an insult. Did you miss out the capital L by the way? I'm never sure if that's important to the insult. The rest of what you've written is just foul mouthed and really not worth the time of day, have you run out of ideas?

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 11:00
Why is it that devout Brexiteers when seriously challenged always resort to illiterate insults about liberals.

Presumably in their perfect Universe, the United Kingdom(orwhatsleftofit) would be towed out in the middle of the Atlantic far far far away from anything European! We won't have to compromise, negotiate or pay for being members of the human race! Cancel all that rubbish about human rights, environmental controls, sharing responsibiity for the defence of Europe etc etc. Hang on a minute isn't that what Trump promotes?(Sm142)(Sm161)

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 11:09
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Why is it that devout Brexiteers when seriously challenged always resort to illiterate insults about liberals.

Stop being so serious. Reasonable discussion with certain people stopped ages ago. I suppose the correct response to Dan's 50th cry for a second referendum would be to ignore it. But that's no fun...

It would be nice if we discuss the obviously valid points around Brexit (you know, like meddling with parliamentary votes), instead of (equally insulting) hyperbole such as this:

Quote:
annie blackthorn
Presumably in their perfect Universe, the United Kingdom(orwhatsleftofit) would be towed out in the middle of the Atlantic far far far away from anything European! We won't have to compromise, negotiate or pay for being members of the human race! Cancel all that rubbish about human rights, environmental controls, sharing responsibiity for the defence of Europe etc etc. Hang on a minute isn't that what Trump promotes?(Sm142)(Sm161)

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 11:34
Or the Tories blocking publication of who provided half a million to the DUP for the brexit campaign?

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 12:00
Quote:
Annie Blackthorn
Why is it that devout Brexiteers when seriously challenged always resort to illiterate insults about liberals.

Why is is that Annie Blackthorn uses sweeping generalizations to describe the views and behaviours of 17 million different people ?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 13:05
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
Annie Blackthorn
Why is it that devout Brexiteers when seriously challenged always resort to illiterate insults about liberals.

Why is is that Annie Blackthorn uses sweeping generalizations to describe the views and behaviours of 17 million different people ?

I doubt you could call many of those 17m 'devout'.
So if we restrict ourselves to the 'devout' minority for whom Brexit is akin to a religion, Annie is right, they've run out of reasoned arguments, leaving them only with their 'faith' so resort to insults. And yes, they are quite often illiterate. And yes, they somehow think 'Liberal' is an insult.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 14:03
I've not really suggested a second referendum ever, I think. Where you said "I'd be surprised by the result" I did suggest doing it again as I really don't think I would be, particularly if the question was "do you want this hard brexit". But actually I don't think referendum are a good idea. For exactly the reasons we are seeing:

1) As Malco called for: you get a heart response, not a head one. I can't see why anyone would want decision made on this basis but regardless it leads to:
2) This makes them massively venerable to PR and, essentially, advertising.
3) They are far, far too temporal.
4) A close result far from empowering government puts it over a barrel.
5) In this case, about 45 million people being totally ignored.
6) Also a large part of 15 million people being misrepresented.
7) A question simple enough to be voted on isn't sufficiently detailed to capture the situation.

You could go on for a while but you only really need consider how referendums have been abused in the past.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 14:43
The more
Quote:
Jayeatman
I doubt you could call many of those 17m 'devout'.
So if we restrict ourselves to the 'devout' minority for whom Brexit is akin to a religion, Annie is right, they've run out of reasoned arguments, leaving them only with their 'faith' so resort to insults. And yes, they are quite often illiterate. And yes, they somehow think 'Liberal' is an insult.

So imagine there exists a group of people that all share the same views and continue to imagine that they are unable to articulate the reasons for having those views .... and then take offence at the imaginary views of the imaginary few (or many).(Sm56)

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 16:57
Quote:
Beergoggles
The more
Quote:
Jayeatman
I doubt you could call many of those 17m 'devout'.
So if we restrict ourselves to the 'devout' minority for whom Brexit is akin to a religion, Annie is right, they've run out of reasoned arguments, leaving them only with their 'faith' so resort to insults. And yes, they are quite often illiterate. And yes, they somehow think 'Liberal' is an insult.

So imagine there exists a group of people that all share the same views and continue to imagine that they are unable to articulate the reasons for having those views .... and then take offence at the imaginary views of the imaginary few (or many).(Sm56)

Nope, that's beyond me.
Are YOU imaginary BG? Or Substitute? Or Malco? OK, OK, I know Malco is legendary.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 18:48
Quote:
jayeatman
So if we restrict ourselves to the 'devout' minority for whom Brexit is akin to a religion, Annie is right, they've run out of reasoned arguments,

No, they haven't. You just choose not to engage any of them or revert to economic dogma. The remain argument seems to only consist of it: 'it will make you poorer' or 'the people have to change their mind'.

Quote:
jayeatman
leaving them only with their 'faith' so resort to insults.

Like Annie, or this?

Quote:
jayeatman
And yes, they are quite often illiterate.

Are you perfectly literate?

Quote:
jayeatman
And yes, they somehow think 'Liberal' is an insult.

It's an insult in the same way you think Conservatism is an insult. I seem to recall you describing the DUP in rather insulting terms, for having a different viewpoint to you.

Which is strange, because a fundamental of Liberalism is that people can have different viewpoints, no?

---

Now back to the point - the EU has inserted phrasing in the document to encourage parliament to vote in a certain direction. It's not exactly respecting the independence of an EU member state.

Would we tolerate it if it had been Russia?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 21:07
"No, they haven't. You just choose not to engage any of them "

then what are we doing now? I don't know that many that I would describe as as devout Brexiteers. I do know one or two that have changed their mind, one Airbus employee in particular springs to mind.

I don't think I'm insulting anyone in calling them a conservative (big or little c), I -probably- am saying I disagree with you. The DUP are something else, I find their headline policies fairly backwards, so if you say you subscribe to them then I guess I am insulting you.

Be explicit about what you are accusing the EU of or there's no conversation.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 22:20
The EU is a supra-national institution the purpose of which is to steer a course towards a USE. This is the unresolved tension at the heart of the project. Does it integrate further, cede more authority to member nations or do nothing?

The EU is unable to solve the youth unemployment crises in Greece, Italy or Spain. A generation is being lost.

The EU is unable to deal effectively with the migration crisis that has had a massive impact on Italy, Greece and other countries on its Eastern border. It has disrupted the political order in Germany, France, Austria and Italy.

The EU is unhappy with sovereign nation members trying to obtain competitive advantage e.g. Irish Corporation tax at 12.5% compared to 20%+ in other states. It wishes to harmonise tax arrangements across the zone in the future.

Countries that have adopted the Euro are subject to the ECB decisions but do not have their debts underwritten by the ECB, rather they are required to take measures to repay their debts that punish their citizens. The Greek debt crisis refers.

The EU has failed and continues to fail to account in a satisfactory way for the money it spends. The debate for/against the CAP.

The EU moves its' parliament regularly between Brussels and Strasbourg wasting millions of euros in the process.

The EU hailed the abolition of roaming charges as a sign of how the EU can be relevant and improve the lives of its citizens - not such a big deal imho given the scale of other problems.

I am not a fan of the EU but believe we should be good European neighbours and cooperate in ways that benefit both parties and others e.g. defence, security, environment etc.

Brexit is an existential threat to the EU Commission [not Europe the continent] and the EU will fight to be perceived as relevant for members and protect the status quo.

Brexit is now broadly argued by remainers as avoiding "risk" and by leavers as creating "opportunity". We each have our own views about the merits of this...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 March, 2018 23:57
Quote:
DanWiley
I don't think I'm insulting anyone in calling them a conservative (big or little c), I -probably- am saying I disagree with you. The DUP are something else, I find their headline policies fairly backwards, so if you say you subscribe to them then I guess I am insulting you.

The DUP are perfectly entitled to their views and they're perfectly defensible. It is often the 'Liberal/liberal' position that they are not defensible and they are not entitled to that view. Calling it 'backwards' is an insult, no?

For example: They're often ridiculed for their abortion policy, yet it is eminently reasonable (and possible) to argue that the unborn foetus has a right to life and that the woman has responsibilities to bear. Obviously the other side of the argument is equally reasonable to hold.

There are plenty of insults thrown around - it's the moral purity that Liberalism claims (and in an above poster's case, then proceeds to instantly contradict) that's barmy.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 00:02
Interesting article in the Irish Times. The biggest loser economically if a border were imposed between the UK and the island of Ireland: the Republic of Ireland.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 01:28
Quote:
Substitute
Interesting article in the Irish Times. The biggest loser economically if a border were imposed between the UK and the island of Ireland: the Republic of Ireland.

Au contraire, mon copain. It's the UK.

[www.google.com]

Ireland will lose a lot but it has the advantage of being cushioned by EU membership.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 09:15
"The DUP are perfectly entitled to their views and they're perfectly defensible. It is often the 'Liberal/liberal' position that they are not defensible and they are not entitled to that view. Calling it 'backwards' is an insult, no? "

Correct, they are entitled to their views and where I disagree with them I will object and argue against them. There's no contradiction there, many have said "you are entitled to that view, but I think it is wrong and will oppose it." If that's not liberal, then I'm not liberal. Fair enough, it's just a name and not one I often use to describe myself.

In my opinion their views are backwards and yes saying that someone who holds them is backwards is insulating. Liberals are allowed to insult people, or again I'm not a liberal. I can't see a way of disagreeing with someone with saying they are wrong and opening the door to insulting them. I don't believe being liberal means agreeing with everyone, that's clearly not the case. I am happy to describe why I think they're backwards, but that would be to go right off topic.

So, either in not a liberal or I am and it doesn't mean what you think it does. Which it is is rather a dull semantic point that is fairly unique to your mind. I'm not fussed either way, I've no problem with you calling me it and continue to be baffled as to why you see it as an insult.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 09:23
It's not that the DUP are conservative, it's that they are authoritarian. If Arlene Foster doesn't think abortion is right then she shouldn't have one, but instead her party bans abortion for anyone. Similarly for same-sex marriage. There's no attempt to respect any other point of view.

There was much fuss in the general election about Tim Farron's views on homosexuality. He, personally, thinks it's wrong and therefore his views are conservative. But his voting record shows he has consistently voted to improve LGBT rights. Conservative views, liberal actions. The DUP, though, are authoritarian and should therefore be challenged and opposed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 15:19
Quote:
DanWiley
...as to why you see it as an insult.

I think you've got your wires crossed: I don't see it as an insult.

I suspect many people would happily be called liberal. Just because I have an issue with some of modern liberalism doesn't mean I think it is insult. Nor explain why Annie felt it was insult?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 15:38
"I think you've got your wires crossed: I don't see it as an insult. "

Really? You don't think saying someone is shitty for democracy is an insult?

"Ah, the liberal. Always sh*tty for (political responsibility and) democracy."

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 15:55
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
It's not that the DUP are conservative, it's that they are authoritarian. If Arlene Foster doesn't think abortion is right then she shouldn't have one, but instead her party bans abortion for anyone. Similarly for same-sex marriage. There's no attempt to respect any other point of view.

They are not authoritarian. They were democratically elected (just like Sinn Fein, who also aren't pro-abortion). They have made no attempt to undermine democracy and grab power.

If they are banning abortion for everyone, in reverse why should an unborn child be excluded from a right for life.

Nevertheless we do not exist as individuals. We exist as a society. Abortion and gay marriage require society to provide the facilities for them to occur. So, yes, society has a say. Civilisation cannot simply be "I should be allowed to do what I want".

Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
There was much fuss in the general election about Tim Farron's views on homosexuality. Conservative views, liberal actions. The DUP, though, are authoritarian and should therefore be challenged and opposed.

And yet he got forced out - the 'dark side' of Liberalism.

Presumably, those Lib Dems who forced him should be considered authoritarian. Tim Farron wasn't allowed to hold Conservative views. People acted in an illiberal way (Tim's opinions shouldn't be held, irrespective of how he acts) in the name of Liberalism. Hence, the contradiction.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 15:59
[quote DanWiley]"I think you've got your wires crossed: I don't see it as an insult. "

Really? You don't think saying someone is shitty for democracy is an insult?

That can be an insult, yes. Calling someone a liberal is not an insult. Unless they identify as a Conservative, I suppose...

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 16:44
You've got authoritarian muddled with a dictatorship.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 18:36
It's pretty clear from your comments you use liberal as a pejorative term, but even if you really want to argue that, you've just confirmed that you do think calling someone a liberal is an insult.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 19:08
Quote:
DanWiley
It's pretty clear from your comments you use liberal as a pejorative term, but even if you really want to argue that, you've just confirmed that you do think calling someone a liberal is an insult.

Being called a liberal isn't necessarily an insult, although it's almost certainly not being used to complement either. I'd just view it a statement of fact in your case and nothing more to be read into it.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 20:47
Nice try. But sub has clearly contradicted himself there.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 22:42
Quote:
DanWiley
It's pretty clear from your comments you use liberal as a pejorative term, but even if you really want to argue that, you've just confirmed that you do think calling someone a liberal is an insult.

No, calling someone "shitty for democracy" is an insult.

Just so you won't misinterpret what I am saying. Anti-democratic = insult. Calling someone who identifies as 'liberal' (just guessing) a liberal = not an insult.

Likewise if someone called me Conservative... Not an insulting comment. Called a Conservative a xenophobe, rascist = insulting.

But liberal does not mean anti-democratic, and Conservative does not mean xenophobe.

OutsideBath is right. It's a statement of fact. So why are you so offended?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 March, 2018 22:54
No, no, no. You clearly said liberal = shitty for democracy. Then you called people liberals in a pejorative manner and are now saying you didn't intend it as an insult.

It was a stupid thing to say, but you did. There's no two ways out of that.

And, once again, I'm not particularly offended. I'm just pointing out you can barely keep your own arguement in line.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 March, 2018 00:44
Quote:
DanWiley
No, no, no. You clearly said liberal = shitty for democracy. Then you called people liberals in a pejorative manner and are now saying you didn't intend it as an insult.
It was a stupid thing to say, but you did. There's no two ways out of that.

And, once again, I'm not particularly offended. I'm just pointing out you can barely keep your own argument in line.

If I had called you a liberal, without saying that liberals are shitty for democracy, would you have been offended. No.

If I had said Conservatives are shitty for democracy (they are too), would you have been so offended?

Liberal is not a pejorative term (Conservative either). Is your definition of liberal negative, or are you subsuming mine? And you accuse me of playing semantics.

But anyway: Sure, whatever you say... I voted Leave. By your books, I should institutionalised.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 March, 2018 01:00
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
You've got authoritarian muddled with a dictatorship.

No, I haven't. The DUP don't pretend their authority comes from anywhere except the popular vote. They stood on an anti-abortion platform, they didn't force it on any of their voters, beyond their votes. They don't prevent you disagreeing with them, as you obviously do. You have freedom of thought in our democracy and the right to disagree with authority.

May I suggest that what you object to is that a plurality of voters voted for them? (And, by extension, that such topics should not be subject to democratic vote?).


BTW, did you mean to reference Tim Farron as your example of Liberalism?

Quote:
Tim Farron
Liberalism has eaten itself – it isn’t very liberal any more

 
BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 March, 2018 12:06
Given that recent poles are showing a majority for remain and aslo a majorit saying the referendum result was "wrong", there would appear to be an overwhelming case for having a second referendum when we know what we're actually voting for.

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