rugbyunion
Latest News:

The COML Message Board

The place for discussion, debate and nonsense about Bath Rugby.

Join our new Facebook Group today!

New visitors please read the house rules before posting

Test your prognostications at our Prediction League


Current Page: 10 of 13
 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 07:48
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
BBandW
With loony creationists to one side and xenophobic public school twerps on the other, I think I'd stay on the fence as well.

What do you call the equivalent of Xenophobia when instead of irrationally disliking foreigners, you irrationally dislike non-foreigners?

Home-ophobia?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 08:33
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Woodpecker.
The point of a Prime Minister is that she is in charge of the whole country.
Just in case you have forgotten, because presumably you so-called 'won' the Referendum, there are an awful lot of us very uneasy indeed (16 million odd) about what is taking place, have to trust that she and her team will do the best possible deal for the whole country, not just for those that spout the mantra "take back control".

Get off her case! The last thing we need for UK credibility is to be made a further laughing stock by forcing her out and getting whichever self-seeking knife wielding bloke "wins". Get a grip!

er no, I didnt win the referendum and the sooner she stops listening to that pompous to$$er Mogg, the better..

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 09:29
Quote:
annie blackthorn

Get off her case! The last thing we need for UK credibility is to be made a further laughing stock by forcing her out and getting whichever self-seeking knife wielding bloke "wins". Get a grip!

Annie, the only people making the UK a "laughing stock" are the zombie prime minister and the circling vultures on both sides of the tory party just waiting for the kill

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 10:03
Don't make assumptions about posters allegiances! [:wor kid:]



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 13:33
"Dead woman standing still" as The Economist has her this week!



Stuart

Former ed.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 13:44
More than that I'd say she's being propped up by many who are looking at the alternatives and saying "**********************!" i think I'd include myself in there to an extent.

I'd say the message that came out of her office last week "no CU" has done her no favours. If she actually does come down one way or another, someone's going to string her up. Where as if we stay as we are and fast forward a year, we could well end up with brexit in name only, then she can move on and doesn't have to be the PM that fiddled whilst we burnt.

The Mogg-Gove-Johnson approach is a little to close to kill or cure for my comfort.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 16:46
Quote:
TCM2007
"Dead woman standing still" as The Economist has her this week!

Well what would you expect from such a trashy, neo-marxist, politico sensationalist rag, eh?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 16:58
Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
TCM2007
"Dead woman standing still" as The Economist has her this week!

Well what would you expect from such a trashy, neo-marxist, politico sensationalist rag, eh?

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems at the last election? Evidently they've got their finger on the pulse...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 17:02
"Well what would you expect from such a trashy, neo-marxist, politico sensationalist rag, eh?"

Something less accurate?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 17:43
Quote:
BBandW

With loony creationists to one side and xenophobic public school twerps on the other, I think I'd stay on the fence as well.

Isn't JR-M both?

She may be on the fence, but the country is in the frying pan.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 17:48
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
BBandW

With loony creationists to one side and xenophobic public school twerps on the other, I think I'd stay on the fence as well.

Isn't JR-M both?

She may be on the fence, but the country is in the frying pan.

Is it really?



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 20:51
There seem to be more reasons to see it as such than not. What do you think is going particularly well?

The state of our government?
Our trainwreck brexit negotiations?
The fact that, despite growth around the world, we seem to be seem to be still in the full swing of austerity?
The way businesses are moving away from us?
The idea that not only are the US drolling over making a killing from our treasured public services, we'll have to give them away for a song because we'll have no choice?
The idea that, the best we can hope for, is an embarrassing climb down with Europe leading to a substantial loss of influence?

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 21:26
Assume yours is a rhetorical question DanWiley as your questions are so ridiculously extreme and unbalanced ?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 21:29
Feel free to let us know what is going so well. You can say which of those things are untrue, and why, as well if you like.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 22:26
It will all be Ok in the end. Just wait and see.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 February, 2018 22:36
I can’t say whether they are true because they are your wholly subjective opinions. Some subjective comments in reply below ...

The state of our government? It is what it is, like the country i.e. divided but trying to find some consensus. What better options are available ?
Our trainwreck brexit negotiations? What did you expect at this stage ? Harmony with the EU and roses ?
The fact that, despite growth around the world, we seem to be seem to be still in the full swing of austerity? Austerity is a government policy not linked to Brexit but I get your point.
The way businesses are moving away from us? If you say so, any examples ?
The idea that not only are the US drolling over making a killing from our treasured public services, we'll have to give them away for a song because we'll have no choice? Says you, again.
The idea that, the best we can hope for, is an embarrassing climb down with Europe leading to a substantial loss of influence? If that’s the best you can hope for you must be very depressed.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 07:46
Governmentally I mean just what we're taking about, May is a dead women walking and yet massively preferable to Mogg, Gove, Johnson, Corbyn or whoever is in charge of the LDs.

Didn't expect the brexit negotiations to go well, after all we are the party in the weak position, but just because I was expecting them to be bad doesn't mean it's ok that they have gone badly and they are not only going badly, but we're looking pretty foolish.

We were taking about the state of the country, hence the comment on austerity, but I think one reason why we still feel like it's continuing is the government is distracted by brexit and the people I feel are expecting things to be bad because of brexit.

Depressed would be the wrong word, but yes, I am concerned and disappointed by the current state of the country. Given the rest of the world seems to be enjoying a period of growth, until yesterday maybe, is doubly worrying. So if people are seeing good things, let's hear them.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 09:01
Quote:
DanWiley
Given the rest of the world seems to be enjoying a period of growth, until yesterday maybe, is doubly worrying. So if people are seeing good things, let's hear them.

You realise we are growing, right? In the last year we may have been outpaced but if you look at a 5 year trend we're hardly struggling.

Unemployment is at record lows (though wages remain depressed, in part because of the availability of cheap labour).

Meanwhile in Germany, subject to vote, an actual far right party is about to become the official opposition. Austria is in coalition with a far right party.

Our economics and political situation are really not so awful.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 09:18
https://pbs-0.twimg.com/media/DVYsHoMWkAAMMLi?format=jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 11:18
"You realise we are growing, right? In the last year we may have been outpaced but if you look at a 5 year trend we're hardly struggling. "

There's a few thing in this:

- growing, but outpaced (by peers and others)
- growing, but it doesn't feel like it, there's no government policy that suggests we are.
- the trend of the last 5 years have been made irrelevant by our brexit vote.

Unemployment isn't bad, I'll give you that.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 11:22
But George Osborne said we would face economic meltdown after we chose to leave!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 11:32
You put too much faith in George Osbourn, I'm pretty sure I never did.

At the risk of people saying "you're just calling people who disagree with you stupid", anyone who thought the actual act of voting to leave would yield the full effect, or even a particularly meaningful one, one way or the other, really isn't very bright.

The date we leave may have some impact. Our position may change somewhat in the mean time. The effects, positive or negative, will accumulate for many years to come.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 11:55
But you believed Boris's Bus!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 11:59
Staying away from if/how bad it is, will be. My main fascination is how we are going to be able to get frictionless trade for goods and services with the EU and have no border in Ireland without being in the customs union and at the same time do our own trade deals.

I think Im in the same boat as the EU 27, I liked this quote from The Times:

“When Theresa May talks about Brexit,” says one senior EU diplomat, “we hear the captain of the Titanic talking about an iceberg that works for everyone.” That this official was from one of the countries most sympathetic to Britain’s position should give some clue as to EU governments’ appetite to do the hard work for us

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 12:16
Quote:
DanWiley
At the risk of people saying "you're just calling people who disagree with you stupid", anyone who thought the actual act of voting to leave would yield the full effect, or even a particularly meaningful one, one way or the other, really isn't very bright.

That's good, we can ignore the treasury reports then given they're not very bright.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 12:21
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
DanWiley
At the risk of people saying "you're just calling people who disagree with you stupid", anyone who thought the actual act of voting to leave would yield the full effect, or even a particularly meaningful one, one way or the other, really isn't very bright.

That's good, we can ignore the treasury reports then given they're not very bright.

Yes in this new modern era we can ignore anything which doesn't support our views

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 12:26
Quote:
woodpecker
Staying away from if/how bad it is, will be. My main fascination is how we are going to be able to get frictionless trade for goods and services with the EU and have no border in Ireland without being in the customs union and at the same time do our own trade deals.

This sounds good to me:

Quote:
Irish Times
The only solution to Ireland’s row with Britain over the post-Brexit border is to introduce technology to manage multinational trade while turning a blind eye to lower-level cross-frontier movement, former taoiseach Bertie Ahern has suggested.

It's only EU intransigence preventing that. Can someone give a credible example of where the EU has done any work for us, or even suggested compromise? It's time we stop taking 'EU diplomats' at face value and realise the EU has a role to play.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2018 12:26 by Substitute.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 12:30
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
DanWiley
At the risk of people saying "you're just calling people who disagree with you stupid", anyone who thought the actual act of voting to leave would yield the full effect, or even a particularly meaningful one, one way or the other, really isn't very bright.

That's good, we can ignore the treasury reports then given they're not very bright.

Yes in this new modern era we can ignore anything which doesn't support our views

Well, I was inclined to believe the treasury report given their stoic commitment to neutrality and ignoring their past performance as a guide for future success.

But now Dan says they're not very bright I can quite happily ignore them. Wonder if Dan feels a bit silly for listening to them in the first place?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 12:44
Yes the Bertie solution

1) As far as I know the technology solution is mainly hypothetical there isn't one yet

2) I heard Peter Bone saying that if the EU wants to apply controls at the Irish border, that's their problem, this is clearly nonsense, you cant have a CU that isn't policed and if you've got an open door on one border out of 27, its obvious what will happen.

Also, the best friend of the brexiteers the WTO states both Britain and the EU would be obliged to have sufficient controls at their borders on goods movements.

I think the dumbest thing about the whole brexit is the 'doing our own trade deals' bollox, firstly what problem are we trying to solve? For some reason Jacob Rees Mogg and Bill Cash want to sign some trade deals - why, what are they trying to sell? what's the problem, we have more trade deals now than we could sign in the next 30 years.

Business, small/medium/large is not asking for this, it's made up. The funniest example of this is how we will be able to trade with China, when Germany inside the evil empire does 5 times the level of trade with China than we do now.

If the Great British public dont want immigration - i get it, if they dont want bureaucrats making their laws, fair enough (even though I dont get it myself), but if they want us to do trade deals with countries not in the EU or the 35 or so others, then its none of their business.

Im hoping that soon some actual sense and reality starts to prevail instead of this nonsense weve had for the last 600 days!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 12:45
Quote:
DanWiley
- growing, but outpaced (by peers and others)

So what, if we are growing enough to satisfy our needs who cares what others are doing?



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:10
Quote:
woodpecker
Yes the Bertie solution
1) As far as I know the technology solution is mainly hypothetical there isn't one yet.

Norway/Sweden has pre-registration, electronic systems (on the Norwegian side, EU is paper) and numberpate recognition. Your chance of delay as a road passenger is minimal. Lorrys it can be up to a couple of hours . I am sure ardent remainers can find a billion small problems but it is not beyond the wit of man.

(BTW, Sweden has to do some of the legwork - it's not all Norway).

Quote:
woodpecker
Also, the best friend of the brexiteers the WTO states both Britain and the EU would be obliged to have sufficient controls at their borders on goods movements.

Unless the UK unilaterally offers 0% tariffs to every WTO member, then that is the case. But it doesn't specify the custom requirements - Norway/Sweden is fine, for example.

Quote:
woodpecker
Business, small/medium/large is not asking for this, it's made up.

With my limited business contacts, I know at least three companies that would prefer a free trade with the US than the EU. So it's obviously not entirely made up.

Quote:
woodpecker
...but if they want us to do trade deals with countries not in the EU or the 35 or so others, then its none of their business.

Whose business is it?

Nevertheless the customs union is not thr binary choice between world trade or EU trade. That is not what it does and I sonetimes wonder if a lot of politicians truly understand what it means.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:10
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
- growing, but outpaced (by peers and others)

So what, if we are growing enough to satisfy our needs who cares what others are doing?

But we're not are we? Unless you lie austerity and regard the current state of the NHS, social care etc as satisfactory.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:15
Quote:
woodpecker

Business, small/medium/large is not asking for this, it's made up. The funniest example of this is how we will be able to trade with China, when Germany inside the evil empire does 5 times the level of trade with China than we do now.


This!!

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:21
ANPR technology is proven, Customs reconciliation document management systems are proven, EU and UK both have robust external borders, EU and UK both express the need for no NI hard border. Those seem to be the building blocks required to resolve the NI border issue, all other raised issues are likely to be the consequence of political posturing.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:28
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
woodpecker
Yes the Bertie solution
1) As far as I know the technology solution is mainly hypothetical there isn't one yet.

Norway/Sweden has pre-registration, electronic systems (on the Norwegian side, EU is paper) and numberpate recognition. Your chance of delay as a road passenger is minimal. Lorrys it can be up to a couple of hours . I am sure ardent remainers can find a billion small problems but it is not beyond the wit of man.

(BTW, Sweden has to do some of the legwork - it's not all Norway).

Quote:
woodpecker
Also, the best friend of the brexiteers the WTO states both Britain and the EU would be obliged to have sufficient controls at their borders on goods movements.

Unless the UK unilaterally offers 0% tariffs to every WTO member, then that is the case. But it doesn't specify the custom requirements - Norway/Sweden is fine, for example.

Quote:
woodpecker
Business, small/medium/large is not asking for this, it's made up.

With my limited business contacts, I know at least three companies that would prefer a free trade with the US than the EU. So it's obviously not entirely made up.

Quote:
woodpecker
...but if they want us to do trade deals with countries not in the EU or the 35 or so others, then its none of their business.

Whose business is it?

Nevertheless the customs union is not thr binary choice between world trade or EU trade. That is not what it does and I sonetimes wonder if a lot of politicians truly understand what it means.

We can argue each of these points forever, my point is for some reason thos signing trade deals has become a red line, I can't for the life of me see what's driving this. I might be wrong but I think by virtue of being in the EU we have access to the biggest free trade deal that's ever existed.

To your point about whether members of the public should vote on trade deals in a referendum, then I would say no clearly not, I would say businesses/business organisations should be making that case.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:31
Quote:
Substitute

Norway/Sweden has pre-registration, electronic systems (on the Norwegian side, EU is paper) and numberpate recognition. Your chance of delay as a road passenger is minimal. Lorrys it can be up to a couple of hours .



Norway and Sweden is the closest to a workable model.

Even then, there is still a physical border presence which most think is unacceptable in Ireland, and many crossings have number plate cameras.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 13:48
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
- growing, but outpaced (by peers and others)

So what, if we are growing enough to satisfy our needs who cares what others are doing?

But we're not are we? Unless you lie austerity and regard the current state of the NHS, social care etc as satisfactory.

Austerity is a choice made by the Tories, growth could double and I doubt they'd relax it.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 14:13
Quote:
OutsideBath

Austerity is a choice made by the Tories, growth could double and I doubt they'd relax it.

What is austerity?

This country still spends more than it takes in. Every year it commits to spending more of its annual income on interest payments to (rich) organisations. With the PFI accounting 'trick', future generations are already signed up to an increased public spending burden, from which they will get diminishing returns.

Meanwhile loose fiscal policy has seen people's wages stagnate, as much in the private sector as the public with the added bonus of further driving up inequality.

All in all, we are spending tomorrow's money for the benefit of now. The idea that public spending can drive sustainable future growth can now be considered folly.
The idea of all-encompassing services is not achievable, will lead to future economic ruin and in reality, given most people barely use these services, will just make us poorer (however warm and fuzzy it makes you feel).

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 14:21
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
- growing, but outpaced (by peers and others)

So what, if we are growing enough to satisfy our needs who cares what others are doing?

But we're not are we? Unless you lie austerity and regard the current state of the NHS, social care etc as satisfactory.

Austerity is a choice made by the Tories, growth could double and I doubt they'd relax it.

So are you claiming our growth rate is 'satisfying the country's needs' or not?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 14:28
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
- growing, but outpaced (by peers and others)

So what, if we are growing enough to satisfy our needs who cares what others are doing?

But we're not are we? Unless you lie austerity and regard the current state of the NHS, social care etc as satisfactory.

Austerity is a choice made by the Tories, growth could double and I doubt they'd relax it.

So are you claiming our growth rate is 'satisfying the country's needs' or not?

I believe the growth rate is sufficient to satisfy our needs, but we have a government that isn't using the money effectively for UK citizens.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 14:32
Quote:
TCM2007

Even then, there is still a physical border presence which most think is unacceptable in Ireland...

Yes, terrorist apologists.

The kind of people who would suggest that because there is a bloke in a cabin checking lorries that it's permissible to carry out acts of violence.

Or let government policy be shaped by terrorism.

Quote:
Woodpecker
To your point about whether members of the public should vote on trade deals in a referendum, then I would say no clearly not, I would say businesses/business organisations should be making that case.

You don't think corporate interest can run contrary to public interest? I expect a lot of companies would be very protectionist, whereas more free trade could be in the public benefit. They might be happy to relax regulations to gain profit. Business has a case to make but I cant see how they could be safely left to decide.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 14:38
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
TCM2007

Even then, there is still a physical border presence which most think is unacceptable in Ireland...

Yes, terrorist apologists.

The kind of people who would suggest that because there is a bloke in a cabin checking lorries that it's permissible to carry out acts of violence.

Or let government policy be shaped by terrorism.

Quote:
Woodpecker
To your point about whether members of the public should vote on trade deals in a referendum, then I would say no clearly not, I would say businesses/business organisations should be making that case.

Have you ever listened to a phone in on radio 5 live?

You don't think corporate interest can run contrary to public interest? I expect a lot of companies would be very protectionist, whereas more free trade could be in the public benefit. They might be happy to relax regulations to gain profit. Business has a case to make but I cant see how they could be safely left to decide.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 17:55
private eye

[twitter.com]

How Brexit will hit the regions, not too bad for the South West:

[news.sky.com]

Good old northerners



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2018 18:51 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 18:10
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
DanWiley
At the risk of people saying "you're just calling people who disagree with you stupid", anyone who thought the actual act of voting to leave would yield the full effect, or even a particularly meaningful one, one way or the other, really isn't very bright.

That's good, we can ignore the treasury reports then given they're not very bright.

I am strongly reminded of the following quote

"Those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution as not adequately supported by facts, seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all."
Herbert Spencer



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 19:08
A report is usually based on the past with some forward projections i.e. forecasts. A forecast is not a fact it's an opinion...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 19:13
Can someone actually find these reports that day "the day after the vote all hell will break loose"?

I don't remember reading them, they certainly aren't cited here, but if you can find them I'll quite happily say "that was a stupid thing to say." They don't make those reports that say "in the medium to long term this is going to be bad." Any less accurate.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 19:48
Quote:
Clarkey3k
A report is usually based on the past with some forward projections i.e. forecasts. A forecast is not a fact it's an opinion...

It's amazing how many times this has to be pointed out.

Of course it's hard to judge the validity of a forecast. One camp argues the reputation of the forecastees is what matters (as who else could make a better prediction), the other argues that past performance should be used to judge future success.

Of course neither can confirm the accuracy of future forecast but I would say the more compelling evidence is on the past performance side.

And that's ignoring the fact that most economic forecasts are trying to predict variation on the last period. The further their prediction is from the previous, the greater the degree of potential inaccuracy. Likewise, large shocks are equally hard to predict.

I still maintain that the world would be a better place without economic forecasting, a la Hong Kong. That way governments would only spend the money they had and that politicians wouldn't be afraid to implement change because of an irrational fear that upsetting the status quo is a predictor of future gdp failure.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 20:02
Quote:
DanWiley
Can someone actually find these reports that day "the day after the vote all hell will break loose"?

Quote:
HM Treasury
This paper focuses on the immediate economic impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow. Such a vote would change fundamentally not just the UK’s
relationship with the EU, our largest trading partner, but also our relationship with the rest of the world. The instability and uncertainty that would trigger is assessed.

The Treasury analysis in this document uses a widely-accepted modelling approach that looks at the impact of this uncertainty and instability on financial markets,
households and businesses, as our economy transitions to a worse trading arrangement with the EU.

I am grateful to Professor Sir Charles Bean, one of our country's foremost economists and a former Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, who has reviewed this analysis and says that it “provides reasonable estimates of the likely size of the short-term
impact of a vote to leave on the UK economy”.

The analysis in this document comes to a clear central conclusion: a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would
push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000, GDP would be 3.6% smaller, average real wages would be lower, inflation higher, sterling weaker, house prices would be hit and public borrowing would rise compared with a vote to remain.

Not very bright, or politcal?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 20:12
It doesn't say what you are suggesting though. Read the actual report and it talks of the immediate period of the two following years.

Edit:

That said, I am happy to condemn Osbourn add an idiot.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2018 20:26 by DanWiley.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 20:59
Quote:
DanWiley
Can someone actually find these reports that day "the day after the vote all hell will break loose"?
I don't remember reading them, they certainly aren't cited here, but if you can find them I'll quite happily say "that was a stupid thing to say." They don't make those reports that say "in the medium to long term this is going to be bad." Any less accurate.


Google ‘george osborne brexit emergency budget predictions’ for a long list

See www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192 For BBC report.

I find it amazing that for all your previous talk about Brexit lies and ‘Project Fear’ you have completely ignored the biggest lie of all!

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 21:04
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
DanWiley
Can someone actually find these reports that day "the day after the vote all hell will break loose"?
I don't remember reading them, they certainly aren't cited here, but if you can find them I'll quite happily say "that was a stupid thing to say." They don't make those reports that say "in the medium to long term this is going to be bad." Any less accurate.


Google ‘george osborne brexit emergency budget predictions’ for a long list

See www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192 For BBC report.

I find it amazing that for all your previous talk about Brexit lies and ‘Project Fear’ you have completely ignored the biggest lie of all!

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 21:19
"ignored the biggest lie of all!"

The bus?

I'll accept that the emergency budget was a stupid thing to suggest. However, look at the report substitute dug up. If you actually read it it defines immediate as two years. But as I say, as it comes from gorgeous George, I've no problem with calling it stupid anyway.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 February, 2018 21:22
Come on!

The biggest lie was Osborne's threat of an emergency budget.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 06:02
Quote:
DanWiley
It doesn't say what you are suggesting though. Read the actual report and it talks of the immediate period of the two following years.

Ok, so because we're not at June yet (and ignoring the fact that the negative consequences have been over exaggerated for the period until now) we can can go back to listening to it?

Quote:
DanWiley
That said, I am happy to condemn Osbourn add an idiot.

Not only George Osbourne, the treasury too (and Sir Charles Bean).

It's the treasury who have leaked produced these latest regional/industrial assessments.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 06:08
[quote joethefanatic]
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.[/quote]

[Quote HM Treasury]
This paper focuses on the immediate economic impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow...The instability and uncertainty that would trigger is assessed.

...as our economy transitions to a trading arrangement with the EU.[/quote]

Spin it which ever way you want. If you listened to these 'experts', you should feel misled.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 07:31
[quote Substitute][quote joethefanatic]
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.[/quote]

[Quote HM Treasury]
This paper focuses on the immediate economic impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow...The instability and uncertainty that would trigger is assessed.

...as our economy transitions to a trading arrangement with the EU.[/quote]

Spin it which ever way you want. If you listened to these 'experts', you should feel misled.[/quote]

I listened to the Brexiters promise 365 mIlliion a week for the NHS and it turns out they just lied. So, yes I feel misled.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 07:46
"I listened to the Brexiters promise 365 mIlliion a week for the NHS and it turns out they just lied. So, yes I feel misled".

@jtf - a small point of difference, the figure which featured on the bus was £350m...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 08:06
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.

Quote:
HM Treasury
This paper focuses on the immediate economic impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow...The instability and uncertainty that would trigger is assessed.

...as our economy transitions to a trading arrangement with the EU.

Spin it which ever way you want. If you listened to these 'experts', you should feel misled.

I listened to the Brexiters promise 365 mIlliion a week for the NHS and it turns out they just lied. So, yes I feel misled.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.

(+ Nobody said the bus is an expert
+ The Bus isn't releasing reports to guide government policy after the vote)

Cry foul about the bus all you want. But if you believe these treasury reports should be believed this time, when they were so wildly wrong the last time, then you're only fooling yourself. And, as Feynman put it, that's the easiest person to fool.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 08:13 by Substitute.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 08:17
[quote joethefanatic][quote Substitute][quote joethefanatic]
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.[/quote]

[Quote HM Treasury]
This paper focuses on the immediate economic impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow...The instability and uncertainty that would trigger is assessed.

...as our economy transitions to a trading arrangement with the EU.[/quote]

Spin it which ever way you want. If you listened to these 'experts', you should feel misled.[/quote]

I listened to the Brexiters promise 365 mIlliion a week for the NHS and it turns out they just lied. So, yes I feel misled.[/quote]


365million is after we've stopped paying the EU. We haven't left yet so we don't know if this is possible.
Osborne promised and emergency budget after the vote and that plainly didn't happen.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 08:19
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.

Quote:
HM Treasury
This paper focuses on the immediate economic impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow...The instability and uncertainty that would trigger is assessed.

...as our economy transitions to a trading arrangement with the EU.

Spin it which ever way you want. If you listened to these 'experts', you should feel misled.

I listened to the Brexiters promise 365 mIlliion a week for the NHS and it turns out they just lied. So, yes I feel misled.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure we haven't actually left the EU yet.

They've admitted the lie and that the money will not be provided when we keave. Hence, misled.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 08:38
I confess I feel gravely disturbed. We are allying ourselves with six nations of Europe; it may be more, but six at present. Four of those we rescued only twenty years or so ago from domination by the other two.

[Three months later]

Unfortunately, in this country the propaganda for entering the Common Market has been largely based on defeatism. We are told that unless we do it we are going to have a terrible time. That is no way to go into a negotiation. You ought to go into a negotiation on the basis that they have need of you, not just you of them.

--- Clement Attlee

Rings true now.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 08:42
Quote:
DanWiley
That said, I am happy to condemn Osbourn add an idiot.

There are many words to describe this failed politician, but idiot isn't one of them. He knew exactly what he was doing at the time.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 09:01
Quote:
joethefanatic
They've admitted the lie and that the money will not be provided when we keave. Hence, misled.

Sure... Misled by a bus or misled by HM Treasury... I know which I'm more alarmed about. After all, we're supposed to listen to 'experts' not buses.

(Not to mention Vote Leave is not in government - Continuity Remain won that battle).

Besides, I haven't seen any buses expecting us to believe it's impact assessments lately.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 14:55
"The Bus isn't releasing reports to guide government policy after the vote"

Right so, it didn't mislead politicians it did mislead the public. Given we're in the mess because of the opinion of the public that's a problem.

"ut if you believe these treasury reports should be believed this time, when they were so wildly wrong the last time"

They haven't been shown to be wrong yet, indeed they look fairly accurate.

"After all, we're supposed to listen to 'experts' not buses. "

The problem is, it seems, more people did listen to a bus than to experts.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 15:00
Just received The Times Brexit briefing:


There was high expectation among ministers yesterday, meeting for the first time to discuss how to approach negotiations on post-Brexit relations with the EU, that they would learn what approach the prime minister intended to take. In the event they left the meeting none the wiser, frustrating some and bemusing others.

"It was all very high-level stuff. They didn't get into the weeds," said one source.

Another added that the meeting started with options presented by Mrs May's chief Brexit adviser, Olly Robbins, before the cabinet ministers present were asked to respond.

Mrs May didn't make her own views known at any point. Yesterday's meeting discussed the Irish border. They are meeting again today to talk about trade.

The worrying aspect of this is that time is running out. Mrs May is expected to outline Britain's proposals for a future relationship to the EU by the end of this month but no further cabinet meetings have been scheduled and no one appears to know what the next step is.

Reconciling the different views around the table will be hard, yet ministers have not even been sounded out about where they might compromise.

It is true we've been here before, in particular before Mrs May's Florence speech, but somehow this seems more serious.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 15:03
Quote:
DanWiley

The problem is, it seems, more people did listen to a bus than to experts.

In fairness to the public, experts are often wrong, but buses rarely are..

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 15:55
Brexit was/is less about money,jobs, economical issues and more about white nationalism, which is based on emotion not rational thought. So, even if our country is worse off after leaving Europe, it will not matter as they will get their country back. The sad thing is that the very people who voted for Brexit in large numbers ( poor white) will be the ones who will be effected negatively by the biggest degree.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 16:39
Quote:
DanWiley
Right so, it didn't mislead politicians it did mislead the public. Given we're in the mess because of the opinion of the public that's a problem.

Two points,
1. I suspect more of the public were convinced by the veracity of the treasury report than the bus. I suspect an even larger proportion thought both were rubbish.
2. It's a strange precedent to argue that politicians can be misled to implement to implement policy.


Quote:
DanWiley
They haven't been shown to be wrong yet, indeed they look fairly accurate.

I have quoted the post vote treasury report. It you think that is accurate then I think you being misled by yourself, let alone a bus.

Quote:
DanWiley
The problem is, it seems, more people did listen to a bus than to experts.

More people listened to neither, as both were ridiculous. The fact that the Treasury lent its name to these report has done its reputation no good.

Besides this bus has become a proxy for disgruntled remainer. Nobody who voted Brexit is going to change their mind because Remainers call them stupid.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 16:41
Quote:
BathPatriot
Brexit was/is less about money,jobs, economical issues and more about white nationalism, which is based on emotion not rational thought.

What a moronic comment.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 17:29
Sub, Brexit has been the biggest shot in the arm for white nationalism , you can choose to accept this or not , it will not change the reality. I have spoken to many white people who voted to leave and their identity was the main reason for leaving, hence the phrase” I want MY country back” .

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 17:57
Quote:
BathPatriot
Sub, Brexit has been the biggest shot in the arm for white nationalism , you can choose to accept this or not , it will not change the reality. I have spoken to many white people who voted to leave and their identity was the main reason for leaving, hence the phrase” I want MY country back” .

Ah the old Brexit vote = racist none sense.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:03
"I suspect more of the public were convinced by the veracity of the treasury report than the bus. I suspect an even larger proportion thought both were rubbish. "

Really? What proportion of the voting public do you think read the report? Or even knew it existed? On the other there are people even now who think the NHS is getting £350 million a week.

The report talks of extremely negative consequences beginning in the two years following the vote. Your quote says as much. Seems reasonable.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:06
I'm not sure I'd put in the terms that BP does, but there's no doubt race played a huge part in the result.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:10
Of course race played an enormous factor in the result, I am truly shocked that anyone would disagree with that .

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:12
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm not sure I'd put in the terms that BP does, but there's no doubt race played a huge part in the result.

Oh good another moronic comment.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:21
Sub, is that how you debate with people? You disagree with them , you don’t offer evidence based reason for me being wrong, you just throw insults. Sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 18:27 by BathPatriot.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:27
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm not sure I'd put in the terms that BP does, but there's no doubt race played a huge part in the result.

The more intelligent way to put it would be to say that immigration was of great concern to many that voted leave.

The less intelligent infer that racists voted leave.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:48
Presumably he's run out of ideas.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 18:50
When fear of immigration is irrational and based on prejudice then it's pretty much racism.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 19:00
To say White nationalism was the cause of brexit is incorrect. A study I have seen is that one third of the Black, Asian and Ethnic Minority voted for Brexit worried about the threat to their livelihood from EU immigration.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 19:07
In fairness, in this case, skin colour couldn't be used as identification, so I don't see why British ethic minorities would be immune to this, I have to say, misplaced fear?

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 19:43
Brexit was not caused by racism or white nationalism. It may well have been a contributory factor for some but not that many. It’s the old “all racists voted Leave therefore all Leavers are racists” logical fallacy.

However straightforward nationalism, AKA “Take back control” was a much bigger factor IMHO.

Regrettably the Remain campaign allowed it to become patriotism & freedom vs. dull economic predictions, which inspired no-one. Add a dose of on opportunity to stick one to the Establishment and you had a lethal combination.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 20:06
TCM, your right, Brexit was not caused by white nationalism but the underlying issues rapped up in the immigration debate was a huge if not critical factor why the country voted leave. There has been a plethora of programs on tv digging into such issues and race/immigration is clearly why Britain voted out.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 20:08
Ask yourself this question, if immigration was not an issue, would Britain have voted to leave,, no, I don’t think so.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 February, 2018 21:46
Then:
Merkel mocks Theresa May's Brexit negotiations

Now:
Quote:
Bild
[The new Coalition deal with the SPD] “is historically the worst negotiating result ever obtained by an election winner.”

What's the saying: What goes around...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 21:47 by Substitute.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 08:07
The success or otherwise of the negotiated coalition is a thing that only time will tell. But the domestic position Merkel is in was not down to a calamitous total misjudgment and a disaster of an election campaign

And the latest bleatings from Davis to accuse the EU of cancelling meetings will only wash with those who share his blinkers

It is so, so difficult to see how we can secure any possible, creditable solution from this colossal, unnecessary mess

If you want a far better metaphor then try swamp, crocodiles and clearing

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 09:03
Quote:
BathPatriot
Brexit was/is less about money,jobs, economical issues and more about white nationalism, which is based on emotion not rational thought. So, even if our country is worse off after leaving Europe, it will not matter as they will get their country back. The sad thing is that the very people who voted for Brexit in large numbers ( poor white) will be the ones who will be effected negatively by the biggest degree.

(White) nationalism is a symptom. A symptom of a society where those at the bottom have seen no improvement in their incomes and their local services stripped to the bone by 10 years of austerity. In those circumstances people look for someone to blame and have been easy prey to the UKIPpers, the Nationalists, the racists and of course, those in power who for convenience deflect blame for all this from themselves onto the EU.

It makes me very sad that whenever I watch Question Time there are plenty who have swallowed this hook, line and sinker as if 'getting back control' over our money, borders and laws is somehow going to give them any more say in how their country is run at all.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 09:07
Does that explain why Merkel lost so many voters with her open door immigration policy?

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 09:52
Spot on jay! I really do hope our nation becomes wealthier because of Brexit I just want some honesty to some of the main reasons behind Brexit and some clearly are quite distasteful.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 11:14
Quote:
BathPatriot
Spot on jay! I really do hope our nation becomes wealthier because of Brexit I just want some honesty to some of the main reasons behind Brexit and some clearly are quite distasteful.

I think you're right to highlight immigration as one of the main reasons for Brexit and Dave failed to counter this during campaigning and instead focussed on the economy. Some, but not all, may indeed have had distasteful motives which is wrong.

However is it really so wrong to want to reduce the level of immigration to the UK and to only allow high quality individuals we need to come here? Equally should we not be able to kick out anyone we don't want here regardless of where they come from or their circumstances?

If we do manage to reduce the numbers coming it might also have the benefit of reducing the destruction of the countryside with bland, characterless junk new homes that are swamping our green and pleasant land.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 11:18
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
BathPatriot
Spot on jay! I really do hope our nation becomes wealthier because of Brexit I just want some honesty to some of the main reasons behind Brexit and some clearly are quite distasteful.

I think you're right to highlight immigration as one of the main reasons for Brexit and Dave failed to counter this during campaigning and instead focussed on the economy. Some, but not all, may indeed have had distasteful motives which is wrong.

However is it really so wrong to want to reduce the level of immigration to the UK and to only allow high quality individuals we need to come here? Equally should we not be able to kick out anyone we don't want here regardless of where they come from or their circumstances?

If we do manage to reduce the numbers coming it might also have the benefit of reducing the destruction of the countryside with bland, characterless junk new homes that are swamping our green and pleasant land.


I agree Outside Bath, I thnk we should be demolishing houses not building new ones, whenever a governement says they are going to build 6 million houses a year it drives me nuts, the good news is its always a lie.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 12:05
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
BathPatriot
Spot on jay! I really do hope our nation becomes wealthier because of Brexit I just want some honesty to some of the main reasons behind Brexit and some clearly are quite distasteful.

However is it really so wrong to want to reduce the level of immigration to the UK and to only allow high quality individuals we need to come here? Equally should we not be able to kick out anyone we don't want here regardless of where they come from or their circumstances?

No it isn't.
But it is completely wrong to blame the failure to control immigration on the EU when it is blatantly the fault of successive governments to implement existing rules.

It isn't just highly-skilled people our economy needs though: Who's fault is it that our economy suffers from such low productivity that it needs vast numbers of low-skilled workers to pick the fruit, clean, wait, cook etc?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 12:18
Quote:
jayeatman
...the EU when it is blatantly the fault of successive governments to implement existing rules.

The actual EU directive is copied and pasted earlier in the thread. Suggest you give it a read.

Quote:
jayeatman
It isn't just highly-skilled people our economy needs though: Who's fault is it that our economy suffers from such low productivity that it needs vast numbers of low-skilled workers to pick the fruit, clean, wait, cook etc?

Who hired them instead of investing in training and technology.

Productivity is a function of the available workforce, bot the other way round.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 12:39
It was much bigger than immigration it was a UKIP driven illusion of a throwback to a bygone year of empire, Made in Britain was a world-wide recognised stamp of quality and Britannia ruled the waves etc etc that was backed by many that stayed in the Tory party

Instilling a cosy, nostalgic feeling with the over 60s a la Orwell with cricket and warm beer as well as many 25 - 35 fearing over stretched public services unable to cope with the immigration tsunami and mass loss of jobs to Johnny Foreigner

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 12:48
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
jayeatman
...the EU when it is blatantly the fault of successive governments to implement existing rules.

The actual EU directive is copied and pasted earlier in the thread. Suggest you give it a read.

Quote:
jayeatman
It isn't just highly-skilled people our economy needs though: Who's fault is it that our economy suffers from such low productivity that it needs vast numbers of low-skilled workers to pick the fruit, clean, wait, cook etc?

Who hired them instead of investing in training and technology.

Productivity is a function of the available workforce, bot the other way round.

Immigration from non EU countries has not been "controlled" despite us having full freedom to set whatever rules we like. The "immigration is the EU's fault" line is patently nonsense. Especially when you hear aforementioned racists and white nationalists who clearly have issues with people whose colour and religion suggest they are not from Europe.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 12:59
Quote:
TCM2007
[
Immigration from non EU countries has not been "controlled" despite us having full freedom to set whatever rules we like. The "immigration is the EU's fault" line is patently nonsense. Especially when you hear aforementioned racists and white nationalists who clearly have issues with people whose colour and religion suggest they are not from Europe.

We do control non-EU migration. There are requirements to be met. Maybe they are softer than people want but there are rules notionally set to protect national interest.

Secondly, of the areas with the highest number of EU migrants, 90% voted leave.in areas with high non-EU migration that number falls drastically.

Where is any evidence that the number of fascists and white nationalists has increased, let alone be enough of the population to significantly affect the vote.

It's everything that's wrong with liberalism. It would be far better if those who approve of immigration (though I doubt any would argue for completely uncontrolled borders) could explain to us why economic studies are the only thing that should matter to people and not the plethora of other completely justifiable reasons.

But no, lets just play the racist, nationalist card again.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 13:08
I know that the Blair government failed to introduce transitional limits on the succession countries, but I dont think we can control immigration from the EU now can we? If yes, how?

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 13:11
Quote:
Substitute
It would be far better if those who approve of immigration (though I doubt any would argue for completely uncontrolled borders) could explain to us why economic studies are the only thing that should matter to people and not the plethora of other completely justifiable reasons.

We "liberals" certainly over-relied on the economics card. Few were prepared to put their head above the parapet and say that they believed, as I do, that in some areas the supremacy of the nation state is an outdated concept, and that we should operate in whatever size of geographical unit is most appropriate - be it village, town, district, county, in-the-UK-nation, country or EU. That one of those rules over all the others makes no sense to me.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 13:12
Quote:
woodpecker
I know that the Blair government failed to introduce transitional limits on the succession countries, but I dont think we can control immigration from the EU now can we? If yes, how?

Physically barring people no, but if they don't have a job or can prove they are actively seeking work they can't claim benefits and have to leave. Many other EU countries enforce this.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 February, 2018 13:19
[m.youtube.com]
This was a short video made before the vote and sums really well the MAIN issue of Brexit. Immigration. The UKIP “ I want my country back” is everywhere as is ill informed and lies concerning immigration as well. It makes for depressing viewing.

Current Page: 10 of 13

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?