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Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 15:13
Quote:
DanWiley
Yes, we are going to have to listen to people who have educated themselves in this area and devote their lives to studying it. We're going to have to put our economic future in the hands of, dare I say it, experts. Because the alternative is to put our future in the hands of people who don't know what they are talking about, and that doesn't seem right to me.

The EU is a political project. It's economic aspects are intrinsically linked to it's political aspects. (Same for the legal aspects).

I suspect there are very few 'experts' in everyone of those fields. Most 'experts' probably have little interest on the other aspects. For example, the IMF may say it will cost you 'X' (a prediction) but they don't care if that means signing up for more EU law (and EU laws has never diminished).

More likely you are arguing that because X forecast = bad therefore to stop the bad outcome you stop Brexit. Which would ignore politics (what need the view of the people), the fact that peoples lives have got harder despite our membership of these organisations and that fact that these forecasts are shaky at best and these forecasters aren't trusted.

Quote:
DanWiley
Have you ever tried this? Perhaps you might want to give it a go, head down to your local bookie, stick your house on us winning the HEC and then just "invent it". Let us know how you get on.

Yeah, I see you understand the quote. Working in a high-tech industry I presume you've heard of PARC?

Quote:
DanWiley
Maybe, but I think few sufficiently so to change their voting pattern, UKIP as a electoral party didn't really do that well. Moreover, as said, its not like we didn't have control if we wanted it.

Who can they vote for? Labour who want more immigration (partly because it increases their vote) or the Conservatives who patently don't care about bringing down immigration? Or a fringe party who they know won't get in?

Anyway, we didn't have very limited control and we can't stop them coming in and we can't deport them under EU law (merely remove their right to reside). You'll find the quoted EU law earlier in this thread.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 15:21
Quote:
Substitute

Most of the UK voting population are against uncontrolled free movement. There is plenty of polling to suggest this.

Yes they probably do but as long as their fruit & veg get picked, their elderly are looked after properly, their food is served, their hotels and guest houses are run effectively, their groceries are distributed from the warehouses, the hospitals are kept clean and hygenic -but of course they will be queing up to do those jobs as they are now!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 15:49
I think you'd find there are plenty of experts bridging those fields. The challenge for the politicians will be filtering their advise not searching for it.

I'm quite happy with the idea the the population hold our politicians to account through a democratic process. I think it is a bad idea to throw decisions out to the population in general as they really aren't terribly well equipped to make those decisions. That's a perfectly valid form of democracy, indeed it is the one we subscribe to as a general rule in this country.

I have heard of PARC. I don't think the quote is particularly relevant. Knowing its source makes it less so if anything.

"Who can they vote for? Labour who want more immigration (partly because it increases their vote) or the Conservatives who patently don't care about bringing down immigration? Or a fringe party who they know won't get in? "

Well, quite, there was an option for people to vote for IF they really cared about this issue and overall relatively few did.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 15:49
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
CoochieCoo
The problem is that 17 months later they are still clueless, they voted for something they hadn't a clue how to execute despite different versions from Norway to Iceland and all versions appear to be unacceptable! So no deal is where we are going, fasten your seat belts, folks!

Who is the 'they' in this comment ? I don't remember the Referendum question being 'Yes or No' and come up with a plan of how you, Mr or Mrs Voter, will then run the country thereafter.

I think most people would agree it was a pretty stupid way to run a referendum but we have to move forward, question is which way.

They are the leaders of the leave campaign who did not have any agreed idea of how to implement a leave vote and still don't. Regretfully, 52% of us put our blind faith in these clueless leaders and now we are in a mess!

I don't think a cliff edge decision will be the end of the world but I expect a lot of graft and pain to get back to where we were.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 16:51
Quote:
DanWiley
I think you'd find there are plenty of experts bridging those fields. The challenge for the politicians will be filtering their advise not searching for it.

Can you please direct to the work of these EU political and legal and economic experts?

Quote:
DanWiley
I'm quite happy with the idea the the population hold our politicians to account through a democratic process. I think it is a bad idea to throw decisions out to the population in general as they really aren't terribly well equipped to make those decisions.

So, what's the point of democracy. To throw out bad politicians? We might as well have an oligarchy.

Quote:
DanWiley
Knowing its source makes it less so if anything.

And why is that?

Quote:
DanWiley
Well, quite, there was an option for people to vote for IF they really cared about this issue and overall relatively few did.

Elections are not single issue matters. That are lots of people, in fact most people, who feel strongly about immigration yet can't countenance voting for UKIP solely because their views align on one matter (or even a few matters). Not to mention a vote for a smaller party feels like wasting your vote.

I do think the amount of votes UKIP got given its lack of funding, its characterisation in the press and the obvious fact that it was never going to topple the established parties was quite remarkable.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 17:23
"So, what's the point of democracy. To throw out bad politicians?"

Yep, depending on what you mean by bad politicians. But yes, the process should be to ensure that we have competent politicians that represent us. The process should NOT be for us to make decisions for them.

"We might as well have an oligarchy."

Nope, don't see how that follows at all. If the population select their desired politicians then I don't see how it can follow? Its definitively not an oligarchy.

"And why is that? "

Because the quote, as I see it, is aimed at predicting the future of technological development and not political or economic ones. It's a nice aspiration for a tech company to say "let's invent the future", if a little hackneyed (it might not have been in 1971). It would it make a politician sound facile.


"Elections are not single issue matters. "

yes, politics is not about a single black and white issue and Brexit isn't either. It was a mistake to try and reduce it to such.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 17:38
Quote:
Substitute
Anyway, we didn't have very limited control and we can't stop them coming in and we can't deport them under EU law (merely remove their right to reside). You'll find the quoted EU law earlier in this thread.

EU regs say you have 3 months to find a job as an EU immigrant. If you don't then you are liable for deportation to your country of origin. In order to access to benefits, you have to demonstrate "habitual residence" which covers a a reasonablt extensive bunch of criteria including "a sufficient degree of attachment to the host country" Any government worth it's salt could make that too tough to pass, but we chose not to. Furthermore, Germany, to pick a random example, has closed it's borders to all non-EU immigrants who are not highly skilled. All this is legal under EU law and we could have done this but we chose not to.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 21:14
Quote:
DanWiley
Yep, depending on what you mean by bad politicians. But yes, the process should be to ensure that we have competent politicians that represent us. The process should NOT be for us to make decisions for them. .

If the function of democracy is to select competent politicians to represent then they might as well send out CVs and stop pretending to stand on issues.

Quote:
DanWiley
Nope, don't see how that follows at all. If the population select their desired politicians then I don't see how it can follow? Its definitively not an oligarchy.

Because true expertise is non-partisan. If it is the duty of the politician to follow expertise then there is no need for parties, no need to stand for issues, no need to cater to people's varied values.

You just do what the expert tells you. It's a technocracy, which is a form of Oligarchy.

Quote:
DanWiley
yes, politics is not about a single black and white issue and Brexit isn't either. It was a mistake to try and reduce it to such.

In your opinion. In mine it was very clear. We remain a member of the EU or we leave. If the political class are so removed from the will of the country then a referendum seems a sensible way to right the ship.

If the politicians can't get their @#$%& together over this and position this country to thrive (which they haven't for a long time), then that's not the people's fault.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 21:46
"EU regs say you have 3 months to find a job as an EU immigrant. If you don't then you are liable for deportation to your country of origin."

Quote:
Directive 2004/38/EC
EC 14 4(b): By way of derogation from paragraphs 1 and 2 and without prejudice to the provisions of Chapter VI, an expulsion measure may in no case be adopted against Union citizens or their family members if:
(a) the Union citizens are workers or self-employed persons, or
(b) the Union citizens entered the territory of the host Member State in order to seek employment. In this case, the Union citizens and their family members may not be expelled for as long as the Union citizens can provide evidence that they are continuing to seek employment and that they have a genuine chance of being engaged.

"In order to access to benefits, you have to demonstrate "habitual residence" which covers a a reasonably extensive bunch of criteria including "a sufficient degree of attachment to the host country""

Only if you are jobless. Given a large proportion of our benefits are 'consumed' by those in work, it makes little difference.

"Furthermore, Germany, to pick a random example, has closed it's borders to all non-EU immigrants who are not highly skilled." All this is legal under EU law and we could have done this but we chose not to."

To a certain extent we do this for non-EU nationals

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 22:16
Quote:
Substitute
In mine (opinion) it was very clear. We remain a member of the EU or we leave.

Interested to know what sort of leave you voted for?

1. Complete with no divorce payment and revert to WTO and hope for free trade deals to evolve in time.
2. Norway, Canada or some other current deal with a non EU country
3. Divorce payment and bespoke deal with some sort of annual financial payment to the EU only
4. Some other idea?

Maybe you can also tell us how the leaders of the leave campaign in Govt are doing on your instruction at the referendum.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
27 November, 2017 22:37
To change the subject slightly, I and no doubt millions of others, am seriously concerned about the Irish and Northern Ireland border/customs issue. p.s. I was at the time of the Referendum too - something that the 'Remain' campaign team mostly ignored or were drowned out by the rightwing Brexiteers. Take back control? - there goes that herd of flying pigs again!


Since then we have the added complication (a polite word for me) of the DUP holding May and Co to ransom - although I wonder if they will overplay their hand??? Aileen Foster makes Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth D look like wobbly undecided examples of political womanhood.(Sm124)

I am of an age to recall only too well the ghastly period of the vicious civil war during the 70's and 80's and believe that these issues are still only just under control beneath the surface - (what say the Russians decide to fish in muddy waters and stir up that particular hornets nest to suit their agenda).



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 00:07
Quote:
CoochieCoo
[
Interested to know what sort of leave you voted for?

Interested to know what sort of Remain you voted for?

1) The Monnet-Delors model of ever closer integration and diminished national identity.
2) The naive idea of reform, ignoring the fact that the EU institutions themselves were conceived as a centralising force.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 00:23
Quote:
annie blackthorn
To change the subject slightly, I and no doubt millions of others, am seriously concerned about the Irish and Northern Ireland border/customs issue.

The debate around Ireland is getting perverse. I'm not aware of the suggestion that any other country should base its domestic policy on the concerns of another independent nation.

It's also becoming quite clear that it is Ireland that wishes to, or will have to, enforce the border. As Bertie Ahern said, the UK is fine with technology and, by implication, the smuggling that will come with it.

That's not to mention that Northern Ireland's largest market is the Uk (by far), so its bizarre that anyone can countenance putting the border in the sea as angood idea - I suspect it's remainer tactics.


Quote:
annie blackthorn
I am of an age to recall only too well the ghastly period of the vicious civil war during the 70's and 80's and believe that these issues are still only just under control beneath the surface...

Annir, the answer is quite simple. Terrorism and violence are unacceptable. Terrorism and violence because of a virtual border, or a hard border or any border is still unacceptable.

(To add context, my mother is Irish - her father was born in the republic, her mother in the North. She remembers it well too but.doesn't believe it excuses terrorism).

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 01:43
Quote:
Substitute
It's also becoming quite clear that it is Ireland that wishes to, or will have to, enforce the border. As Bertie Ahern said, the UK is fine with technology and, by implication, the smuggling that will come with it.
That's not to mention that Northern Ireland's largest market is the Uk (by far), so its bizarre that anyone can countenance putting the border in the sea as angood idea - I suspect it's remainer tactics.

This is an interesting question. As we are talking about the UK leaving, it will therefore be the EU, not Ireland, that enforces the border just as it does with all the other external borders to the Union. The internal EU Schengen area is borderless but members of the EU who are outside of Schengen zone (which the UK is) still have border checks to enter the EU. My understanding is the the lack of checks at the Irish border is due to the 1923 Common Travel Area arrangement between the UK and Eire. However, as UK government policy is currently that we will be outside both the EU AND the EU customs area, how can there not be a hard border?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 02:02 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 07:34
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
CoochieCoo
[
Interested to know what sort of leave you voted for?

Interested to know what sort of Remain you voted for?

1) The Monnet-Delors model of ever closer integration and diminished national identity.
2) The naive idea of reform, ignoring the fact that the EU institutions themselves were conceived as a centralising force.

Typical cop out answer a question with a question. It doesn't matter now but I did explain why I was voting remain in the original Brexit thread. I lost you won so help us out here as to what you expect the Govt to do? Otherwise the label of clueless has to prevail.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 07:52 by CoochieCoo.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 08:06
Will a soft border make Ireland a gateway for illegal immigrants?

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 08:18
Hasn't there been a soft border between NI and Eire since 1949? Long before we joined the EU! With modern technology I don't see why a hard border is necessary.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 08:54
Ever since this whole debate started there has been no objective fact. For every subject there are opposing views. Given the Irish Border is a specific issue and it is one of the three elements of the first phase of the negotiations, I was hoping it would bring some actual clarity to the debate.

Unfortunately not, we still seem to be nowhere, the likes of Owen Patterson saying we can have an electronic border, the Irish fovernment saying NI needs to stay in the customs union.

I take Liam Fox's point that we can't fully nail this until we have a trade deal, but this is what they agreed to i.e. the phasing.

I think I will have to wait a bit longer to see an actual tangible impact of Brexit. I had assumed the devaluation of the £ was that, but as per my discusssion with Substitute last week, apparently not.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 09:34
"You just do what the expert tells you. It's a technocracy, which is a form of Oligarchy. "

At what point have I said said politicians should "JUST do what the experts say"? They should listen to experts, a range of them, weight up that advice and make their decisions. We should elect those politicians based on their ability to do that in a way that represents us. At no level is that a technocracy or Oligarchy, surely you can see that?

I would also like to know what type of Brexit you did vote for.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 12:16
It is ironic that the mantra 'control over our borders' doesn't apply to the Irish one, but I can sort of see Liam Fox's argument:

If we have totally free-trade, the customs issue goes away and the Irish problem becomes much easier to solve. It doesn't solve the immigrant problem but all our borders are pretty porous on that front.

This is though another example of the Brexiter 'Cake-and-eat-it' argument as the EU riposte is always going to be: 'The only way to get totally free trade is to be inside the Single Market and Customs Union which you don't want.'

To which the Maybot reply is 'We want a deep and special relationship' and 'both sides need to be flexible and imaginative'.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 12:46
One of my favourites:

'neither side wants a hard border'

OK good, job's done then

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 12:59
Quote:
CoochieCoo

Typical cop out answer a question with a question. It doesn't matter now but I did explain why I was voting remain in the original Brexit thread. I lost you won so help us out here as to what you expect the Govt to do? Otherwise the label of clueless has to prevail.

Because it was a typical cop-out question in the first place. Likewise, you can find my reasoning and understanding in the original thread.

I expect the government to leave the EU and all institutions where are membership is as a part of the EU. The government then has the authority to enter into foreign relations agreements as it already does - some of which may be opting into arrangements we were in as a member of the EU.

Likewise, the EU (it seems the undemocratic commission) are perfectly entitled to withhold anything as they see fit. That doesn't make it economically sound or moral but that's foreign relations.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 13:04
'Take back control'



[www.farminguk.com]

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 13:17
Check out the OECD Economic outlook table, the UK will be 19th out of all G20 countries for growth by 2019.

'Lets fund our NHS instead'.

[www.independent.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 13:20
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Hasn't there been a soft border between NI and Eire since 1949? Long before we joined the EU! With modern technology I don't see why a hard border is necessary.

There was a soft border for goods when both Eire and the UK were both outside the EU by mutual agreement.

There was a soft border when both Eire and the UK were both inside the EU because we were both in the customs union, rendering customs controls unnecessary.

We can't return to the first one because, like it or not, Eire is IN the custom union and we will be outside it, and agreeing to have a soft border is therefore for the UK and the customs union (ie, the EU) to agree, not the UK and Eire. In other words, it depends on the trade deal.

Technology can speed up the process of moving across the border CC, but it can't make it unnecessary unless there are no tariffs to be paid.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 13:30
'Take back control of our borders'



[politics.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 17:27
Divorce bill agreed as between Ä45-Ä55 bn left open to calculation!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 17:56
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Divorce bill agreed as between Ä45-Ä55 bn left open to calculation!

So 5-6 years net contributions. Certainly not Ä80-120 bn and certainly not Ä0. Strangely, it's almost exactly in between.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
28 November, 2017 17:58
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Divorce bill agreed as between Ä45-Ä55 bn left open to calculation!

Is that the sound of Boris whistling I hear?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 08:01
Quote:
Substitute

I expect the government to leave the EU and all institutions where are membership is as a part of the EU. The government then has the authority to enter into foreign relations agreements as it already does - some of which may be opting into arrangements we were in as a member of the EU.

Likewise, the EU (it seems the undemocratic commission) are perfectly entitled to withhold anything as they see fit. That doesn't make it economically sound or moral but that's foreign relations.

Nothing about the most important factor our future relationships with the largest trading bloc in the world. Are you for a Norway or what?



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 08:34 by CoochieCoo.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 08:14
'The UK holds all the cards in the EU divorce bill'

'They can go whistle'

'We won't pay a penny'


[www.independent.co.uk]










'We will pay £50 billion, plus another 100 billion Euro's in liabilities'



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 08:34 by Man from LA.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 08:36
'Sod off' Priti Patel


I wish she would.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 08:40
Man from LA, do you have anything to say other than posting links? These are other peoples opinions, wouldn't it be better to offer yours?

Personally I now think we will stagger to a mid position solution on all the Brexit points and Teresa May will see it through, whether she stays afterwards is another matter.

Whatever happens, even if the UK did a 180 turn at the last minute, (which I very much doubt), Europe and the EU has been changed. Our previous terms would need renegotiating even if we stayed.

Europe is a really fluid beast, France has changed and I suspect will change again in 5 years time, Germany can't follow the same policies as it did and there are some big financial challenges to stabilise southern Europe.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 08:41
Quote:
CoochieCoo

Nothing about the most important factor our future relationships with the largest trading bloc in the world. Are you for a Norway or what?

No.

We are leaving the EU, we are a member of the single market through our membership of the EU, we leave the single market.

Our government is responsible for the negotiation and future terms, our parliament will approve (note: it has separately passed Article 50) and the voters will judge them on what they deliver (except they're probably already voting Tory or Labour anyway and care about other things).

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 08:52
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
CoochieCoo

Nothing about the most important factor our future relationships with the largest trading bloc in the world. Are you for a Norway or what?

No.

We are leaving the EU, we are a member of the single market through our membership of the EU, we leave the single market.

Our government is responsible for the negotiation and future terms, our parliament will approve (note: it has separately passed Article 50) and the voters will judge them on what they deliver (except they're probably already voting Tory or Labour anyway and care about other things).

You voted to leave without knowing what our economic future would be with the most important trading bloc near us . Good grief!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:16
Quote:
CoochieCoo

You voted to leave without knowing what our economic future would be with the most important trading bloc near us . Good grief!

Blimey, that's some emotional language...

No. I voted knowing it was the competence of the government to negotiate our arrangements with that nearby trading block.

And no, I don't believe the strength and success of this country is because of charity from the EU and I don't believe this country cannot survive and thrive without the EU. Here we differ, it seems you do.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:22
But Norway is NOT a member of the EU but is a member of the EEA. So that would be fine with you presumably?

What about the Swiss option. Not a member of the EU, tick. But is part of the EFTA.

So those are valid options with you?

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:23
It's quite clear that the Quitters who have been campaigning for years to leave the security of the EU have no idea what to do now that their ideological (wet) dream has come true. No answers to the Irish border fiasco and a return to violence in NI, no answers to the Kent customs tailbacks, no answers to why the rest of us should have austerity for at least 20 years (after we have left), no answers on who is going to pick the crops or work for minimum wage in the care homes, just glib sound-bites, obfuscation and capitulation to everything that the EU have rightly asked for (we chose to leave, not them). This bunch of chancer career-politicians couldn't make a bigger ****-up of this if they tried. All of this and for what? We will either be joined to the EU but on much worse terms than we are now, or we will be an economic wasteland with no EU trade deal that has crops rotting in the fields and has to import chlorinated chicken from the USA. If we do get a deal with the EU it will be on their terms (it is always the same with any larger nation/bloc that holds all the cards in trading negotiations). Either way, the campaign to fully re-join the EU will be strengthened as no-one wants to be poorer.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:24
Man from LA

thumbs down



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 09:33 by Substitute.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:29
That was pretty poorly timed Substitute.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:32
Quote:
DanWiley
But Norway is NOT a member of the EU but is a member of the EEA. So that would be fine with you presumably?
What about the Swiss option. Not a member of the EU, tick. But is part of the EFTA.

So those are valid options with you?

No, our membership of the EEA is through our EU membership.

We are not currently a member of EFTA.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:36
Quote:
DanWiley
That was pretty poorly timed Substitute.


Substitute


thumbs down

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 09:42
"No, our membership of the EEA is through our EU membership.

We are not currently a member of EFTA."

But clearly you can be a member of these things without being a member of the EU, so lets do that.

For me its still a weaker position that being in the EU, but I really don't get what your objection to that is? We've left the EU. Stupid but done. Why make it really hard for ourselves?

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 10:02
Quote:
Substitute

No. I voted knowing it was the competence of the government to negotiate our arrangements with that nearby trading block.


Competence of the government! I hope you don't mind but Good Grief again!

Quote:
Substitute
And no, I don't believe the strength and success of this country is because of charity from the EU and I don't believe this country cannot survive and thrive without the EU. Here we differ, it seems you do.

I don't believe a net payer to the EU is receiving charity! The net payment in my view is well worth it to be able to trade with our largest doorstep market. The country will survive, but thrive? Have you not seen the forecasts of growth from the OECD which are even lower than the budget OBR forecasts! There is a lot of pain to come, I fear.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 10:29 by CoochieCoo.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 10:14
I wonder how much real negotiating has been going on? Beginning to suspect its all being done with mirrors - or going through the motions. The uncertainty to so many firms who trade across the Channel (I mean by that using the Port of Dover etc) is crippling them, especially the smaller ones. 60% of our fresh foods come from the EU - is there any sign at all that the government (and I don't mean the Tories but the whole caboodle)are planning, let alone physically doing, anything to cope with this change e.g. employing more people, buying up land to create lorry parks, border control centres etc. Do hope someone has some positive news on this.

As for the Irish question - Aaaaaaargh!
And yet, we still have those who insist, in a trance like state, but we will be taking back control! Of what, pray??????
Environmental standards
Food standards
Scientific research
etc. etc. eetc.

Heyho! Anyone got an idea how to survive in good mental health the next 10 years?



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 10:25
Man from LA,

I've heard many arguments projecting the UK after Brexit that predict economic doom and gloom but to predict a return to violence in Ireland and blaming it on Brexit is just extreme, I'm not saying violence wont return but the seeds for the Ireland problem were started over 300 years ago.

Your post just sounds like a mini project fear.

As I suggested earlier it seems to me there will be a "Great British compromise" the settlement figure seems a perfect example of this.

I get that Brexit won't make us a wealthy nation short term but you assume that the economy was the the only factor affecting voting, I think you are wrong on that one. Long term, in or out of the EU our wealth will be decided not by who we trade with but how productive we are.

There has been no investment by successive governments in solutions for stalling productivity, that has to change, we have a chance to do that now and Brexit has highlighted it.

The problem with government is that no government plans any further ahead than 5 years, simply because investing huge sums of money for 5 years for future prosperity won't get you voted in when year 6 comes along! Everyone want immediate success and prosperity.

Are Germany or France going to sacrifice their nations prosperity for the long term good of Greece, Spain, Portugal or the UK? I don't think so as the instigators wouldn't get re-elected.

You would need a new style of government to do this. European countries don't all have identical needs because each country is different in geography and resources. One size doesn't fit all and altruism doesn't exist.

Smaller collectives of countries with similar needs and goals probably have a future, but the currently the EU is too big.

Your prognosis requires worst case scenario for every challenge you listed, that simply won't happen.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 10:27
It's days like this I miss malco and his totally single minded, blinkered dedication to Brexit no matter the consequences.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 10:31
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Competence of the government! I hope you don't mind but Good Grief again!

I didn't say they were competent? But then they are who we voted in to handle things like this...

Quote:
CoochieCoo
Have you not seen the forecasts of growth from the OECD which are even lower than the budget ONS forecasts! There is a lot of pain to come, I fear.

I don't fear pain due to Brexit - though I am sure I will reliably be told how painful it is.

What I really fear is resistance to change, and the seemingly growing feeling that is for government to support and control people's lives rather than provide the conditions and responsibility to thrive for themselves.

Genuinely I believe Labours ideas (Im not talking about general competence) and this spend now mentality are far more dangerous for the long term health of this country than any trade agreement ever could be.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 11:09
I don't think there can be a compromise on Ireland though. Either there is a very soft boarder, in which case the UK has a soft boarder with the EU and we're effectively in some form of EEA, which is apparently intolerable. Or there is a boarder and I can quite easily see that inflaming unionists and nationalists, many of whom will quite happily inflame each other and whilst we can hope that they won't start shooting each other and blowing people up again it is just hope as far as I can see. It certainly seems a possibility.

You can't just label everything you don't want to hear "project fear".

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 11:23
I will play devils advocate here and I'm asking this generally, but why do we pay a massive amount into the EU budget i.e. a differential amount based on wealth?

Without looking it up I think that the idea is that within the block there are poor countries and rich countries, and if you invest in the poor ones, into their infrastructure etc, eventually they become richer and then buy more stuff from you, broadly right?

So how's that going? I know that Malta has had almost a billion from the EU and it looks a lot nicer, the roads are lovely now, but what's the return on that? Did it/will it work?

If you keep enlarging you sort of never find out, but if you stick with the current members does the annual budget after 2020 go down, given the poor ones should be kicking on?

I think this goes to the route of the Brexiteer argument which states why should we pay anything to trade? It's funny how Greeks aside, the Germans don't seem to mind. Admittledly they have the luxury of having a currency which is devalued by all the poor countries, which we don't have.

As an aside, one of the taunts from the Brexiteers to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg is, 'you advocated joining the euro' as if the euro has gone down the toilet - No I'm not saying it hasn't had it's problems, but I checked the rates back when it was launched and a £ was worth 1.80 and it has gradually declined since then through 1.60 for the first few years, to 1.08 during the last crash, to it's lofty height of 1.13 now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 11:30 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 11:32
I agree wholeheartedly DW, but you lost all credibility at the first 'boarder'.

NI is still divided on sectarian grounds, politically and geographically. Paramilitaries are still there and it wouldn't take much for things to flare up again. If the British Govt ever was seen as a neutral party by the Republicans, the CON/DUP alliance has scuppered that. The DUP is the problem, they are:
1. Unionists above all else, so although they say they don't want a hard border with the south, they will live with it over anything that looks like a border in the Irish Sea.
2. Pro-Hard Brexit, so no Single Market or Customs Union thanks.
3. In hock to some mysterious funders who may well be interested in stirring things up.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 11:35
I think it comes down to where you draw your boundary. By the same argument London could say "well we're not paying you (rest of UK)." The only thing is there is a current political boundary around the UK and London does not exist as a political entity.

The problem is that that boundary makes us a world wide bit part player when compared to entities like the EU, USA, China, Russia and India.

Through the EU we have a way of continuing that national level identity AND continuing to be part of something on a world wide scale. As just the UK we are accepting retirement.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 11:48
The simple answer to your question Woodpecker is 'Germany'. The Germans are the biggest net contributor to the EU and have done very well out of it thank you. They sell a lot of stuff to other members under favorable conditions. Their membership of the Eurozone means their prices are lower than they would otherwise be.

Similarly we have benefited greatly from EU membership. We might have benefited from being in the Eurozone back when the pound was worth Ä1:70 but at Ä1:10 probably not.

As Europe is a finite size, there's a limit to the enlargement of the EU which we're getting close to. Aside from Turkey all the other current candidates add up to very little. The economic merits of Turkey joining are debatable, but politically as a bulwark against Islamists and totalitarianism, I think we may have missed the boat!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 12:19 by jayeatman.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 12:39
Quote:
shipwrecked
Man from LA,
I've heard many arguments projecting the UK after Brexit that predict economic doom and gloom but to predict a return to violence in Ireland and blaming it on Brexit is just extreme, I'm not saying violence wont return but the seeds for the Ireland problem were started over 300 years ago.

Your post just sounds like a mini project fear.

As I suggested earlier it seems to me there will be a "Great British compromise" the settlement figure seems a perfect example of this.

I get that Brexit won't make us a wealthy nation short term but you assume that the economy was the the only factor affecting voting, I think you are wrong on that one. Long term, in or out of the EU our wealth will be decided not by who we trade with but how productive we are.

There has been no investment by successive governments in solutions for stalling productivity, that has to change, we have a chance to do that now and Brexit has highlighted it.

The problem with government is that no government plans any further ahead than 5 years, simply because investing huge sums of money for 5 years for future prosperity won't get you voted in when year 6 comes along! Everyone want immediate success and prosperity.

Are Germany or France going to sacrifice their nations prosperity for the long term good of Greece, Spain, Portugal or the UK? I don't think so as the instigators wouldn't get re-elected.

You would need a new style of government to do this. European countries don't all have identical needs because each country is different in geography and resources. One size doesn't fit all and altruism doesn't exist.

Smaller collectives of countries with similar needs and goals probably have a future, but the currently the EU is too big.

Your prognosis requires worst case scenario for every challenge you listed, that simply won't happen.


I know you don't like actual sources in newspapers (as they disprove your points) but:

[www.theguardian.com]


To think that the UK Govt taking sides again (with the DUP) and checkpoints coming back won't affect the fragile political balance in Northern Ireland is just not credible, you only have to read up on what helped bring relative peace to NI to know this. And to say it started 300 years ago is wilfully ignoring the point that it's been relatively peaceful for the last 20 years (certainly more peaceful than the 30 years before that).

Every time anyone points out these problems that have to be dealt with, instead of actual factual answers, you get the lazy 'project fear' BS, yet there will be no deals with the EU until the Ireland border (amongst other things) is sorted out (no credible answers from you I notice).

As for assuming that Brexit was all about the economy, where did I say that? I could equally say you assume Brexit was all about immigration.

Saying our wealth will be decided by how productive we are and not who we trade with, *if there is no trade deal then the amount of goods we sell will be reduced severely, meaning it will not matter how productive we are. Reduced trade and immigration will lower productivity*. A sixth-form economics student would know that.

The worst case scenarios will happen unless people who champion Brexit can find ways to stop them and so far, yourself, substitute, Davies, Gove, Johnson et al have no solutions to them, just obfuscation and shouting 'PROJECT FEAR' at non-believers.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 13:20
I was commenting on links to articles which were just random with no comment.


Where did you mention the economy well here actually:

Quote:
Man from LA
no answers to why the rest of us should have austerity for at least 20 years (after we have left)

Where did I mention immigration? I didn't. You just assumed, I pointed out our economy needed to improve productivity whether in or out of the EU.

As for Ireland, did you read the article, it points out there could be problems if there was a hard border. The government aren't proposing that at all.

I don't pretend to have the answers and have said that I believe the whole Brexit issue will be a compromise solution, not as you seem to believe 'worse case scenario' solutions.

To do so is being alarmist as opposed to realistic. To predict disaster at every turn is inviting fear, it is unnecessary.

I didn't do 6th form economics but I did live, work and had a business in France and Belgium so these are not simply armchair comments.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 13:28
Quote:
woodpecker
...the Germans don't seem to mind.

They do mind and they're very reactionary to any suggestion of an increase. Economically they could pick up Britain's lost contributions easily and then we wouldn't even need to be discussing money.

Quote:
woodpecker
As an aside, one of the taunts from the Brexiteers to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg is, 'you advocated joining the euro' as if the euro has gone down the toilet - No I'm not saying it hasn't had it's problems, but I checked the rates back when it was launched and a £ was worth 1.80 and it has gradually declined since then through 1.60 for the first few years, to 1.08 during the last crash, to it's lofty height of 1.13 now.

Isn't the problem with being in the Euro not the exchange rate but the constraints of being able to devalue to make yourself competitive. You become a hostage of external factors.

(It's actually probably not a bad metaphor for how it could be a benefit to be outside the EU as a whole- lack of constraint).

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 13:30
Quote:
DanWiley
You can't just label everything you don't want to hear "project fear".
You... obviously haven't been following politics for the last 18 months.
Acknowledging things you don't want to here is Sooo last decade...

Over here we call it "project fear" Stateside they call it "fake news"



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 13:31 by Which Tyler.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 13:41
Quote:
DanWiley
Or there is a border and I can quite easily see that inflaming unionists and nationalists, many of whom will quite happily inflame each other and whilst we can hope that they won't start shooting each other and blowing people up again it is just hope as far as I can see. It certainly seems a possibility.
You can't just label everything you don't want to hear "project fear".

If you look at this coldly, people are appealing to violence and terrorism to realise a political end.

Terrorism and violence are wrong. Terrorism and violence because of a virtual or real border is wrong. That's not the governments fault and we shouldn't be making policy based on terrorism.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 13:57
You've got it backwards. We shouldn't be making policy that is likely to lead to terrorism.

To say any course of action is fine, despite the fact it might lead to terrorism, because we don't deal with terrorists is just unbelievably conceited.

"We created this problem, but its not our fault as we don't deal with terrorists. Terrorism is bad."

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 14:21
Quote:
DanWiley
You've got it backwards. We shouldn't be making policy that is likely to lead to terrorism.
To say any course of action is fine, despite the fact it might lead to terrorism, because we don't deal with terrorists is just unbelievably conceited.


The terrorism is unjustified not the policy. The terrorist should be feel the force of the law not see it changed to suit them.

Just think of it the other way round: Terrorism is bad. We will commit terrorism unless you change policy. Therefore you will change the law.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 14:29
Was it you or shipwrecked who accused me of having no empathy with people? If its you that's extraordinary. Your advocating putting a population in a situation so bad that they tolerate terrorism (the overwhelming majority aren't engaged in it), but when those people say "you created this" you say we don't deal with the terrorist they you are not and we created (an environment we knew allowed them to flourish).

What's your next policy? Income tax of 80% and when -some- people riot say to all "its not the tax that's the problem its your reaction to it."

Edit:

Surely if you have a policy you know might incite terrorism you must consider it very carefully and not just say it's fine because terrorism is bad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 14:36 by DanWiley.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 14:52
Quote:
DanWiley
Your advocating putting a population in a situation so bad that they tolerate terrorism (the overwhelming majority aren't engaged in it), but when those people say "you created this" you say we don't deal with the terrorist they you are not and we created (an environment we knew allowed them to flourish).

Noone has to tolerate terrorism and a border is not a good reason to carry out terrorism (which is I think was your point).

Likewise sticking a border in the Irish sea between the UK and the UK is just as likely to inflame tensions. Just for the 'other side' (and doesn't have the historic visual imagery of the checkpoints).

Nevertheless the UK is clear that there will be no physical border on its side. If the EU wishes to install border institutions on the south side, then that is an EU matter.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 14:56
Quote:
DanWiley
Was it you or shipwrecked who accused me of having no empathy with people?

I'm offended by that Dan, quote me via the board, I'll stand by my words and apologise if I'm wrong but please don't stab in the dark!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 15:14
Really? I thought we were supposed to be the snowflakes. Sorry, I don't recall who said it and I don't intend to trawl back through the last 100 posts to find out. I guess we can all assume it wasn't you and move on.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 15:32
Quote:
DanWiley
Really? I thought we were supposed to be the snowflakes.

What does that mean?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 16:16
I think it's a bit fragile to get offended over someone asking whether one person or another said something. It would have been slightly worse had I actually said it was you, but even then it would have been easily dealt with by say "I didn't say that, I think you mean..."

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
29 November, 2017 16:28
Quote:
DanWiley
I think it's a bit fragile to get offended over someone asking whether one person or another said something. It would have been slightly worse had I actually said it was you, but even then it would have been easily dealt with by say "I didn't say that, I think you mean..."

OK you may be right, but it does get tedious when posters misquote for whatever reason. Brexit discussion seems to get very emotive.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 09:11
On the divorce bill; currently we pay around 8.6bn net per year. For that we get all of the benefits of being in it i.e. single market customs, union etc (I concede the downsides).

Now we are paying ~£50Bn just to get out, but we havent secured any of the benefits, except maybe indicating we want to be part of certain bodies like Erasmus,

That includes paying our membership commitments up to end 2020, for the access element, even though we leave June 2019, so we have already paid for our transitional deal for ~18 months without having one (~20Bn in total including pre 2019).

Admittedly we aren't paying this up front, and we could withold in the future, but still it sounds a bit like not having our cake or eating it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/11/2017 09:16 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 11:55
Quote:
woodpecker
but still it sounds a bit like not having our cake or eating it.

Sounds a lot like it:

But, but
'We will have control over our borders' (except Ireland obvs, nothing to do with us).
LIKE WE ALWAYS DID
and
'We will have our sovereignty and make our own laws' (well, not MPs obvs, they can't even be trusted with secret reports).
LIKE WE ALWAYS DID

Did I forget anything?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 12:25
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
woodpecker
but still it sounds a bit like not having our cake or eating it.

Sounds a lot like it:

But, but
'We will have control over our borders' (except Ireland obvs, nothing to do with us).
LIKE WE ALWAYS DID
and
'We will have our sovereignty and make our own laws' (well, not MPs obvs, they can't even be trusted with secret reports).
LIKE WE ALWAYS DID

Did I forget anything?

I think you covered it, I've been looking on line to see what sort of vacuum cleaners in excess of 900 watts I will be able to purchase after we leave, it's quite exciting.

Fingers crossed I will be able to buy it in June 2019 and don't have to wait until the end of any transitional deal.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 13:08
You're forgetting the main benefit of leaving - soon you won't have to click "Dismiss" on the cookie notice on every website you visit!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 14:06
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
You're forgetting the main benefit of leaving - soon you won't have to click "Dismiss" on the cookie notice on every website you visit!

I didn't even know about this, it's amazing what you can get for £50Bn these days!

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 14:08
Private Eye (Sm6)


[twitter.com]



[twitter.com]

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 21:04
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
You're forgetting the main benefit of leaving - soon you won't have to click "Dismiss" on the cookie notice on every website you visit!

Iím looking forward to it taking longer to get through immigration and eating chlorinated chicken and prices rocketing for food.

Oh and bananas being the correct shape.

J

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
30 November, 2017 22:31
Itís all bollocks .

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 08:04
Quote:
BathPatriot
Itís all bollocks .

Interesting, you can write bollocks on here...

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 08:11
Obviously the word is acceptable in politics or perhaps bribery?

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 13:44
Quote:
BathPatriot
Itís all bollocks .

and very exhausting... More heat than light is still being generated by the commentators, forecasters and speculators. I don't know how they keep it up. I look forward to moving on from fear, anger and frustration to creativity...

https://agileaustraliablog.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/screenshot-63.jpg



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 14:14
Cool, so after a load of bluster, noise and nonsense - we'll end up at the same level as before?

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 15:09
Quote:
hasta
Cool, so after a load of bluster, noise and nonsense - we'll end up at the same level as before?

The diagram illustrates the emotions experienced by individuals as they go through the various stages of change. Such models are mostly associated with organsational change but do provide a useful framework for an event such as Brexit. It's up to the individual to decide where s/he ends up; some will move through the curve and embrace the change others will not and thus reject it...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 15:18
Yeah, but it makes no judgement on the idea that the change is good. People will go through the same cycle when someone dies.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 15:27
All very well but what is the time span between stage 1 and stage 4 as a golden oldie will I make stage 4? sad smiley



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 16:02 by CoochieCoo.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 15:33
Quote:
hasta
Yeah, but it makes no judgement on the idea that the change is good.

Quite - for some people the change [e.g. Brexit] will be perceived as a good thing, for others it will not. The commentators, forecasters and speculators on both sides will argue such...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 15:47
Quote:
CoochieCoo
All very well but what is the time span between stage 1 and stage 4 as a golden oldie will I make stage 4? 😟

I really couldn't say CC but I'm sure your enthusiasm and commitment to all things BB&W will remain...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 16:35
I wonder where the likes of Farage, Rhys-Mogg, or Borris are on that graph... from the 1973 referrendum



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 16:36 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 16:48
Of course the New beginning could be staying in the EU!! Then Leavers would have to go through the whole process.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 17:29
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
hasta
Yeah, but it makes no judgement on the idea that the change is good.

Quite - for some people the change [e.g. Brexit] will be perceived as a good thing, for others it will not. The commentators, forecasters and speculators on both sides will argue such...

Of course, this is a good point. We all have different values amd I guess your impression will depend where tou stand. To say that something is objectively good or bad is tricky for simple things, let alone complex issues that touch peoples lives in many ways.

Nevertheless, haven't we had this graph and this exact same discussion before?

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
01 December, 2017 21:51
Itís all a load of Bollocks.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
03 December, 2017 10:15
Survation, the most accurate pollster at the 2017 General Election, have done a new poll for the Mail on Sunday showing a 16 point lead for a third EU referendum (after 1975 and 2016), the first time any pollster has recorded backing for it. This is why Farage and Co want to leave with no deal asap, because they know the more people learn the truth about what leaving entails (and who funded it), the more people will want to stay in the EU. What some people seem to forget is democracy didn't end on 23rd June 2016, and there is no law saying there cannot be a 3rd referendum either now (before we have left) or in the future (to re-join if we leave). Seems people are slowly but surely realising they value their own standard of living over 'creativity'. Who'd a thought it?


[twitter.com]


N.B as well as people generally changing their minds on voting to stay in the EU, the demographics of voters shows pro-leave voters tended to be older and, therefore, dying out at a greater rate than pro-staying voters who tended to be younger. When the future EU vote takes place, if not under this Govt then under the next pro-EU Govt that is voted in, both factors will be decisive in such a relatively close vote.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2017 10:50 by Man from LA.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 10:23
I hear the Royal Family have finally revealed their EU sympathies by allowing Prince Harry to marry the German Chancellorís daughter.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 11:04
UK Gov is not doing a good job of leading this Brexit, of communicating our position either internally or externally, and of giving the population confidence in our negotiations.

However this can't be an excuse for going back into a world where we remain in the EU but completely subservient to the super smug in Brussels. Our rebate would go, we'd never be believed when we argued any position, we'd have to listen to Dan Wiley say 'I told you so' for ever and ever and ever and ever ....

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 11:48
Hearing that a compromise has been conceded for NI by us. Sounds like we accepted a special situation on the island of Ireland such as convergence of law between the North and the South, in other words SM and CU retained on the island? Will the Scots and the Welsh ask for the same?



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 11:52
Will the DUP accept it is probably a more pressing issue...

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 12:02
Can't see the DUP or large elements of the Conservative party accepting this.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 12:31
Perhaps we will agree a special situation for all regions of the U.K. ..............
............oh wait a minute! winking smiley



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 12:32
"We'd have to listen to Dan Wiley say 'I told you so' for ever and ever and ever and ever"

In fairness to me, I very rarely say I told you so, despite opportunity.

I would agree, not going through with Brexit would be massively embarrassing. That's not a reason to go through with it though. I expect that's why we'll see a gradually stepped come down towards "practically being in the EU". Followed by May, Davis et al being used a scapegoats.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 12:34
I really can't see this being voted through Parliament (this is only a fall back if no trade deal is agreed) as MP's will not vote through the (virtual) break-up of the UK, especially given that it would require the votes from the MP's of the Conservative and Unionist party. The only answer is the whole UK stays in the single market.

You'd have thought that in the 40 years that these people who have been trying to overturn the 1975 referendum result, they'd have thought of answers to these problems that *they* have created instead of doing it on the hoof.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 13:04
The problem is that the only practical way to leave the EU is the complete hard brexit, WTO etc. The issue is that it would be pretty painful. THe governmnt knows that although over 50% voted for Brexit only a minority of those would really want that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2017 13:20 by woodpecker.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 14:40
If Teresa May is weak enough and stupid enough to concede that NI will stay in the Customs Union then the Scots and London will follow suit, and the DUP will side with Labour to bring this government down. She can't be that dumb, surely ?

Welcom comrade Corbyn. Where's that website to convert sterling to Bitcoin ?

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
04 December, 2017 14:50
Now that the UK Govt have guaranteed that NI will not leave the Single Market, it is almost certain that the whole of the UK will not leave as there would need to be a hard border between GB and NI to fulfil the Single Market criteria. This would mean NI would face trade barriers into the UK's own single market which is by far it's largest market. May can't say this because of the quit-at-all-costs element in her party though. If that element do nothing then a soft brexit would (probably) be voted through, if they try and bring down May then that could mean an election and possible Labour Govt, and a soft brexit also.

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