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Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
06 December, 2017 23:53
I was responding to CC telling the Brexiteers to get their act together for the umpteenth time...

I quite agree, but it was Phillip Hammond who rejected discussions about the end state. It's no great surprise - more than half the cabinet and more than half the Brexit committee are opposed to Brexit.

It needed a government who believed in Brexit - yes, there would be differences but they would be reconcilable. For the majority of this cabinet that are not reconcilable and they'll never be able to contribute to a better Brexit outcome in any meaningful sense.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 02:41
Quote:
Substitute
I was responding to CC telling the Brexiteers to get their act together for the umpteenth time...
I quite agree, but it was Phillip Hammond who rejected discussions about the end state. It's no great surprise - more than half the cabinet and more than half the Brexit committee are opposed to Brexit.

It needed a government who believed in Brexit - yes, there would be differences but they would be reconcilable. For the majority of this cabinet that are not reconcilable and they'll never be able to contribute to a better Brexit outcome in any meaningful sense.

I agree the policy differences at government level appear irreconcilable. Which means no agreement with the EU which means WTO rules for a small country in the new world of an isolationist US, an imperial China and an expansionist Russia. Not vastly encouraging.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2017 04:31 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 07:56
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Substitute
I was responding to CC telling the Brexiteers to get their act together for the umpteenth time...
I quite agree, but it was Phillip Hammond who rejected discussions about the end state. It's no great surprise - more than half the cabinet and more than half the Brexit committee are opposed to Brexit.

It needed a government who believed in Brexit - yes, there would be differences but they would be reconcilable. For the majority of this cabinet that are not reconcilable and they'll never be able to contribute to a better Brexit outcome in any meaningful sense.

I agree the policy differences at government level appear irreconcilable. Which means no agreement with the EU which means WTO rules...

A premature judgement jtf, it remains to be seen whether there will be an agreement with the EU...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 08:13
There will be no agreement while the DUP and Irish Govt hold the trump cards.

They haven't agreed for 300 years!

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 08:42
Differences in the cabinet are extrapolated amongst the brexiteers at large. There are umpteen variations of brexit from the go whistle brexit to paying our commitments, from cliff edge brexit to staying in the SM and CU like Norway.The reconciliability is going to be a mammoth task if not impossible! It appears to me that it is the same on this board!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 08:43
Quote:
Boldangrey
There will be no agreement while the DUP and Irish Govt hold the trump cards. They haven't agreed for 300 years!

They did manage to conclude the Good Friday agreement but you're right BnG, it did take a long time...

Corrected following TBT post below, I am anxious to avoid "fake posts"



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2017 09:14 by Clarkey3k.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 08:44
DUP was the only party to oppose the Good Friday agreement...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 08:48
"It needed a government who believed in Brexit "

Surely the fact that we can't find such a government, and the closest thing we can find to it is an absolute shower*, suggests that perhaps it really isn't a good idea.

* it's pretty brave of you to try and defend DD, but listen to him, its an embarrassment.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 09:04
I remember the first few days / weeks after the referendum and Cameron's resignation. Brexit supporting politicians ran to the hills crying that it wasn't their responsibility to come up with a policy to exit the EU. They had no idea. So others had to step up.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 09:55
Quote:
Substitute
I was responding to CC telling the Brexiteers to get their act together for the umpteenth time...
I quite agree, but it was Phillip Hammond who rejected discussions about the end state. It's no great surprise - more than half the cabinet and more than half the Brexit committee are opposed to Brexit.

It needed a government who believed in Brexit - yes, there would be differences but they would be reconcilable. For the majority of this cabinet that are not reconcilable and they'll never be able to contribute to a better Brexit outcome in any meaningful sense.


It was Theresa May that rejected discussions about the end-state, not Hammond.



[www.telegraph.co.uk]


It's not enough anymore for people who *still* champion Brexit to keep trying to blame non-believers (realists) for this unfolding debacle. Watching the Chris Grayling mauling by the chap on BBC Breakfast this morning (watching Grayling rip off his microphones at the end was funny), you can see that obfuscation and blaming everyone else won't cut it anymore.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 10:38
Grayling on BBC Breakfast this morning would have reduced me to a screaming heap! Think Charlie (sorry) whathisname did as well as he could. But of course, that's why Grayling was wheeled out- he is good at denying facts.

I'd like to know who told Theresa May et al that the DUP were ok with the proposed agreement on Sunday and why did her team believe them!!! As said above, DUP were the only political group in Northern Ireland not to agree to the Good Friday agreement which should have told him/her something about their mentality - they don't do compromise (amongst other rational thought out 'social liberal' intelligent views). Apart from the Brexit lark, I do wonder if a snap general election isn't hoving over the horizon within a few months.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 10:56
Quote:
DanWiley
"It needed a government who believed in Brexit "
Surely the fact that we can't find such a government, and the closest thing we can find to it is an absolute shower*, suggests that perhaps it really isn't a good idea.

* it's pretty brave of you to try and defend DD, but listen to him, its an embarrassment.

I wouldn't defend David Davis... He originally joined Farage's GO campaign, he was not involved or privy to the campaign that won the referendum. He might be thoughtful about such things but he was the wrong choice and now he's out of his depth.

It was another misstep by the Tories but I suppose May thought that those involved with the Leave campaign were toxic for that role.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 11:03
Quote:
Man from LA


It was Theresa May that rejected discussions about the end-state, not Hammond.

Excellent... Even more proof this government needed a leader committed to Brexit.

Quote:
Man from LA
It's not enough anymore for people who *still* champion Brexit to keep trying to blame non-believers (realists) for this unfolding debacle.

I think it is... I think it's becoming very clear they have little influence on the Brexit strategy (as you mentioned above) and they cannot act without getting the approval of majority Remainers.

You try acting in an environment where to realise your objectives you have to get the approval of a load of people who think your objectives and whom once you convince, will then be target to the same criticisms as you.

There aren't many people, good enough to overcome that kind of inertia, anywhere in the world.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 11:03
Did you guys on here who voted to leave expect this level of difficulty in leaving the EU, which we have barely started, is this a surprise to you?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 11:12
Getting the 27 to agree was always going to be difficult without throwing in the DUP and the Republic.

Impossible task. Time runs out. Hard Brexit, then folk will say 'Now just a minute...'

Not what I want, but want I can see happening.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 11:18
Quote:
woodpecker
Did you guys on here who voted to leave expect this level of difficulty in leaving the EU, which we have barely started, is this a surprise to you?

No surprise at all, the EU has to make it as difficult and painful for the UK as possible to deter others. Also they've never liked us very much either.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 11:35
"the EU has to make it as difficult and painful for the UK as possible to deter others. "

Really? What have they actually done? I mean things that you wouldn't expect someone to do if you said "I don't want o be in your club anymore and that's going to make me a competitor."


"Hard Brexit, then folk will say 'Now just a minute...' "

Who will say this?

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 12:19
Quote:
woodpecker
Did you guys on here who voted to leave expect this level of difficulty in leaving the EU, which we have barely started, is this a surprise to you?

To answer the 1st part of your question, yes, and the 2nd part, no...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 12:48
When is the film Carry on Governing coming out because this farce is just unbelievable - fully expect to see Joan Sims, Sid James and Brian Rix on the government benches

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 13:57
I expected it to be difficult and I expected the EU to play it pretty much exactly as they have.

The commission does not need negotiate (indeed cannot) whereas our government, even if it had had an endgame meeting, would still be subject to the negotiations of those involved. One is set up as unable to compromise, the other is a result of compromise - guess which side will compromise.

Of course, we should have had the belief and self-assurance to rubbish that but instead we have a government that doesn't even believe in the red lines it sets and has a crisis of confidence since it yet again, failed to understand the public mood.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 14:54
Substitute, you should have taken Davis's position because it is pretty clear he didn't expect the EU to be so well organised and prepared or if he did and decided not to match up then that is crass stupidity and gross negligence as opposed to mere total incompetence

And for May to think he was up to the job, well she continually manages to live down to our ever descending expectations

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 14:57
We could perhaps follow the Zimbabwe approach, does anyopne have the army's phone number?

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 16:09
This whole thing is going exactly as I expected it too.....!!

I would rather we left and went to WTO rules........or at least made sure it looked that way.

Just reading Mr Varoufakis's book which is firstly very readable and also extremely informative about the whole creation of the EU.....going back to 1868 with Germany's invasion of France and Bismark's Blood and Steel speech.....French blood will be split with German steel.

Until Germany put a government together nothing, of consequence, will happen AT ALL.

Brussels is fighting for its continued existence in its current cosseted form......of course they are following the usual format with nothing ever being agreed until the 59 minute of the 11th hour.

Of the 180 (roughly) public companies we are invested their big concern.........well ahead of Brexit which they could consider to be a sideshow for greedy useless politicians.....ON ALL SIDES......is firstly the unwinding of Quantative Easing in the USA, the UK and ultimately the EU, secondly the unstable financial position becoming clearer in China and thirdly the erratic behaviour of the USA (under Trump)

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 16:32
That post BSJ reads just like Eric Morecombe's piano concerto effort, all the right words (possibly) not necessarily in the right order - been on the Xmas sherry a bit early?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 16:49
Quote:
gaz59
Substitute, you should have taken Davis's position because it is pretty clear he didn't expect the EU to be so well organised and prepared or if he did and decided not to match up then that is crass stupidity and gross negligence as opposed to mere total incompetence
And for May to think he was up to the job, well she continually manages to live down to our ever descending expectations

I don't think the EU is so well organised or prepared. It just created a set of rules and then left it to the commission who has no flexibility to negotiate.

We shouldn't have negotiated with them on these terms, because they are not negotiating.

What we had was likely a PM, and a Brexit minister who felt they had to achieve something to maintain their support.

The commission has no such difficulties, it doesn't care about popular support and ot would not matter because it is only doing what it is told by the council. If it goes badly, the countries take the flack. If it goes well the EU takes the credit.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 17:20
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
gaz59
Substitute, you should have taken Davis's position because it is pretty clear he didn't expect the EU to be so well organised and prepared or if he did and decided not to match up then that is crass stupidity and gross negligence as opposed to mere total incompetence
And for May to think he was up to the job, well she continually manages to live down to our ever descending expectations

I don't think the EU is so well organised or prepared. It just created a set of rules and then left it to the commission who has no flexibility to negotiate.

We shouldn't have negotiated with them on these terms, because they are not negotiating.

What we had was likely a PM, and a Brexit minister who felt they had to achieve something to maintain their support.

The commission has no such difficulties, it doesn't care about popular support and ot would not matter because it is only doing what it is told by the council. If it goes badly, the countries take the flack. If it goes well the EU takes the credit.

You don't think the EU is organised or well-prepared? This is the same EU that has got everything it has asked for? And the same EU that has done nearly 50 impact assessments on Brexit? That's nearly 50 more than the incompetents in the UK Govt have done btw. They also know what they want post-brexit and have had a consistent stand-point on the Irish border from the start, unlike Davis and his ilk. Trying to paint the EU as the ones who are unprepared is risible.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 18:49
As a UK citizen living in the UK I can tell you the EU is definitely negotiating on citizens rights and I do not like it and nor do the 1.2 million others in a similar position! It could make life very difficult.

There's not much to negotiate on the Irish border. Show us real proposals or get out, basically. None of this "Magic technology will do it" nonsense please. The divorce bill has come down dramatically from what was first mooted so, again, EU has negotiated.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 21:13
So we are told by BSJ that 180 or so companies think that Brexit is a side show, want unwinding of quantative easing etc. I frankly think that the ordinary man in the street is more concerned of paying his bills, his job and the future of his kids and this brexit fiasco that most if us predicted is very worrying indeed!

The 180 companies are also worried about Trump and yet Brexiteers are relying on this guy to prop up a post brexit UK! Good grief!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2017 21:23 by CoochieCoo.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
07 December, 2017 21:45
Quote:
Man from LA
You don't think the EU is organised or well-prepared? This is the same EU that has got everything it has asked for? And the same EU that has done nearly 50 impact assessments on Brexit?

Do we get to see these impact statements then as we’ve (partly) paid for them ?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 02:25
Quote:
Man from LA

You don't think the EU is organised or well-prepared? This is the same EU that has got everything it has asked for? And the same EU that has done nearly 50 impact assessments on Brexit? That's nearly 50 more than the incompetents in the UK Govt have done btw. They also know what they want post-brexit and have had a consistent stand-point on the Irish border from the start, unlike Davis and his ilk. Trying to paint the EU as the ones who are unprepared is risible.

No, I don't think they are. They have more resource and are capable of doing more paper-work. But in terms of preparation, they havent had to do any meaningful preparation because there is no flexibility in their conditions.

I do agree with DD on one thing, quantified impact assessments are pointless and will only drive bad action. Far better to spend the time hiring a physicist and mapping out the interdependencies...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 07:17
You agree that the reports he said were in excruciating detail aren't worth doing when they turn out not to have been done.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 07:52
Well TM has got a deal to go on to the next phase. Citizens rights under Union law, open border in Ireland and divorce settlement. Now we go on to trade and security and more compromise. The devil will be in the detail but kudos to the PM for working tirelessly to get to the next phase.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 09:11
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Well TM has got a deal to go on to the next phase. Citizens rights under Union law, open border in Ireland and divorce settlement. Now we go on to trade and security and more compromise. The devil will be in the detail but kudos to the PM for working tirelessly to get to the next phase.

And very well done to CoochieCoo for making the first positive comment on a thread which is now 7 pages long.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 09:17
I'm hoping once we agree a transitional deal the £ will hit 1.20. Currently 1.148

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 09:41
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
Man from LA

You don't think the EU is organised or well-prepared? This is the same EU that has got everything it has asked for? And the same EU that has done nearly 50 impact assessments on Brexit? That's nearly 50 more than the incompetents in the UK Govt have done btw. They also know what they want post-brexit and have had a consistent stand-point on the Irish border from the start, unlike Davis and his ilk. Trying to paint the EU as the ones who are unprepared is risible.

No, I don't think they are. They have more resource and are capable of doing more paper-work. But in terms of preparation, they havent had to do any meaningful preparation because there is no flexibility in their conditions.

I do agree with DD on one thing, quantified impact assessments are pointless and will only drive bad action. Far better to spend the time hiring a physicist and mapping out the interdependencies...

Whether they have more resources is irrelevant, the UK has had enough time and has enough intelligent and resourceful people to do the impact assessments, why are you talking your country down? The real reason you think assessments on the impact of Brexit on the NHS, financial services, imports/exports etc are pointless is the same reason as Davis's- they would show the economic vandalism that it would cause to the UK and destroy any reason to quit the EU in an instant. If they showed that leaving the EU would improve our lot, you wouldn't be saying they were pointless (despite anything to the opposite you may say).

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 09:57
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Well TM has got a deal to go on to the next phase. Citizens rights under Union law, open border in Ireland and divorce settlement. Now we go on to trade and security and more compromise. The devil will be in the detail but kudos to the PM for working tirelessly to get to the next phase.

The reason it has taken so long and why she has had to work so hard is because of the unrealistic 'red lines' that she insisted on (and has now relented on) in the first place, and invoking Article 50 too soon (not to mention holding the election). It's all her own making.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 10:30
Yay for citizens' rights. Should have been finished on day 1 though.

A pay-off within 10% of most predictions. Could easily have been finished in week 1 though.

A bar of fudge instead of an Irish border. Erm... What?

On that fudge, am I to understand that there will be a soft border between NI and I, and no border between NI and RoUk.

Sothose dastardly Polish people just need to fly into Dublin, and take a bus Northwards before disseminating themselves throughout the UK. Chlorinated chicken on the other hand, flies into Belfast before being driven Southwards and distributed to KFCs Europe-wide.

I'm so glad we have such a strong and stable leadership to negotiate this genius plan for us.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 10:46
The rights of UK citizens living in EU to continue to move and work between the various states has not been protected in this deal. So, the media are wrong in how they are reporting this.

Re Irish border. Said Polish immigrant will still have to flash his/her passport or other documents at the port or airport to get from NI to the mainland. I assume anyway! Or perhaps you don't need to show documentation for the ferries... interesting.

The UK has agreed to maintain regulations aligned to EU regulations. So you won't be importing chlorinated chicken so there's no risk of any crossing into the EU.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 11:31
[quote CoochieCoo]Well TM has got a deal to go on to the next phase. Citizens rights under Union law, open border in Ireland and divorce settlement. Now we go on to trade and security and more compromise. The devil will be in the detail but kudos to the PM for working tirelessly to get to the next phase.[/quotte)

+1. and not helped by being criticised at every step by those who think they could have done a whole lot better which I think is highly doubtful

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:19
"On that fudge, am I to understand that there will be a soft border between NI and I, and no border between NI and RoUk. "

The only option I think that leaves left is to have regulatory alignment with the EU across the UK.

Which presumably won't please those that did this to themselves on the ground of sovereignty or some such.

Nor will it please those that did this because they dreamt of trade deals with others.

As you say, it doesn't do much for those that did it because of Jonny Foreigner was coming over here and working hard for little money.

Given that it does beg the question why we don't join the EEA?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:29
CITIZENS’ RIGHTS
What it says: “The specified date should be the time of the UK’s withdrawal.”
What it means: Any EU citizen living in UK on March 29, 2019, will be allowed to stay in the UK indefinitely with the same rights they have at the moment. The same will apply for UK citizens living in the EU. In addition the withdrawal agreement says that legal partners and children of those citizens will have the same rights, even if they were not living in the UK/EU at the time of Brexit. Future children of those citizens will also be covered. However, significantly, wider family members (such as parents of citizens) are not covered under the agreement. In addition, couples who are not legally married will not both be covered under the agreement unless they marry before Brexit day.

So basically you can go and live anywhere in the EU up until March 2019 and stay there forever

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:47
Assuming that works both ways then - I need to get Ali down the aisle in the next 16 months



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:48
Quote:
woodpecker
CITIZENS’ RIGHTS
What it says: “The specified date should be the time of the UK’s withdrawal.”
What it means: Any EU citizen living in UK on March 29, 2019, will be allowed to stay in the UK indefinitely with the same rights they have at the moment. The same will apply for UK citizens living in the EU. In addition the withdrawal agreement says that legal partners and children of those citizens will have the same rights, even if they were not living in the UK/EU at the time of Brexit. Future children of those citizens will also be covered. However, significantly, wider family members (such as parents of citizens) are not covered under the agreement. In addition, couples who are not legally married will not both be covered under the agreement unless they marry before Brexit day.

So basically you can go and live anywhere in the EU up until March 2019 and stay there forever

Where did you get that (url) please?

Here's the "Joint Technical Note" about the agreement. Scroll down to the bottom past all the green lights. Other matters to be dealt with in stage 2 include:

Quote:
The following other matters were raised by the UK, but were outside the scope of the EU mandate for the first phase of the negotiations.
the continuing protection of rights for UK nationals covered by the Withdrawal
Agreement who move after the specified date to take up residence in another
Member State

Also doesn't cover UK nationals who cross borders for work.

edit - forgot the url! [ec.europa.eu]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2017 12:49 by Trev's Big Tackle.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:50
Quote:
woodpecker

So basically you can go and live anywhere in the EU up until March 2019 and stay there forever

Dont you maintain the same rights you have at that date. I.e. if you've been there two months that isn't a great amount but if it's five years or more you're pretty much untouchable.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:54
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
Quote:
woodpecker
CITIZENS’ RIGHTS
What it says: “The specified date should be the time of the UK’s withdrawal.”
What it means: Any EU citizen living in UK on March 29, 2019, will be allowed to stay in the UK indefinitely with the same rights they have at the moment. The same will apply for UK citizens living in the EU. In addition the withdrawal agreement says that legal partners and children of those citizens will have the same rights, even if they were not living in the UK/EU at the time of Brexit. Future children of those citizens will also be covered. However, significantly, wider family members (such as parents of citizens) are not covered under the agreement. In addition, couples who are not legally married will not both be covered under the agreement unless they marry before Brexit day.

So basically you can go and live anywhere in the EU up until March 2019 and stay there forever

Where did you get that (url) please?

Here's the "Joint Technical Note" about the agreement. Scroll down to the bottom past all the green lights. Other matters to be dealt with in stage 2 include:

Quote:
The following other matters were raised by the UK, but were outside the scope of the EU mandate for the first phase of the negotiations.
the continuing protection of rights for UK nationals covered by the Withdrawal
Agreement who move after the specified date to take up residence in another
Member State

Also doesn't cover UK nationals who cross borders for work.

edit - forgot the url! [ec.europa.eu]

I got it from The Times

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:56
Quote:
DanWiley
"
The only option I think that leaves left is to have regulatory alignment with the EU across the UK.

Which presumably won't please those that did this to themselves on the ground of sovereignty or some such.

You're right it doesn't please me as it gives the EU a large incentive not to strike a trade deal.

But it does only apply to those areas crucial to the good Friday agreement (which in the press seems to range from two areas to everything). So the country could still sign a trade deal outside the EU as long as it excludes those areas.

Plus this is not technically the EEA we'd be staying in - it would be the customs union.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:57
Thanks Woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 12:58
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Well TM has got a deal to go on to the next phase. Citizens rights under Union law, open border in Ireland and divorce settlement. Now we go on to trade and security and more compromise. The devil will be in the detail but kudos to the PM for working tirelessly to get to the next phase.

+1. and not helped by being criticised at every step by those who think they could have done a whole lot better which I think is highly doubtful

+1 @CC for May kudos
+1 @BH for TM support.

PS - I posted this at 13.29hr rather than the time indicated above...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2017 13:00 by Clarkey3k.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 13:02
Although it's hard to work out exactly what has been agreed, the fact Nigel Farage isn't happy with it is a good sign

Found this in the independent, lucky Northern Irish:

People born in Northern Ireland will be able to retain their EU citizenship under the deal struck by Theresa May early this morning.

Under an existing agreement between the UK and EU, anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport, which confers EU citizenship because of the Republic’s membership of the EU.

The deal published on Friday says this arrangement will continue, effectively allowing the province’s population to opt in to be EU citizens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2017 13:04 by woodpecker.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 13:17
Lots of convenient fudge to get to the real starting line so as Starmer says, the devil will be in the detail and will be interesting to see the response of the Tory Brexiteers on the benches to a deal that essentially keeps us to the regulations of the EU without any opportunity to influence for almost a decade.

And given the broad scope of the deal, I don't see what prevented this kind of position being reached many months ago and that would have given us so much more time to work on the really tricky stuff - it took Canada 7 years to strike their trade deal!

And on the immigration issue, what is to stop anyone from any one of the 27 EU nations going to Ireland, walking across the 'soft' border and getting a ferry to Scotland or England or will there be passport controls and if so then where? Or am I missing something?

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 13:21
Quote:
gaz59

And on the immigration issue, what is to stop anyone from any one of the 27 EU nations going to Ireland, walking across the 'soft' border and getting a ferry to Scotland or England or will there be passport controls and if so then where? Or am I missing something?

I suppose they could but why would they want to? Without the appropriate paperwork they won't be able to claim benefits, no NHS treatment and would even find getting a job (at a reputable establishment) difficult. Even renting a property could be difficult.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 13:21
Quote:
woodpecker
Although it's hard to work out exactly what has been agreed, the fact Nigel Farage isn't happy with it is a good sign
Found this in the independent, lucky Northern Irish:

People born in Northern Ireland will be able to retain their EU citizenship under the deal struck by Theresa May early this morning.

Under an existing agreement between the UK and EU, anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport, which confers EU citizenship because of the Republic’s membership of the EU.

The deal published on Friday says this arrangement will continue, effectively allowing the province’s population to opt in to be EU citizens.

This isn't a change and really doesn't have anything to do with the UK. Anyone who was born on - or who have a parent or grandparent who were born on - the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship - as per their register of foreign births.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 13:45
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
woodpecker
Although it's hard to work out exactly what has been agreed, the fact Nigel Farage isn't happy with it is a good sign
Found this in the independent, lucky Northern Irish:

People born in Northern Ireland will be able to retain their EU citizenship under the deal struck by Theresa May early this morning.

Under an existing agreement between the UK and EU, anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport, which confers EU citizenship because of the Republic’s membership of the EU.

The deal published on Friday says this arrangement will continue, effectively allowing the province’s population to opt in to be EU citizens.

This isn't a change and really doesn't have anything to do with the UK. Anyone who was born on - or who have a parent or grandparent who were born on - the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship - as per their register of foreign births.

Yes I see what you mean, the UK government (I think ) can't stop any nation giving out passports to British citizens, given we allow dual citizenship.

It would be nice if they offered it to us too.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 13:54
Exactly. Some countries enforce the loss of citizenship if you voluntarily acquire another citizenship (e.g. China/Japan/Norway) but not the UK.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 15:57
Quote:
gaz59

I don't see what prevented this kind of position being reached many months ago and that would have given us so much more time it took Canada 7 years to strike their trade deal.

The reason for Canada taking so long is that a lot of alignment had to be sorted out between the two countries, as the UK is already aligned being a member that sorting out has already been done!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 18:29
Telegraph synopsis!

"At a glance: Key issues - and who has won

Northern Ireland - UK win: Britain has promised to prevent a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In a major breakthrough, Theresa May managed to find a way to satisfy both Dublin and her DUP allies by pledging there would be “no new regulatory barriers”, unless Stormont decides it. However, if Britain can't find a way to guarantee there will not be a hard border, it has promised to observe EU single market rules.

Citizens' rights - EU win: Despite Theresa May’s insistence that the European Court of Justice will no longer have a say in British courts, she was forced to concede it would keep a role, albeit limited to eight years, over citizens’ rights. British judges will make the decisions on any case but will be expected to refer to the ECJ to points of EU law.

Brexit bill - a draw: On the Brexit bill, Britain will keep its rebate until the end of the current EU Budget period but it was forced to detail some of the commitments it is willing to honour, which it did not want to do. The bill will not be paid as a lump sum but as payments fall due, which will make it much harder to calculate the real final figure."



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 22:14
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Telegraph synopsis!
"At a glance: Key issues - and who has won

Northern Ireland - UK win: Britain has promised to prevent a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In a major breakthrough, Theresa May managed to find a way to satisfy both Dublin and her DUP allies by pledging there would be “no new regulatory barriers”, unless Stormont decides it. However, if Britain can't find a way to guarantee there will not be a hard border, it has promised to observe EU single market rules.

This is the key one. If NI is in the single market then its hard to see how Scotland and Wales won't be either - the trading advantages to them as very small countries are just too big to ignore. It will be interesting to find out a) who decides if the border is hard or not and b) the timing of that decision.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 22:41
Quote:
joethefanatic

This is the key one. If NI is in the single market then its hard to see how Scotland and Wales won't be either - the trading advantages to them as very small countries are just too big to ignore. It will be interesting to find out a) who decides if the border is hard or not and b) the timing of that decision.

Well if NI is in the single market then we can presume England is. Otherwise losing access to the UK 'single market' would be catastrophic for Wales and Scotland - especially as EU trade is growing minimally in those countries.

The 'hard border' thing is a fudge. The EU, on their side, and the UK on ours decide how hard the border is. Both can act unilaterally.

I'd imagine that decision will be made on the day a trade agreement is made. If the UK leaves without a suitable deal, I can't imagine the EU not enforcing the border on its side.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 22:46
Exactly our problem - we went into the process with an old school 1970's win or lose negotiation strategy

We came up against a far more sophisticated and better prepared opponent

Should have started from the other end of the telescope - it isn't about who wins, who loses and if we can scramble a draw in the face of an humiliating spanking but what outcomes suits both parties best and how can we best achieve that goal

Sad waste of time, energy and hope - the next generation and the generation after that will be so much the poorer for such small mindedness

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
08 December, 2017 22:59
Quote:
gaz59
Sad waste of time, energy and hope - the next generation and the generation after that will be so much the poorer for such small mindedness

I doubt the next generation will wait that long before requesting readmittance to the EU.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 December, 2017 00:44
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic

This is the key one. If NI is in the single market then its hard to see how Scotland and Wales won't be either - the trading advantages to them as very small countries are just too big to ignore. It will be interesting to find out a) who decides if the border is hard or not and b) the timing of that decision.

Well if NI is in the single market then we can presume England is. Otherwise losing access to the UK 'single market' would be catastrophic for Wales and Scotland - especially as EU trade is growing minimally in those countries.

The 'hard border' thing is a fudge. The EU, on their side, and the UK on ours decide how hard the border is. Both can act unilaterally.

I'd imagine that decision will be made on the day a trade agreement is made. If the UK leaves without a suitable deal, I can't imagine the EU not enforcing the border on its side.

Agreed. So a potential outcome is that the UK remains in the single market. And it definitely remains subject to the rulings of the EU Court of Justice for at least a further 8 years (and quite likely in perpetuity). And it will pay GBP50 billion to the EU for the privilege of having no voice at the table. Remind me again why we are doing all this?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 01:51 by joethefanatic.

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 December, 2017 01:50
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic

This is the key one. If NI is in the single market then its hard to see how Scotland and Wales won't be either - the trading advantages to them as very small countries are just too big to ignore. It will be interesting to find out a) who decides if the border is hard or not and b) the timing of that decision.

Well if NI is in the single market then we can presume England is. Otherwise losing access to the UK 'single market' would be catastrophic for Wales and Scotland - especially as EU trade is growing minimally in those countries.

The 'hard border' thing is a fudge. The EU, on their side, and the UK on ours decide how hard the border is. Both can act unilaterally.

I'd imagine that decision will be made on the day a trade agreement is made. If the UK leaves without a suitable deal, I can't imagine the EU not enforcing the border on its side.

Agreed. So a potential outcome is that the UK remains in the single market. And it definitely remains subject to the rulings of the EU Court of Justice for at least a further 8 years (and quite likely in perpetuity). And it will pay GBP50 billion to the EU for the privilege of having no voice at the table. Remind me again why we are doing all this?

Take back Control, isn’t it?

Oh, and for that old boy crying on the news the day after the vote weeping that he “has his country back”.

J



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 01:51 by ChippenhamRoman.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 December, 2017 07:10
And from the noises coming out from the tory ranks it doesn't sound like a done deal there at all, more of a temporary acquiescence until they see the detail and one side won't like it for sure. Also Barnier is saying the best we can expect is a Canadian style deal for our £40bn

That's some triumph!

At some point May is going to have to come off the fence, stop trying to please everyone with a sort hard Brexit with a soft centre and decide one way or another or we will be back to more shambolic chaos very quickly

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
09 December, 2017 13:02
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic

This is the key one. If NI is in the single market then its hard to see how Scotland and Wales won't be either - the trading advantages to them as very small countries are just too big to ignore. It will be interesting to find out a) who decides if the border is hard or not and b) the timing of that decision.

Well if NI is in the single market then we can presume England is. Otherwise losing access to the UK 'single market' would be catastrophic for Wales and Scotland - especially as EU trade is growing minimally in those countries.

The 'hard border' thing is a fudge. The EU, on their side, and the UK on ours decide how hard the border is. Both can act unilaterally.

I'd imagine that decision will be made on the day a trade agreement is made. If the UK leaves without a suitable deal, I can't imagine the EU not enforcing the border on its side.

The decision has already been made, in paragraph 49 (below) from the new agreement is a guarantee that regulatory alignment and EU rules will carry on in NI no matter what happens (meaning a hard border will never happen as they will never leave the Customs Union), and the rest of the UK will stay in the Customs Union (no matter what happens) given the commitment that there'll be no border in the Irish Sea. Hard Brexit is over. Continued regulatory alignment for the UK also means it will be much easier to re-join.


'The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom’s intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.'

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
10 December, 2017 07:57
"In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.'"

Not sure the editor of the Mail had read this when he wrote the headline "Rejoice, we are on the way"

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 14:15
And Davis and Gove are already backing away from the agreement. No wonder negotiations are so difficult, you can't trust them an inch.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 14:23
Quote:
jayeatman
And Davis and Gove are already backing away from the agreement. No wonder negotiations are so difficult, you can't trust them an inch.

No less trustworthy than the Europeans.

Like every politician on the planet they open their mouth and lies come out.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 16:43
Quote:
United States of Europe

The leader of Germany’s Social Democratic party has sketched out red lines for talks to form another coalition government with Angela Merkel.

In a speech at the SPD’s party conference in Berlin that called for the creation of a “United States of Europe” by 2025, as well as a more robust social security net and a phasing out of coal power, Martin Schulz made the case for entering open-ended talks with the Christian Democratic Union (CDU).

“Such a constitutional treaty has to be written by a convention that includes civil society and the people. This constitutional treaty will then have to be put to the member states and those that don’t approve it will automatically have to leave the EU,” Schulz said.

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 16:55
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
United States of Europe

The leader of Germany’s Social Democratic party has sketched out red lines for talks to form another coalition government with Angela Merkel.

In a speech at the SPD’s party conference in Berlin that called for the creation of a “United States of Europe” by 2025, as well as a more robust social security net and a phasing out of coal power, Martin Schulz made the case for entering open-ended talks with the Christian Democratic Union (CDU).

“Such a constitutional treaty has to be written by a convention that includes civil society and the people. This constitutional treaty will then have to be put to the member states and those that don’t approve it will automatically have to leave the EU,” Schulz said.

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?

No

[en.wikipedia.org]

UK only in 3 out of 14



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2017 17:12 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 17:45
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
United States of Europe

The leader of Germany’s Social Democratic party has sketched out red lines for talks to form another coalition government with Angela Merkel.

In a speech at the SPD’s party conference in Berlin that called for the creation of a “United States of Europe” by 2025, as well as a more robust social security net and a phasing out of coal power, Martin Schulz made the case for entering open-ended talks with the Christian Democratic Union (CDU).

“Such a constitutional treaty has to be written by a convention that includes civil society and the people. This constitutional treaty will then have to be put to the member states and those that don’t approve it will automatically have to leave the EU,” Schulz said.

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 19:25
The irony is that has we not taken the path we have we'd have had an influential say in this. As it is won't and there's a pretty good chance we'll have to rejoin on whatever terms are offered.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 20:33
[quote CoochieCoo]

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?[/quote]

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.[/quote]

He didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.

Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org]

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 20:35
[quote CoochieCoo]

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?[/quote]

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.[/quote]

He (we) didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.

Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org]

(Funnily, i think the young - who Remainers are so quick to champion - would sign us up for this in a heartbeat).

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 20:38
Quote:
DanWiley
The irony is that has we not taken the path we have we'd have had an influential say in this. As it is won't and there's a pretty good chance we'll have to rejoin on whatever terms are offered.

We never had any real influence in Europe as it's run by Germany and France for their benefit.

DC tried and came away with nothing.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 20:43
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
jayeatman
And Davis and Gove are already backing away from the agreement. No wonder negotiations are so difficult, you can't trust them an inch.

No less trustworthy than the Europeans.

Like every politician on the planet they open their mouth and lies come out.


Really? I don't see any of the European side backing away already.
Anyway being unelected, they have less need to lie.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
11 December, 2017 23:46
[quote Substitute][quote CoochieCoo]

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?[/quote]

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.[/quote]

He didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.

Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org][/quote]

I think the United States of Europe sounds like an excellent idea and I would have loved us to have been able to shape the outcome. But we're not going to be involved so its not really any of our business...

until we want to rejoin. At which point it will be too late.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 08:02
"We never had any real influence in Europe as it's run by Germany and France for their benefit. "

The UK, Germany and France were undoubtedly very powerful influences in the EU, as you'd expect from there economic position, but I don't see many other countries politically wanting out.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 08:19
Quote:
DanWiley
"We never had any real influence in Europe as it's run by Germany and France for their benefit. "
The UK, Germany and France were undoubtedly very powerful influences in the EU, as you'd expect from there economic position, but I don't see many other countries politically wanting out.

A number of others are concerned about the direction of travel and the implications for self determination in the nation state e.g. Hungary and Poland [own currency countries]. Those countries in the Euro zone have sacrificed their economic independence, the USE model will require them to sacrifice their political independence as well although I would argue some gave that up in C20 when they joined the Euro as Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain discovered in the late 00's and first half of this decade.



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 08:30
Rand corporation study


[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 08:32
Quote:
Substitute

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?
Quote:
CoochieCoo

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.

Quote:
Substitute
[He (we) didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.
Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org]

(Funnily, i think the young - who Remainers are so quick to champion - would sign us up for this in a heartbeat).

Nope.

"The existing legal position is that the UK (in common with all other Member States) has an absolute right to agree to or to veto treaty changes which involve further political integration. The UK cannot be compelled to agree to such treaty changes, whether because of the words "ever closer union" in the treaties or for any other reason."

Lawyersforbritain.org



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2017 08:41 by CoochieCoo.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 08:41
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
CoochieCoo

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.

He (we) didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.

Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org]

(Funnily, i think the young - who Remainers are so quick to champion - would sign us up for this in a heartbeat).

Nope.

"The existing legal position is that the UK (in common with all other Member States) has an absolute right to agree to or to veto treaty changes which involve further political integration. The UK cannot be compelled to agree to such treaty changes, whether because of the words "ever closer union" in the treaties or for any other reason."

Lawyersforbritain.org

The concept of qualified majority voting clouds this issue...

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 08:56
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
CoochieCoo

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.

He (we) didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.

Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org]

(Funnily, i think the young - who Remainers are so quick to champion - would sign us up for this in a heartbeat).

Nope.

"The existing legal position is that the UK (in common with all other Member States) has an absolute right to agree to or to veto treaty changes which involve further political integration. The UK cannot be compelled to agree to such treaty changes, whether because of the words "ever closer union" in the treaties or for any other reason."

Lawyersforbritain.org

The concept of qualified majority voting clouds this issue...

A treaty change such as a super state decision comes under the unanimity rules.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 09:11
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
CoochieCoo

Was this the kind of 'remain' people voted for?

DC had an opt out of ever closer Union. So the remain I voted for was the opt out of closer union and having to join the euro.

He (we) didn't have an opt-out of ever closer union and certainly no opt-out of future constitutional treaties or EU laws.

Were you misled by the remain side?

[fullfact.org]

(Funnily, i think the young - who Remainers are so quick to champion - would sign us up for this in a heartbeat).

Nope.

"The existing legal position is that the UK (in common with all other Member States) has an absolute right to agree to or to veto treaty changes which involve further political integration. The UK cannot be compelled to agree to such treaty changes, whether because of the words "ever closer union" in the treaties or for any other reason."

Lawyersforbritain.org

The concept of qualified majority voting clouds this issue...

A treaty change such as a super state decision comes under the unanimity rules.

So how does this square with the Schulz proposal for the USE documented by the FT and others last week?



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 09:47
Merkel and others reject it.

[www.politico.eu]



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 09:50
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Merkel and others reject it.
[www.politico.eu]

CC - I can't see the relevance of the article for which you have provided this link to my question...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2017 09:51 by Clarkey3k.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 09:56
Unanimity is required for all matters of membership and as a super state requires convergence of taxation etc. Schulzs proposal won't even get passed Merkel let alone a treaty change. Academic now as we are leaving anyway, but if the EU forced this on a state that does not want to be involved they have the veto option and the leave option!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 10:29
So the future of Europe is based upon the thinking of the German Chancellor? Elected leaders of EU member states come and go, the EU remains. What if Schulz and other federalists come to positions of power? Macron is talking about greater EU alignment, whatever that means. No one can know what Europe will be in 5, 10 or 20yr but the direction of travel will be towards a USE and harmonisation of fiscal and social policy. The four freedoms are the foundation for this structure.



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 10:39
The FT also documented that Merkel's party have dismissed Schulz's proposal and have said that it will not happen, so this is just Project Fear (irony) and a red herring. From the FT:



'Senior leaders of Angela Merkel’s conservative bloc have urged the Social Democrats to scale back their European ambitions, dismissing the SPD chief’s calls for a United States of Europe as “dream dancing”'.




What is more relevant is that it looks certain that the EU will ensure that last weeks withdrawal deal will be turned into a legally-binding treaty, meaning that a soft Brexit is guaranteed. Seems that Davis, Gove and Peter Bone have done the country a massive favour by their blustering remarks over the weekend. Yet another unforced, self-inflicted error by the UK Govt and doing serious damage to our worldwide reputation and credibility.


[www.thetimes.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 10:57
We have voted to not have any influence in Europe so it is up to the other leaders to agree or not agree as the case maybe. I was asked whether I was misled, answer being no because of our right of veto. I also took the view that if that didn't work we could always out at another time.

The Super State will require divergence of currency, finance, taxation, security and defence amongst other things. There are a number of members like us not in the Euro who may well find having to join abhorrent. The cultures between the North and the South in my view will make the workings of the super state extremely difficult and tricky.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 11:09
Quote:
Man From LA
What is more relevant is that it looks certain that the EU will ensure that last weeks withdrawal deal will be turned into a legally-binding treaty, meaning that a soft Brexit is guaranteed.

That might be the EU's aim but even the current Tory Gov aren't so stupid as to agree that before the serious negotiations begin. This would be akin to tying both hands behind our backs.

At some point someone from this Government will need to demonstrate some teeth in this negotiation and remind the EU bureaucrats that this isn't just a political game and there are 500m real people out there who depend on all of this working. It would also be a good idea to continue to remind the EU 27 of the balance of trade between us and the pain that would be experienced on both sides.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 11:12
Quote:
CoochieCoo
We have voted to not have any influence in Europe so it is up to the other leaders to agree or not agree as the case maybe. I was asked whether I was misled, answer being no because of our right of veto. I also took the view that if that didn't work we could always out at another time.
The Super State will require divergence of currency, finance, taxation, security and defence amongst other things. There are a number of members like us not in the Euro who may well find having to join abhorrent. The cultures between the North and the South in my view will make the workings of the super state extremely difficult and tricky.

Agreed. Even Merkel has said it will never happen. This was just Project Fear by the right-wing, pro hard-brexit papers trying to re-live the referendum and divert attention away from the relevant issues. They know a hard-brexit is over.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 11:19
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
Man From LA
What is more relevant is that it looks certain that the EU will ensure that last weeks withdrawal deal will be turned into a legally-binding treaty, meaning that a soft Brexit is guaranteed.

That might be the EU's aim but even the current Tory Gov aren't so stupid as to agree that before the serious negotiations begin. This would be akin to tying both hands behind our backs.

At some point someone from this Government will need to demonstrate some teeth in this negotiation and remind the EU bureaucrats that this isn't just a political game and there are 500m real people out there who depend on all of this working. It would also be a good idea to continue to remind the EU 27 of the balance of trade between us and the pain that would be experienced on both sides.

The current Tory Govt aren't that stupid? *David Davis* *Boris Johnson*. They have no choice, the EU have always had the upper hand, the Leave campaign told lies when they told the public otherwise. Why else do you think that May & Co have given in to every demand? We definitely need them more than they need us and they know it.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 11:40
Quote:
Man from LA
Quote:
CoochieCoo
We have voted to not have any influence in Europe so it is up to the other leaders to agree or not agree as the case maybe. I was asked whether I was misled, answer being no because of our right of veto. I also took the view that if that didn't work we could always out at another time.
The Super State will require divergence of currency, finance, taxation, security and defence amongst other things. There are a number of members like us not in the Euro who may well find having to join abhorrent. The cultures between the North and the South in my view will make the workings of the super state extremely difficult and tricky.

Agreed. Even Merkel has said it will never happen. This was just Project Fear by the right-wing, pro hard-brexit papers trying to re-live the referendum and divert attention away from the relevant issues. They know a hard-brexit is over.

I'm not convinced hard brexit is over, far from it, they have fudged everything to keep the EU happy as well as the DUP and the tory headbangers.

If parliament had it's say then clearly it would be the softest of Brexits, but with her power base no chance.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 11:53
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
Man from LA
Quote:
CoochieCoo
We have voted to not have any influence in Europe so it is up to the other leaders to agree or not agree as the case maybe. I was asked whether I was misled, answer being no because of our right of veto. I also took the view that if that didn't work we could always out at another time.
The Super State will require divergence of currency, finance, taxation, security and defence amongst other things. There are a number of members like us not in the Euro who may well find having to join abhorrent. The cultures between the North and the South in my view will make the workings of the super state extremely difficult and tricky.

Agreed. Even Merkel has said it will never happen. This was just Project Fear by the right-wing, pro hard-brexit papers trying to re-live the referendum and divert attention away from the relevant issues. They know a hard-brexit is over.

I'm not convinced hard brexit is over, far from it, they have fudged everything to keep the EU happy as well as the DUP and the tory headbangers.

If parliament had it's say then clearly it would be the softest of Brexits, but with her power base no chance.

I understand your point WP but once the Govt sign the legally-binding phase 1 withdrawal agreement, if no trade agreement is found (the Good Friday Agreement demands an open border so Ireland/the EU will only agree to a soft Brexit) we will be legally obliged to fall back on paragraph 49 stating that NI (ergo the UK) will stay in the Customs Union.
There is enormous political will between the EU, UK, Ireland and the DUP to ensure there is no hard border in Ireland and there is only one outcome to that- Customs Union/Single Market access.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 12:57
Quote:
Man In LA
They have no choice, the EU have always had the upper hand, the Leave campaign told lies when they told the public otherwise. Why else do you think that May & Co have given in to every demand? We definitely need them more than they need us and they know it

The argument is a little bit more nuanced than 'they need us more than we need them, or vice versa'. The 'demands that have been given into' will be well worth it if we get what we need with respects to trade and services access etc (and some would say regardless of that).

Davis' comments probably didn't help but were be necessary to keep the hard line 'give em nothing' Brexiteers in line.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 12:58
The crass ineptitude of Davis is simply extraordinary - no big surprise that the EU heard the interview with Marrs and have strengthened their position

As own goals go it is the equivalent of starting in opposing penalty box, dribbling back to own half all around a bemused opposition to volley past own goalkeeper from 35 meteres and then celebrating as if just won the world cup single handed

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:11
Theresa May has tightened the screw in the last 24 hours by pointing out that if the EU drags its heels over the trade deal we will leave without handing over any financial settlement at all. Over a year ago, on this website, I predicted that we would leave the single market and the customs union but that we would negotiate a trade deal that would give us access to the single market and our own customs arrangement. That is what is best for the UK, the best for the EU and the best for businesses in the UK and in the EU.

That has always been the position of the government and is precisely what we are still on course for. It is clear that the EU wants to have a successful trading relationship with the UK and vice versa.

The remainers are simply doing everything they can to try to ensure that we do not have a calm, orderly and successful exit from the EU. They would still rather see the UK economy fail than see the country be successful outside the EU. The more the whole thing moves to the inevitable conclusion the shriller their voices become, the more ridiculous their scaremongering gets and the more frantic their actions are as they see how it is coming together. It is really very sad indeed.

Meanwhile UKIP is disappearing in a puff of its own irrelevance and Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the first clue what to do, other than contradict himself every five minutes in a desperate hope to convince all people of all opinions to vote for him.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:22
These remainers sure are a powerful bunch. They made Davies act like a buffoon for all these months, and Johnson, Gove and Mogg undermine the PM at every turn!

What exactly are remainers doing? Is it us debating on a rugby forum that is causing all this mess?

To me it seems that nearly all the Brexit mess has been caused by those negotiating to leave.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:27
I knew malco would be back sooner or later..

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:42
Quote:
woodpecker
I knew malco would be back sooner or later..

Hooray!

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