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malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:45
Quote:
Substitute
I was responding to CC telling the Brexiteers to get their act together for the umpteenth time...
I quite agree, but it was Phillip Hammond who rejected discussions about the end state. It's no great surprise - more than half the cabinet and more than half the Brexit committee are opposed to Brexit.

It needed a government who believed in Brexit - yes, there would be differences but they would be reconcilable. For the majority of this cabinet that are not reconcilable and they'll never be able to contribute to a better Brexit outcome in any meaningful sense.

There is some enduring confusion over the position of the government which is being deliberately perpetuated by people who wish to undermine them.

The Conservative Party took a neutral position on the referendum. It allowed members to argue for and against, according to their personal view. Anybody suggesting that the Conservative Party was pro or anti leaving the EU is wrong. The party has always valued individual freedom of thought and expression.

However, the Conservative Government was pro Remain. Cameron and Osborne campaigned to Remain and urged the British people to vote to Remain. They sent a taxpayer funded leaflet, imploring people to vote Remain, through every door in the country.

The Leave campaign was not a political party and was not the government. So people who suggest that Leave campaign slogans were promises are either ignorant or deliberately untruthful. The Leave campaign could not promise anything because it effectively ceased to exist the moment the last vote was cast.

Only the government could make promises because only the government had the ability to deliver promises. The government campaigned to Remain and failed to plan for the eventuality of a Leave vote because it didn't believe people would vote to Leave and the leaders had no intention of sticking around to implement Brexit in the unlikely event that it did.

So people criticising the government for not planning Brexit before the referendum are spectacularly missing the point.

The government has to implement the will of the people if it is not to be held in contempt of democracy by the people. Since the referendum the Conservative Party has had to take responsibility for implementing Brexit. People moaning about the Conservative Party implementing Brexit are really just moaning about democracy. What else is a Government supposed to do after a referendum?

MPs voted 6-1 to implement A50 because they understood this. That is ALL politicians from ALL parties, not just the Conservatives.

So, what do we want from a deal with the EU? We need to have control of our borders and legislature because these are things that have clearly influenced large numbers of people to vote to leave the EU. We need freedom to estabish our own free trade deals globally, rather than just give preference to countries in the EU.

The single market and the customs union are beneficial arrangements made by the EU for its members. The EU itself has said that leaving the EU means leaving the customs union and the single market. So what we need is to set up our own relationship with the EU so that it provides all the benefits of access to the single market without membership and our own customs agreement that doesn't impinge the free movement of goods between the UK and EU member countries. There is no reason why these things cannot be negotiated, they are mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU and desired by business.

We needed to guarantee the rights of people from the EU here and have guarantees for the rights of British people living in the EU and we needed to face the responsibility for funding the financial commitments we have made. We need to have a good trade deal if possible but it takes two parties to negotiate a contract. No matter how much we want a deal, we can't have one if the other party decides, for whatever reason, that it doesn't want one.

If the EU won't agree to a free trade deal we don't need to pay a financial settlement because we will have no benefits from membership and therefore will not need to pay for something that we do not receive. It is that simple. Countries all over the world trade with each other seamlessly on WTO rules and all of the Remainer talk of punitive tariffs and sanctions is ridiculous scaremongering nonsense.

I don't believe it will come to this because of the mutual benefits of negotiating a free trade deal, access to the single market and a customs agreement.

Our government knows this, the EU knows this and the only people who deny this are those angry and resentful ideological pro EU propagandists who cannot face the idea of everything going well and the UK prospering outside the EU.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:53
I don't think that many people actually deny it Malco, they're just wondering what the point is.

To negotiate access to Single Market and Customs Union we won't be able to have free trade deals with other countries and we will be subject to EU regulations on the goods we trade but without the ability to set those regulations. So, all this for blue passports?

Also, the UK has not negotiated to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU. They want to push that back to phase 2.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:56
Doesn't take long before the name calling starts - hope you have learnt how to take it when it starts flowing the other way, this time.

Malco when you stick to rugby you are very informative and challenging and I enjoy your contributions. Say no more

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 13:59
That's not correct Trev. Membership of the Single Market and Customs Union would prevent us from agreeing free trade deals, but we aren't going to have membership because we are leaving the EU. Negotiating access to the Single Market and our own customs agreement will give us the same benefits with none of the drawbacks. It is what Dan Hannan has been saying for five years. All goods sold to export markets have to meet the standards of the countries they are sold to. All manufacturers already do this. If you sell a widget to the USA it has to meet their standards and their standards are different to EU standards. We just have to re-establish BSI standards and ensure that they are more stringent than EU standards, this automatically gives British companies a competitive advantage.

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We have pledged to recognise the rights of EU citizens in the final deal. That is what will happen. No deal = no rights for EU citizens.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 14:00
Quote:
hemington
Doesn't take long before the name calling starts - hope you have learnt how to take it when it starts flowing the other way, this time.
Malco when you stick to rugby you are very informative and challenging and I enjoy your contributions. Say no more

What? What "name calling"?

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 14:08
Quote:
malco
That's not correct Trev. Membership of the Single Market and Customs Union would prevent us from agreeing free trade deals, but we aren't going to have membership because we are leaving the EU. Negotiating access to the Single Market and our own customs agreement will give us the same benefits with none of the drawbacks. It is what Dan Hannan has been saying for five years. All goods sold to export markets have to meet the standards of the countries they are sold to. All manufacturers already do this. If you sell a widget to the USA it has to meet their standards and their standards are different to EU standards. We just have to re-establish BSI standards and ensure that they are more stringent than EU standards, this automatically gives British companies a competitive advantage.
Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We have pledged to recognise the rights of EU citizens in the final deal. That is what will happen. No deal = no rights for EU citizens.

Until the US demands a market for chlorine washed chicken and hormone pumped beef etc. "Bonfire of red tape" isn't it?

Sorry, I meant the rights of UK citizens living in the EU. Our right to move between countries has been traded away by the UK government so the UK could be made a more hostile environment to EU immigrants.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 14:08
Quote:
malco
Quote:
hemington
Doesn't take long before the name calling starts - hope you have learnt how to take it when it starts flowing the other way, this time.
Malco when you stick to rugby you are very informative and challenging and I enjoy your contributions. Say no more

What? What "name calling"?

"and the only people who deny this are those angry and resentful ideological pro EU propagandists who cannot face the idea of everything going well and the UK prospering outside the EU."

Bit of a generalisation and course nothing like Brexiteeers. Why do you have to dissmiss anyone who disagrees with you by giving them ridiculous labels.

I suppose there are no angry and resentful idealogical anti EU propagandists who cannot face the idea of everything going wrong and the UK not prospering outside the EU

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 14:14
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
malco
Quote:
hemington
Doesn't take long before the name calling starts - hope you have learnt how to take it when it starts flowing the other way, this time.
Malco when you stick to rugby you are very informative and challenging and I enjoy your contributions. Say no more

What? What "name calling"?

"and the only people who deny this are those angry and resentful ideological pro EU propagandists who cannot face the idea of everything going well and the UK prospering outside the EU."

Bit of a generalisation and course nothing like Brexiteeers. Why do you have to dissmiss anyone who disagrees with you by giving them ridiculous labels.

I suppose there are no angry and resentful idealogical anti EU propagandists who cannot face the idea of everything going wrong and the UK not prospering outside the EU

Let's put this to the test.

Are you angry and resentful about the UK voting to leave the EU and committing that we will by March 2019?

Are you pro EU membership and expressing a preference for hte UK to stay in the EU despite the referendum result?

Would you rather see the UK remain in the EU than leave the EU and prosper outside the EU?

There are many resentful ideological anti EU propagandists. I'm very happy to admit being one of them. No attention was ever given to our opinion in the 40 years before the referendum.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 15:29
This access to the single market is a Labour thing, it doesn't really mean much, you can get full access to the single market by being in it, you can get very close to that by being locked into things like Norway and Switzerland, it's a trade-off. Loads of countries have 'access' to the single market.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 15:30
Quote:
malco


Let's put this to the test.

Are you angry and resentful about the UK voting to leave the EU and committing that we will by March 2019?

No sad and disappointed

Quote:
malco

Are you pro EU membership and expressing a preference for hte UK to stay in the EU despite the referendum result?

Would you rather see the UK remain in the EU than leave the EU and prosper outside the EU?

Yes but why does that make me an idealist and propergandist?
Also you (or anybody else) don't know (only a hope) we will prosper outside the EU. I do know we did OK inside it - I'll agree you might have a different definition of OK.

Quote:
malco

There are many resentful ideological anti EU propagandists. I'm very happy to admit being one of them. No attention was ever given to our opinion in the 40 years before the referendum.

So you didn't have the opportunity to vote Tory/UKIP/NF etc in all those years.

Malco I respect your firmly held beliefs and respect them but why do you have to be so critical about anybody who dares to think differently?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2017 15:59 by hemington.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 15:41
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
Our right to move between countries has been traded away by the UK government so the UK could be made a more hostile environment to EU immigrants.

If you have relevant skills and/or money you will still be able to move to any country as you'll add value.

Why should you just be able to move to any country regardless of whether you add value to them or not?



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 15:47
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
Our right to move between countries has been traded away by the UK government so the UK could be made a more hostile environment to EU immigrants.

If you have relevant skills and/or money you will still be able to move to any country as you'll add value.

Why should you just be able to move to any country regardless of whether you add value to them or not?

Do you mean the Welsh?

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 16:05
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
Our right to move between countries has been traded away by the UK government so the UK could be made a more hostile environment to EU immigrants.

If you have relevant skills and/or money you will still be able to move to any country as you'll add value.

Why should you just be able to move to any country regardless of whether you add value to them or not?

Because it's easier, it's what we had and it's what the government promised to protect. Removing that puts me at a disadvantage to the EU citizens I'm competing with.

It's also much more complicated. Lets say I work in Netherlands and planned to retire to France? Or I work in Belgium, married to a German and my child wants to go to university in the UK, do they pay foreign student fees? Or they want to study in Italy?

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 16:17
Hemington, it isn’t about being critical, it is about being honest. I have just described myself in exactly the same terms but on the opposite side of the argument. You interpret it as an insult. It isn’t intended as an insult. I am biased in this debate and so are you. I passionately believe in my angle and you passionately believe in yours. Neither of us is going to persuade the other to change their perspective so it is pointless to try. 90 per cent of what I read on here is condemnatory and critical of the government and the leave process and the insults aimed at leavers are way, way more marked than those in the opposite direction. That’s why i stopped bothering to participate. Perhaps I need to once again accept that there is only one approved and welcome perspective here and just leave those who hold it to agree with themselves and condemn all of us stupid, hateful fascist Little Englanders without bothering to try to present the other perspective...

Quote:
hemington
Quote:
malco


Let's put this to the test.

Are you angry and resentful about the UK voting to leave the EU and committing that we will by March 2019?

No sad and disappointed

Quote:
malco

Are you pro EU membership and expressing a preference for hte UK to stay in the EU despite the referendum result?

Would you rather see the UK remain in the EU than leave the EU and prosper outside the EU?

Yes but why does that make me an idealist and propergandist?
Also you (or anybody else) don't know (only a hope) we will prosper outside the EU. I do know we did OK inside it - I'll agree you might have a different definition of OK.

Quote:
malco

There are many resentful ideological anti EU propagandists. I'm very happy to admit being one of them. No attention was ever given to our opinion in the 40 years before the referendum.

So you didn't have the opportunity to vote Tory/UKIP/NF etc in all those years.

Malco I respect your firmly held beliefs and respect them but why do you have to be so critical about anybody who dares to think differently?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2017 16:18 by malco.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 17:19
Quote:
malco
[]Let's put this to the test.
Are you angry and resentful about the UK voting to leave the EU and committing that we will by March 2019?

Are you pro EU membership and expressing a preference for hte UK to stay in the EU despite the referendum result?

Would you rather see the UK remain in the EU than leave the EU?

There are many resentful ideological anti EU propagandists. I'm very happy to admit being one of them. No attention was ever given to our opinion in the 40 years before the referendum.

Yes, yes, yes and I seem to remember quite a lot of coverage of anti-EU/leave opinion in the press. Most of it either deranged or flat out lies. Plus ça change.

Oh and welcome back, malco, we are never going to agree on any part of this but a range of voices is critically important - now more than ever.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 17:31
Quote:
malco
Let's put this to the test.
Are you angry and resentful about the UK voting to leave the EU and committing that we will by March 2019?
Not really; more saddened; and hopeful that we'll go for the least damaging option left available for us (is in, the softest Brexit possible)

Quote:
malco
Are you pro EU membership and expressing a preference for hte UK to stay in the EU despite the referendum result?
Yes; preferably through a second referendum or alongside an admission that Brexit was mis-sold in the first place.
Quote:
malco
Would you rather see the UK remain in the EU than leave the EU and prosper outside the EU?
My preference would be for the UK to stay in the EU and prosper - which still seems far more likely than your scenario of leaving and prospering; the most likely though of leaving and floundering (but not as badly as some predict) would be less favourable still
Quote:
malco
There are many resentful ideological anti EU propagandists. I'm very happy to admit being one of them. No attention was ever given to our opinion in the 40 years before the referendum.
You remember the last 40 years very differently from me.


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 20:11
I'm beginning to wonder if David Davis is a closet remainer. His every utterance appears calculated to take away any leverage in the "negotiation" the UK may have had.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 22:13
Quote:
Countries all over the world trade with each other seamlessly on WTO rules and all of the Remainer talk of punitive tariffs and sanctions is ridiculous scaremongering nonsense.

I’ve heard no talk of “punitive” tariffs or “sanctions”. But Brexiter’s beloved WTO rules specify tariffs, often very high ones which - and this is important - CANNOT BE WAIVED however much either side might want to.

Quote:
I don't believe it will come to this because of the mutual benefits of negotiating a free trade deal, access to the single market and a customs agreement.

Let’s hope you are right, but both sides have motivations beyond the economic benefits of a deal. They could cause either side to either walk away or refuse to offer what the other side wants. For the UK it’s the “red lines” and having to keep Tory Brexiters on side. For the EU it’s the integrity and future of the the Union. Both outweigh the economics if push comes to shove.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
12 December, 2017 22:44
Gaz59

I would love to have be on the Christmas Sherry early as you said!

However what I wrote, several pages ago, which you dismissed by the sherry comment is what around 180 companies with a value of between £5m and £4.5bn have said to us. I'm really sorry it does not suit your narrative but there we are.

I do acknowledge that these companies do not include Pharma, Aerospace, Automotive and Complex Banking/Investment Banking trading (yes the stuff that everyone seems to despise!)

The World Bank about three weeks ago (I'm really sorry to quote an "expert" but at least this is a factual report) say that 73% of UK GDP is generated in the UK, 13% in the EU, 9% in North America and 5% in the Rest of the World.

So what all the discussion/argument is about is the 13% and the rights of EU employees to stay in the UK.........I think this is possible to work out but no doubt I will be put straight on that!

I have begun to hear the phrase "business people will make business happen" as companies and their leaders just get on with trading with other countries. Met a company today where they have increased exports from 20% to 30% in the last two years in a company who have grown their turnover (sales) from £3.5m to £5m..........nothing much incidentally to the EU.


Mr CC

Not sure I can quite remember your comments above but every company I am involved with is trying to invest in capex to remove labour as a %'age of finished product and to have a much smaller number of people earning 50% plus more in pay to operate equipment which produces twice as much of a much more consistent quality.

To the extent that unskilled young men from Bulgaria, Romania et al don't come here or choose to leave and get a job in Germany (which has proven to be impossible) or France..........no I won't talk about their behaviour to immigrants as it is too awful.. However I am aware of "rocket scientists who wanted to move to the UK (and be employed by a company I know very well) but could not get a visa because of the racist behaviour that only allows EU immigrants in at the expense of brilliant young people who want to move here from a round the ex-EU World!

As Annie regularly says.........I await the incoming!


I would suggest however that you do read Yanis Varoufakis's book as it gives a very helpful background to the whole EU

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 11:15
Very glad to hear that your companies are trying to invest as we all need to make this brexit work. We need confidence from overseas to keep investing in the UK. However the British Chambers of Commerce are still concerned even after the deal struck last week.

Quote:
Adam Marshall, BCC director general, said: “Despite last week’s deal, Brexit uncertainty still lingers over business communities, and is undermining many firms’ investment decisions and confidence.
“Despite pockets of resilience and success, and strong results for some UK firms, the bigger picture is one of slow economic growth amid uncertain trading conditions.”

Another gloomy expert!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 11:31
"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We have pledged to recognise the rights of EU citizens in the final deal. That is what will happen. No deal = no rights for EU citizens."

Does that also then mean No deal = No rights for UK citizens living in the EU because my neighbour who spends 65% + time in her south France cottage and voted Leave so she could still buy high powered vacuum cleaners will have some thinking to do

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 11:42
Quote:
gaz59
"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We have pledged to recognise the rights of EU citizens in the final deal. That is what will happen. No deal = no rights for EU citizens."
Does that also then mean No deal = No rights for UK citizens living in the EU because my neighbour who spends 65% + time in her south France cottage and voted Leave so she could still buy high powered vacuum cleaners will have some thinking to do

It will mean that she has exactly the same rights as any other person living in the South of France who comes from a country outside the EU.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 11:48
Quote:
Gaz59
Does that also then mean No deal = No rights for UK citizens living in the EU because my neighbour who spends 65% + time in her south France cottage and voted Leave so she could still buy high powered vacuum cleaners will have some thinking to do

Nobody knows at this point but i suspect Citizens rights will not unravel and it will all be about hard cash.

Does your neighbour post or lurk on this board or are you just referencing them as an example to demonstrate that some people like France, like powerful vacuum cleaners, but still voted to leave the EU ?

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 12:34
Neither really Beergoggles, just giving one, known, example of many who voted Leave as an Anti-EU demonstration of 'bureaucracy gone mad' and missing far more important, bigger issues that will impact on their lives - she reads the Mail by the way but apart from that a very nice, engaging, friendly neighbour when she is here

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 13:44
Quote:
gaz59
...far more important, bigger issues...

What... like a holiday home in France?

(As opposed to the supranational political structure that determines how we conduct large parts of our lives).

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 14:42
How did the EU determine how you lived your life? I mean ignoring the regulatory aspect that it looks like we'll be keeping.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 14:47
We won’t.

It has been responsible for opening our borders, for deciding who we trade with as a priority and has been making our laws for us. Its courts have held jurisdiction over our judiciary.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 15:02
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.

Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 15:07
And we could have used all manners of border controls but chose not to.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:14
Quote:
DanWiley
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.
Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

My trade fantasy?

Grow up chum. And welcome to reality.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:18
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
And we could have used all manners of border controls but chose not to.

The Labour Larty used it as a handy pretence to give up all border controls and sctively invite vast numbers of people into this country from all over the planet “to rub the noses of the right in diversity”.

The net effect was vast numbers of their supporters feeling disenfranchised, failing to vote for them in a general election and supporting Brexit.

But not before enormous and probably irreversible damage had been done to the economy and social fabric of the country.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:19
Just heard on the radio that unemployment has fallen to another 40+ plus year low.......but that is not the point of this post as I am very excited to hear that the number of vacancies is really very large (700,000+) and that the workforce has fallen by 50,000. We still have net immigration from Europe but it has fallen a long way.

As the European countries pick up economic steam, which is really good for everyone, people will be able to get jobs in their own countries and can stay with their family and friends and help improve the prosperity.

This means, logically, that wages will have to start rising in the UK as employers compete for the marginal extra employee.

This in turn will mean that businesses will start to look at investment to reduce labour......WHICH IS A VERY GOOD THING.......as it will lead to growth in productivity and hence will mean that wages can start to rise........WHICH IS ALSO A VERY GOOD THING.

A company I visited yesterday are looking at "Cobots" which are apparently robots that work alongside humans and do the really mundane repetitive tasks whilst the human does the trickier jobs.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:29
And can 'Cobots' pick sprouts in muddy fields, care for old people, clean rooms and change sheets, wait on tables, clean buildings, porter and nurse in hospitals etc etc. Because if not who is going to do these vital jobs?

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:31
Quote:
DanWiley
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.
Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

Who's trade fantasy and how's it being shown to be anything ? Is there a missing context here or are you just restarting hostilities because Malco is back ?

Not sure what the relevance (or not) of whether we like the laws that have been made on our behalf by the EU is either. I think it's the freedom to self determine that's the key issue here (and isn't it always ?).

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:33
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
And we could have used all manners of border controls but chose not to.

So which ones were they...

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 16:35
Quote:
malco
Quote:
DanWiley
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.
Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

My trade fantasy?

Grow up chum. And welcome to reality.

Your reply would have been more impressive if you'd answered the question instead of attacking the questioner, malco.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:05
Quote:
malco
That has always been the position of the government and is precisely what we are still on course for. It is clear that the EU wants to have a successful trading relationship with the UK and vice versa.

The remainers are simply doing everything they can to try to ensure that we do not have a calm, orderly and successful exit from the EU. They would still rather see the UK economy fail than see the country be successful outside the EU. The more the whole thing moves to the inevitable conclusion the shriller their voices become, the more ridiculous their scaremongering gets and the more frantic their actions are as they see how it is coming together. It is really very sad indeed.

Meanwhile UKIP is disappearing in a puff of its own irrelevance and Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the first clue what to do, other than contradict himself every five minutes in a desperate hope to convince all people of all opinions to vote for him.

Welcome back malco.

Your optimism is admirable. I truly wish that we could achieve this 'cake and eat it' nirvana of all the benefits of access to the single market without any of those pesky things that seem to annoy Brexiters so much, like freedom of movement and the European Court. If I believed this country would prosper outside the EU, I wouldn't be so adamantly opposed to Brexit, however the signs are not good. In 18 months we've gone from being the fastest growing economy in the EU to the slowest and that's before we've even left.

The Irish issue has been fudged. I don't think anyone has any idea what the solution is if we do leave the Customs Union and the Single Market. If last week's agreement is enforcable then at least it seems to rule out a cliff edge crash out, but as ever there is no consensus on that.

Accussing Remainers en bloc of trying to deliberately sabotage Brexit is a bit like blaming the 'iceberg ahead' lookout on the Titanic that it was his fault it hit the iceberg. Most are just pointing out all the difficulties they can see, all those myriad details David Davis regards as being beneath him.

PS I totally agree with you on UKIP and Labour.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:24
Nobody is suggesting there are not obstacles ahead. Are those obstacles insurmountable? No, of course not. Will they be easy to negotiate? No, of course not. Are there huge rewards to be gained from negotiating them? You bet.

The biggest obstacle at the moment is the one at home that desperately agitated for us to turn back and not move forward.

It’s the same as everything in life. Risk = reward. If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got. If you want more you have to do something differently.

I’m not prepared to sit cocooned in a cosy little EU cotton wool prison, be patted on the head and pretend that I’m grateful for every little morsel they grudgingly chuck through the bars. And neither are most other British voters. I voted to take my chances and dig an escape tunnel. In the full knowledge that I might get shot in the back in my quest for freedom.

I still think that having made the escape it is a matter of time before half the other inmates follow us down the same tunnel.

The Irish issue is totally and very deliberately overblown by those intent on making obstacles appear insurmountable.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:27
Sorry Joe, ask me a civil question and you’ll get a civil answer.

Be disrespectful, rude or scornful and you’ll get the written version of a smack in the chops.

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
malco
Quote:
DanWiley
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.
Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

My trade fantasy?

Grow up chum. And welcome to reality.

Your reply would have been more impressive if you'd answered the question instead of attacking the questioner, malco.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:32
Quote:
malco
Sorry Joe, ask me a civil question and you’ll get a civil answer.
Be disrespectful, rude or scornful and you’ll get the written version of a smack in the chops.

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
malco
Quote:
DanWiley
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.
Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

My trade fantasy?

Grow up chum. And welcome to reality.

Your reply would have been more impressive if you'd answered the question instead of attacking the questioner, malco.

Happy to do so.

Could you give me examples of laws which the EU has made that have been against our values?

Many thanks

Joe



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:49
Quote:
hemington
And can 'Cobots' pick sprouts in muddy fields, care for old people, clean rooms and change sheets, wait on tables, clean buildings, porter and nurse in hospitals etc etc. Because if not who is going to do these vital jobs?

The lazy young Brits that currently prefer benefits.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:49
Joe,

How many times do I have to tell you?

Its one one about the vacuum cleaners being less than 950w and the working time directive, no wonder people are up in arms

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:54
Quote:
malco
Quote:
gaz59
"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We have pledged to recognise the rights of EU citizens in the final deal. That is what will happen. No deal = no rights for EU citizens."
Does that also then mean No deal = No rights for UK citizens living in the EU because my neighbour who spends 65% + time in her south France cottage and voted Leave so she could still buy high powered vacuum cleaners will have some thinking to do

It will mean that she has exactly the same rights as any other person living in the South of France who comes from a country outside the EU.

Which is not very helpful if you own a property. Having said that I asked my MEP about this and he said that we had a reciprocal deal with the French long before the EU.

If Im reading the statement last week correctly, if she makes it her main address the week before 29th March 19, she can stay there anyway. Like musical chairs.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:54
It is an entirely subjective point.

What do you consider to be “our values”?

Who do you mean by us?

I would suggest that core values of the British people are freedom, independence and self determination. Britons never, never, never shall be slaves. The result of the referendum shows this to be true.

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
malco
Sorry Joe, ask me a civil question and you’ll get a civil answer.
Be disrespectful, rude or scornful and you’ll get the written version of a smack in the chops.

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
malco
Quote:
DanWiley
I disagree, your trade fantasy is being shown to be just that.
Which laws has it made that have been against our values? When had the European court made decisions that don't reflect our values? Give me some examples because you've failed to in the past.

My trade fantasy?

Grow up chum. And welcome to reality.

Your reply would have been more impressive if you'd answered the question instead of attacking the questioner, malco.

Happy to do so.

Could you give me examples of laws which the EU has made that have been against our values?

Many thanks

Joe

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 17:58
I own a property in South Africa. We are not members of a political union with South Africa. I do not have any problem with my property ownership in South Africa. What problems do you foresee with ongoing property ownership in France?

Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
malco
Quote:
gaz59
"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We have pledged to recognise the rights of EU citizens in the final deal. That is what will happen. No deal = no rights for EU citizens."
Does that also then mean No deal = No rights for UK citizens living in the EU because my neighbour who spends 65% + time in her south France cottage and voted Leave so she could still buy high powered vacuum cleaners will have some thinking to do

It will mean that she has exactly the same rights as any other person living in the South of France who comes from a country outside the EU.

Which is not very helpful if you own a property. Having said that I asked my MEP about this and he said that we had a reciprocal deal with the French long before the EU.

If Im reading the statement last week correctly, if she makes it her main address the week before 29th March 19, she can stay there anyway. Like musical chairs.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 18:10
I have a strange sense of deja vu Malco,

but here we go, Australians can only stay 90 days in a European country - so they can own the house, but they cant live in it, you can get visas, but I think there are limitations.

Im still hoping to buy a house in France, but that nasty exchange rate is still making it painful.

As I said I think we will be OK with France as we were before.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 18:17
Here's another example, before Malta joined the EU, Brits could buy one property and it had to have a pool, post joining Brits can buy the whole place, anything they want.

Like it or not being in the EU means that you can't discriminate against fellow EU citizens. Personally I liked that, but maybe I'm selfish.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 19:32
Parliament takes back control! TM's first defeat means any Brexit deal has to have parliament approval!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 19:46
Taking back control, rejoice, we shall never ever never be slaves!

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 19:49
Amazing Brexiteers argued about lack of sovereignty yet did not want our own Parliament to be sovereign!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 20:04
I’m happy for our Parliament to be sovereign. The problem will be if the MPs who votes to remain in the EU choose to defy their constituents and enforce their personal will on them by frustrating the process. If that happens it will definitely lead to a constitutional crisis that would have very far reaching implications.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 20:36
Isn’t the point that Parliament will only vote on the negotiated solution.

If they vote ‘No’ it will not be re-negotiated so the alternative will be leave with no deal i.e. Hard Brexit.

Am I wrong?

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 20:40
Quote:
Boldangrey
Isn’t the point that Parliament will only vote on the negotiated solution.
If they vote ‘No’ it will not be re-negotiated so the alternative will be leave with no deal i.e. Hard Brexit.

Am I wrong?

I thought we'd just agreed to a legally binding promise of no hard border in Ireland, so we have to be in the customs union, at the very least.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 21:03
If you watched it on BBC parliament, Grieve's body language was enough to tell you this wasn't about sovereignty - for this 99% Remain backed amendment.

I don't think this makes a huge difference. Those who would see this country get the worst terms possible, in the hope that making life hard for their constituents will 'strongly encourage' them to change their mind will be cheered - but surely no representative could advocate that for his constituents?

Still, with the EU making clear the transition is part of the final deal it's hard to see how parliament couldrculd reject that.

Also, the idea that if a deal isn't good enough, that sending one side back to negotiate is going to get a better deal is laughable. I'm still waiting for those examples that Chuka Umuna spoke of where that is normal.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 21:06
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Boldangrey
Isn’t the point that Parliament will only vote on the negotiated solution.
If they vote ‘No’ it will not be re-negotiated so the alternative will be leave with no deal i.e. Hard Brexit.

Am I wrong?

I thought we'd just agreed to a legally binding promise of no hard border in Ireland, so we have to be in the customs union, at the very least.

We'd align regulations in the areas identified (number varies) as having cross-border impact.

It is also currently part of the final deal (i.e. the Article 50 withdrawal).

Also I hear many Remainers talking about the Norway model. I hear none talking about the Turkey model.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 21:33
Still unable to answer a simple question aren't you malco? Where have the EU stopped you in your freedom, independence and self determination? Give us some examples.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 22:32
The Tory rebels who voted against their government should have the guts to resign as MP's and force a bye election.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 22:56
Quote:
OutsideBath
The Tory rebels who voted against their government should have the guts to resign as MP's and force a bye election.

You mean just like Liam Fox, Bill Cash and John Redwood did every time they voted against "their" government? Oh, hold on...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/12/2017 22:56 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 23:17
Quote:
OutsideBath
The Tory rebels who voted against their government should have the guts to resign as MP's and force a bye election.

Against Their government but for Parliament and democracy

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
13 December, 2017 23:30
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
OutsideBath
The Tory rebels who voted against their government should have the guts to resign as MP's and force a bye election.

Against Their government but for Parliament and democracy


Is it really for parliament? Or were these overwhelmingly pro-remain MPs using sovereignty as a cover to vote against Brexit?

Is it really for Democracy? Or that the pro-remain parliament is seeking to impose it's will compared against the will of the people (bearing in mind, that the demos have very limited scope to select the MPs who they can elect).

You only had to watch the debate to see this wasn't about 'sovereignty' - probably on either side.

But then given how freely we throw around 'sovereignty' it's no surprise that the Remain side would use it as part of their political campaign.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 07:00
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
OutsideBath
The Tory rebels who voted against their government should have the guts to resign as MP's and force a bye election.

Against Their government but for Parliament and democracy

Democracy? They are just doing everything possible to keep us in the EU and has nothing to do with democracy. I've felt all along that the liberals won't allow us to leave the EU and this is just part of their plan.

If they can't support the government they have no place in the Tory party.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 07:23
In don't think you can draw that conclusion, if it were the case they were just voting against brexit then a lot of other votes world have been lost.

The last vote, and I suspect the one on putting a date on it, look like parliament working.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 07:31
They ignored the whip and should immediately resign as Tory MP's and join the liberal or labour party.

Hopefully their local party will deselect them next time around for not doing as instructed.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 07:49
In general, not specific to brexit, I think more MPs should ignore their whip. Being whipped is truly undemocratic. It's just party sponsors buying our government.

On this specific case, to do realise what you'd be asking for in brexit terms if they were to leave the party?

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 07:49
Quote:
OutsideBath
They ignored the whip and should immediately resign as Tory MP's and join the liberal or labour party.
Hopefully their local party will deselect them next time around for not doing as instructed.

If we follow your logic there would be no Brexiteers in the Tory Party as most of them ignored the whip against their party at some point in the past. What is the point of having MPs if all they can ever do is vote as they are told. A sort of Totalitarianism.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 07:54
Quote:
DanWiley
In general, not specific to brexit, I think more MPs should ignore their whip. Being whipped is truly undemocratic. It's just party sponsors buying our government.
On this specific case, to do realise what you'd be asking for in brexit terms if they were to leave the party?

I do realise that forcing them out of the party could result in the government collapsing if the resulting by-election went against the Tories. But ignoring the whip is serious and they should feel maximum punishment. If they can't support their club then they have to leave.

To be honest I've largely lost interest in Brexit and will just leave if it goes the wrong way for me.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 08:02
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
In general, not specific to brexit, I think more MPs should ignore their whip. Being whipped is truly undemocratic. It's just party sponsors buying our government.
On this specific case, to do realise what you'd be asking for in brexit terms if they were to leave the party?

I do realise that forcing them out of the party could result in the government collapsing if the resulting by-election went against the Tories. But ignoring the whip is serious and they should feel maximum punishment. If they can't support their club then they have to leave.

To be honest I've largely lost interest in Brexit and will just leave if it goes the wrong way for me.

Why didn't you leave before as we have been in the EU for 40 odd years so presumably it has been going the wrong easy for you for ages?



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 08:08
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
In general, not specific to brexit, I think more MPs should ignore their whip. Being whipped is truly undemocratic. It's just party sponsors buying our government.
On this specific case, to do realise what you'd be asking for in brexit terms if they were to leave the party?

I do realise that forcing them out of the party could result in the government collapsing if the resulting by-election went against the Tories. But ignoring the whip is serious and they should feel maximum punishment. If they can't support their club then they have to leave.

To be honest I've largely lost interest in Brexit and will just leave if it goes the wrong way for me.

Why didn't you leave before as we have been in the EU for 40 odd years so presumably it has been going the wrong easy for you for ages?

It's only in the last 5 years or so that I had the financial means to do so. The growing chance of a vote in that period gave me hope that it was worth sticking around for.

Also I am hoping to see Bath win something before potentially leaving.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 08:16
Hemington

Are you saying above that it is better that the status quo, ie we keep paying rubbish wages to 100,000's of EU Nationals is acceptable?

The world as we know it is going to have to change dramatically in the next say 30 years whether we stay in the EU or not.

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 08:52
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Boldangrey
Isn’t the point that Parliament will only vote on the negotiated solution.
If they vote ‘No’ it will not be re-negotiated so the alternative will be leave with no deal i.e. Hard Brexit.

Am I wrong?

I thought we'd just agreed to a legally binding promise of no hard border in Ireland, so we have to be in the customs union, at the very least.

We'd align regulations in the areas identified (number varies) as having cross-border impact.

It is also currently part of the final deal (i.e. the Article 50 withdrawal).

Also I hear many Remainers talking about the Norway model. I hear none talking about the Turkey model.

No, GB & NI are legally bound to remain in the Customs Union/Internal Market if there is no deal. You've been listening to David Davis again.

And it was Farage championing the Norway model up until the referendum.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 08:56
One thing I like about this is that it pulls the rug from under the DUP.

Outside Bath, where are you going? Presumably you've crossed 27 of our nearest neighbours off your list.

The Turkey model is poor

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 09:03
It really doesn't matter what our remote interpretation of this vote may be - the important thing is that enough Tory MPs saw it as a significant principle of democratic government to go against party interests and fair play to them for resisting the hardball stuff

The critical thing here is that yet again May has demonstrated inept political judgement as she could see this coming and had opportunity much earlier to make sufficient amendments to head off a serious defeat as well as inept leadership

Yet again this just continues to undermine our credibility on the global stage

There is a parliamentary majority for a soft Brexit [as there is in the country] and the best thing May can do is to accept this and face up to the hardliners in her party

Cameron couldn't do it so there is nothing to suggest May can and it will mean accepting a lot that Labour and Lib Dems are pushing for but it is her only chance of political survival

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 09:10
Quote:
woodpecker
One thing I like about this is that it pulls the rug from under the DUP.
Outside Bath, where are you going? Presumably you've crossed 27 of our nearest neighbours off your list.

The Turkey model is poor

Well I have places in France and Spain, but as you point out post Brexit it's debatable if these are viable. I also have 1 in Florida, but am now considering NZ as the best option because of their liking for rugby.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 09:13
All of this language of treachery and traitors by newspapers and MP's (especially as the man who murdered their colleague last year gave his name in court as 'death to traitors') is so un-British and the very definition of unpatriotic. The right-wing rags and pro-quitting MP's banged on for months about bringing back parliamentary sovereignty, what they actually meant was they wanted a supine collective that does as the right-wing of the Tory party asks. Quitters say the EU is undemocratic yet they want to deny the UK parliament a vote in legislation on such a monumental matter? David Davis has shown this week that he is not fit to lead any talks (let alone the biggest challenge to face the UK in modern peace-time history) and I'm glad that this will face proper scrutiny by the whole house and not left to the halfwits in Govt.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 09:21
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
woodpecker
One thing I like about this is that it pulls the rug from under the DUP.
Outside Bath, where are you going? Presumably you've crossed 27 of our nearest neighbours off your list.

The Turkey model is poor

Well I have places in France and Spain, but as you point out post Brexit it's debatable if these are viable. I also have 1 in Florida, but am now considering NZ as the best option because of their liking for rugby.

Hmm considering how much you don't like the EU, you have got a lot of houses in it

 
Man from LA
Man from LA (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 10:07
BMG poll shows that 61% of people (including 42% of Leave voters) want MP's to have a vote on the final deal on quitting the EU. Right-wing rags and Leave MP's are completely out of touch.



[leftfootforward.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 10:09 by Man from LA.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 10:55
Lets face it this whole Brexit thing is entirely the fault of faceless unelected UK civil servants with their overzealous implementation of Brussels guidelines. The only one's to really profit from Brexit are our attention seeking MP's and lawyers.

The French/Spanish have entirely the right way of making the EU work for them, if there's a rule they don't like or isn't in their best interest it just gets ignored.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 11:58
Is there a specific rule we've implemented that's bothered you? Will it actually go if we leave and maintain regulatory alignment? Is it really worth leaving the country for? Do you not think you'll find similar rules elsewhere?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 12:26
Quote:
Man from LA
No, GB & NI are legally bound to remain in the Customs Union/Internal Market if there is no deal.

Go on, show me that law because you must be privy to more information than us simple folk.

Because the agreement says:
"The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-
island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement."


Quote:
Man from LA
And it was Farage championing the Norway model up until the referendum.

Haha, nice one. Shall I post the McGrory clip again?

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 13:26
Is the point of your argument that "remain in" is different to "full alignment"?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 13:45
As has been said, they key is:

"In the absence of agreed solutions..."

Agreeing a solution will be extremely hard, inevitably detrimental one way or the other and there's little political will on any side to do it. So I don't think we're going to see an agreed solution.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 13:53
Sorry but this is balls.

The Conservative Party has always prized individualism rather than the collectivism of Labour. That is why there has always been a broad range of views expressed by Conservative members. This is expected, not just tolerated. As a person who has just been reselected by the Conservative Party on it’s approved candidates list I can say this is one of the things that attracts me most to Conservstism. It doesn’t demand that you conform to a single point of view. And I have rebelled against the party, locally and nationally, on quite a few occasions because I’m not easily moved from my convictions.

Having said that, Anna Soubry is going to be having some interesting discussions with Broxtowe Conservative Association about her re-selection, bearing in mind they voted to leave with 70 per cent. She originally defected from the Lib Dems and I expect her to be heading back to them.

Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
OutsideBath
The Tory rebels who voted against their government should have the guts to resign as MP's and force a bye election.

Against Their government but for Parliament and democracy

Democracy? They are just doing everything possible to keep us in the EU and has nothing to do with democracy. I've felt all along that the liberals won't allow us to leave the EU and this is just part of their plan.

If they can't support the government they have no place in the Tory party.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 13:57
Quote:
Man from LA
Quote:
Substitute
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Boldangrey
Isn’t the point that Parliament will only vote on the negotiated solution.
If they vote ‘No’ it will not be re-negotiated so the alternative will be leave with no deal i.e. Hard Brexit.

Am I wrong?

I thought we'd just agreed to a legally binding promise of no hard border in Ireland, so we have to be in the customs union, at the very least.

We'd align regulations in the areas identified (number varies) as having cross-border impact.

It is also currently part of the final deal (i.e. the Article 50 withdrawal).

Also I hear many Remainers talking about the Norway model. I hear none talking about the Turkey model.

No, GB & NI are legally bound to remain in the Customs Union/Internal Market if there is no deal. You've been listening to David Davis again.

This is totally untrue.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 14:07
I agree there is a distinction between maintaining regulatory alignment and remaining in the customs union, but once you've done the former I can't really see any point in doing the latter.

If we can't have a trade deal with the US (or anyone else), because we can't import chlorinated chicken (or whatever) because that chicken could then pass into the EU unregulated. And we can't really stop EU migrants because we can't have a border in Ireland or between NI and the the rest of the UK. Then what's the point in not being in the customs union?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 14:13
Quote:
malco
Sorry but this is balls.

Classy as ever Malco



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 14:24
I find it amazing that, despite 2 years of all the arguments and analysis by very well educated people all over Europe and the world, there is still this amount of disagreement! There STILL appears to be almost no consensus on what is 'good' or 'bad' or required or not, or even what will happen.

For those of you debating above (and as I am an ignoramus on these things) is it just that people have become entrenched, or are there too many variables to the degree that it is not actually possible to answer the questions that people are asking? Is it all just one massive 'suck it an see' exercise?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 14:39
In the referendum thread Malco (reflecting the Brexit campaign) told people to vote with their hearts not their heads. Sadly many people did. The result is we're attempting to do something that doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny but none the less has a lot of flag waving and passion behind it.

Yes people are entrenched and it is complex, but I don't think that is fundamentally the problem.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 15:45
Quote:
DanWiley
The result is we're attempting to do something that doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny but none the less has a lot of flag waving and passion behind it.
Yes people are entrenched and it is complex, but I don't think that is fundamentally the problem.

Leaving the European is perfectly logical as displayed by the many countries that aren't in and don't wish to join. But it won't appear that way if you view it through the prism that only economic predictions matter.

But then you expressed sympathy for a Corbyn government (no idea of you voted that way) and all the economic predictions were negative for that scenario, so how is that logical?

So yes I think it goes to show that it has become a matter of identity and that both sides have become entrenched.

Those on one side who feel that the wisdom of the elite should prevail and those who feel the wisdom of the masses should prevail. Both imply the other side can't be trusted and both act in an untrustworthy manner.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 16:25
I don't think I've ever advocated a corbyn government, I find his election deeply troubling on a number of levels.

I think they're are plenty of countries that would choose to be in the EU if the EU and geography allowed. The only ones I can think that wouldn't are either: dictatorships, already part of a economy of that scale or just couldn't feasibly be a part on grounds of geography.

Which countries comparable to the uk that you would want us to emulate don't want to be part of the EU?

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 17:07
Quote:
malco
I’m happy for our Parliament to be sovereign. The problem will be if the MPs who votes to remain in the EU choose to defy their constituents and enforce their personal will on them by frustrating the process. If that happens it will definitely lead to a constitutional crisis that would have very far reaching implications.

I agree with you that it should not be used as a technical blocking mechanism to prevent "the will of the people".

I think it's entirely legitimate for it to be used as a mechanism to ascertain the will of the people, as it will stand at the end of 2018 in the exact knowledge of the options in front of us.

It would not be re-running the referendum, but instead asking a new and very different question: Should we

a) Accept the deal then negotiated by the Government and leave the EU on those terms
b) Reject the deal and leave the EU with no deal
c) Reject the deal, cancel the Article 50 process and remain in the EU

There is no room in my view for a "send Theresa back to renegotiate" option which some are talking about, that couldn't work.

Personally I would prefer Parliament to make that choice, that's their job, but the 2016 referendum has prevented MPs from acting according to their beliefs or listening to rational arguments on either side. Basically it's prevented Parliament from acting independently, so with extreme regret I think the only thing that can end up with an open
debate is another referendum. sad smiley



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
14 December, 2017 17:10
Quote:
DanWiley
As has been said, they key is:
"In the absence of agreed solutions..."

Agreeing a solution will be extremely hard, inevitably detrimental one way or the other and there's little political will on any side to do it. So I don't think we're going to see an agreed solution.

Where the thing gets entirely circular is when you remember that is there is no "agreed solution" then that paragraph itself falls because "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed".



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Yorkie
Yorkie (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 09:38
Quote:
malco
Quote:
Substitute
I was responding to CC telling the Brexiteers to get their act together for the umpteenth time...
I quite agree, but it was Phillip Hammond who rejected discussions about the end state. It's no great surprise - more than half the cabinet and more than half the Brexit committee are opposed to Brexit.

It needed a government who believed in Brexit - yes, there would be differences but they would be reconcilable. For the majority of this cabinet that are not reconcilable and they'll never be able to contribute to a better Brexit outcome in any meaningful sense.

There is some enduring confusion over the position of the government which is being deliberately perpetuated by people who wish to undermine them.

The Conservative Party took a neutral position on the referendum. It allowed members to argue for and against, according to their personal view. Anybody suggesting that the Conservative Party was pro or anti leaving the EU is wrong. The party has always valued individual freedom of thought and expression.

However, the Conservative Government was pro Remain. Cameron and Osborne campaigned to Remain and urged the British people to vote to Remain. They sent a taxpayer funded leaflet, imploring people to vote Remain, through every door in the country.

The Leave campaign was not a political party and was not the government. So people who suggest that Leave campaign slogans were promises are either ignorant or deliberately untruthful. The Leave campaign could not promise anything because it effectively ceased to exist the moment the last vote was cast.

Only the government could make promises because only the government had the ability to deliver promises. The government campaigned to Remain and failed to plan for the eventuality of a Leave vote because it didn't believe people would vote to Leave and the leaders had no intention of sticking around to implement Brexit in the unlikely event that it did.

So people criticising the government for not planning Brexit before the referendum are spectacularly missing the point.

The government has to implement the will of the people if it is not to be held in contempt of democracy by the people. Since the referendum the Conservative Party has had to take responsibility for implementing Brexit. People moaning about the Conservative Party implementing Brexit are really just moaning about democracy. What else is a Government supposed to do after a referendum?

MPs voted 6-1 to implement A50 because they understood this. That is ALL politicians from ALL parties, not just the Conservatives.

So, what do we want from a deal with the EU? We need to have control of our borders and legislature because these are things that have clearly influenced large numbers of people to vote to leave the EU. We need freedom to estabish our own free trade deals globally, rather than just give preference to countries in the EU.

The single market and the customs union are beneficial arrangements made by the EU for its members. The EU itself has said that leaving the EU means leaving the customs union and the single market. So what we need is to set up our own relationship with the EU so that it provides all the benefits of access to the single market without membership and our own customs agreement that doesn't impinge the free movement of goods between the UK and EU member countries. There is no reason why these things cannot be negotiated, they are mutually beneficial to the UK and the EU and desired by business.

We needed to guarantee the rights of people from the EU here and have guarantees for the rights of British people living in the EU and we needed to face the responsibility for funding the financial commitments we have made. We need to have a good trade deal if possible but it takes two parties to negotiate a contract. No matter how much we want a deal, we can't have one if the other party decides, for whatever reason, that it doesn't want one.

If the EU won't agree to a free trade deal we don't need to pay a financial settlement because we will have no benefits from membership and therefore will not need to pay for something that we do not receive. It is that simple. Countries all over the world trade with each other seamlessly on WTO rules and all of the Remainer talk of punitive tariffs and sanctions is ridiculous scaremongering nonsense.

I don't believe it will come to this because of the mutual benefits of negotiating a free trade deal, access to the single market and a customs agreement.

Our government knows this, the EU knows this and the only people who deny this are those angry and resentful ideological pro EU propagandists who cannot face the idea of everything going well and the UK prospering outside the EU.



Whilst I can't believe you guys are still actually banging on about this, the above is a great post and one of the most accurate and level headed, unbiased summaries of the situation I've read. A majority of the population in the UK have voted to leave something that we never voted to go into so that must happen. Simple.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 09:52
Quote:
TCM2007
Quote:
DanWiley
As has been said, they key is:
"In the absence of agreed solutions..."

Agreeing a solution will be extremely hard, inevitably detrimental one way or the other and there's little political will on any side to do it. So I don't think we're going to see an agreed solution.

Where the thing gets entirely circular is when you remember that is there is no "agreed solution" then that paragraph itself falls because "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed".

Reports today suggest the next phase isn't "negotiate trade deal" but is actually "turn what's been agreed so far into a legally binding contract". I assume the EU will encourage Theresa to sign this before we get very far into trade talks. This protects the default position of "no Irish border". I doubt this would be happening if Davies wasn't such a tool.

 
Yorkie
Yorkie (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 09:59
BSI, who are responsible for involvement in the writing of EN standards and then publishing them as BS EN standards, have already said that they intend continuing with their "standards" relationship within Europe.

Having been involved in British/European standards for 20 years as a UK expert, I've sat in meetings where non-EU members Switzerland and Norway have had a equal say and vote for many years. Indeed, as their country and industry are willing to invest in their industry, Norway always send more people to the European group meetings.

There is no need to change any European standards (unless we want to) as these are already in law and published as British Standards. BSI have said that they will continue to do this.

The original concept of the "Common Market" was to remove trade barriers across Europe so that businesses would only need to meet the demands of a single pan-Europe standard. Most of these standards took years of horse trading to write and usually ended up being pitched at the lowest denominator for performance standards. A lot of countries would add their own suplementary performance benchmarks to these common pan-European standards' performance benchmarks which was never in the spirit of the whole process and against CEN rules plus Germany has a habit of not even publishing a standard thus retaining their old DIN standard with no sanction. As the European trading dream has been hijacked by the politicians who want to rule from Europe (unelected by the way), some standards have also been hijacked by their political agenda which is bending them so far away from their original ethos and intention so as to make them unworkable.

So, standards which exist in Europe no longer applying in the UK is a falsehood. Unless, over the next few years, we decide to change our standards to upgrade them back to where they once were!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/12/2017 10:30 by Yorkie.

 
malco
malco (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 10:14
This is a point I have made on several occasions. BSI were clients of mine for years. We will adopt EN standards but then we have the ability to improve these standards subsequent to Brexit, so that BSI standards exceed them. This will give British companies a significant competitive advantage.

Quote:
Yorkie
BSI, who are responsible for involvement in the writing of EN standards and then publishing them as BS EN standards, have already said that they intend continuing with their "standards" relationship within Europe.
Having been involved in British/European standards for 20 years as a UK expert, I've sat in meetings where non-EU members Switzerland and Norway have had a equal say and vote for many years. Indeed, as their country and industry are willing to invest in their industry, Norway always send more people to the European group meetings.

There is no need to change any European standards (unless we want to) as these are already in law and published as British Standards. BSI have said that they will continue to do this.

The original concept of the "Common Market" was to remove trade barriers across Europe so that businesses would only need to meet the demands of a single pan-Europe standard. Most of these standards took years of horse trading to write and usually ended up being pitched at the lowest denominator for performance standards. A lot of countries would add their own suplementary performance benchmarks to these common pan-European standards' performance benchmarks which was never in the spirit of the whole process and against CEN rules plus Germany has a habit of not even publishing a standard thus retaining their old DIN standard with no sanction. As the European trading dream has been hijacked by the politicians who want to rule from Europe (unelected by the way), some standards have also been hijacked by their political agenda which is bending them so far away from their original ethos and intention so as to make them unworkable.

So, standards which exist in Europe no longer applying in the UK is a falsehood. Unless, over the next few years, we decide to change our standards to upgrade them back to where they once were!

 
Yorkie
Yorkie (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 10:23
Quote:
OutsideBath
Lets face it this whole Brexit thing is entirely the fault of faceless unelected UK civil servants with their overzealous implementation of Brussels guidelines. The only one's to really profit from Brexit are our attention seeking MP's and lawyers.
The French/Spanish have entirely the right way of making the EU work for them, if there's a rule they don't like or isn't in their best interest it just gets ignored.

So true!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/12/2017 11:51 by Yorkie.

 
Yorkie
Yorkie (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 10:41
Quote:
OutsideBath
Also I am hoping to see Bath win something before potentially leaving.

Going to be sticking around for quite some time then?!

(Sm14) (Sm159)

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 11:31
Dear Mr Wiley

I was in an investment meeting yesterday when the subject of PRIIPS came up, I am not going to waste vital seconds of everybody's life by explaining exactly what they are but they are imposed by the EU and they are designed to give retail investors more information on funds.......on the face of it all good.

However they are so complicated and unrealistic that even a young person on our staff with a 1st in Maths is unable to understand them. Pretty much every investment company is having outsource their production at a cost of up to £20,000 and a six monthly monitoring charge.

I believe that in time maybe as many as one person in a million will read them!

Whilst this is EU imposed, as ever the problem is the UK bodies implement them.

A few years ago on the league table of EU Directive compliance the UK were the most compliant and guess who were the bottom two........France and Germany!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 11:41
"However they are so complicated and unrealistic that even a young person on our staff with a 1st in Maths is unable to understand them."

So? I work with plenty of young first class engineers, physicists and computer scientists that struggle with concepts we work with. Yes, its the nature of my industry, but I don't see why yours would be so different? But if they didn't struggle we'd sack all the experienced staff and just use graduates.


"A few years ago on the league table of EU Directive compliance the UK were the most compliant and guess who were the bottom two........France and Germany!"

So what your saying is that our government chooses to be particularly compliant.

Generally, this is the sort of bureaucracy that comes out of government. The UK government is no different and it won't be once we leave.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: OT/ Brexit
15 December, 2017 12:27
Mr Wiley I am at a loss for words at your reply!

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