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by (IP Logged)

Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 22:05
[www.bathchronicle.co.uk]

Apparently he signed with the club on the agreement that he would be available for all future Welsh games.

I hope Gatland chooses to rest him instead of using him in a nonsense development match as Bath will definitely want to play him throughout December.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 22:20
He got rested two games ago.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 22:32
Torygraph says that this is in contravention of Premiership rules and that it could result in a fine and points deduction for us. Gee thanks Toby.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 22:44
So how does that fit with the AP or is that in the contract? As TG Kesmo pointed out on the Sarries Exeter thread, don't we get fined if we release players outside the window?

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 23:25
Saints set the precedent - isnt it £50k as a one-off fine, never to be mentioned again.

Of course, it should be that for every match released for, increasing for repeat offenders, and counting within the salary cap.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/11/2017 23:27 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 23:32
Quote:
Which Tyler
Saints set the precedent - isnt it £50k as a one-off fine, never to be mentioned again.
Of course, it should be that for every match released for, increasing for repeat offenders, and counting within the salary cap.

60k and potentially going all the way to a points deduction. I think we have to be careful here, especially as Flouw has been released back to us by SA.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
27 November, 2017 23:46
Possible solution any game played outside the international window is a friendly, no caps and therefore is allowed but not a Wales game and therefore not for inclusion in any player contract. Personally I think that would stop the practice pretty quickly.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 00:27
It's a stupid rule. The club employs Faletau, they're the ones losing him for a (key) match, they should decide if they're willing to release him.

Im sure if it was taking the @#$%& (like 10 extra internationals) the club would just say no, but it should be the clubs decision and if keeps players like Toby happy and playing in the Prem then it's a small prixe to pay.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 06:33
Quote:
Substitute
It's a stupid rule. The club employs Faletau, they're the ones losing him for a (key) match, they should decide if they're willing to release him.
Im sure if it was taking the @#$%& (like 10 extra internationals) the club would just say no, but it should be the clubs decision and if keeps players like Toby happy and playing in the Prem then it's a small prixe to pay.

Great post Substitute, agree 100%

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 06:44
So let me get this right. We release Faletau for a Wales friendly as he demanded that when he signed. As a result we are about 30% less likely to beat Exeter. In addition he comes back from the match needing a rest & possibly nursing a niggle. That not being enough we not only face a substantial fine but since it is such a dastardly offence maybe a points deduction meaning we are even less likely to finish in the top 4/6. Sounds like a win win situation for everyone (Sm161)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 06:45 by Bath Hammer.

 
redmix
redmix (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 07:51
Isn't it also against IRB regulations/laws/rules for clubs to prevent a player pursuing their international career? Or does that go if the international match is outside the official window?

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 08:57
I expect the fine was costed into Toby's contract to secure his Bath move. The points deduction is more of a worry! Maybe looking at the long term Toby will extend his stay with us as a result of our magnanimity!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
john fox
johnnyf (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:02
Why oh why would Bath choose to (yet again) get involved in the personal requirements of one individual player?
Haven't we had enough controversy in that department already?

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:05
They should throw the book at us, if we do this.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:06
I accept that in most players minds country comes before club & so it should but this match against SA is a friendly in which Wales have various options in the back row. By contrast Bath have two crucial matches approaching for which we need our best players in order to compete & in which Faletau would make a major difference. I would have liked to think he would have asked to be released for this match & focused on his club, especially as, though fit(?) to play for Wales last year, he was absent injured for the first half of our season. In other words, he sort of owes us one.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:07
Perhaps he would be willing to split the difference, 30K to play in a friendly?. Alternatively a Flouw and a Toby both missing it should cancel each other out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 09:07 by woodpecker.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:10
Quote:
cb2
They should throw the book at us, if we do this.

I presume you are being sarcastic cb2? I could understand them throwing the book at us if we did all we could to stop players representing their country, not the other way round. Maybe we shouldn’t have accepted such a clause in his contract but if we hadn’t he probably wouldn’t have signed for us.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:12
He prefers Taulupe.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:18
Quote:
Rawce
He prefers Taulupe.

I was going to write that but I knew how to spell Toby

 
nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:20
Quote:
cb2
They should throw the book at us, if we do this.

I don't understand this comment at all?? We employ TF and if we choose to release him what the f**k has that got to do with anyone else. In the commercial world if you get seconded to another organisation and both sides agree to it it is no-one else's business what is in the details of the contract.

Premiership rugby would be better off focusing their energy on working out why there are so many HIA's going on and do something about player welfare.

 
MESSAGES->author
JimDaff (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:22
Surely we would have negotiated that the WRU pay the fine, if they want to play him they have to pay for the luxury!

 
wombles222
wombles222 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 09:52
Problem is chaps that last year it was confirmed that this practice was not allowed by PRL as the WRFU does not have agreements in place such as the RFU and PRL have. We say Toby may of had this written in his contract, well that may well be, the problem is that Bath would of agreed to the conditions set down by PRL, and thus entered into an agreement on the rules as set. This means that just like Northampton it breaks a rule they would of known about. Either way you cut it it is distastful as it shows complete disregard to rules and authority of the PRL, and also could prove detremental to Baths league hopes if the league decide to dock points as a financial fine may not be enough to dissuade further breaches.
Perosnally i want all players of all nations to achieve their international ambitions and be released for international duty. However to do it this way and willingly break rules is poor form.

 
grunter
grunter (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 10:21
Northampton Saints were fined £60,000 by Premiership Rugby for releasing George North to Wales outside the international 'window', and Gloucester effectively lost Quera because they complied with the policy and didn’t agree to a release, resulting in him leaving the club.

The policy prohibiting Premiership clubs from releasing players outside the window is still in place, so what will happen to Bath? Are they prepared to pay any fine imposed or is Bruce Craig confident that he can bully the board into changing policies whenever it suits him? It will be fascinating to hear the outcome of this. Now we will see if there is any consistency in the way that certain clubs are dealt with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 10:22 by grunter.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 10:30
It's a tough one. The PRL negotiated very hard with the RFU to pay for player access outside the window. That is massively undermined by our releasing players without that equivalent deal in place. If we signed this contract in knowing breach of that regulation then we should expect sanction.

Frankly they really shouldn't allow these internationals to happen outside the window. For Wales or England.

 
BathMan in Oxford
BathMan in Oxford (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 10:38
Spot on Hasta

From the club’s perspective I would imagine that they thought at the time of signing TFs contract then the terms of engagement between the premiership and WRU would have been sorted out by now. It has not and so Bath are faced with options

1. Refuse to release TF and run the risk that the player is forced back to Wales to continue his international career either within or without contract.

2. Allow TF to play and face the consequences form the EPL.

Clearly WRU/EPL etc need to sort this out once and for all but in the short term I think the club have made the correct decision and we will need to win at Exeter without him.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 10:52
Quote:
Bath Man In Oxford
Spot on Hasta
From the club’s perspective I would imagine that they thought at the time of signing TFs contract then the terms of engagement between the premiership and WRU would have been sorted out by now. It has not and so Bath are faced with options

1. Refuse to release TF and run the risk that the player is forced back to Wales to continue his international career either within or without contract.

2. Allow TF to play and face the consequences form the EPL.

Clearly WRU/EPL etc need to sort this out once and for all but in the short term I think the club have made the correct decision and we will need to win at Exeter without him.

3. Both parties agree that TF is *******ed after all the rugby he has played and will be rested for this next weekend.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 10:53
It seems we are in a lose lose situation rather like the Irish border issue. Maybe Toby isnt too bothered about playing for Wales in this match & agrees to play for us. The only loser then would be Garland.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 11:54
The rules are quite clear, and we signed up to them. Clubs have been warned off doing this in the past by financial penalty. It maybe hasn't worked, so if we let him go I would expect a points deduction.

If it is only a fine, then this fine must surely come out of our salary cap.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 11:55
Shouldn’t Wales be trying out new 8s for the World Cup anyway? The Georgian experiment didn’t go too well.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 12:12
When we signed TF and also agreed the PRL rules, we must have known of the possibility of being sanctioned and rightly so.

Frankly, I can see us getting hit by a bigger fine as the example of rule breaking was shown by Saints, for other sides to heed in the future. Mind you a fine has to be better than any points deduction in a season when every point is vital to get into Europe and with the league being so tight this year. That would be catastrophic.

Going forward, should we not get Toby to sign a new contract, removing his release clause for every Wales games, as it is going to take a big change of heart for PRL to change its rules. I believe it is worth giving Toby a contract extension anyway, no doubt for a rise in salary, as he is one of the best players in his position in the World.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 12:19
"If it is only a fine, then this fine must surely come out of our salary cap."

What would be the point? There's two possibilities: either we have £60k of cap spare and can cover it, in which case what was the point, just take the £60k and forget about the cap? Or We don't, will go over the cap and get hammered for going over the cap.

The latter case is sort of fine, but then why not just give us that penalty and not give us (or any other team) the easy out of just happening to have £60k left in the cap?

£60k out of next year's cap might be an option but, given the chance to plan, what's £60k in £7 million?

 
Esteemed
Defends (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 13:33
I find Fatetau's decision rather disconcerting. He must have known the problems caused, especially the possible loss of points, which Bath cannot afford. The Match against S.Africa
is largely irrelevant and is just being used as a money spinner by Welsh Rugby. Faletau should consider who is paying him a large lump of money. I can't believe his team mates will be too enamoured. In my view Zach Mercer is a better bet, especially in the longer term.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 13:38
Last year the Premiership waived the rule and allowed Welsh players to be released for the extra week. I've seen no announcement about whether they have done the same this year, but even if they haven't I doubt they will impose a fine.

But this is a Premiership Rugby issue - we are members and shreholders of Premiership Rugby and need to stand by the collective decisions of the group in the best interests of the game.

It's the Welsh taking the P here by organizing games outside the internationally agreed windows, which endanger the value in what the RFU pay the Premiership to secure additional release beyond the "legal" minimum. The RFU pay for three (?) extra weeks of access to the players; if we give Wales one "free" why should they do that?



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 13:44
They waived the rule last year because it clashed with AW Cup, not Prem.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 14:20
I don't think any of the parties involved come out too well in this situation.

Wales are totally disregarding player health by arranging yet another pointless friendly just for additional revenue. Clearly they don't care about player fatigue and burn out.

TF isn't being particularly loyal to Bath by putting us in a difficult situation to play in this match,

Bath are deliberately disregarding PL rules which begs the question what other rules don't we like that we'll choose to ignore in the future?

Clearly the fine isn't enough to stop this from happening so the PL should increase it for the 1st offence then go straight to points deduction for the 2nd.

The IRB should also take some form of action against Wales for arranging matches outside of the agreed international window,



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Hamptonite
Hamptonite (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 14:57
I’m going to have to let the Club sort this one out.
Bath Rugby, Toby and his agent, are the only ones who know what his Club contract states and I’m sure they’ve been talking about this issue to all parties for several weeks now.

Personally, I’d have a world class player such as Faletau any day of the week and if he misses one game but is such a massive presence in all the others he plays in for us, I’ll take it!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 15:12
Ethically, I think the club deserve a points fine for this. Clear and blatant disregard of a proven rule.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 15:27
Quote:
TCM2007

It's the Welsh taking the P here by organizing games outside the internationally agreed windows, which endanger the value in what the RFU pay the Premiership to secure additional release beyond the "legal" minimum. The RFU pay for three (?) extra weeks of access to the players; if we give Wales one "free" why should they do that?

Quote:
OutsideBath
The IRB should also take some form of action against Wales for arranging matches outside of the agreed international window,

Not sure you realise the state of Welsh rugby, the fact is the regions are broke, they rely on the WRU to top up their bank accounts, to this end the WRU have to have the extra income to do so. I don't think if the regions had decent attendances they would arrange the extra fixture.

Bath RFC are incredibly lucky to have the attendances they do. Wales struggles to manage to maintain 4 regions with the Dragons centrally funded and Cardiff Blues not that far off.

There is in my view a real possibility of regional rugby in Wales collapsing.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 15:36
"Ethically, I think the club deserve a points fine for this. Clear and blatant disregard of a proven rule."

I think I agree, but i also think they should take it making the point that whilst they have few legs to stand on, the nations arranging these fixtures -should- also be in the firing line.

 
grunter
grunter (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 18:03
I see that Glaws have not sanctioned Owen Williams to remain with Wales this week but have chosen to rest him for their fixture this Saturday against London Irish. It's a shame that all clubs and their owners can't just abide by the rules that they have previously signed up to.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 20:45
I'm sure it's contractual. Bath wouldn't have got Faletau's signature without an explicit release clause, but Glaws would have got Williams as he wasn't/isn't a regular international. Which doesn't make Bath agreeing that contract right.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 21:05
Stewth there’s some self flagellation on ere tonight; ‘throw the book at us’, ‘deduct points from us’. What next ? Individual fines for supporters, 3 months in jail for Todd ?

The issue here is contractual and means that potentially the AP’s intellectual property is diminished because TF isn’t available. We haven’t cheated another team, broken any laws, impacted player welfare, or sought to gain an unfair advantage. Given this any remedy would surely have to be financial if not to move into the realm of the absurd.

Let’s also not forget that it’s Bath and Bath supporters have most to lose here. Mercer may be a star in the making but he’s not yet the best no. 8 in the Northern Hemisphere.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 21:16
Quote:
We haven’t cheated another team, broken any laws, impacted player welfare, or sought to gain an unfair advantage

We have clearly broken the rules of the competition we play in given the contract we signed with Faletau. Which is cheating. I don't want us to be deducted points, but it would be ridiculously hypocritical to ignore this. Screw my club right or wrong. I want Bath to win. I want Faletau to play for Bath, he's absolute class. Frankly I think whatever punishment we end up with is probably going to be less than the value we get from him. That just means we've arbitraged the rules.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 23:00
Does this mean we would be being punished for failing to field an eligible player? smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 23:00 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 23:09
How about agreeing to release for all international games but ask the player concerned to pay whatever fine is imposed by PRL, or 100k per point deducted.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 23:24
Well, it seems unlikely that a player would agree to that.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 23:31
Quote:
Hamptonite
Personally, I’d have a world class player such as Faletau any day of the week and if he misses one game but is such a massive presence in all the others he plays in for us, I’ll take it!

Yes - so would I, but this is the direct opposite of that. As a club we are being penalised for allowing him to miss a match to play for his country & may even suffer a points deduction. That is effectively getting punished twice! If we insisted on playing him we wouldn’t be punished but apparently have a contractural obligation to do so & the player himself is going along with it. Seems grossly unfair to me.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
28 November, 2017 23:44
Quote:
hasta
Well, it seems unlikely that a player would agree to that.

... and your point would be?

smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Raggs
Raggs (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 07:16
The law is in place to stop strong clubs from being able to offer extra incentives outside of the salary cap, that weaker ones couldn't. Wuss or Irish would know they cannot afford to be without such a top player for a game. In addition financially strong clubs with better depth could also use it as a negotiating tool, and that is also not available to all clubs.

Furthermore, financially strong clubs have less of a need for the RFU payments that are made, to secure release of players for internationals outside the window. If foreign unions are given that benefit for free, the RFU can argue against making those payments in the future. No problem for the rich, big problem for the less so.

So in the interests of fair play, like the salary cap, the clubs agreed to non-release outside the window. Of course, like the salary cap, not all clubs have chosen to play by the agreed rules.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 08:01
I think it's not about the unions not being able to arrange a fixture whenever they want and then saying to the clubs "are you going to stop him in his international ambitions?"

If the unions were able to do this the club's would be in a weaker position to negotiate with the unions and the premiership product would be poorer.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 09:46
We' (may) have broken a commercial regulation of the competition but we haven't broken a rule that has anything to do with fairness or the integrity of the competition. Expect a fine. If we were to receive a points penalty this will escalate quickly and probably leave TF in an untenable position.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 09:57
I think it is breaching the competitive nature of the competition. Other clubs would probably have loved to sign TF, but didn't as they weren't prepared to break the rules. We broke the rule and got a competitive advantage.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 10:40
Maybe they'll kick us out of the competition for choosing not to play (arguably) our best player against Exe and instead letting him play for his country. Think of the pleasure that will give the hair shirt wearers on this site.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 11:07
I don't see there is any problem in wanting our club to do the right thing. We have clearly not done this so far and it has turned into a mess. If we want to take a moral stand in the future on some important issues, then these sorts of things do not help. I would have expected better from Bath.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 11:13
I think you're being a bit unfair on us beergoogles. It seems clear that we've done the wrong thing. That disappoints me a bit and I certainly would feel rather hypocritical saying we should be let off. I don't think I would say that if it were another club, I don't think I did when it was saints.

Some some level, I don't think the attitude we've adopted is actually helpful to us as a club and I suppose if a bit hit makes us change I think that might be a good thing.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 11:32
This from the Times yesterday (£8 for 2 months:


Taulupe Faletau trained with Wales yesterday after turning down a financial incentive from Bath not to play against South Africa in the final match of their autumn series.

Bath expect to be fined £60,000 by Premiership Rugby because the league’s rules prohibit clubs from releasing players for international fixtures that are arranged outside of the official World Rugby window, such as Saturday’s match at the Principality Stadium. But Faletau had a full release clause written into his contract when he signed for Bath two years ago because he wanted to make sure that he was always available for Wales.

The 27-year-old No 8 found himself caught in the middle, as Bath wanted him to play against Exeter Chiefs on Saturday and are understood to have sought to strike a deal for him to stand down from international duty. However, Faletau linked up with the Wales squad as planned and will be a key figure if Warren Gatland’s team are to end their autumn with a victory over the Springboks, having lost to Australia and New Zealand.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 11:55
Well the club have obviously tried their best to avert the fine, but our (present) player has chosen his country over his employers. I fully appreciate the desire for all players to represent their country in a relatively short career, but club loyalty must come in here somewhere. As exceptional as Mr F is, I am disappointed by his choice. The club have already released him for 3 other AIs no doubt on full salary plus he earns his Wales match fee. As the Welsh arranged this fixture, wouldn't it be nice if they offered to pay half our fine? (Flying pink pigs just come into view.)

IMV we should never sign any player, I don't care how good he might be, on such an arrangement again. Also, I hope he comes back uninjured and his rareing to go the following week against Toulon!!

Also, I expect the fine to be greater than £60k as it was a warning shot by the authorities not to break the rules we signed up for, and sincerely hope it doesn't extend to a points deduction.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:15
"turning down a financial incentive from Bath"

I didn't think we were allowed to do anything to discourage players playing for their country?

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:18
I don’t think this is a question of loyalty, Faletau signed for Bath based on various conditions, in what was at the time reported to be a pretty tight contest between Dragons/WRU and Bath.
It sounds like this release clause was an important part so signing a player of his ability and Bath must have thought it worthwhile, even knowing the punishment Saints had previously received for doing the same thing. And Bath will have known since the contract was signed that this was a possibility.
If the club then tried to renegotiate the clause that’s fine, but there is not reason the player has to accept it.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:18
I too am disappointed by the players choice. He has nothing to prove with Wales and leaves us in a very difficult situation.

If the Wales match is outside the window then too bad on them. Any points deduction could lead to a bad feeling in the Bath team, hopefully common sense will prevail regarding any punishment.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:22
I can't blame a player for wanting to play for "his" country, even if it is Wales.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:41
Quote:
DanWiley
I can't blame a player for wanting to play for "his" country, even if it is Wales.

Agree Dan, as a club we must have known this was always a possibility. I think Faletau is worried he might loose his place as an exile if he didn't play. With Moriarty and North returning to the regions he has to be seen to be available.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:47
I doubt TF choosing to play for Wales when he should be with Bath is going to sit well with the rest of the squad.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:51
Quote:
DanWiley
I can't blame a player for wanting to play for "his" country, even if it is Wales.

I can, it's not as if it's even a real country

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 12:53
I doubt TF choosing to play for Bath when he should be with Wales is going to sit well with the rest of the squad.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 13:01
Dan whether it sits well with the Welsh squad is not the point. He has signed a contract with Bath who employ him. The WRU do not!

Other English based Welsh squad members are not ostracised for playing for their employer's, ie their clubs so why would TF?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 13:06
I have zero problem with a professional executing their responsibilities as contracted.

 
Saturnine
Cowshed Denizen (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 13:18
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
DanWiley
I can't blame a player for wanting to play for "his" country, even if it is Wales.

I can, it's not as if it's even a real country

Now you're being a dick, woodpecker. Please stop.

Dan, would you put the "his" in inverted commas if you were talking about Vunipola? Or Te'o? Or Hughes? Etc...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 13:43
Cowshed: Yep.

"Dan whether it sits well with the Welsh squad is not the point. He has signed a contract with Bath who employ him. The WRU do not! "


2 points. First, he's signed a contract with the club, not the squad, so why does it have to fit well with the Bath squad either on that basis? Second, he's signed a contract that specifically allows him to do this.

 
Saturnine
Cowshed Denizen (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 13:52
Quote:
DanWiley
Cowshed: Yep.
"Dan whether it sits well with the Welsh squad is not the point. He has signed a contract with Bath who employ him. The WRU do not! "


2 points. First, he's signed a contract with the club, not the squad, so why does it have to fit well with the Bath squad either on that basis? Second, he's signed a contract that specifically allows him to do this.

Really? Faletau has grown up and learned his rugby in Wales (as have the Vunipolas, incidentally) so why the need for inverted commas? He's not a residency poach.

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 13:53
Some people seem upset when they believe contracts are not “honoured”, now we have people upset that they are... Strange world.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 14:01
I accept it was a bit of a jibe and there wasn't a "need" for them, but still in a way many would consider fairly fundamental, he isn't Welsh.

I really wasn't on a fishing expedition when I put them in so I really would get so caught on it. Or we can have a discussion about the joke that nationality is these days, but that's probably for a different thread.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 14:20
Quote:
dcsh
Some people seem upset when they believe contracts are not “honoured”, now we have people upset that they are... Strange world.
Are we?
Personally I'm upset that the contract was offered in the first place despite knowing that we weren't allowed to do so.
Mind you, some people do seem to think k that Taulupe should be more loyal to a club he joined be wise of £££ than to the country he grew up in and who developed him and that he calls home...

@Dan Wiley - you mentioned a couple of times about encouraging a player to miss international matches - that's inside the international window, not outside it. It Fotuali'i that could see us in trouble for that this year (withdraws from the Samoa squad as he's too I hired to play... starts for us instead).

Back to Faletau:
PRL have a very lucrative deal with the RFU for player release for the 4th AI every other year.
If clubs show willing to release the players anyway, then why should the RFU continue to be so generous? Clubs unilaterally breaking PRL rules in order to get the players for cheaper weaken the hand of the entire PRL in future EPS negotiations.

I also stand by what I said when Saints were fined; the EPS sets a price on release per player and per match (about £90k IIRC - which I may not). The fine should be MORE than that value not less.

The fine is also essentially in lieu of salary for the player (eg, I'm sure we could have had Taulupe remove that release clause if we'd agreed to pay him a larger salary) so any fine should count inside the salary cap as the release clause is essentially a way of cheating the cap. If that fine puts a club over the salary cap, then further sanctions should follow, and that's just thought for signing a contract you knew you weren't allowed to - and that's the point where league point reductions should come into play.

IMO the fine should be £90k for every time the player is released (not just one and done ala North); and this fine should count within the salary cap. Sanctions should also escalate pour encourage les autres.
So the hearing should clarify that the fine increase by 50% for each successive breach. So the next club to offer this dispensation gets hit with £135k for each match missed, and the 4th club gets £202k etc, all within the salary cap.

I would accept Bath getting £60k for each match, with the escalation each being that it applies to every time we release him outside of IRB9, with future escalations of fine built in.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/11/2017 14:24 by Which Tyler.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 16:29
All told this is a ridiculous position to be in.

Out of interest do the AP get site of player contracts at the point of registration or is that seen as commercial in confidence ?

I also assume Bath took legal advice and consciously signed a contract with TF knowing it broke the AP contract which must mean they know in advance what the penalty will be.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 17:31
But it keeps being said, precedent has been set, Saints were fined £60k for George North... total for the course of his employment (not even per-contract).
If PRL do anything other than fine us £60k then they'll have some serious explaining to do.
Whole thing is a cluster**** - what a surprise



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 18:12
Quote:
Which Tyler
But it keeps being said, precedent has been set, Saints were fined £60k for George North... total for the course of his employment (not even per-contract).
If PRL do anything other than fine us £60k then they'll have some serious explaining to do.
Whole thing is a cluster**** - what a surprise

Agreed

 
MESSAGES->author
fatheralice (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 18:37
Interesting that Nick Blofeld was one of the 3 PRL officials who sat in judgement on the original George North case.
David Ellis the second, who was quite outspoken about possible salary cap breaches, a couple of seasons ago...
Steven Vaughan was the third, and I'm not sure he will be quite so friendly this time post Altrad, should he be called on again!!

Saints were fined 2 x £30K apparently - 1 for release for training and 1 for release for the game itself. Clubs were all written to reminding them of the rules, and potential consequences after the verdict..

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 19:55
I seem to remember about the time Faletau was signed that Priestland was contracted on the grounds that 'he would not play for Wales'.

Just what was going on with Bath contracts then?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 20:07
Rhys had resigned since then I think, presumably on less money.

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 20:16
Apparently, Quins have called Jamie Roberts back to the AP schedule, rather than playing for Wales

 
JohnI
JohnI (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 20:36
The rule of releasing players only applies to countries outside of England playing outside of the window because last year England played out of the international window the week before the ECC matches (4 Dec) which meant all this clubs supplying players did not have them available to their clubs until the Monday after whilst all the other countries players had already returned to their clubs to prepare and play for their clubs while England played another international.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
29 November, 2017 22:06
Quote:
DanWiley
Rhys had resigned since then I think, presumably on less money.

I hope you mean Re-signed!

My point was about management cock ups not player release.

 
22Dropout
22Dropout (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 10:26
So we all agree it’s a huge mess. But, having said that, best outcome for us is probably that he’s rested by Gats this weekend, so raring to go for the upcoming Toulon double- header. I would argue that even if he was available to us, he should probably have been rested anyway - he’s pretty much been in the go constantly since he recovered from his last injury, and a break now, particularly with Francois available, is sensible.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 10:39
He was rested two weeks ago.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 11:14
No resting going on here:

Wales: L Halfpenny (Scarlets); H Amos (Dragons), S Williams (Scarlets), H Parkes (Scarlets), S Evans (Scarlets); D Biggar (Ospreys), A Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), K Dacey (Cardiff Blues), S Andrews (Cardiff Blues), C Hill (Dragons), A W Jones (Ospreys, capt), A Shingler (Scarlets), J Navidi (Cardiff Blues), T Faletau (Bath).

N.B. Scott Andrews selected as well.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 11:31
Wales have no reason to do us a favour and would like all of their players to be back in Wales. This sort of things should help them achieve this.

 
noidea
noidea (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 13:13
Quote:
shipwrecked
No resting going on here:
Wales: L Halfpenny (Scarlets); H Amos (Dragons), S Williams (Scarlets), H Parkes (Scarlets), S Evans (Scarlets); D Biggar (Ospreys), A Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), K Dacey (Cardiff Blues), S Andrews (Cardiff Blues), C Hill (Dragons), A W Jones (Ospreys, capt), A Shingler (Scarlets), J Navidi (Cardiff Blues), T Faletau (Bath).

N.B. Scott Andrews selected as well.

Well done Scott, has his loan with Bath finished now?

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 15:11
I've always found it surprising that the WRU, RFU etc are legally allowed to restrict their players from earning a living in another country. Understand why they do it but it seems grossly unfair to the individual. Has a player ever taken up a legal challenge to this (before Brexit of course as we all know the UK becomes a lawless wilderness afterwards)?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
30 November, 2017 15:30
They're not legally restricting them from earning a living in another country. Hence the number of Welsh/English players abroad. They are, however, incentivising them to stay.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 09:54
Quote:
Hasta
They're not legally restricting them from earning a living in another country. Hence the number of Welsh/English players abroad. They are, however, incentivising them to stay

How is 'you must earn your living playing rugby in England to play rugby for England' an incentive ? Seems very restrictive to me. Pretty much same for Wales but with some more weasley exemptions.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 10:25
Francois Louw not playing, one less injury risk to worry about!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 10:44
You can go play and be paid overseas. No one's preventing that - so it's not restrictive. They're saying if you want to get paid by and play for England you have to play in England. Which is an incentive to stay.

Wales' rules change given the weather and are frequently made up and ignored on the spot.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 11:48
Come on its definitely not an incentive.

You cannot play for England unless you choose to be employed within England. That clearly restricts the best players from taking the best jobs wherever they may be if they want to play for their country. I'm struggling to think of any other sport that enforces this and I'm surprised that no player has yet taken up a legal challenge against this.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 12:13
No player is employed by England. Therefore it's not a restriction on employment.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 12:17
Quote:
hasta
No player is employed by England. Therefore it's not a restriction on employment.

Not contracted but they do get £22,000 as a match fee don't they?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 12:22
Sure. Which is an incentive to stay in England and make yourself available to the national team. I'm not saying it's not a strong incentive. But it does not prevent anyone from signing a contract in another contract. They are free to do so. So it's not restrictive. Selection for the national team (and thus appearance fee) is not guaranteed for anyone.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 14:14
Out of interest - just how much of international sport would be fine with employment law?
It's illegal to restrict based on nationality
It's illegal to restrict based on gender
It's illegal to restrict based on age
It's... dodgy to restrict based on physical health



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
01 December, 2017 14:30
All of it because it's not employment.

 
john fox
johnnyf (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
05 December, 2017 16:10
Bath now formally charged.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Faletau released back to Wales to play SA
05 December, 2017 16:27
Oh well. Its not the crime of the century - if TF is happy and Bath went into it happy then just pay the fine and move on. I find the whole thing ridiculous to be honest - its not as if we have to pick players every week?

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