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by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 10:37
They say attack is the hardest part of the game, but we looked absolutely clueless yesterday, after 2 or 3 phases no one looks like they know where they should be, so we end up putting in a poor kick and immediately putting ourselves on the backfoot defending the counter.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 11:01
There are two ways of playing the game this season.

1 Keep the ball, move it left and right, take it into contact, draw in the opposition and constantly look for a mis-match to exploit. (Exeter)

2 Don’t worry about possession, look for territory, pressure the opposition, force the error and exploit it mercilessly. (All Blacks)

Toddy is trying to do the latter, but with limited/occasional success.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 11:11
Quote:
Boldangrey
There are two ways of playing the game this season.
1 Keep the ball, move it left and right, take it into contact, draw in the opposition and constantly look for a mis-match to exploit. (Exeter)

2 Don’t worry about possession, look for territory, pressure the opposition, force the error and exploit it mercilessly. (All Blacks)

Toddy is trying to do the latter, but with limited/occasional success.

Excellent assessment of where we are, whatever plan you use it takes time for every one in the team/club to buy into it. Eg Sarries and Exeter.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 11:31
The slight issue with the ABs plan being that it helps if you have the skills, speed and strength of the ABs and have grown up playing those tactics?

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 11:39
Quote:
by
They say attack is the hardest part of the game, but we looked absolutely clueless yesterday, after 2 or 3 phases no one looks like they know where they should be, so we end up putting in a poor kick and immediately putting ourselves on the backfoot defending the counter.

Badly coached.

Kahn's glacial delivery doesn't help either mind.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 11:41
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Just read this post match quote from TB in The Rugby Paper - "Sale played really well, they played over the top of us, they were direct, they were magnificent but we were cr@p. We were just cr@p". Is TB a regular reader of this board?
Time to cheer up and enjoy the festivities. Glad I'm not a Saints or Sarries supporter, they really do have stuff to worry about...

Glad to hear Todd telling it how it is. Sarries will be fine, and even if they aren't, all those trophies speak for themselves. We're miles away.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 12:11
If you were sent to play at Sale knowing one of the team's leading players whose form has been patchy at best and in a position already short in numbers, has just been given a holiday because he is tired (unlike Dunn who has earned a rest), how would that motivate you? Shouldn't we all be in the sun and not having to oppose those rough gentlemen in darkest wet cold Manchester?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 13:10
I repeat BoB, are you sure that it wasn’t one of the England rugby mandatory rest periods for JJ?

Todd not pulling too many punches

[www.bathchronicle.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/12/2017 13:41 by BathMatt53.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 13:42
As per other thread, JJ has played 998 minutes this season, Dunn has played 680. And JJ didn't get a proper pre-season due to Lions.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 13:43
Cannot we pick when players rest, and what about the needs of the club? Couldn't we rest him when Tapaui or Clarke are available?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 13:53
I imagine this weekend off was arranged a long time ago. It's also not JJ's fault we failed to sign adequate centre coverage. Nor is it his fault that we mentally switched off completely for 40 minutes.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 13:53
JJ might be carrying a small injury for all we know.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 16:22
Quote:
BathMatt53
The slight issue with the ABs plan being that it helps if you have the skills, speed and strength of the ABs and have grown up playing those tactics?

Hard to disagree Matt but the gap between AB's and England has narrowed, we have several players close in quality to AB's. TB is developing a style, one that differs from most in the AP, it will take time.

What seems to happen is as soon as we try to build a brand we either lose coaches (usually to to England) or replace them because they failed to get results.

How long did it take for Richard Cockerill, or Mark McCall or Rob Baxter to build a side?

I also wonder what this board would do if Bath appointed one of the above, somehow I doubt it would wait patiently trusting the coach to produce an end product even though they had a proven track record.

You simply do not produce sparkling, attacking, winning rugby every week without hard work and patience.

 
MESSAGES->author

Re: Sale v Bath
24 December, 2017 17:09
Quote:
hipster1676
How did Our new prop play?
Good question - for those of us not able to see the game - did he show promise?

IGNORE - just spotted the Thread where all is made clear



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/12/2017 17:11 by abendanon-anon-anon.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
25 December, 2017 01:04
Quote:
Clarkey3k

Time to cheer up and enjoy the festivities. Glad I'm not a Saints or Sarries supporter, they really do have stuff to worry about...

Yes - I feel really sorry for Sarries supporters (Sm161) Normal service has been resumed (Sm102)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/12/2017 01:05 by Bath Hammer.

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 12:52
It is one game - I am sorry we were blown away by 40 minutes of excellent rugby played by a very good Sale team playing at home I for one am not going to get all downhearted and call for mass changes in management based on that!!

We had a makeshift centre partnership consisting of a fly half and a winger, it is hardly surprising that the creativity and chemistry was not present. I have seen Banners play in the centres too much he just is not a centre but helps out when injuries and absences dictate.

Lest we forget We have won away already this season at Tigers, Wasps and even come away with a Bonus Point from Sandy Park, my concern is the two home games we have lost and our ability to switch off when we have a game won.

I personally think our coaching team are doing the best they can with the tools they have, our squad is not good enough to challenge the likes of Sarries, Wasps and other European giants, yes we can beat any of them on any given day but we have trouble backing results up, and this comes down to the depth of the squad.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 17:06
Quote:
Ali1969
I for one am not going to get all downhearted and call for mass changes in management based on that!!.

No one is calling for mass changes in management based on that. Some are calling for changes in management based on the past year and a half of stumbling through game to game.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 17:32
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Ali1969
I for one am not going to get all downhearted and call for mass changes in management based on that!!.

No one is calling for mass changes in management based on that. Some are calling for changes in management based on the past year and a half of stumbling through game to game.

Vociferous criticism BO, BUT who do you want to replace current management that are going to be so much better then?

If you want proven success Richard Cockerill perhaps? I assume you want us to abandon attacking rugby to achieve this by the way?

Its all very well chipping away from the sidelines but how about offering a realistic alternative? Even then I doubt you would support them if the failed to supply instant success.

Sorry but it takes time, money and support to gain success in any sport.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 17:50
Quote:
shipwrecked
Sorry but it takes time, money and support to gain success in any sport.

Bath have had plenty of all these, but are no closer to success.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 18:08
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
shipwrecked
Sorry but it takes time, money and support to gain success in any sport.

Bath have had plenty of all these, but are no closer to success.

TB certainly hasn’t had plenty of time, he actually hasn’t had that much money to spend, it was all spent for him. In terms of support, well you only have to read the comments on this board as soon as something goes a bit wrong and you have your answer to that one.

For me the spring will tell us a lot about TBs reign, this should be the first time that he can actually look to bring in people that he has had his eye on and can release those he hasn’t been impressed with.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 18:37
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
shipwrecked
Sorry but it takes time, money and support to gain success in any sport.

Bath have had plenty of all these, but are no closer to success.

When was the last time a Bath manager had a 4 year plus tenure then? Exeter's Rob Baxter was appointed 2009, Sarracens"s Mark McCall was appointed in 2012? That's the sort of time I'm talking about.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 20:41
If we didn't have TB, who do people think we would have or who do people prefer we had?

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 23:04
stop stirring the pot for heavens sake

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 23:07
Quote:
shipwrecked
When was the last time a Bath manager had a 4 year plus tenure then? Exeter's Rob Baxter was appointed 2009, Sarracens"s Mark McCall was appointed in 2012? That's the sort of time I'm talking about.
Exeter: Rob Baxter; (2006) 2009
Saracens: Mark McCall; (2009) 2010
Wasps: Dai Young; 2011
Sale: Steve Diamond; 2012
Newcastle: Dean Richards; 2012
LIrish: Nick Kennedy; 2016
Harlequins: John Kingston: (2001) 2016
Bath: Todd Blackadder; 2016
Northampton: Alan Dickens; (2012) 2017
Worcester: Gary Gold; 2017
Gloucester: Johann Ackermann; 2017
Leicester: Matt O'Connor: 2017

McCall came on as head coach in 2009, with Venter as a hands-on DoR, but has been top-dog since 2010



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/12/2017 13:32 by Which Tyler.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
26 December, 2017 23:35
I think we don't look well coached compared to some of the other premiership teams. Fortunately theres a very good chance someone new is going to come in over the summer.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
27 December, 2017 09:42
What does ‘not very well coached’ look like ? Surely coaching is about marginal gains for the individual and team units and I can’t for the life of me understand how you would clearly spot that on the pitch.

I can see issues with the game plan and sometimes with intensity which you could partly attribute to the management and coaching staff.

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
27 December, 2017 12:33
David Humphreys is the DoR at Gloucester and has been since 2014, Johann Ackermann is Head Coach. I believe most of the other coaches have been there for several seasons.

John Kingston was Head Coach for many years before he became Quin’s DoR.

I’m not sure there a direct relationship between longevity of DoR service and team performance, but it seem to me that chopping and changing every few years is unlikely to help.

I’d like to see an early announcement of either Todd extending his time at Bath or if not a succession plan, possibly involving a Head Coach being appointed.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
27 December, 2017 13:31
Quote:
dcsh
David Humphreys is the DoR at Gloucester and has been since 2014, Johann Ackermann is Head Coach. I believe most of the other coaches have been there for several seasons.
John Kingston was Head Coach for many years before he became Quin’s DoR.
my understanding is that Humphreys used to be a hands on DoR, but was removed from that when Ackermann came in.
Kingston - I thought he had been involved, then moved elsewhere and returned after Connor's departure - I was also wrong, so my apologies, I'll correct the above post.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
27 December, 2017 14:25
Quote:
dcsh
David Humphreys is the DoR at Gloucester and has been since 2014, Johann Ackermann is Head Coach. I believe most of the other coaches have been there for several seasons.
John Kingston was Head Coach for many years before he became Quin’s DoR.

I’m not sure there a direct relationship between longevity of DoR service and team performance, but it seem to me that chopping and changing every few years is unlikely to help.

I’d like to see an early announcement of either Todd extending his time at Bath or if not a succession plan, possibly involving a Head Coach being appointed.


Not very well coached is hard to quantify. Well coached is easier - look at what Ackerman is achieving at Glos.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
27 December, 2017 20:36
Quote:
Beergoggles
What does ‘not very well coached’ look like ? Surely coaching is about marginal gains for the individual and team units and I can’t for the life of me understand how you would clearly spot that on the pitch.
I can see issues with the game plan and sometimes with intensity which you could partly attribute to the management and coaching staff.

Coordination? Composure? Strategy?

I don't have any statistics to back it up but I'd bet we are no where near the top 4 in terms of preventing line breaks, making line breaks, breakdown success, possession or territory.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 00:37
Quote:
Beergoggles
What does ‘not very well coached’ look like ?

Bath Rugby.

Relying on individual bits of magic to win matches. Poor basics. High error count. Poor ball retention. Poor gameplan. Inability to win matches comfortably. Inability to play well for more than 20-30 minutes per game. Low try count. Poor on-field leadership. No composure under pressure. Excellent teams/players on paper not delivering more often than not. Inability to use setpiece ball beyond "box-kicking it away" or being turned over after yet anoter comically inept lineout drive etc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/12/2017 00:38 by ballsout.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 08:02
Er, slight exaggeration you think?

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 08:11
It’s amazing we’re not battling with LI to avoid the drop if we’re that poor! I am not one to dismiss all your points BO, it’s just that you over-inflate them with too much hyperbole.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 08:12
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Beergoggles
What does ‘not very well coached’ look like ?

Bath Rugby.


Relying on individual bits of magic to win matches. Poor basics. High error count. Poor ball retention. Poor gameplan. Inability to win matches comfortably. Inability to play well for more than 20-30 minutes per game. Low try count. Poor on-field leadership. No composure under pressure. Excellent teams/players on paper not delivering more often than not. Inability to use setpiece ball beyond "box-kicking it away" or being turned over after yet anoter comically inept lineout drive etc

Apart from those points we're a reasonable team then



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 09:30
Bath Rugby.

Relying on individual bits of magic to win matches.

Ballsout

Relying on individual bits of criticism to win arguments.

I get what you are saying BO but we must remember that we are still short of TMs replacement. I assume that is ongoing.

In the meantime we have less experienced players trying to make the most of patching the team together, sometimes out of position. Sometimes we can celebrate a huge effort as v Toulon despite injuries.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 10:02
Usual hogwash and hyperbole spouted on here by the usual suspects. What I don’t understand is why it’s ok to lambast the coaching team but not the players as if they’d be world beaters if only they’d had that word or two of coaching magic in their ears.

My criticisms are that we’re hugely inconsistent and it’s not crystal clear what our game plan is. I temper that with the fact that we’re blighted by injuries and surrounded by presumably well coach teams that are also hugely inconsistent.

Maybe, just maybe, this is a very competitive league and Sale were very good in front of their Christmas crowd last Saturday.

We need the Rec crowd 100% behind the team on Friday night. Presumably we all agree on that ?

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 10:22
“Blighted by injuries”?? I doubt we are any worse off than most other teams & better off than a few.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 10:56
My frustration is that we are way less than the sum of our parts, which gives the impression of problems with coaching.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 10:58
All sides have 'star' or first choice player injuries, so I don't think this is a legitimate excuse for our one week inspired and next dross performance.

I also am firmly in the camp of it is the players on the pitch who are responsible for their actions or lack of them. That includes basic skills, some under pressure some not, leadership which again leaves much to be desired and attitude.

I truly believe the Bath team are extremely lucky to have the continued support they enjoy, from both spectators and the club owner, without showing any noticeable, consistent improvement. I along with the majority of the crowd on Friday will be in full voice for the men in BB&W now lets hope the players can produce the goods in what is a vital game, if we have any true aspirations to bettering our league position.

Wasps are riddled with injuries to top players, so we probably have the best chance to put one over them, although their 'reserves' produced a stunning performance to put away a very good confident playing Glaws last weekend.

C'mon you Bath, please lets do the business.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 11:09
Quote:
OutsideBath
My frustration is that we are way less than the sum of our parts, which gives the impression of problems with coaching.

It’s interesting how people keep saying how we have the most amazing players compared with other teams but I don’t think that we do really? Most other teams have a hand full of stars (Sale for example last week with faf, solamena, O’Connor etc). How many of our players would get into any 1st team in the league? Watson, TF and JJ maybe, Louw? Roko? We have lots of players who in my view are as good as other squads (Dunn, Brew, Clark, stooke etc) but I don’t look at the team that we were able to play against Sale and think that we were hugely better on paper?

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 11:13
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Wasps are riddled with injuries to top players, so we probably have the best chance to put one over them

I think you mean Bath are riddled with injuries to top players.

Catt, Batty, Attwood, Faletau, Louw, Underhill, Roko, Tapuai, Clark, Banahan all missing for starters

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 11:32
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Wasps are riddled with injuries to top players, so we probably have the best chance to put one over them

I think you mean Bath are riddled with injuries to top players.

Catt, Batty, Attwood, Faletau, Louw, Underhill, Roko, Tapuai, Clark, Banahan all missing for starters

Don't forget Homer and Ellis

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 11:32
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Wasps are riddled with injuries to top players, so we probably have the best chance to put one over them

I think you mean Bath are riddled with injuries to top players.

Catt, Batty, Attwood, Faletau, Louw, Underhill, Roko, Tapuai, Clark, Banahan all missing for starters

BOTH teams are. All teams know that this will happen which is why there are squads of 40+ players. If they aren’t good enough to play they shouldn’t be in the squad. No excuses, it’s 23 v 23 professional players tomorrow. Looking forward to it, although if we continue to kick it away after 3 phases as has been the case we will be stuffed. Let’s have a go at the exeter / Leinster method, even if we are going nowhere for a few phases at least they don’t have the ball...of course this relies on us not getting isolated and then turned over.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Sale v Bath
28 December, 2017 13:01
Who are Wasps missing of consequence apart from Gopperth and Hughes?

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