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terracehugger
terracehugger (IP Logged)

Going backwards
29 December, 2017 22:22
Far too slow at breakdown.
Get possession.....kick it away. Time and time again!!
Wasps 9&10 in a totally different league to ours.
Wasps back line, apart from our Watson, were a different class. Quick, direct, aggressive, exciting, and kept possession!!
We are simply not improving in line with the other top Premiership teams.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 22:30
The worst thing is that Wasps are playing how we should play, they seem to constantly get the ball to their danger men in the backs. It was just the same ball out the back to Cips behind a pod of forwards with one of their wingers arcing round, over and over again.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 22:36
Outplayed by the opposition yet again.

Only one side looked well coached and if most certainly wasn't Bath.

I have no idea what the squad train for at Farleigh.

Basics: non existent
Composure under pressure: nope
Ball retention: (Sm22)
Ball handling: schooled by Wasps, and most other teams
Strategy: non existent

We stumble from game to game, going absolutely nowhere. Offering absolutely nothing. And still the rose tinted crew refuse to see it.

 
The Oilman
The Oilman (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 23:01
If memory serves me correctly our tries came when they were down to 14 men.
As others have said, we are going backwards.
2 points from the game is probably more than we deserved.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 23:12
So what do you guys suggest? New coach, new players, new team. All you do is moan moan moan . how about getting some new supporters?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 23:13
Ashamed as I am to say, I totally agree with the above. I was embarrassed by some of the decision making and execution today.

 
bathstigg
bathstigg (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 23:22
The strategy is the biggest issue and kicking possession away. Iíve been watching Bath at the rec for 10 years now and the best seasons were 13/14 and 14/15 when we played an attacking quick ball game which almost won the premiership. The absence of an attacking Pattern of play and relying on defence will not win tournaments.
Although Ballsout is negative and we have lost Faletau,Louw,Roco,Atwood,Bannahan and Underhill to injury what is the plan at Farleigh? Apart from the challenge cup 2007 Bath havenít won silverware in 20 years!

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
29 December, 2017 23:37
Dear Todd,

Would you please be so kind as to share with us loyal supporters what on earth our game plan is ? If there has ever been a successful team built on aimlessly kicking the ball away without bothering to chase it could you highlight that too please ? Finally, could you share with us whether there was any circumstance under which Mr Freddie Burns would get to play some rugby tonight ... I presume it was the scintillating error free rugby played by Rhys that persuaded you to keep Freddie on the bench ?

Yours completely confused,

BG

 
ade1865
Ade1865 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 00:25
@#$%& @#$%& fuckity @#$%&!

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 00:29
Quote:
Ade1865
@#$%& @#$%& fuckity @#$%&!

... interesting censorship

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 00:36
Quote:
BathBurger
Quote:
Ade1865
@#$%& @#$%& fuckity @#$%&!

... interesting censorship

It's a quote from "4 weddings and a funeral", isn't it?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
spongey (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 01:29
I don't think we're going backwards, I just think there's a clear blue print to beat us now and we're getting exposed. There was always going to be flaws in a low possession and lack of territory game plan.

It seems weird to say after conceding five tries, but we didn't actually defend awfully. We just did a lot of defending against a team that was eventually going to find space. The problem is we only ever send one man in max to compete at the breakdown which is easy to combat particularly without Louw on the pitch. If you don't make a mistake or kick it away, we can't touch the ball. Wasps did not do anything that imaginative or complicated. It was often two passes out back and forth for phase after phase until the backs created an inevitable mismatch or overlap and took advantage. The actual line speed and covering defence was pretty good, it's just not many defences can keep a team like Wasps out for 60 minutes of defending.

I don't hate this passive defensive system, we're clearly good at it and we still have one of the best defences around. The problem comes when you give away the ball too easily. It should mean we actually have more ambition with the ball and attack from deeper because if we lose it we still have a good chance of keeping them out. Just kicking it away from predictable box kicks, sometimes from the halfway line, for a team to run it back at you is just awful. We have some of the most talented ball players in the league in our team, let them play and express themselves. When we actually have the ball we look good, we just seem to think we're better without it.

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 02:08
Passive aggressive.
Bad way to have a marriage.
Poor thing to watch as a fee payer.

HOP

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 07:56
Is it poor tactics, a thin squad or our 6 England squad players plus other internationals not taking responsibility. Arguably Wasps had as many injuries as us but it didnít look like it, though if you analyse the team it was just one centre, one winger & two back rows we were missing which should have been more of a hindrance than absolutely critical. The one area of the team we havenít adequately covered is centre & it is showing. Itís difficult to understand why we find it so difficult to use the salary cap effectively. Nevertheless, it seems to be this passivity that is destroying us. It may work in NZ with their style of play & world class personnel but surely needs a re-think at the very least. Of course it is a fact that the world class team with some of the greatest ever players failed to win a title under TB which may or may not tell us something.

 
22Dropout
22Dropout (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 09:13
Rhys is a big part of the problem. Must be a nightmare to play outside and a dream to defend against! Either kicks it away or shuffles it on. Never makes a break, never throws a miss pass, never puts anyone into space, never chips it, never a cross kick etc EC. So predictable and lack of vision. Might work with a very restricted game plan thatís all about defending, but when thats not working and we need to score heís lost (and so are we). Why oh why did we acquire Freddie, if heís going to sit on the bench, when he can do all those things that Rhys cannot. Coaches take a bow - and do we even have a backs coach? Very, very disappointing, and things must change, start8ng at Wuss.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 09:24
We lost to a team that are above us in the Prem.

Before the match most people expected this and would have settled for a losing BP. We also got a try BP.

At times we were dire but lost by 4 tries to 5. At times we were excellent (the pack). Zac Mercer is outstanding.

We are currently fifth and unlikely to be overtaken this w/e.

No need for the Mess Webley yet!

Posted in error on the other thread.


Well said Spongey.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 09:26
Iím not a big fan of Rhys as I also think that Freddie is a more exciting player, however I donít think that too much of yesterday was down to him, a couple of kicking howlers aside. The 9s were slow, inaccurate and their box kicking suicidal, Henry Thomas just passed to them for their try straight after the break, Charteris offered very little around the field (was turned over a few times) and didnít even manage to catch in the lineout when a remarkable (and largely undeserved) win was a possibility, nobody committed to rucks, passes went to ground or up in the air more than to hand etc etc. It was just a giant clusterpuck and, for me, Rhys wasnít the cause of it last night.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 09:28
I think you're ignoring the total lack of game plan and how easily a makeshift Wasps team cut us to shreds.

That's 3 home defeats now which just isn't good enough



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 09:49
Most have pointed out what I and dozens sitting around me think and are becoming much more vocal. I have never heard a Bath crowd howl in unison 'don't kick it!'

Kicking has its place when defending or in stretching an attack. Ours is slow and ponderous even my dear old mum could predict where it is going and how to align a defence and even set up an attack from it.

We are playing by numbers and there is b all flair or instinctive play.

But what the players on the pitch could do is simply up the physicality and when they tackle hit harder and drive the player back and then the follow up can drive over the ball and clear out any dawdling opposition stopping quick release. Our lack of physical play even shows with the difficulty we have in simply grounding the ball over the tryline!

Also, if the team don't buck up they will lose the crowd who again turned out to the full for an absolute load of dross which is not improving.

I still believe we need to get away from training at the Farleigh Spa and get back to roughing it a bit.

We have top class players like Watson and JJ who we never seem able to work into space and a lineout drive which to be frank we should never try as it is so bad.

Catching and passing under pressure is another glaring weakness of the whole team and that is a player responsibility being a basic skill.

 
Peter Ord
OAP (Over a pint) (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 10:26
Young, Baxter and McCall never complain about injuries but all three seem to have a balanced squad of players. Perhaps you are paying some players more than they are worth or deserve which ultimately reduces your squad depth. You also don't seem to recognise or retain some of the quality players that have been allowed to slip away.

I have no idea whether Farleigh is a good or a bad venue but suspect it has little to do with your performances. As for coaching and coaches I would like to see Bath or Saints, preferably both, appoint some young English coaches rather than chase what is left of the mythical Southern Hemisphere coaches. Funnily enough the top three sides have Britsh coaches which must say something.

The other big difference at present is that the three top sides appear to play for each other and a mistake is a team mistake and doesn't result in a disparaging look. I'm sure TB is a good coach but maybe just can't get a southern point of view over to a northern team. The other thing from an outsiders point of view is that you don't look fit and whatever game plan you adopt today you have to be fit because it's a much faster and physically harder game than when I played, though to be fair you could slow your opposite number down by slotting him early on.

So adopt a simple game plan which involves retaining the ball for longer periods, get fitter so that you can all at least try to stick to the game plan. Finally one Monday take the team on a vey long run until they are completely knackered and then lock them in a room for two hour to debate being a team and they will be amazed what on or two might have to say and one or two might just slot each other..

I look forward to three nights in Bath this March but in the meantime Happy
New Year to you all.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 10:55
Donít look fit? Not sure where that has come from, thatís the least of our problems. We were 20 down in the 1st 20mins not because we were knackered.

Nobody (who either follows bath or doesnít) can comment on Toddís relationship and communication with the players or what has already gone on in the dressing room / behind closed doors.

Henry Thomas passing to their player at the start of the second half, Kahn kicking straight out on the full and Cook kicking to their midfield, RP missing touch and LC not catching have nothing to do with any of the above, they are mistakes under pressure.

 
MESSAGES->author
JimDaff (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:03
Thanks for that rather patronising post Cheshire cheese but I have to question your knowledge of rugby if you think a team who are averaging 145 tackles per game are lacking fitness! As a former player you would probably know that defense is the most tiring aspect of our beloved sport and rightly point out our shocking ball retention stats are whatís crippling us and leading to the exhausting defensive sets.

Maybe we should do as you say and get an British coach in to improve our performance in the premiership, maybe then we could hope to push on and match Exeterís results in the euro cup? Oh, hold on a sec...

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:06
Exe are streets ahead of us at the mo to be fair, itís not like we would have turned over Leinster. But I do think that the reasons given for our lack of performance are flawed.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:10
Another patronising Chief, oh good. Only one side looked unfit when we were running rings around them at Sandy Park in the last twenty minutes and it wasn't Bath.

Quote:
Bathovalballer
We have top class players like Watson and JJ who we never seem able to work into space and a lineout drive which to be frank we should never try as it is so bad.

This is very true. Our lineout drive is comically inept.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/12/2017 11:11 by ballsout.

 
MESSAGES->author
JimDaff (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:11
Quote:
BathMatt53
Exe are streets ahead of us at the mo to be fair, itís not like we would have turned over Leinster. But I do think that the reasons given for our lack of performance are flawed.

Always the voice of reason BathMatt, our differing European positions were all I had, donít let on that Treviso are in our pool! (Sm151)

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:20
(Sorry JD, I missed your point, letís keep it between us!)

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:46
Utterly patronising post by a smug Exeter supporter. Just because they are playing far better than us doesnít mean anyone who follows them has all the answers & one thing this Bath team are not is unfit.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 11:50
Quote:
JimDaff
Quote:
BathMatt53
Exe are streets ahead of us at the mo to be fair, itís not like we would have turned over Leinster. But I do think that the reasons given for our lack of performance are flawed.

Always the voice of reason BathMatt, our differing European positions were all I had, donít let on that Treviso are in our pool! (Sm151)

Treviiso who should have beaten both Scarlettís & Toulon & who we were very lucky to beat 20-0. However I donít give us a prayer against Scarlettís if we play like we did yesterday.

 
Peter Ord
OAP (Over a pint) (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 12:42
No intention to be patronising and I apologise if it appears so. As for a s mug Chiefs supporter I can assure you I am nothing of the sort. Before moving to Devon fourteen years ago I watched Sale when I could as I was busy with my own club. Now having returned to the north I watch Sale, Wasps and occasionally Worcester because I love rugby.

If I was a smug Chiefs supporter I could enjoy answering some of the comments made but that was never the intention.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 12:48
O come on, Exeter are a far better team and club than Bath currently.

Couldn't go last night (as 14 consecutive years season ticket holder) but watching bits on the telly, why or why do we not hold on to the ball as a main objective, did anyone engage their brains in the first half, yet again was there a gameplan based on how Wasps ae playing currently, etc. etc. etc.

To cap it all this morning, I had an automated e-mail survey from the MarketingDepartment asking how I enjoyed the experience? Ye gods. Perhaps the tail is wagging the dog. I thought Bath Rugby was a professional sports club not some branded consumer firm!



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 13:12
The main positive for me from last nights game was the huge effort and heart the players showed despite the apparent tonking we were about to get. We have had a large number of injuries (as have many of our competitors) but the team we put out last night seemed reasonably balanced and competitive on paper. For me we have two crippling issues we need to address :

1. Game plan. The low possession and low territory game plan doesn't work across a season and we must find a way of playing a greater proportion of the game in the oppositions half and with the ball. If we can't go through them, around them, or (sensibly) kick over them for territory then I don't see how we can win matches. Chris Cooke highlighted this when box kicking for 20 metres of territory, but still within our own half, when 5 points down and with 7 minutes on the clock. This provoked some rather ripe language from the terraces.

2. Individual errors. It seems that each player has at least one significant error in them every game as highlighted by RP missing touch with our first attacking penalty, JJ passing directly into touch, the botched first attacking line out, the botched final attacking lineout, losing the ball in contact, knock on after knock on etc etc. I don't know if its down to a lack of concentration, a lack of skills, or incremental tiredness through having to make circa 150 tackles per match but it needs to be eradicated or at least minimised. This has to be down to the players, and particularly those seasoned internationals who should be able to do better.

Here's hoping for a huge reaction versus Worcester.

 
Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 13:23
Quote:
Big Chief Cheshire Cheese
Young, Baxter and McCall never complain about injuries but all three seem to have a balanced squad of players. Perhaps you are paying some players more than they are worth or deserve which ultimately reduces your squad depth. You also don't seem to recognise or retain some of the quality players that have been allowed to slip away.
I have no idea whether Farleigh is a good or a bad venue but suspect it has little to do with your performances. As for coaching and coaches I would like to see Bath or Saints, preferably both, appoint some young English coaches rather than chase what is left of the mythical Southern Hemisphere coaches. Funnily enough the top three sides have Britsh coaches which must say something.

The other big difference at present is that the three top sides appear to play for each other and a mistake is a team mistake and doesn't result in a disparaging look. I'm sure TB is a good coach but maybe just can't get a southern point of view over to a northern team. The other thing from an outsiders point of view is that you don't look fit and whatever game plan you adopt today you have to be fit because it's a much faster and physically harder game than when I played, though to be fair you could slow your opposite number down by slotting him early on.

So adopt a simple game plan which involves retaining the ball for longer periods, get fitter so that you can all at least try to stick to the game plan. Finally one Monday take the team on a vey long run until they are completely knackered and then lock them in a room for two hour to debate being a team and they will be amazed what on or two might have to say and one or two might just slot each other..

I look forward to three nights in Bath this March but in the meantime Happy
New Year to you all.

Perhaps you should come and coach our team, you seem to have all the answers ? And I have never heard Todd complain about injuries.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 13:30
Todd never complains about injuries. Maybe if Exeter had an injury list the length of Bath, Quins, Wasps etc Baxter might pipe up, but they don't.

 
Jonny Fantastic
Jonny Fantastic (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 15:34
I think our problems simply stem from the following issues:

1) Coaching - Losing Tabs was mega unfortunate and the fact he hasn't been replaced is criminal. Just what does Darren Edwards do with the backs? It's not like when he was at Newport they were setting the world alight with their backs. A mediocre coach at best. Todd has said countless times that we are not coached to kick the ball away and spend more than half the game without the ball in our hands, which boils down to...

2) Game Plan - We cannot simply win games with under 40% possession and keep kicking the ball away after 2 phases or so. Last night was as bad as it was under Gary Gold, with second phase kick ball, and that was bad enough!!! The fact that we do this probably shows the fact the players are possibly not listening to the coaches and Todd needs to show some guts and drop them, no questions asked. What has Freddie got to do to start or at least come off the bench? Has he upset the apple cart? The game was crying out for him to come off the bench last night and mix it up a bit as he has the ability to unlock defences. When it comes to kicking from hand, it needs to be effective and this hasn't been the case for some time.

3) Recruitment - The lack of decent recruitment has definitely come home to roost, and the fact that our centre combination was different for the umpteenth time this season has exposed the lack of squad depth in this area once and for all. I know during the off-season Todd wanted 6 to 7 new players, but barely got anyone decent (apart from Freddie and Sam) so something is not right in the upper echelons of high management (Bruce/Tarquin) and this will need urgent attention! We need to sign a couple of decent midfielders, and that does not mean Ben Te'o. Do we want another player that will spend half the time on the treatment table? I hope not. We also need to sign some decent squad players, not internationals that will spend half the season out on international duty.

4) Defence - Our defence has been extremely porous this season, a far shadow of seasons past. We cannot cope with teams that play a fast offloading game, as shown by Wasps last night. Why are we so reliant on Flo to slow the ball down? In terms of defence, we need to be much more aggressive at ruck time and at least try to compete for the ball, as a team and not rely on certain individuals for turnovers. I do think one element of the defensive issues has been the constant changes in our midfield this season as the way I see it, teams are targeting the centre channels and breaking the gain line with significant ease.

5) Errors - Last night's display had so many individual errors, it almost seems that as a team, the players are not on the same wavelength together. It was attritional viewing!

Oh, and lastly, am I the only that has had enough of certain users on here harping on and on about Exeter and how good they are? It sounds like broken record syndrome, I've heard it all before. Yes I know they are much better than us, but give it a rest folks.

That's my two pence worth.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 15:40
I don't think we've gone backwards, since Todd bedded in I think we're more or less in the same place. Part of the problem is that prior to him taking over we were actually punching above our weight (briefly) with booth. So people asking for answers, maybe he's it? I've no idea whether he was responsible our play, just good at generating positive morale or just riding that post ford wave, but we had something for that brief period and it went.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 15:43
For what it's worth, Exeter just seem a little (ok a lot) more consistent than us.

 
MESSAGES->author
Griff (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 16:35
Could be worse. We could be Northampton who look a club in disarray. 29-0 down to Quins who have BP after 31 mins.



"You're going to need a bigger boat"

 
Montyuk
Montyuk (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 19:23
Yeah at least we're not Saints. Just rewatching the game on TV after going to it last night. Surprisingly we are still rubbish. I don't know why I'm putting myself through it.

 
terracehugger
terracehugger (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 19:41
Our total game plan revolves round 9&10 but Priestland, Fotualiíi and Cook are simply not of sufficient quality. Burns needs to start now and as a last resort, bring back young Homer, who cannot possibly be as totally ineffectual as our present incumbents.
Even if we manage to tempt 2 quality centres to join us, they will suffer through a lack of effective service.
It is so sad and incredibly frustrating. We are much better than what we are being subjected to.

 
john fox
johnnyf (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 19:43
Nothing has been the same since Tabai Matson went.
How can a top echelon team lose a head coach and not replace him?
If he is not replaced what the hell was his role in the first place?

We've been here before - the roles of Director of Rugby and Head Coach are totally different and require 2 completely different skill sets.

Rugby is a team sport relying on the performance of the whole being greater than the input of the individuals.
There seems little motivation to play as a team at present. Whose responsibility is that?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 20:52
There are a lot of issues. However our ball retention is a joke.

People were shouting not to kick and on here people criticise aimless kicking, but it isnít aimless. They know that if we try to move the ball up the pitch thereís no way we can make 20 metres without losing it.

Wasps chuck it around for ages and eventually score we canít retain it regardless of how tight we keep it.

Iím not dissing all the words that many of you have written but if you canít pass and catch there is little need of a detailed game plan

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 20:55
Quote:
woodpecker
There are a lot of issues. However our ball retention is a joke.
People were shouting not to kick and on here people criticise aimless kicking, but it isnít aimless. They know that if we try to move the ball up the pitch thereís no way we can make 20 metres without losing it.

Wasps chuck it around for ages and eventually score we canít retain it regardless of how tight we keep it.

Iím not dissing all the words that many of you have written but if you canít pass and catch there is little need of a detailed game plan

This is easily the biggest issue, and needs sorting.

 
Kidney Stone
Kidney Stone (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 22:52
I'm surprised none of the usual suspects have played the 'we are a club in transition' card yet. Still time I guess.

A hugely disappointing night.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
30 December, 2017 23:25
Quote:
Griff
Could be worse. We could be Northampton who look a club in disarray. 29-0 down to Quins who have BP after 31 mins.

Thereís a considerable difference.saints have enjoyed a sustained run at the top table being nailed on top 4 for a number of seasons & I believe winning the AO & reaching the Heineken final. We have never done so since the game went professional.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
31 December, 2017 09:35
With all the changes in the team I can understand a lack of confidence in attack. What I can't get my head around is why we concede so much ground over so many phases often without trying to be first in over the ball.

I get that fanning out around the contact area reduces space for the attacking team but you can't keep retreating. Making it difficult for the opposition at the ruck also slows the ball down.

I haven't seen Fridays game yet but that is my main gripe with our tactics over the games I have seen.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
31 December, 2017 09:36
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
Griff
Could be worse. We could be Northampton who look a club in disarray. 29-0 down to Quins who have BP after 31 mins.

Thereís a considerable difference.saints have enjoyed a sustained run at the top table being nailed on top 4 for a number of seasons & I believe winning the AO & reaching the Heineken final. We have never done so since the game went professional.

Seem to remember we won the Heinekin Cup once?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
31 December, 2017 10:04
Quote:
B4thB4ck
I haven't seen Fridays game yet but that is my main gripe with our tactics over the games I have seen.

If you've recorded the match I suggest deleting it immediately as it's an absolute horror show that will only depress you.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
31 December, 2017 10:47
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
Griff
Could be worse. We could be Northampton who look a club in disarray. 29-0 down to Quins who have BP after 31 mins.

Thereís a considerable difference.saints have enjoyed a sustained run at the top table being nailed on top 4 for a number of seasons & I believe winning the AO & reaching the Heineken final. We have never done so since the game went professional.

Seem to remember we won the Heinekin Cup once?

Fair point. I should have said this millennium.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
31 December, 2017 10:54
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
B4thB4ck
I haven't seen Fridays game yet but that is my main gripe with our tactics over the games I have seen.

If you've recorded the match I suggest deleting it immediately as it's an absolute horror show that will only depress you.

Thanks for the warning OB, perhaps I should watch the highlights version only and through my fingers from behind the sofa. Can't be any worse than reading COML sometimes but to be fair I haven't committed to a season ticket like many on here so don't feel the pain the same way perhaps.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 14:28
Chartris fumbling that final lineout pretty much summed up the match really. Barely conceivable that had he caught it, we could still have won.

My main gripe is that we don't compete at the breakdown. That just gives the opposition the freedom to play multiple phases. This is why Louw is our most important player and such a big loss. Whilst excellent, Underhill isn't as good at the turnover, but without either of them, it seems we don't even attempt the odd turnover.

This lack of possession makes the fumbles and poor kicks seem worse. It also heaps pressure on the players who probably try too hard when they do get their hands on the ball. On top of that it stops us playing to our strengths both in the loose and the set piece. The lineouts and scrums have been generally pretty good this term, so it's a shame we don't get many of them.

So I'd say if you want more possession, you don't necessarily need to kick less, kick better for sure and properly chase those box kicks, but playing in you own half isn't wise, instead compete at the breakdown, stop your opposition playing, and they'll kick the ball to you.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 14:48
On second viewing we actually do try and attack the breakdown, slowing it up on occasion, but Wasps were just brutal when clearing us out.

Too often we were committing two men to the tackle, and then another to try and slow it down, if he missed the ball Robson was able to punish us around the fringes.

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 14:49
We are not a good team, end.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 15:23
Quote:
by
On second viewing we actually do try and attack the breakdown, slowing it up on occasion, but Wasps were just brutal when clearing us out.
Too often we were committing two men to the tackle, and then another to try and slow it down, if he missed the ball Robson was able to punish us around the fringes.

Two men in the tackle is almost a given these days.They have to roll away so can't really compete at the breakdown unless they stay on their feet and do the old 'hands-off-hands-on' trick. Next man in would normally be the 7. If he's going to get a turnover he has to be quicker over the ball than the oppo. If he's the only man in, then he'll get cleared out PDQ anyway, so he needs support. So two to the tackle and one more just isn't enough. Going back more than a few years, Bath used to play the pack in two pods of 4 and alternate rucks. Of course if you play the new 2-4-2 you can't do that.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 16:06
Quote:
BathPatriot
We are not a good team, end.

This is the most frustrating thing though as we do have enough good players.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 16:36
Geeez you guys are so pessimistic!!

Wasps were superb - let's get that straight. In Cipriani and Robson I think they have maybe the finest 9/10 combo in the AP outside of maybe Wigglesworth/Spencer and Farrell. Even the "mighty Exeter" don't have a 9/10 that are of the quality Cips and Robson showed on Friday night. They controlled everything, helped Wasps maintain possession and played the phases until the space was made to execute and punish us. For those who have rewatched the game I don't think any of the Wasps tries came from first phase or anything close really from memory and so let's not take out the fact that they played very well.

Our attacking game though is definitely something that seems to be lacking a bit. What I am a little concerned about is that we seem unsure as to whether we are a powerful forward team or whether we are a flashy backs team. We have the options for both but seem masters of neither. In my personal opinion we have some excellent forwards but our strengths are not battering teams around. We have a few individual carriers in the forwards who can make good ground from standing starts but the majority of them are better running at weak shoulders or in more open space - e.g. Flouw, Faletau and Zach Mercer who thrive at this.

We do though seem to play better when we resort to basics. I would like to see a little more of us playing off of 10 as opposed to 9 as I feel with our forwards we are more likely to make ground that little bit wider as opposed to in and around the fringes. I would also like to see us be a little more decisive in the 9 position particularly. If we are going to box kick communicate it early and do it quicker rather than setting our entire forward pack next to the ruck and kicking to a set defence.
I am not one to criticise the coaches but I am wondering as well what Burns has to do to get a chance starting with the first choice backline outside of him. So far he has played in mixed up backlines or with the 2nd choice players in games of little importance. Give him the reins against Worcester with as close to our first choice team as we can and see whether he proves any more effective at putting people through spaces. Rhys has not played poorly but I believe Burns will offer that little more threat from 10 as he has the bit of maverick unexpected play that keeps defences guessing and therefore true a bit more.

Apart from that we just need to work out how to either disrupt the opposition a bit more or how to cheat better. We seem to me to be far too honest and proper. I thought Wasps were getting quick ball on Friday night regardless of whether we competed or not mostly because 9/10 they were hitting rucks from the side. If it isn't picked up by the ref's we need to figure that out and start doing it a bit quicker as being nice guys and honest players doesn't get you results at the top level. Look at teams like Sarries and Leinster. Superb at bending the rules a little or playing the ref. How often are Sarries all offside but it isn't ever caught because they've all gone together!

That's my 2 cents on things that would be a quick and easy fix. The good news is they are all things we can work on easily enough as opposed to us just being completely outclassed and not competing. A few more of these close games may then fall our way!



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 18:05
I wonder why EJ & his fellow selectors donít rate Cipriani & Robson so highly? There have been issues with Cips but he hasnít been that naughty for a while. Could it be that in EJís view Youngs & Care and Ford & Farrell + ANO are better? Itís only one view but his selections have mostly worked out.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 19:28
I don't imagine it's rugby reasons.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 21:12
I think it absolutely is for rugby reasons, that seems to be the only thing Eddie cares about.

Cipriani gets brought up in conversation once every four or five games when he has a good match. Consistency wise, Ford and Farrell are way ahead of him, and at their worst, aren't the liability Cipriani can be on his off days.

Quote:
jayeatman
So I'd say if you want more possession, you don't necessarily need to kick less, kick better for sure and properly chase those box kicks, but playing in you own half isn't wise, instead compete at the breakdown, stop your opposition playing, and they'll kick the ball to you.

People often bring up our lack of posession being down to us kicking it away, I'm sure the stats will say this absolutely isn't the case and we probably kick just as much as other teams. Our problem is when we do have the ball, we lose it, within 3 or 4 phases. Not presenting properly, dropped passes, passes into touch, no look offloading to the other team, chips straight into the opposition hands. We lose the ball so often in contact by not looking after it, listen out for the collective groan every time the other team run out of a contact area with the ball. It's been happening so often in recent months. Our terrible ball retention is the reason for our 30% possession stat every single week, and what's losing us games, not our kicking game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2018 21:14 by ballsout.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
02 January, 2018 22:37
Kicking as much as other teams when you only have 1/3 of possession is surely proportionally high? Besides which as others have said, there is nothing wrong with a good kick, either into space, touch or a box kick arriving at the same time as a Bath player. On Friday (and last March against Wasps) we kicked to their fast back 3 or into midfield when we nowhere near (Cook at the end) straight out when we shouldnít (Kahn) or dead on a pen (RP). Hence Todd referring to us Ďhanding them a loaded guní.

 
Awp24975
Awp24975 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 07:36
There is nothing wrong with the kicking game but is just so poorly implemented by the players that it is frustrating to watch.
The execution of our kicking game is terrible and the kick chase is on the whole lethargic. I have been lucky enough to watch training at Farleigh on a number of occasions and to see how the players are doing this part of a game compared to match day is infuriating, so to Todd must be unbearable.
Ballsout is correct in that our Ball retention is poor, how many times are we turned over in the tackle, spilled ball in contact, knock it on, poor passes, and just simple mistakes being made.
Friday night we caught the ball in our 22 , worked hard to drive the ball about a metre or two out of our 22, then kicked it out on the full. Todd and the coaching team canít be blamed for that. These are simple things that the players just arenít doing and are basic skills.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2018 08:48 by Awp24975.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 08:55
I think youíve spotted the problem.

Training for the kick-chase in the Gucci loafers they wear at Farleigh towers has a completely different feel from the boots they wear for the match.

 
Awp24975
Awp24975 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 09:16
Yes it is a very impressive set up, but the occasions I have been there it was anything but an easy stroll throwing rugby balls about followed by a nice spa session. They were worked extremely hard, and what they were doing there is completely different to what they are producing on match days. I know training and matches are different, but some of the occasions Iíve witnessed were 15 on 15 scenarios against non team mates, and weíre anything but just running through the motions.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 09:17
If you are a 9 or 10 and every time you pass the team the ball, they lose it within 3 phases, you would be tempted to kick it more often, I would think..

When the bloke next to me kept saying dont kick it I said, have you seen what happens when they don't?

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 09:23
Quote:
ballsout
I think it absolutely is for rugby reasons, that seems to be the only thing Eddie cares about.
Cipriani gets brought up in conversation once every four or five games when he has a good match. Consistency wise, Ford and Farrell are way ahead of him, and at their worst, aren't the liability Cipriani can be on his off days.

I heard this EJ story from a very relaible source whilst watching England train before the Samoa game last autumn. At his first England training session he brought the players together and told them to go and work on their own because he wanted an hour or so with the coaches to go over a few things. As the players went off to train EJ watched them from a discreet vantage point without their knowledge. Those who applied themselves and got down to some serious work were retained thereafter, those who didn't were not. Hartley emerged well from this initial activity and is why you will hear EJ talk about his value as a leader and organiser in the group. I still think Jamie George is the best English #2 at the moment but it's not my shout...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 09:46
Quote:
Clarkey3k
I heard this EJ story from a very relaible source whilst watching England train before the Samoa game last autumn. At his first England training session he brought the players together and told them to go and work on their own because he wanted an hour or so with the coaches to go over a few things. As the players went off to train EJ watched them from a discreet vantage point without their knowledge. Those who applied themselves and got down to some serious work were retained thereafter, those who didn't were not. Hartley emerged well from this initial activity and is why you will hear EJ talk about his value as a leader and organiser in the group. I still think Jamie George is the best English #2 at the moment but it's not my shout...

I like this story. Seems quite an EJ thing to do. You can imagine those like Ford and Farrell loving this to practice kicking, passing etc - whilst maybe a Cipriani type would have previously enjoyed a gas around with mates?

Difference is on current form Cipriani looks like he is enjoying himself whilst Ford looks like he is hating life at Leicester and even Farrell and Sarries haven't had the easiest time of it lately!

It's all speculation on my part of course but I do wonder whether the professionalism needed to operate at the highest levels of the game does dampen your love of it at times?



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 09:54
Quote:
Big Dog

Difference is on current form Cipriani looks like he is enjoying himself whilst Ford looks like he is hating life at Leicester and even Farrell and Sarries haven't had the easiest time of it lately!


Really?! Wasn't he captain last weekend and is there with all his best mates (Ben Youngs etc.). He may be struggling behind a weak pack (he always has done) but I haven't seen anything to indicate that he is hating life at Leicester?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 10:36
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Big Dog

Difference is on current form Cipriani looks like he is enjoying himself whilst Ford looks like he is hating life at Leicester and even Farrell and Sarries haven't had the easiest time of it lately!


Really?! Wasn't he captain last weekend and is there with all his best mates (Ben Youngs etc.). He may be struggling behind a weak pack (he always has done) but I haven't seen anything to indicate that he is hating life at Leicester?

I agree, he's always had a face like a smacked ar$e, he's got his special friend with him and as far as I'm aware nobody at Tigs has been nasty to his dad

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 10:55
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Big Dog

Difference is on current form Cipriani looks like he is enjoying himself whilst Ford looks like he is hating life at Leicester and even Farrell and Sarries haven't had the easiest time of it lately!


Really?! Wasn't he captain last weekend and is there with all his best mates (Ben Youngs etc.). He may be struggling behind a weak pack (he always has done) but I haven't seen anything to indicate that he is hating life at Leicester?

I agree, he's always had a face like a smacked ar$e, he's got his special friend with him and as far as I'm aware nobody at Tigs has been nasty to his dad

I'm sure he is having a lovely time with his best bud but neither appeared to enjoy their match on Sunday at Exeter! My comment was more regard to the rugby being played which seems stifled, confused and without a plan.

Ford loves a gameplan that revolves around him, as we know, and that doesn't quite seem to be the case at Leicester.



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 11:00
I think the gameplan absolutely revolves around him at Tigers. Unfortunately, he's got a god awful back row in front of him.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 11:08
Quote:
hasta
I think the gameplan absolutely revolves around him at Tigers. Unfortunately, he's got a god awful back row in front of him.

To be fair at least they have a gameplan.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 11:18
Give it George was our game plan last season. Not great, Bob.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 11:27
The gameplan for now is to pass and catch, once we've nailed that we can get a more cunning one

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 11:44
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
I think the gameplan absolutely revolves around him at Tigers. Unfortunately, he's got a god awful back row in front of him.

To be fair at least they have a gameplan.

Since they are on their worst losing streak since 1965 do you mind if we don't copy it?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 12:00
Danny's long term form is not consistent, he's really not the future, probably not the world cup. On the other hand, he doesn't cube with a wealth of international experience to bring to the party and much of his game either can't be passed on or you wouldn't want it to be. Even after all that I still think I'd select him after Ford and Farrell.

Other than a flash of form now, when we don't really need it, what's he offering?

I think Eddie can see that he comes with a lot of risk and not much benefit. I think a similar metric was applied to roko, though with less baggage and attitude problems, he's still neither the past not the future.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 12:00
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
I think the gameplan absolutely revolves around him at Tigers. Unfortunately, he's got a god awful back row in front of him.

To be fair at least they have a gameplan.

Since they are on their worst losing streak since 1965 do you mind if we don't copy it?

But will they have lost more AP matches than us by the end of the season???

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 12:06
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
I think the gameplan absolutely revolves around him at Tigers. Unfortunately, he's got a god awful back row in front of him.

To be fair at least they have a gameplan.

Since they are on their worst losing streak since 1965 do you mind if we don't copy it?

But will they have lost more AP matches than us by the end of the season???

Whether they have or not, I still don't want to copy their game plan.

I just noticed that we are only ahead of them on BPs (both W6 L6) so those Exeter and Wasps consolations are making quite a difference.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 12:13
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
I think the gameplan absolutely revolves around him at Tigers. Unfortunately, he's got a god awful back row in front of him.

To be fair at least they have a gameplan.

Since they are on their worst losing streak since 1965 do you mind if we don't copy it?

Don't want us to copy them just to actually come up with some form of gamplan.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 13:22
For all the issues with Cipriani, for a World Cup in 20 months I'd rather have him as a back up to Ford than Lozowski.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 13:51
Lozowski gets in by being more versatile I would guess, EJ does seem to like his players to be able to cover lots of positions (like Daly, Nowell etc)?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 15:17
Ford?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 15:29
Quote:
hasta
Ford?

Yes they have a 10 who only plays 10, so I it seems that he would prefer others who play 10 and other positions? Ford seems to be the only one (outside the scrum halves) if you include Farrell, Slade, Daley, Nowell, JJ who has played on the wing and Ant + May? Doesn't Brown even cover the wing? Maybe I'm imagining it, but it seems that he does prefer a versatile back.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 16:18
Brown has played on the wing before, but not very well. May is definitely an out and out winger.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
03 January, 2018 16:32
Quote:
hasta
Brown has played on the wing before, but not very well. May is definitely an out and out winger.

Nice tache!

[en.espn.co.uk]

However his versatility threatened to undermine his chances of gaining a regular first-team slot as he was shunted around from wing to fullback and centre.

I'm sure there is a database somewhere which would tell us how many times he has played at each position, but he is more versatile than his performance last weekend would indicate! (I can't even remember seeing him at centre tbh, must have been very early in his career?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2018 16:33 by BathMatt53.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
04 January, 2018 16:52
Just catching up on the news, Johnny May looks like a surprised Gaul in that photo! what an expression. (Sm153)

http://www.espnscrum.com/PICTURES/CMS/23100/23141.1.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Going backwards
04 January, 2018 16:55
What is zis cheddar you 'ave given me?


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