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Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 16:34
With the latest updates in relation to our injury crisis, can someone enlighten me why we have not signed a medical joker to cover our missing stars ala Wasps and now Saracens. Louw and TB out long term - Ellis out all season, Ewels out for at least 3-4 weeks - Attwood not ready to return and even them unlikely to be fully match fit until the latter part of the season and Chateris having to be managed.

I haven't even got onto the front row. Why oh why do we not sign some cover? My worry is some of our players like Stooke have played too much and it is only a matter of time before their bodies give way given e attritional game nowadays or perhaps this might explain our dramatic drop in intensity against Sale and Wasps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2018 16:37 by Ali1969.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 16:37
Well, IIRC there's a limit in the salary you can pay for injury replacements; and we got several injury replacement THPs in earlier this season - I wouldn't be at all surprised if we've spent all we're allowed to here.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 16:40
I thought medical jokers were outside the salary cap? And as such had to be sanctioned by powers that be If not can someone explain how Wasps can possibly bring in a player such as Carr and Sarries heir new scrum half?

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 16:43
As Dan Evan's mentioned on Facebook the injury dispensation covers the whole squad and we must be very close to exhausting it with the 3 players we've brought in so far (Andrews, Charles and Wilson). So Bath will be limited by the normal salary cap if they choose to bring someone else in.

It is utterly ridiculous how unfortunate we've been with injuries for the past 2 seasons.

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 16:55
Personally I would like to just see players like Levi Douglas and Josh Bayliss given more gametime than bringing in players for a few months. We haven't been setting the world alight anyways so why not let these young guys with tons of enthusiasm get some gametime every now and then to avoid burn out of our other guys.

Through injury last year we saw people like Stooke, Obano and Zach Mercer really have to step up to the plate more and now some of them are 1st XV mainstays. Let's give Douglas, Bayliss and others the opportunity to do that this year!

At least that way we can justify some of the narrow losses we are having as opposed to just putting in fatigued performances from over working some players, particularly up front. I suspect we will make a load of changes anyways during the Anglo Welsh but it will be interesting to see how much TB and the coaches trust these youngsters given we are undoubted to pick up knocks in those tough Champions Cup games this month!



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight; 2018-19 Jonathan Joseph

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 17:33
Those mentioned above. Plus Perenise and it may be that Paz' pay for this year comes out of the injury pot for Catt?

We don't live in a world of infinite salaries or an infinite pool to cherry pick backups from and other clubs may be better prospects or can flash more cash than us presently.

Other teams have had it as bad, but perhaps not sustained as long as we have. There may be a correlation with the lack of possession and resulting amount of defending we have to do, but as most tackles seem to be two defenders on one attacker, this may not actually be the case and we are therefore just in the unlucky camp. Or sustained overplayed a la Lions/internationals.

 
Tomato Soup
Tomato Soup (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 17:44
The biggest medical Joker is the Attwood situation.

Surely he has to accept that his body has just given up on him and call it a day.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 17:50
Quote:
Tomato Soup
The biggest medical Joker is the Attwood situation.
Surely he has to accept that his body has just given up on him and call it a day.

not when he has a contract and the doc says that he is good to go. His long term injury is sorted and he tweaked a hammy which will be sorted fairly soon so not sure he's ready for the scrapheap just yet. Him and Ellis back for the season run-in sure would add some much needed 'grunt' that we are so used to hearing about...

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 18:58
Quote:
Ali1969
I thought medical jokers were outside the salary cap? And as such had to be sanctioned by powers that be If not can someone explain how Wasps can possibly bring in a player such as Carr and Sarries heir new scrum half?
IIRC the I jury dispensation is up to £450k, so long as the player is in the same position and no more expensive than the replaced player; and is also only available for players who miss more than 3 months of the season.
If you go over £450k, or the replacement player costs more, or the injured player returns earlier than expected; then the salary comes inside the cap.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
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wilshd
wilshd (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 19:03
None of Wilson Charles or Andrews will have been too expensive.

Used to think it was our bad luck that we were getting so many injuries but is it really surprising when you play with 30% possession every week? Don't think so...

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 19:51
Quote:
Tomato Soup
The biggest medical Joker is the Attwood situation.
Surely he has to accept that his body has just given up on him and call it a day.

How long did it take Jonny to get really fit again and then look what he did (albeit with a lot of Mediterranean sun!)

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 20:21
Quote:
wilshd
None of Wilson Charles or Andrews will have been too expensive.
Used to think it was our bad luck that we were getting so many injuries but is it really surprising when you play with 30% possession every week? Don't think so...

When Matawalu signed for Exeter, it was reported that Bath had to get him off the books as Kahn was being paid from the injury allowance, I imagine there is a similar situation with Paz and Perenise.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 22:07
This has made me even more pessimistic for the forthcoming fixtures. With so many missing & others over played I donít expect anything from Worcester or Scarlettís nor from whatever follows in the short term. I agree the best approach is to play the more promising academy youngsters who will at least benefit from the experience. The constant & repeated injuries to key players year after year makes the Bath Rugby experience less absorbing as we, like some other clubs, are fighting an uphill battle.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 22:24
Quote:
Bath Hammer
This has made me even more pessimistic for the forthcoming fixtures. With so many missing & others over played I donít expect anything from Worcester or Scarlettís nor from whatever follows in the short term. I agree the best approach is to play the more promising academy youngsters who will at least benefit from the experience. The constant & repeated injuries to key players year after year makes the Bath Rugby experience less absorbing as we, like some other clubs, are fighting an uphill battle.

Try supporting one of the Irish sides who play their B team most weeks with the stars kept for Europe and internationals, fit or not...

Unfortunately the flaw in your plan is that our academy is tiny and most of the kids in there would be crushed by some of the people they would be up against. The ones who could cope are already playing or have been promoted to the senior side. There are more academy coaches than kids in the team photo on the offy!

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 23:00
Tell you what, I could make myself free until the end of May (just before I go off on my first holiday) as I fancy being paid to enjoy Spa facilities, be fed 5 star food, provided with a Gieves & Hawkes Suit with a pair of brown Loakes brogues and as many Bath shirts and tee shirts and trainers as I can carry. May be the odd free ticket as well.

I am sure the physio team could sort out my dodgy knee, pins and needles (after a good sleep), tennis elbow, large stomach and athletes foot and provide a stronger pair of glasses as I have been putting off the eye test until the New Year.

I am damn sure I would pass the medical and quickly be accepted into the holiday, care free attitude of the rest of the squad and take my place on the treatment couchs, swimming pool, and join in the Video watching of rugby games, restaurant quality meals, and staying in 4 star hotels on away trips. (I fancy the Italian trip at the end of the month.) I expect we may get petrol money on some trips and even a sponsors car.

Yes I think I could do that for about 5 months and as I have a valid passport, I wouldn't be looking for a huge salary. It is negotiable and starting at £50K plus any appearance money and win bonuses. (Don't think on present form the latter is going to trouble the accountant.)

I am sure there must be others out there who could fill in various roles to help out the club in its hour of need and during (yet another) injury crisis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2018 23:05 by Bathovalballer.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
03 January, 2018 23:39
BoB and Tomato Soup getting their facts off the side of the Brexit Bus again. Repeat it until people become brainwashed. Howís the weather in St. Petersburg?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 07:18
BoB that arrangement suits me too, maybe we can have an open day for your first session at the Ďspaí as you have tackle practice with Stooke and Underhill in their fluffy white dressing gowns? Maybe followed by Obano scrum practice. Should be a nice relaxed morning for one and all?

As Rawce says, Ďrepeat until funnyí.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 07:34
Where do I sign up for tickets ? Imagine BT sport will be all over this one too.

BOvB : the more you write on ere, the more ridiculous you sound. (Sm132)

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 07:50
There has to be a financial constraint preventing us from getting more short term replacements, otherwise it's just incompetence from those in charge.

No doubt the threadbare squad will win the pointless AWC games, but none of the upcoming matches that really matter.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 08:01
Thatís the spirit OB.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 08:18
Quote:
BathMatt53
Thatís the spirit OB.

Yep the recent dire league performances have made me lose any hope that this could be a good season.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 08:24
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
BathMatt53
Thatís the spirit OB.

Yep the recent dire league performances have made me lose any hope that this could be a good season.

Think the message is loud and clear from this and the umpteen other posts of yours after every loss!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 08:37
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
BathMatt53
Thatís the spirit OB.

Yep the recent dire league performances have made me lose any hope that this could be a good season.

Think the message is loud and clear from this and the umpteen other posts of yours after every loss!

When i see a good performance I have/will praise the club, but recently there hasn't been anything to warrant any praise. Besides this is only a meaningless forum to exchange views and real support is given at the games.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 10:14
"Try supporting one of the Irish sides who play their B team most weeks with the stars kept for Europe and internationals, fit or not"

Isn't that a joy of ringfencing? It devalues the domestic league, in this case til it becomes a qualification and seeding exercise.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 14:50
FL, TF and Roko out long term yet no temporary replacements?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 14:57
I think that all of them were borderline in terms of qualifying for injury dispensation (i.e. duration of absence)? Besides which, who would you like to get in who would make up for the loss of those 3?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 15:08
Well Wasps and Sarries have plugged their holes so players are out there.

Haven't seen anything written that indicates we can't replace the huge gaps injury has left us with.

Just trying to understand why we're muddling through instead of reacting to the problem.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
benjbath
benjbath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 15:20
Pleased to hear Ross batty may be back soon, probably second choice now behind Dunn, but a great club player. Where is Tom Homer these days? Not that we are desperate back three, but he was looking really good. Re: Fly half berth I too would like Freddie to start, just to get some dynamism and pace in there.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 15:44
Quote:
OutsideBath
Well Wasps and Sarries have plugged their holes so players are out there.
Haven't seen anything written that indicates we can't replace the huge gaps injury has left us with.

Just trying to understand why we're muddling through instead of reacting to the problem.

That's a bit different - Nizaam Carr joined during the SH window and he is needed back soon.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

We are at the end of that window. Saracens have just signed a scrum half who won't even play, he is cover in case something happens to Spencer.

We seem to be OK in back row numbers, its the world class quality we will miss and those players aren't available at this time of the year.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 17:59
Quote:
OutsideBath
Well Wasps and Sarries have plugged their holes so players are out there.
Haven't seen anything written that indicates we can't replace the huge gaps injury has left us with.

Just trying to understand why we're muddling through instead of reacting to the problem.
For one, some or all of the reasons postulated throughout the thread?

Was the vacuum you live in designed by Dyson?

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:16
@Outside Bath please explain how you intend us to pay for these temporary signings, in light of posts earlier in this thread pointing out that there's no money to pay them with.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:22
Quote:
Which Tyler
@Outside Bath please explain how you intend us to pay for these temporary signings, in light of posts earlier in this thread pointing out that there's no money to pay them with.

BC is rich so if it's within the rules he should stump up the cash or watch the season disintegrate.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:33
And if it isn't in the rules? (it specifically isn't after all, as has been mentioned on this very thread, repeatedly)



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:43
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Which Tyler
@Outside Bath please explain how you intend us to pay for these temporary signings, in light of posts earlier in this thread pointing out that there's no money to pay them with.

BC is rich so if it's within the rules he should stump up the cash or watch the season disintegrate.

This is beginning to get weird, Tarquin is guilty of ruining the team somehow, Bruce should be throwing money to solve injury issues that may well not meet the criteria and we should bring in another new face for a 3 months only to leave in the summer.

Yet performances must improve amidst this disruption. We need some continuity not disruption. these injuries provide opportunities for other squad members, I just get the feeling even if we did bring in replacements Tarquin would be blamed for not bringing on fringe layers.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:43
Quote:
Which Tyler
And if it isn't in the rules? (it specifically isn't after all, as has been mentioned on this very thread, repeatedly)

Then we can't do it, but I haven't seen any reliable comment with a link proving we cannot bring in a suitable emergency replacement.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:50
How do you propose that we prove a negative?

OK, Iíll give it a go:

1) Owen Farrell: not available
2) Itoje: not available
3) billy v: injured
.....
.....
15324) Richie McCaw: helicopter pilot
15325) Anne Widdecombe: in CBB
15326) Elvis: dead (probably)

OK I think thatís all of them. They either arenít an improvement on the back rowers we have, they arenít available, or there isnít any injury cap left.

Regards

Bathmatt

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 18:57
"Injury Dispensations up to a maximum of £400,000 per season "

This took about 10 seconds to Google. There are further restrictions on that £400k if you can be bothered , follow the link at the bottom:

://www.premiershiprugby.com/salary-cap/

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 19:06
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Which Tyler
And if it isn't in the rules? (it specifically isn't after all, as has been mentioned on this very thread, repeatedly)

Then we can't do it, but I haven't seen any reliable comment with a link proving we cannot bring in a suitable emergency replacement.
here you go, and I apologise for not including a link this time, having had this same conversation every year for the last decade.
[bfy.tw]



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 19:18
You know full well that the amount Bath have already spent on emergency replacements isn't in the public domain so we will never be able to have a fully informed discussion on whether cap is available.

Either way it doesn't really matter as there's no sign of anything happening on that front so it's a pointless waste of our time to discuss further.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 19:24
Ah, ok, so we were supposed to divine that you wanted facts and figures for what we've paid the existing injury replacements within the cap, as you already knew the regulations. And we were supposed to know this by being entirely ignored.
Excellent.

As you say, you're now asking for the impossible.
However, I think it's fairly safe to suggest that 3 international props and an international hooker may not have come cheap enough to leave us enough cover for a couple of international flankers - even though the entire injury dispensation approximates the salary of a single international prop



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 19:54
I think we can safely assume that if it is in the interest of the team Tarquin will advise Bruce to open his Cheque book, but if it meant Bruce breaking the rules he would desist! Is that a reasonable assumption for the nay sayers?



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 20:10
Quote:
OutsideBath
You know full well that the amount Bath have already spent on emergency replacements isn't in the public domain so we will never be able to have a fully informed discussion on whether cap is available.
Either way it doesn't really matter as there's no sign of anything happening on that front so it's a pointless waste of our time to discuss further.

...but it was you who brought it up, at 2:50pm today. Then it was answered.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 21:34
Quote:
CoochieCoo
I think we can safely assume that if it is in the interest of the team Tarquin will advise Bruce to open his Cheque book, but if it meant Bruce breaking the rules he would desist! Is that a reasonable assumption for the nay sayers?

Steady on CC. That's getting dangerously close to common sense.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
04 January, 2018 23:57
Thanks to the prevailing voices of sanity.

Itís almost as if the same few characters are all deliberately trolling, ad infinitum.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 07:46
Quote:
Rawce
Thanks to the prevailing voices of sanity.
Itís almost as if the same few characters are all deliberately trolling, ad infinitum.


Perhaps, that's because they are!

 
Danchinho
Danchinho (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 08:19
I obviously don't know as much as most of you but I would find it hard to believe Scott Andrews, a guy who couldn't get in the Cardiff 1st team, was on Int'l level wages.
If Nathan Charles was that expensive, given that we've barely used him, why have we resigned him? Seems odd.
Should I accept these assertions as truth or should I be sceptical?
Given the array of stars in the Wasps squad, is it not just a little curious how they can seemingly find money for injury cover they need? One would imagine they'd right up against the cap as it is.



I probably don't know what i'm talking about.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 08:49
Quote:
Danchinho
I obviously don't know as much as most of you but I would find it hard to believe Scott Andrews, a guy who couldn't get in the Cardiff 1st team, was on Int'l level wages.
If Nathan Charles was that expensive, given that we've barely used him, why have we resigned him? Seems odd.
Should I accept these assertions as truth or should I be sceptical?
Given the array of stars in the Wasps squad, is it not just a little curious how they can seemingly find money for injury cover they need? One would imagine they'd right up against the cap as it is.

Thats the point - injury cover is additional to the cap if the injured player.

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

The current level of the Salary Cap for 2017-18 is £7m, plus two Excluded Players whose salaries sit outside the cap, enabling clubs to recruit and retain world class talent. Within the £7 million Salary Cap ceiling, clubs are encouraged to develop home grown talent by accessing up to £600,000 of Home Grown Player Credits. Also, they can provide an unlimited education (academic or vocational) fund to their players, and can replace long-term injured players without impacting on their Salary Cap ceiling.

Injury Dispensations* up to a maximum of £400,000 per season continue to be available to each Club, a new England Senior EPS or International Player Credit of up to £80,000 per player has been introduced to cover for player absence during international periods and there is a new overrun tax on any Salary spend of up to 5% over the Base level (5% being £350,000 in 2017-18)
.

First time I've noticed the bit about the £350k 'overrun tax'. So you can exceed the cap (by up to £350k) as long as you pay for it? Mind you the penalties are very large - £3 for every £1 spent over £200k!).

[* an "Injured Player" means any Senior Player of a Club who sustains an injury which has prevented or is anticipated to prevent him playing rugby for a minimum continuous period of twelve weeks within a Season]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2018 08:56 by BathMatt53.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 09:08
The overrun tax does seem new, probably a reasonable move, absolutely balancing the cap must be next to impossible without leaving a large margin. It doesn't seem to say what the tax is? I'm reading it as saying "you can spend up to 5% over the £7m, but you're going to get a penalty for that." I think it needs to be a relative high penalty, and I'd assume it is.

Mind you, this is extra complexity and I'm in two minds about how complex the cap is. On the one hand it seems to me is should be as transparent, simple and clear as possible. That seems almost a truism, except, I think it might work best (as it has in the past) being a bit grey. If, picking a club at random, Sarries want to spend a little more, but its within their budget and they aren't taking the @#$%& (Sarries haven't bought the AP in the way Toulon have tried), good luck to them. On the other hand, Newcastle(again random-ish) can say they are spending to the cap, but in fact are keeping within their means. In that case, clubs are keeping within their means, the AP is still competitive (Newcastle can beat Sarries), and the top clubs can benefit from their success to a degree. I guess there's a question about what happens if a club does decide to take the @#$%&, but I guess we (and Sarries) found out a couple of seasons back.

I think we could easily burn through £400k with only a small number of signings. Keep in mind that these are last minute signings and its a sellers market (we're the ones who need the player).

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 09:11
Quote:
Danchinho
I obviously don't know as much as most of you but I would find it hard to believe Scott Andrews, a guy who couldn't get in the Cardiff 1st team, was on Int'l level wages.
If Nathan Charles was that expensive, given that we've barely used him, why have we resigned him? Seems odd.
Should I accept these assertions as truth or should I be sceptical?
Given the array of stars in the Wasps squad, is it not just a little curious how they can seemingly find money for injury cover they need? One would imagine they'd right up against the cap as it is.

Despite the detailed explanations given I agree it doesnít make sense any more than Exeter being able to employ 10 back rowers & 5 scrum halves, any of which we would be happy to have playing for us!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 09:28
How many of those back rows and 10s would we have signed before they when to Exeter? I suspect that Exeter have the depth they do because they don't have many super stars (and do develop their own well).

What they do, that practically no one else does, is get more out of those non-superstars than "the sum of their parts".

The question is, could we do something similar? I have an annoying feeling we couldn't. At least not without finding our own Baxter, a very talented manager who all agree needs to be given maybe a decade (and a lot of support) to build his team.

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 09:48
To be fair I don't think we need Rob Baxter given that, and I appreciate Super Rugby and NZ rugby setup in general is different, but Todd Blackadder brought through or developed a hell of a lot of impressive players whilst at Canterbury and the Crusaders. Think the Whitelock brothers, Matt Todd, Joe Moody, Fruean, Jordan Taufua, Codie Taylor, Mitchell Drummond, Israel Dagg etc etc etc...


He's started bringing through some good players here too with Zach Mercer, Beno Obano, Josh Bayliss to name a few that are starting to emerge from the Academy ranks and play more prominent roles.

It doesn't take 5 minutes for these players to mature and develop into top quality athletes and rugby players though. I personally think they need the experiences more than us bringing in players who either are 1) short of match fitness or 2) not even first choice at their current clubs tbh. I don't see what signing another player for 3 months does to the group's cohesiveness and also the style of play.

You can't all complain that we are playing badly but then surely suggest that bringing in more players from outside the existing squad will help with that?



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BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 10:04
Quote:
DanWiley
The overrun tax does seem new, probably a reasonable move, absolutely balancing the cap must be next to impossible without leaving a large margin. It doesn't seem to say what the tax is? I'm reading it as saying "you can spend up to 5% over the £7m, but you're going to get a penalty for that." I think it needs to be a relative high penalty, and I'd assume it is.

- £0 to £49,999.99: £0.50 for every £1 overspend
- £50,000 to £199,999.99: £1 for every £1 overspend
- Over £200,000: £3 for every £1 overspend

These are 'automatic' overrun taxes and you can appeal them if something odd resulted in the overspend. Not sure what that would be.

As you can see the tax over £200k is akin to 'quickquid' (other payday loan companies are available).

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 10:25
Thanks Matt, that sounds pretty fair. Spending £200k amounts to a whole new player (of decent quality) and you rightly get whacked for it. Spending £50k because you slightly miss budgeted amounts to a slap on the wrist.

I think it is the long term nature of Baxter that is the key, though not wanting to under play his ability as a manager. I wrote something yesterday about our 10 situation and how we have two 10s more or less in their prime, both of whom are about the same level (just sub international) and both, rightly, want to play with no obvious ordering on them. When they leave or go into a decline, we'll have two big holes to fill and a whole new philosophy of play to incorporate. Not to mention a big cost as we buy in two expensive 10s in their prime. This does not seem ideal.

I think we should aim for the Farrell-Hodgson model. But that requires the Hodgson being totally sold to the club, he's got to want to see the club continue to succeed rather than demand his place on the team or head off for a pension. The Farrell then grows into the Hodgson and we get in a Lozowski. Hopefully because the Farrell has been at the club since he was young he naturally has that club mentality.

I appreciate that's really easy to say, but you can't even begin with the model we have. It takes a DoR/HC that's in place for longer than the time the CH is at the club. That's going to be longer than 3 years. 3 years seems to be a long innings for us as a HC/DoR. In any case we seem to like to spend cash on the next big thing too often.

I guess the question is, how long is TB going to be here? I may be misquoting rumours, but I'm sure I heard it was only a few seasons more. In which case, we're going nowhere however good or bad he is.

Not wanting to sound like some, but is this actually a set up Bruce will allow us to replicate? I don't get the impression any of our HC/DoRs have been allowed the scope/relationship that Baxter has enjoyed.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 11:02
Quote:
Danchinho
I obviously don't know as much as most of you but I would find it hard to believe Scott Andrews, a guy who couldn't get in the Cardiff 1st team, was on Int'l level wages.
If Nathan Charles was that expensive, given that we've barely used him, why have we resigned him? Seems odd.
Should I accept these assertions as truth or should I be sceptical?
Given the array of stars in the Wasps squad, is it not just a little curious how they can seemingly find money for injury cover they need? One would imagine they'd right up against the cap as it is.
please note, nobody is saying that Charles or Andrews was paid £400k. We're saying that the combination of Noguero Paz, Charles, Prerenise, Andrews, Mitchell and Phillips were all brought in after we knew the injury status of existing players in their positions, and that between them, will have cost more than £400k (specifically, £400k + any leeway we had in the cap, and possibly dipping into that £350k overspend)


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BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 11:28
Quote:
Which Tyler
please note, nobody is saying that Charles or Andrews was paid £400k. We're saying that the combination of Noguero Paz, Charles, Perenise, Andrews, Mitchell and Phillips

James Wilson?

Phillips wasn't injury cover and I'm not sure Anthony Perenise was either? Both were signed before the start of the season for the entire season.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 11:37
Yes, James.
They were brought in before the first match, but well after most squads were finalised, and IIRC, were brought in well after injuries to Attwood, Knight and Thomas were known and that we would need replacements.

Of course, not all will have been injury dispensation, they can't have been, their combined salary simply must be more than £400k; but they all qualify for having (some of) their salary counted in that dispensation.



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BathOtter
BathOtter (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 11:47
With Andrews being on loan, does that mean we pay his wages for the time he is here? Or do Cardiff Blues continue to pay his salary, grateful that we are able to give him game time and keep him match-fit if and when he is required by his home club?

I suppose it is similar to the likes of Homer being dual-registered - do we pay their academy wages and grateful that they are being developed and getting game time also, and Leeds etc get a decent, young player for free?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 11:50
Quote:
BathOtter
With Andrews being on loan, does that mean we pay his wages for the time he is here? Or do Cardiff Blues continue to pay his salary, grateful that we are able to give him game time and keep him match-fit if and when he is required by his home club?
I suppose it is similar to the likes of Homer being dual-registered - do we pay their academy wages and grateful that they are being developed and getting game time also, and Leeds etc get a decent, young player for free?

I thought the same about Guy Mercer. I assumed that the other club paid the wages or else there is no real advantage over dual-registration (or just keeping them at the club).

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 13:30
To answer the point that Dan W asks about long term strategy I believed Stuart Hooper had that type of role alongside the DoR.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 13:44
I did think of Stuart. I have to admit I'm seeing little evidence of his influence. We seem as knee jerk and starstruck as ever, but I can see it will take time. I don't see a squad developing: just a small number of big signings and an endless scramble for enough cover to fill the gaps.

I think that is why I thought of the relationship between the DoR and Bruce might be the issue. Are Todd and Stuart dictating the rugby with the unending support of Bruce? Or is it the other way around? As I say, I don't want to go into Bruce-bashing, and I might be being very unfair, but it feels like the latter and has done so for several generations of HC/DoR.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 14:14
But Hoops has only been in the role for a year or 2?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
05 January, 2018 14:17
Until we get a coaching team in for 5-6 years we won't have any success.

I got the impression that TB signed for 3 years and that would be it.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Injuries and short term replacments
07 January, 2018 09:41
TRP today reporting Flow out for 3mth with a knee injury but Underhill will be back next week. Disappointing news indeed...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

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