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DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 09:50
Maybe, but if we just wanted to give him money outside the cap.

You probably can't do exactly what I suggested anyway, otherwise we'd offer BB £3.50 a week plus a £1m contract for "scouting" in NZ when he's done, but I'm sure you could do something.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 09:52
Quote:
DanWiley
I think the cap just adds to the natural pressure of not wanting to pay more for something than its worth.
If there weren't a cap do you think Bruce would want to pay Banners more just because he's been here a while? If so, I'd say an easy solution would have been to offer him two contracts now: one the one we did, the second one that comes into force at the end of the first an appoints him official daisy counter for the rec (non-playing).

I doubt that would get through the regulations otherwise everyone would pay extra for counting daisies!



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 09:52
Quote:
DanWiley
I think the cap just adds to the natural pressure of not wanting to pay more for something than its worth.
If there weren't a cap do you think Bruce would want to pay Banners more just because he's been here a while? If so, I'd say an easy solution would have been to offer him two contracts now: one the one we did, the second one that comes into force at the end of the first an appoints him official daisy counter for the rec (non-playing).

Not sure what the second part means ...daisy counter? However, there can be no sentiment in this, Banners is an excellent stalwart of this club but Gloucester's offer was better and longer, if in 2 years time we had matched his offer and he had lost a yard of pace (he would be 33) I'm sure the board would be screaming for his cap to be used for a faster winger.

I don't think Banners would want to be retained or selected out of pity, he's not that sort of guy.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 09:53
Those posters who think its all fine and dandy that the club failed to hold on to him. need to get out more.
The rest of the Premiership is either thinking bonkers decision, or wishing that they had thrown their hat in the ring for his talent and team spirit. Bendy is the same generation as Banners at Bath all those years ago for those of you too young to remember. Don't think he has any regrets over moving to Clermont - European champions etc and very popular with their fabulous support. And where have Bath been over those years?

P.S. they need to change the ticket office automated answer, as there he is 'speaking directly' extolling the virtues of buying tickets for kids.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 10:19
Those posters who think its all fine and dandy that the club failed to hold on to him. need to get out more.

The club wanted to keep him, TB wanted to keep him, the fans wanted to keep him, TB wanted to keep him. Glos offered more than we felt we could pay. No need for the insults.

The rest of the Premiership is either thinking bonkers decision, or wishing that they had thrown their hat in the ring for his talent and team spirit.

Errr, an your evidence is? It was reported that Bristol wanted him. I haven't seen anything from Rob Baxter or Dai etc. so maybe you could point us to it?

Bendy is the same generation as Banners at Bath all those years ago for those of you too young to remember.

No need to be patronising Annie.

Don't think he has any regrets over moving to Clermont - European champions etc and very popular with their fabulous support. And where have Bath been over those years?

Quite right, he shouldn't have any regrets, he has been soaking up the french sun and playing for a fantastic team with a fantastic support.

P.S. they need to change the ticket office automated answer, as there he is 'speaking directly' extolling the virtues of buying tickets for kids.

He is a Bath Rugby employee until the end of the year and has said quite clearly that he wants to end on a high and he will give it his all. Do you think that kids should no longer watch him playing rugby? Seems a bit petty IMO.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 10:35
There is in no doubt in my mind that we are close to the cap. Meeting the Glawster offer would probably mean keeping Banas and sacrificing required players coming in within the cap. Remember existing AP players cannot be marquees. This balancing act is extremely difficult and to make accusations on the club that they should have done more without the full facts just shows complete naivety.

Banas had to think of his family first before the club and I am sure he would be the first to recognise that the Glaws offer meant it would jeopardise the club's recruiting capacity or even jeopardise one or two of his colleagues futures at the Club to make room for him.

Sorry to see him go and wish him and his family all the best and hope he stays in touch.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 10:39
Tigers made the mistake of treating Lewis Moody snd Dan Hipkiss really badly and it has shown that this had an effect on the relationship between the playing side and the management.

They clearly recognized this and made sure they did not make the same mistake with Tom Croft despite him being with his injuries being a prime candidate to be offloaded.

IMHO we made a huge error with Bendy and probably a bigger one with Banners. Like I said TB was very vocal in relation to wanting to keep Banners but this shows again a lack of unity between Playing side and management, couple this with no replacement or signings being announced is quite amateurish especially as they must have known the majority of BBW fans would be very upset - not even a caveat of a replacement signing being announced.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:00

P.S. they need to change the ticket office automated answer, as there he is 'speaking directly' extolling the virtues of buying tickets for kids.


Imagine the following scenario: Today Bath rugby deletes Banners from the voice mail:

This is a despicable act of depravity, a true BBW blood in the veins servant of the club, with talismanic qualities beyond reproach has been treated like a sack of $hit, I'm burning my season ticket forthwith!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:08
Did Tiggers really suffer as a result of Moody? I really can't see the case for Hipkiss either?

I don't think Bendy was an error as such, not an easily avoidable one at any rate. We had two top draw 15s, keeping them both happy was always going to be difficult. In losing one, who subsequently won player of the year (I think?), we kept one that went on to be a Lion. You could say we could have asked AW to play on the wing, but I don't think he'd have been happy with that.

I can't see how Banners is a bigger error. Losing Bendy when we did was a real shame, I'd be considerably less bothered if we lost him now. Moreover I really don't think Matt is in any danger of winning that award.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:17
I think Bendy was an error based on the fact that Mike Ford didnt like him/rate him.

Not sure about Banners, but BathMatt had it about right (Maybe BathMatt is Banners?)

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:27
(Sm111)

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:35
Quote:
Ali1969
Like I said TB was very vocal in relation to wanting to keep Banners but this shows again a lack of unity between Playing side and management, couple this with no replacement or signings being announced is quite amateurish especially as they must have known the majority of BBW fans would be very upset - not even a caveat of a replacement signing being announced.

TB in the Chron understanding why Banas decided to leave said this

Quote:
We’re working hard to ensure we get the right balance in the squad, taking into account the various complexities of building the squad we want long-term, and we will make further announcements on recruitment when appropriate.

There a few still to sort out whose contracts end this season, no doubt now Banas has made his decision they have the ability to work out who they need and who will come in.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Toast and Marmite (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:41
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Ali1969
Like I said TB was very vocal in relation to wanting to keep Banners but this shows again a lack of unity between Playing side and management, couple this with no replacement or signings being announced is quite amateurish especially as they must have known the majority of BBW fans would be very upset - not even a caveat of a replacement signing being announced.

TB in the Chron understanding why Banas decided to leave said this

Quote:
We’re working hard to ensure we get the right balance in the squad, taking into account the various complexities of building the squad we want long-term, and we will make further announcements on recruitment when appropriate.

There a few still to sort out whose contracts end this season, no doubt now Banas has made his decision they have the ability to work out who they need and who will come in.

It's almost as if it's actually a lot more complex than 'one out, one in' as some have suggested.



"No sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2018 11:43 by Toast and Marmite.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:43
Quote:
BathMatt53
(Sm111)

Not denying it then, good luck with the knuckle draggers!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:46
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BathMatt53
(Sm111)

Not denying it then, good luck with the knuckle draggers!

I definitely feel like I have played a game of rugby the morning after a Bath match but I think that could be due to falling over on the walk home and sleeping under a bench?

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 11:52
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BathMatt53
(Sm111)

Not denying it then, good luck with the knuckle draggers!

I definitely feel like I have played a game of rugby the morning after a Bath match but I think that could be due to falling over on the walk home and sleeping under a bench?

Tell us more Matt !!!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 12:16

 
BathHalfFull
BathHalfFull (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 14:03
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
BathHalfFull
Next time Bruce or Tarquin spin a load of guff about trying to instill a culture into Brand Bath I hope everybody reminds them of this moment. You can splash your cash around on the latest shiny big name (Moody, Beaver, Burgess) all you like but the one thing you can't buy is culture - that comes from within and is built for years through people like Banners. It is a sad sign of the way rugby is going and our club in particular is going under this ownership that our great wise leaders don't recognise that even putting sentiment to one side, it is worth investing in people like Banners who have lots to offer on the pitch and off it instead of some flashy new toy.

You realise that Moody signed 8 years ago? Have you been bottling this up all that time?

I assume that they weighed up the pro's and con's, made him an offer which they thought reflected his value at 31 years of age and it was gazumped by another team. None of us know what the state of the payroll is for the club so I'm not sure we should judge? For example would you prefer that we paid Banners more and then lost Watson somewhere else when his contract renews in 2019?

Sometimes in life (and business) two parties are just too far apart, but you assume that they didn't do everything that they can and, even worse, that they don't recognise the value of Banners to the team. I would counter that if anyone knew, it was them?

Thanks. Nice of you.

What is clear is that the club ballsed up negotiations. Yes of course there's a line you don't cross and there's a limit beyond which you don't pay and rightly so but as made clear in the article you just linked Bath botched their negotiations.

"Banners did not take well to being given a deadline in October by which to sign a non-negotiable deal and that was a factor in his decision."

There are issues stemming from his previous deal which he took in good faith that the club would do the right thing and they clearly had different ideas. Then the negotiating tactic they used clearly had the opposite effect to the one they'd have liked. Of course there are players in the past who have left for various reasons - Tindall for example demanded a ludicrous payrise and had been disruptive off the field for a fair time so when gloucester stumped up the silly money the club were right to let him go rather than overpay - but Banners is a different story - a player growing into a talisman who grounds the club in a culture (plus he's been one of our best/most consistent players over the last couple of tricky years). I've just seen bendy's tweet as well after someone mentioned it here and that is pretty revealing in itself.

In summary:
A) I'm gutted he's gone.
cool smiley It makes me not like the club I love as much as I did.
C) I'll get over it.
D) Good luck Banners - I hope you score a wonder try against us (with the match already safely won by us) and you give Brucie a deserved salute in celebration.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 14:17
Not sure if it was daft or arrogant of whoever is in charge of contract negotiations to expect Banners to sign for the same money. Not even an inflation rise? I certainly would have told them where to stick it, which I guess Banners did.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 14:28
Quote:
BathHalfFull

In summary:

A) I'm gutted he's gone.
C) I'll get over it.
D) Good luck Banners

Totally agree with this.

Chron report says the difference was £60k per year so not a small sum, particularly with the extra year thrown in.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 14:53
Quote:
BathMatt53
Chron report says the difference was £60k per year so not a small sum, particularly with the extra year thrown in.
Warning - back of an envelope maths coming up:

That extra £60k per year + an extra year; makes it sound that 30% extra for an extra year even more likely as the realistic case before the Chinese Whispers got started (some suggesting £30k extra, some suggesting double).
That theory would put Bath's offer at £200k; which sounds about right for an international player 5 years ago, or a squad starter currently. It also suggests that Bath offered £400k over 2 years, Glos offered £780k over 3 - dont blame him for taking that, and I don't blame Bath for not matching it.

The rest of the rumour about the non-negotiable offer and early deadlines sounds mean and mis-managed; but also sounds like I imagine common practice (hard-ball negotiating) to be in the business world.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2018 14:59 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 15:27
Quote:
Which Tyler

The rest of the rumour about the non-negotiable offer and early deadlines sounds mean and mis-managed; but also sounds like I imagine common practice (hard-ball negotiating) to be in the business world.

or do you want negotiating to go on for weeks and meanwhile all suitable replacements (or other ppositions to use the money) have been hoovered up by other teams. I have no problem with 'this is what we are offering -take it or leave it'. Would make buying a car or anything else so much easier and quicker. I'm not saying I think it always appropriate but if you want to speed things up it is a very good strategy.

Not wanting to swear but if the EU gave us a take it or leave it option, we could decide and move on one way or the other(after final parliamentary vote or second referendum) and get on with the other things in life. Would also mean Mr Davies etc. could sleep again.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 15:39
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Which Tyler

The rest of the rumour about the non-negotiable offer and early deadlines sounds mean and mis-managed; but also sounds like I imagine common practice (hard-ball negotiating) to be in the business world.

or do you want negotiating to go on for weeks and meanwhile all suitable replacements (or other ppositions to use the money) have been hoovered up by other teams. I have no problem with 'this is what we are offering -take it or leave it'. Would make buying a car or anything else so much easier and quicker. I'm not saying I think it always appropriate but if you want to speed things up it is a very good strategy.

Not wanting to swear but if the EU gave us a take it or leave it option, we could decide and move on one way or the other(after final parliamentary vote or second referendum) and get on with the other things in life. Would also mean Mr Davies etc. could sleep again.
There's a time and a place; and a difference between individuals.
If I'm negotiating something, and one party opens with "take it or leave it" - then I'm almost always going to leave it, because that sort of thing @#$%& me right off. For Banahan, we know from 5 years ago that he places a great deal of importance on long-term stability, hence his negotiating hard for a 5 years contract 5 years ago.
Personally, if we're talking about an item with a price, then I expect to pay the price (or choise not to buy it); if it's a negotiation, then I expect the ability to negotiate.
Equally, I'm weird.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 15:49
Words polite enough for this board fail me on Bath Matt whoever he likes to think he is as defender of all things Bath Rugby Plc.

He definitely 'needs to get out more', as I have had texts from a Saints, a Quins, A Wasps, an Exeter main supporting friends - all making the same comments! For the poster who thinks she/he is Matt, ........................ I don't think so.

As I commented and was slapped down on another thread, the bottom line appears to be all that matters.

My comment that Banahan is still on the automated voicemail was to indicate that although he is not considered valuable enough to hang on to even bearing in mind his talent and years of service plus 'added value' to the club etc., he is still to be used to sell tickets. I rest my case.
Very glad to know that the future of the club apologists support on this messageboard is in the hands of such discerning and knowledgeable posters.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 16:03
Quote:
hemington

Not wanting to swear but if the EU gave us a take it or leave it option, we could decide and move on one way or the other(after final parliamentary vote or second referendum) and get on with the other things in life. Would also mean Mr Davies etc. could sleep again.

They pretty much are. It's Davis and co who in pursuit of the cake-and-eat-it Brexit we were promised keep begging for 'flexibility' and 'imagination'.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 16:06
All, purely as it's so divisive, would you mind keeping Brexit talk to that thread, even in metaphor.

 
MESSAGES->author
Toast and Marmite (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 16:13
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Words polite enough for this board fail me...

Well why not refrain from posting and throwing ad hom attacks all over the place.



"No sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you."

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 16:20
I just don’t think that it’s all part of some Tarquin-led evil conspiracy to make Bath rubbish Annie, that’s where our views differ.

It’s annoying, but these things happen and life moves on for both Banners and the club.

Try to enjoy tonight’s game, despite it being organised by Bath Plc.

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 16:30
BathMatt I do not believe anyone thinks Tarquin is trying to bring Bath down, the problem is every time he is shown or personally when I have heard him speak he does not show the empathy or passion for rugby or the club. That is not a slur on him and it maybe the way he is and that cannot be helped, unfortunately and I Hope no-one takes this the wrong way but my experience of financiers and money men and women are that they unfortunately tend to be quite grey and have a lack of enthusiasm which often comes down to the field they work in - Cold hard currency.

Next to BC, Tarquin is the main man and unfortunately he is always going to be in the firing line.

When NB was in that position however seemed to have a personality which came across as a man who really was a fan not just of Bath Rugby but sport in general, I am sorry to say Tarquin does not!!!

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 January, 2018 22:06
Think its you that are paranoid.
Anyway, after tonights dire inconsistent performance are you also going to deny that there is something amiss with the team?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 00:06
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Think its you that are paranoid.
Anyway, after tonights dire inconsistent performance are you also going to deny that there is something amiss with the team?

Well you were DESPERATE for us to do badly and you got your wish. Tarquins fault no doubt you must be very pleased.

 
Jeb01
Jeb01 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 00:59
Childish. Poor performance tonight. Banahan one of Bath’s better performers. He still has two or three seasons at Premiership level. Pity Bath can’t accommodate that.

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 10:09
BathMatt I have the utmost respect for your views however that last post really has let you down. Look most BBW supporters are going to be disappointed and angry to lose what they consider Mr Bath.

I do not believe anyone is personally attacking Tarquin as a person, if they are without knowing him they should be embarrassed, however there is no denying he is responsible for the signing and re-signing of players and the day to day running of the club, therefore he is going to be responsible and to be fair whenever I have heard him speaking at meetings etc he has not helped himself.

At the start of the season if you asked anyone in rugby which player would be changing clubs Banners would not even figure, he optimizes Bath and losing someone like him can have a devastating effect on the team, club and definitely the supporters.

You cannot take last nights performance on its own, however couple it with our capitulation against Sale and Wasps and Exeter in the last 2 months is really concerning and shows without a shadow of a doubt all is not well in the camp at the moment and TB has not been a cheerful sole for some time.

I would not be surprised with a change of coaching team at the end of the season, it must be crippling for an All Black legend to see his side show such a lack of pride and passion. I hope he stays but he just seems to be tired and almost forced to say the corporate tripe every interview, about how he is proud and the boys are working great, and everything is hunky dory, blah blah blah, whilst his face tells a completely different story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/01/2018 10:12 by Ali1969.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 11:26
Quote:
Ali1969
I do not believe anyone is personally attacking Tarquin as a person, if they are without knowing him they should be embarrassed, however there is no denying he is responsible for the signing and re-signing of players and the day to day running of the club, therefore he is going to be responsible and to be fair whenever I have heard him speaking at meetings etc he has not helped himself.

+1

I'm guessing he's also partly responsible for appointing TB as head coach and that clearly hasn't worked either.

My main concern now is the retention of our top players such as Anthony Watson, is he really likely to want to stay beyond his current contract as he has little chance of winning trophies with Bath?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 11:30
Sorry, Tarquin is the one responsible for player recruitment and retention, not say, a Director of Rugby?

 
Ali1969
Ali1969 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 11:48
The DOR will draw up a list of players they want to re-sign and feel they require but e money men are the ones who have the final say and deal with the negotiations.

Our DOR has made it very clear that he wanted Banners to stay, but the deal could not be struck as Dan Evans stated in the Chronicle it is such a shame their was no give or take or apparent willingness to meet half way.

Setting an ultimatum is never helpful in these cases.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 11:53
A Ben Kay article in The Times today discusses this topic and Banners move. It's a well written, thoughtful piece and his last sentence sums it up v well, "Loyalty, in most cases, is the preserve of fans, not players or coaches."...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
westondave
WestonDave (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 13:06
I've said this elsewhere but it applies here as well.

Swap Roko for Brew and we had out for at least a good chunk of the second half last night, what constitutes many peoples view of our best backline "You can't let Banners go, why isn't Freddie getting picked" etc. Bald truth is that backline was toothless and seriously outplayed by Scarlets so it needs to change. We aren't going to be able to do that unless we lose some players and bring in better. And that can't just mean getting rid of some cheap fillers like James Wilson (who'll be on peanuts) and signing a decent prospect as well as giving Banners a payrise that would probably have covered most of what Wilson gets paid.

Banners scored a great try last night - just. Had Brew been slightly luckier he'd have got the same trick down on the otherside. On the other hand, rightly or wrongly Banners has a reputation for being slow on the turn, which makes the sort of chip over that he scored from but also their wing scored against him a worthwhile thing to try. He's a lovely guy, who's given us great service, but he's not perfect and it remains possible in my mind that we may be able to do better for the available money given we already have two other big boshy wingers in Brew and Roko. I can also entirely understand that a team that doesn't have that option already and wants to add that to their squad might see more value than we do.

 
Awp24975
Awp24975 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 13:19
Quote:
WestonDave
I've said this elsewhere but it applies here as well.
Swap Roko for Brew and we had out for at least a good chunk of the second half last night, what constitutes many peoples view of our best backline "You can't let Banners go, why isn't Freddie getting picked" etc. Bald truth is that backline was toothless and seriously outplayed by Scarlets so it needs to change. We aren't going to be able to do that unless we lose some players and bring in better. And that can't just mean getting rid of some cheap fillers like James Wilson (who'll be on peanuts) and signing a decent prospect as well as giving Banners a payrise that would probably have covered most of what Wilson gets paid.
Banners scored a great try last night - just. Had Brew been slightly luckier he'd have got the same trick down on the otherside. On the other hand, rightly or wrongly Banners has a reputation for being slow on the turn, which makes the sort of chip over that he scored from but also their wing scored against him a worthwhile thing to try. He's a lovely guy, who's given us great service, but he's not perfect and it remains possible in my mind that we may be able to do better for the available money given we already have two other big boshy wingers in Brew and Roko. I can also entirely understand that a team that doesn't have that option already and wants to add that to their squad might see more value than we do.

+1. Excellently put!

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 21:13
Very well written Westondave, much of which many of us agree with.

It is increasingly obvious on recent defeats, many of our squad are not up to top class, fast moving and thinking rugby and need to be replaced. That is not going to happen overnight, and probably would be too costly to buy in all new players so we need to develops some of our own and groom youngsters with potential.

It also means IMO to appoint a strong and influential on field captain who knows the game and had the courage to lead from the front and give stick and approbation when it is deserved. We truly have not had a decent on field captain since Andy Robinson or the great Jon Hall. Leadership is a valuable skill in itself, and how we have suffered by not finding a good one ourselves. IMO Garvey is not up to the task and he even struggles to get in the side if all our squad are available and fit. He is like a cart horse and has not produced anything of significance. Due to his lack of speed, his only position is second row but for that he needs to add muscle and bulk.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 January, 2018 22:18
I always thought Guy Mercer captained the side well.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 08:54
Quote:
Boldangrey
I always thought Guy Mercer captained the side well.

Do you mean as club captain, I dont think he was that on-field capatain very often.

On reflection I'm more pi$$ed off twith Banners leaving than I was initially

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 09:13
BOB,

You might have hit on something here, it's the continuing procession of powder puff captains:

Hooper, Mercer, and now Garvey (who needs muscle and bulk, the carthorse!)

Not to mention Ewels, tipped as a future captain

Hopefully Todd is reading this.

 
dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 09:19
Garvey’s been one of our best and most consistent players for the last three or four seasons. Questioning his ability - captaincy skills or otherwise - is a new low, an insult to the player and the intelligent rugby chat that (occasionally) breaks out on these ere boards. Bore off.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 09:45
Don't like peeps blaming one player, and certainly not the Captain who always has a tricky role to play between mgt and the rest of his team mates.

Maybe just like anyone else he is having an out of form purple patch and a bit fed up at carrying out instructions with gameplans which don't seem to work!

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 11:23
Tarquin MacDonald appears to attract much more criticism than previous incumbents of his role simply because of his christian name, in my opinion.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 11:26
Never liked MacDonalds, myself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/01/2018 11:41 by Boldangrey.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 11:31
Quote:
@Hydor18
Tarquin MacDonald appears to attract much more criticism than previous incumbents of his role simply because of his christian name, in my opinion.

I think you have a point, for a short time i thought this was a joke along the lines of the prawn sandwich comments, then i realised it was his name

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 13:37
Quote:
@Hydor18
Tarquin MacDonald appears to attract much more criticism than previous incumbents of his role simply because of his christian name, in my opinion.

I think it's more the job he's doing and the way he comes across in season ticket holder events rather than his Christian name. Although that may not help.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 16:15
I'm not sure Woody gets your humour/sarcasm BnG, nevertheless keep at it, at the very least it amuses me!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 16:57
Quote:
shipwrecked
I'm not sure Woody gets your humour/sarcasm BnG, nevertheless keep at it, at the very least it amuses me!

If you mean on Mercer, you are right it went over my head BNG pointed this out

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 20:35
Quote:
shipwrecked
I'm not sure Woody gets your humour/sarcasm BnG, nevertheless keep at it, at the very least it amuses me!

(Sm157)

Cheers SW. Woody's on side!

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
16 January, 2018 22:38
Quote:
Bathovalballer
It also means IMO to appoint a strong and influential on field captain who knows the game and had the courage to lead from the front and give stick and approbation when it is deserved. We truly have not had a decent on field captain since Andy Robinson or the great Jon Hall. Leadership is a valuable skill in itself, and how we have suffered by not finding a good one ourselves. IMO Garvey is not up to the task and he even struggles to get in the side if all our squad are available and fit. He is like a cart horse and has not produced anything of significance. Due to his lack of speed, his only position is second row but for that he needs to add muscle and bulk.

Probably the stupidest thing you've posted in a long time. Ok, three days. The bit about Garvey is as ignorant as it is out of order.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
17 January, 2018 07:26
Also known as 'who is BoB going to blame given Ewels wasn't playing?'

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
17 January, 2018 08:29
Ewels seen casting spells over a simmering cauldron in the Sports Centre Car Park.


That must be the answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2018 08:30 by Boldangrey.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
17 January, 2018 08:58
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Bathovalballer
It also means IMO to appoint a strong and influential on field captain who knows the game and had the courage to lead from the front and give stick and approbation when it is deserved. We truly have not had a decent on field captain since Andy Robinson or the great Jon Hall. Leadership is a valuable skill in itself, and how we have suffered by not finding a good one ourselves. IMO Garvey is not up to the task and he even struggles to get in the side if all our squad are available and fit. He is like a cart horse and has not produced anything of significance. Due to his lack of speed, his only position is second row but for that he needs to add muscle and bulk.

Probably the stupidest thing you've posted in a long time. Ok, three days. The bit about Garvey is as ignorant as it is out of order.

Quite simply too crowded a field to judge.

 
MESSAGES->author
Widcombe Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 15:06
Banners is on this weeks Rugby Pod. He was given a very short time to accept Bath’s offer of a new contract.

Doesn’t sound like a great way to deal with a long serving club man

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 16:22
Pretty sure Tarquin said in an open forum that he knows he mishandled that.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 19:09
Great job Tarquin and Dave Thompson, as always, brilliant contract negotiation work thumbs down

(Sm16)

Quote:
“It was never about money. It all kicked off with the negotiations and I was on a timescale,” he said.
“Being there for 12 years, I thought I’d have a bit more time to make a decision but obviously it was taken off the table pretty soon before December 31 and once that was taken away I had to look at what was best for me and my family.”

Banahan also revealed that Director of Rugby Todd Blackadder was not in charge of the discussions surrounding his contract and admitted that can cause problems.

“I know it’s not coming from Todd [Blackadder] so all I know is that it comes through a representative of the club and I don’t know who’s above that,” he told The Rugby Pod.

“I can only speculate who it is but I think when you look at how coaches want their players and we’ve gone through so many coaches maybe that might be the reason why because who’s team is it sometimes.”

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 19:19
Quote:
hasta
Pretty sure Tarquin said in an open forum that he knows he mishandled that.

Not too good at that part of his job then.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 19:23
Hard to understand how they could have screwed that up so badly. Ok they had a budget but there are ways of having a sensible chat about it and if you can’t come to an agreement then so be it...sounds like they made a complete horlicks of the whole thing. Lesson learned I would hope?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 19:41
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
Pretty sure Tarquin said in an open forum that he knows he mishandled that.

Not too good at that part of his job then.

Pretty tough to assess value at this stage, ask me after 2 seasons of Banners at Glaws and Joe C/Roberts at Bath. But yeah lesson to be learned.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 21:47
Perhaps contract negotiations to achieve the outcome the Coach desires, over and above the reasonable financial aspect, had better be allocated to someone who knows what they are doing.(Sm145)

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 21:53
That's what was tried with Mike Ford. It was an absolute disaster. Fearns, Bendy, Devoto, Eastmond, George Ford leaving are all directly attributable to his squad/man-management approach. Comparably the Banas situation is far more tough to read whether it was the right call.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 22:01
Quote:
hasta
That's what was tried with Mike Ford. It was an absolute disaster. Fearns, Bendy, Devoto, Eastmond, George Ford leaving are all directly attributable to his squad/man-management approach. Comparably the Banas situation is far more tough to read whether it was the right call.

Whilst it may or may not have been the right call, it seems like it was undertaken badly. Why make an offer and then withdraw quickly when no decision had been made? Seems odd.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 22:03
Be nice if someone was held accountable for the Banners contract negotiations mess.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 22:15
They didn't withdraw the offer, they made an offer with a deadline to accept. The offer was probably a little low and the timeline a little short and so Banners looked elsewhere. The timeline pressure was probably a mistake. Whether resigning Banners or not was the right call can't be judged yet.

Given the insane number of mistakes made by everyone in the club for the last few seasons, I'm willing to give Tarquin the benefit of the doubt, particularly given all the other signings seem to have be handled pretty well and the stadium is being handled extremely professionally.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
11 May, 2018 22:37
Quote:
hasta
They didn't withdraw the offer, they made an offer with a deadline to accept. The offer was probably a little low and the timeline a little short and so Banners looked elsewhere. The timeline pressure was probably a mistake. Whether resigning Banners or not was the right call can't be judged yet.

There's two parts in my mind:

1) The deadline offered to Banners. A 31 Dec deadline is not unusual in Prem Rugby. Maybe some.discretion for his longevity wouldn't have been amiss, but I suspect financially they were planning for next year.

2) The long term value of losing Banners... I rate Banners and his commitment. That'll be hard to replace. His production this year has picked up but it has been sporadic (why he didn't just play wing?).

Hard to tell. There are better rugby players available and hopefully we've signed them. There is no better club man with his intangibles. It will be interesting to see which is worth more.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 May, 2018 13:25
You would have thought that if the power in the club wanted to keep Banners then the message back with reasonable notice would have been "hey, this is the final offer and we need a definite yes or no by the end of the week"

Doesn't sound like that kind of dialogue was happening - maybe it was because Cokasinga was lined up and they really wanted to seal that deal

Always sad when a club legend moves on and these things should always be done with more respect but keeping DoR away from contract negotiations is absolutely right. It would have placed TB in a very difficult position

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: Banners to Glos
12 May, 2018 14:08
It is the inevitable consequence of the good effect of the rationing pressure caused by having a salary cap

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 May, 2018 14:09
gaz

I think that was the message. Also the issue as Banners wanted more time to consider staying for that offer, or moving for a better one.

The Club wanted to keep Banners and Tarquin has acknowledged that the time pressure forced Matt's hand - which he and the club regret.

My interpretation is that the 31 Dec deadline was so the club would know his decision and could (if necessary) start talking to targeted replacements, not the other way round.

It is done now though. Hopefully J Cokasiga will prove to be an effective and popular replacement.

That would not mean we don't miss Banners, or regret losing him.

PG

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
12 May, 2018 14:57
Well, Banners’ comments certainly seem to agree with those saying Todd is not involved in contract negotiations which is bonkers for me. Also seems to contradict what Todd and Tarquin have said at various ST events. Something doesn’t stack up. Hopefully the new contracts position will clear things up.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 May, 2018 09:45
I note that some are desperate to explain away something that should not have happened as it did. Most of us are not that gullible. Either it was a major mismanagement or it was the outcome the club wanted.

 
Long Term
Long Term (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 May, 2018 10:07
If I was to say,' if Banners was loyal to the club he would have taken the offer made',it would be rightly said that he was making a stupid financial decision, he has to put his family first. Does the opposite not apply for the club if an increased offer would upset the delicate financial planning involved in building a squad for the future? That is not to say that the club didn't handle the negotiations badly, as they often seem to do,in not respecting Banners huge contribution to Bath.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
13 May, 2018 12:00
Tarquin has admitted that the whole affair was badly handled. We appear to be going round in circles and some of us may disappear up their.... as a result! winking smiley



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
14 May, 2018 09:50
The more I think about this the better I think it has worked out potentially - bar Banners going to our auld enemies.

Banners has given a heck of a lot of his career to us and we have been lucky to see him play his prime years for us which has been fantastic. He is truly a club legend - regardless of being top try scorer etc - and it has been a priviledge to watch him terrorise teams. Sometimes though it is better to go out a hero than stay too long and have fans last memories of you be you getting increasingly slower, less durable and eventually you may even find yourself standing in the way of developing talent.

I read an article by Brian Moore that said the hardest part of managing a team these days is deciding when to let older talent go and it is undoubtedly tough. Banners made the right decision for his family and I respect that fully but I also appreciate the decision making of the club in not being offering him a massive pay cheque due to factors such as age etc.

It is happening more and more as well. Look at Haskell and Cipriani at Wasps who were both academy products there - admittedly they took time away from Wasps too - but both are being replaced by younger models despite Cips in particular being in perhaps his hottest ever form! I think CoochieCoo is right and we could go in circles on it all day though as sentimental value for fans is not always the required business value that management need to consider too.



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight; 2018-19 Jonathan Joseph

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
14 May, 2018 12:02
Cips is a bit different, he's hardly been wedded to a club. Or if he was he's been a very naughty boy.

I don't think many have actually won out of this. I suspect Glaws have paid too much. We've lost a key asset. Overall I think Banners would have been better off staying.

I reckon Banners will have a good season next year and notably less of one the one after. He could have been good for us next season then taken on a more mentoring role (particularly for JC4) in the following seasons moving to a back room roll after that with the associated testimonials etc. He could definitely picked up retirement work in Bath through his profile. As he's gone I suspect neither the back room job will be there nor the testimonial and much of his local profile will have diminished.

It's such a shame we couldn't scale JC4s contract with Banners. Next year JC4 gets paid relatively little and Banners is still a top earner. The year after JC4's increases (as he improves) and Banners decreases and so on. But I don't think the cap works like that?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
14 May, 2018 12:12
Quote:
DanWiley
But I don't think the cap works like that?

Like what? The accounts are retrospectively compared against the cap so you can do what you want as long as you are confirmed to have been within them when they are audited later on.

The averaging / weighting of the salary only relates to the 'excluded' player(s). So you can't say Toby F is an excluded (i.e. marquee) one season and pay him £10m then £1 for the subsequent seasons when he isn't nominated as one. For everyone else who isn't the excluded players you can divide the pot as you wish from year to year.

One thing that I did think was difficult is that the rumoured switch of the Ulster chaps to Sale included match bonuses for games played. That could get messy but then I assume that Sale are nowhere near the cap at the moment at least.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
14 May, 2018 14:49
"The averaging / weighting of the salary only relates to the 'excluded' player(s)."

I didn't realise it only applied to marquees. I did think, after I'd commented, that it might work any way. Picking some figures from the air, what I was suggesting was something like:

year 1: Banners £200k, JC4 £100k
year 2: Banners £150k, JC4 £150k
year 3: Banners £100k, JC4 £200k

Obviously, its water under the bridge and probably not as simple as that, but would that of worked? Both players average salary £150k.

I don't know how performance based bonuses work, presumably you have to set aside some sort of allowance and be careful. Perhaps that's why some players don't get played so much, they are trying to ration out a performance bonus.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
14 May, 2018 14:57
That JC salary structure was how the Jackson salary was being reported (different sums).

[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]

The Rugby Paper understands fly-half Jackson has signed the heads of terms on a three-year deal to move to Greater Manchester this summer.

The Sharks offered the 26-year-old, who has won 25 international caps, £320,000 in the first year rising to £330,000 in the second then £340,000 in the third and final.

We believe centre Olding has verbally agreed a two-year deal but have been unable to establish that heads of terms have been signed.

The 25-year-old, who has four Ireland caps, was offered £130,000 plus £500 per start in year one rising to £160,000 plus £500 per start in the second and final.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
15 May, 2018 18:16
Can only be for cash flow as I’m sureback loaded contracts aren’t allowed under the salary cap rules.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
15 May, 2018 18:58
Quote:
TCM2007
Can only be for cash flow as I’m sure back loaded contracts aren’t allowed under the salary cap rules.

I think they are - certainly when I read the rules the other day I could only find reference to 'excluded players' when it comes to averaging. It only matters when it is a marquee I think.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Banners to Glos
15 May, 2018 22:27
There is no restriction on back loading contacts - it's actually quite common.

Whatever the salary is for that salary cap year is counted against the cap (only the excluded marquee amount averages). It might reduce your cap amount in year one but it'll cost you more in cap in the latter years (where you will probably be back loading your be contacts).

There might be some restriction against extreme salary loading i.e. £300k in year 1, £0 in year 2/3 but it isn't mentioned in the salary cap rules and I hope no player would accept such terms.

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