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MESSAGES->author
FourSticks (IP Logged)

Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 19:27
With the likely move of Banahan, and previously, Ford's return to Leicester, I started thinking about whether ANY leaver went on to better things elsewhere (and, as a consequence, could be seen as a real loss to Bath).

Strangely, I couldn't come up with that many names. Here's my punt:

From the nineties:

Fraser Waters, Trevor Woodman, Jason Robinson, Deiniol Jones

From the noughties:

Gareth Cooper, Mike Catt (not so much better things, as left too early)

From the tensies(!):

Aaron Jarvis, Steve Borthwick (as per Catty), Nick Abendanon (as per Catty), Olly Woodman, Julian Salvi, George Ford, (and possibly Will Spencer).

Ironically, the player I think we most missed was Olly Barkley when he had his year in the wilderness at Gloucester - the Claassens-James-Barkley axis was developing very nicely just prior to his departure.

Given teams like Bristol and London Irish (to name but two) have supplied almost countless players to other teams, it would appear to me that Bath largely get it right when it comes to letting players go.

Thoughts?

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 19:45
Dan Lyle



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 19:47
Definitely Malco, really miss his inside knowledge and gruntyness in the tight(Sm100)

Beyond him Iíd say Bendy and Borthwick.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 19:55
Quote:
Beergoggles
Definitely Malco, really miss his inside knowledge and gruntyness in the tight(Sm100)
Beyond him Iíd say Bendy and Borthwick.

I'd second those.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 20:02
Joe Maddock

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 20:47
Joe didn't go on to do anything, he was aging and, sentiment aside, we let go at just the right time.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 21:03
Surprised no one has mentioned any ex girlfriends, but keeping it on topic I would say Borthwick.

 
dannyf2
dannyf2 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 21:56
Abendanon and Borthwick for me

 
alibev
alibev (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 22:07
I hear Burgess is doing quite well...

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 22:15
Quote:
DanWiley
Joe didn't go on to do anything, he was aging and, sentiment aside, we let go at just the right time.

He managed a season with Treviso and two with Saracens before becoming a successful coach.

A valuable senior player, would have been a good player coach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2018 22:16 by Boldangrey.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 23:17
Harsh to miss out Tinds and Balsh. Borthwick and Bendy are good shouts. Losing Borthwick and Barkley the same summer was a killer.

 
Biddy
Biddy (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 23:18
Agree with most of those posted, but feel that we let Catty go a season too soon - also comments for and against Banners move all have good points, but I hope we donít lose his ď Talisman ď effect at the club!
For sure Bath Rugby will always be in his blood - great servant and great bloke!

 
stuart turner
Loiner (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
08 January, 2018 23:20
Balshaw?

 
Knipm
Knipm (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 04:59
Catty was great but was left out pretty constantly (due to injury apparently) under Foley and it was pretty acrimonious in the end, he then rediscovered form and fitness at Irish (ala Wilks when moving France) for a season or 2, it was just a shame to see the end of that era.

Jason Robinsonís a great shout (particularly compared to Henry Paul from the same season!). Bendy and Borthwick probably those who had the biggest impact/ improvement after leaving, as said.

Fearns also went on to good things up until injury this season.

Burgess is still gutting- the fall out from that was a major instigator for the challenges/ not kicking on from the great season. The England call up totally screwed him as he was completely scapegoated after the WC and as he had no major objectives left to achieve in Union (when stated goal was international Rugby/ World Cup which heíd achieved well ahead of schedule), leaving was probably not as difficult a decision as we felt at the time - why bother slogging away for some club honours when the fingerís been pointed at you for the failure of a home World Cup and no one can agree where you play? His performances in the back row at the end of the season were coming on enormously and despite it probably rubbing all of those not in Fordís in-crowd up enormously (eg Fearns) he was a definite leader.

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 06:58
Tom Biggs and Danny Grewcock albeit he wasn't playing but great to have around coaching



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2018 07:02 by Ian E.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 09:26
"He managed a season with Treviso and two with Saracens before becoming a successful coach.
A valuable senior player, would have been a good player coach."

He managed a few completely unremarkable seasons where his ability was no where near what it was in previous years. That's not value for money. The suggestion he'd have been a good coach seems rather speculative.

For me he's an example of a player that was fantastic to have whilst we had him, but we let go at the right time.

I don't lament Catty so much either, I think had we kept him he'd have continued in his form with us and retired in a disappointing end to great career.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:13
Nick Abendanon would be my pick, I always looked forward to the game more if he was in the team. I remember an away game at the Chiefs where he came off the bench and won the match for us with a chip and chase [IIRC] try. He could run a counter attack through a clogged up midfield like no-one I have seen since, what he would start others would finish. Recognition as European player of the Year in 2015 was well deserved, independent confirmation of his talents and I would have him as #15 in my all time Bath XV ahead of Perry and Watson...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:17
I'd say Jason Robinson could run through a clogged defence as well as (if not a little better) than Nick, but that's pretty high praise.

 
Awp24975
Awp24975 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:18
Probably not the most, but gutted when Matt Carraro left. Was Mr consistent and we always seemed to play better with him in the team somewhere. Great player, very versatile.
Biggs, Borthwick, Tinds and Abendenon also.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:23
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Nick Abendanon would be my pick, I always looked forward to the game more if he was in the team. I remember an away game at the Chiefs where he came off the bench and won the match for us with a chip and chase [IIRC] try. He could run a counter attack through a clogged up midfield like no-one I have seen since, what he would start others would finish. Recognition as European player of the Year in 2015 was well deserved, independent confirmation of his talents and I would have him as #15 in my all time Bath XV ahead of Perry and Watson...

This, there was something brillant about the way he accelearated, used to love it every tiome he cought the ball

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:39
Quote:
DanWiley
I'd say Jason Robinson could run through a clogged defence as well as (if not a little better) than Nick, but that's pretty high praise.

I remember watching JR play for Bath, I think it was 1996 in a mid week game at home v Swansea [?], and there was an early sign of his talent. A Swansea kick/chase ahead rolled into the in goal area under the posts at the club house end and we all, including the other 29 players expected him to dot the ball down for a 22m drop out restart. Instead he picked it up turned on a sixpence and weaved his way to the 22m line as we all held our breath and thought what on earth is he playing at? Bath did recycle the ball and clear their lines and we were all left a little breathless as we scratched our heads...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:55
Abendanon for me, in terms of a player that I miss watching and player a who has gone on and got better.

I wouldíve loved to have seen him stay and work with Watson and Roko in a back three for a season or two. I think he wouldíve liked that too, but Iím so pleased for him, given his lack of England recognition, that he took a gamble, went overseas and has been handsomely rewarded, in so many ways! Good on him. Would still love him back to share the 15 shirt with AW!

Slightly leftfield and not entirely serious suggestion... but Alex Goode. In our academy I believe and certainly has gone onto to be a very good player, I think underrated and much maligned for some reason, who has achieved an immense amount.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 10:58
Mendez could have stayed longer for me. Humphries looked like moving into coaching with us. Halliday left early in an unpopular move. Borthwick, sadly, looked like he made the right move for himself.

 
redmix
redmix (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 11:32
Going back a bit, but David Sole was a huge loss to the club. And he went on to great things with Scotland and the Lions.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 11:34
And "Starsky and Hutch".

 
Barfboy
Barfboy (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 11:46
The way the Club treated Ben Clarke was pretty poor

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 12:12
A bit early to say yet but definitely Devoto & Eastmond?
Maybe Stringer & Webber?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams

 
Olde Lagge
Olde Lagge (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 12:14
Brian Ashton!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 12:16
Quote:
jayeatman
A bit early to say yet but definitely Devoto & Eastmond?

Maybe Stringer & Webber?

I assume that those last two were a joke? Stringer was obviously great but 10 years later than ideal for us. Webber was so far out of form it was ridiculous and we have 4 amazing hookers at least 3 of which I would take over him. Plus he has pretty unsound judgement off the field, certainly a not a role model like some of the names mentioned above (i.e. Strings).

[www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk]

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 13:00
[www.bathchronicle.co.uk] A few candidates 'Ere

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 13:04
Borthwich, Bendy and Devoto seem to me are the big 3 who've gone on to bigger and better things; probably missing Ollie the most contextually, given our lack of centres since he left.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 13:14
I suspect it would have been a challenge to keep Bendy and Watson. Whilst keeping both would have been great, its difficult to say who I'd rather we kept.

Losing Borthwick was pretty bad on a number of levels.

For me OD is only a loss because we've not replaced him and I can't why we've been so happy to be so weak at centre for so long. So, if on some level its a been a strategy to be light at centre, then I don't think having him would have helped much. Put another way, I don't think swapping OD for Taps would improve us much.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 13:16
I remember one of Jason Robinson's early home games, can't remember the detail but at the end of the match several dozen supporters including myself climbed over the advertising signs onto the pitch to congratulate him on his brilliant tries that day. The only time I have ever done that! (It was different then).

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 13:27
Quote:
DanWiley
I suspect it would have been a challenge to keep Bendy and Watson. Whilst keeping both would have been great, its difficult to say who I'd rather we kept.
Losing Borthwick was pretty bad on a number of levels.

For me OD is only a loss because we've not replaced him and I can't why we've been so happy to be so weak at centre for so long. So, if on some level its a been a strategy to be light at centre, then I don't think having him would have helped much. Put another way, I don't think swapping OD for Taps would improve us much.
that's the thing, Borthwich was replaced by Hooper; Bendy was replaced by Watson (would have loved to have them kept them both, but would we now have Roko if we did?) I see Tap.s as Kyle's replacement, whilst Ollie's would be... erm... James Wilson?
Either way, those 3 all left us, and went on to win silverware for their new club, and all went on to arguably become better players than they had been at Bath (or at least, to play better as part of a better team).



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 13:36
Ollie D was closer to an England call-up with us than Exe. Injury or sharing the 12 position?

 
Kidney Stone
Kidney Stone (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 16:13
I don't buy Devoto, he has not pulled up trees with Exe.

Borths, Bendy and Woodburn for me.

BTW, what happened to Luke Watson after he left us?

 
Omba
Omba (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 16:25
I was going to add Luke Watson as well. Plus Lippy, not that he went on to bigger and better just that he was great to watch

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 17:52
Noooooooo
Luke W in the end only interested in himself and really was he that good? ZM is gonna be way better.
And Lipman, are you joking? Corrosive, the archetypal bad apple.
Get real.

SQUAWK

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 18:01
Whatever the outcome for Ollie Devoto at Exeter, i still think it's a/ a shame he left, and b/ a shame if he doesn't turn out to be, as a minimum, an automatic starter at AV level.

He came through our Academy and looked to be on the brink of International honours at a young age. If he were here now, having kicked on, he'd be just about the perfect addition to our current squad.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 18:19
Nick A left because Ford made it very clear to him that Watson was the future i.e. as part of his support team for his son.

However, what's that old saying = one door closes and another opens! Clermont has benefitted and he is one of their mega stars.

Apart from them there are others who weren't 'let go' but I will remember - James and Classens partnership at its best. Borthwick and Grewcock. Is it me, or do we seem not to have had such stable almost magical partnerships over the past 5 years or so?



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 19:00
Leroy Houston, great character and always had a smile on his face.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Omba
Omba (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 19:45
Quote:
sid the seagull
Noooooooo
Luke W in the end only interested in himself and really was he that good? ZM is gonna be way better.
And Lipman, are you joking? Corrosive, the archetypal bad apple.
Get real.

SQUAWK

Fair enough, but without forgetting Lippy's end, I will also recall the Challenge Cup final at CG where he played with what looked like half his face having been torn off, and his ability to always be on the shoulder of the ball carrier.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 20:49
Quote:
Optimist
Whatever the outcome for Ollie Devoto at Exeter, i still think it's a/ a shame he left, and b/ a shame if he doesn't turn out to be, as a minimum, an automatic starter at AV level.
He came through our Academy and looked to be on the brink of International honours at a young age. If he were here now, having kicked on, he'd be just about the perfect addition to our current squad.

+1

Defences is Devo's strongest quality which is why he was more easily overlooked than the flashier attackers. Unfortunately many here just remember him as a 10 (which he wasn't) who couldn't kick.

I think he's now in the same boat as Roko, a person who is at the top of his game, but doesn't quite do what Eddie wants.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 21:33
Butch James. He wanted to go home, but in doing so it meant we had to endure two seasons without any quality at stand off.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 21:56
Quote:
Which Tyler
Quote:
DanWiley
I suspect it would have been a challenge to keep Bendy and Watson. Whilst keeping both would have been great, its difficult to say who I'd rather we kept.
Losing Borthwick was pretty bad on a number of levels.

For me OD is only a loss because we've not replaced him and I can't why we've been so happy to be so weak at centre for so long. So, if on some level its a been a strategy to be light at centre, then I don't think having him would have helped much. Put another way, I don't think swapping OD for Taps would improve us much.
that's the thing, Borthwich was replaced by Hooper; Bendy was replaced by Watson (would have loved to have them kept them both, but would we now have Roko if we did?) I see Tap.s as Kyle's replacement, whilst Ollie's would be... erm... James Wilson?
Either way, those 3 all left us, and went on to win silverware for their new club, and all went on to arguably become better players than they had been at Bath (or at least, to play better as part of a better team).

No, Steve Borthwick was not replaced by Hoops. They played in the same position but that's where the similarity ends. Borths was the best on-field captain I've seen for us, period. We didn't miss him as a player as much as we missed him as the leader of the team. And we haven't had one in the intervening years and we still don't have one. I'd argue that that is the difference between us being a good team and being a great team. If you put Brad Barritt or Owen Farrell into the Bath team, we'd win the league at a canter. And I'd argue that is why Sarries win. Not because they have great players, although they do, but because they have great leaders.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2018 21:57 by joethefanatic.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 22:33
Joe, there are many players, some of them internationals from overseas, who hold Stuart Hooper in very, very high esteem as a leader. I'd argue he wasn't as talented a player as Borthers, who was a phenomenal club player.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 22:48
Quote:
@Hydor18
Joe, there are many players, some of them internationals from overseas, who hold Stuart Hooper in very, very high esteem as a leader. I'd argue he wasn't as talented a player as Borthers, who was a phenomenal club player.

I admire Hoops very much but when did anyone say "Bath are Stuart Hooper's team" and everyone knew what they meant? Great teams have dominant leaders who force their teams to bend to their vision of how the game will be played. These leaders are very few and far between but have a disproportionate influence when they do appear.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 23:08
I donít think that we would win the league at a canter if we signed Brad Barrett. Beauden Barrett might help mind, especially if he brought his brothers.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
09 January, 2018 23:34
Quote:
BathMatt53
I donít think that we would win the league at a canter if we signed Brad Barrett. Beauden Barrett might help mind, especially if he brought his brothers.

I do. Leaders force consistency of performance. And if there is one thing we've lacked over the last 10 years, it's been consistency.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 07:32
So stick Barack Obama at 12 and Richard Branson at 8 then? Sarries advantage is that they have leaders all over the field, Brits, Itoje, Goode etc. Brad Barrett would just take Taps (one of our most effective attacking players at the moment) off the field. Besides which isnít making the players play for themselves and their team without being directed as important, say like Exeter? They donít have a load of shouty leader type figures.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 07:53
Quote:
BathMatt53
So stick Barack Obama at 12 and Richard Branson at 8 then? Sarries advantage is that they have leaders all over the field, Brits, Itoje, Goode etc. Brad Barrett would just take Taps (one of our most effective attacking players at the moment) off the field. Besides which isnít making the players play for themselves and their team without being directed as important, say like Exeter? They donít have a load of shouty leader type figures.

I'd argue that their dominant leader is Rob Baxter, in the same way that Cockers was for the Tigs. They are the figures who embody the ethos of the club. I think having this figure as a coach rather than a player gives different strengths but the singleness of vision and direction is the same.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 08:18
People talk about hoops as a great leader, but did we really look like a team that was well lead?

I don't think we looked particularly together or focused as a team. We seemed to make a lot of questionable decisions: strategic, tactical and in the heart of battle. It's not like we had a "never say die" attitude. Having heard him speak, he's nice enough, but no Churchill. By all accounts he gets on well with people, players I guess bring the crucial people, but beyond that I don't see it.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 09:11
Quote:
joethefanatic
They are the figures who embody the ethos of the club. I think having this figure as a coach rather than a player gives different strengths but the singleness of vision and direction is the same.

OK, so not the actual Brad Barritt for Bath then, just a club man who speaks up a bit more on (or off) the pitch and pulls the team together. My understanding is that they saw Ewells as developing into this type of guy?

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 11:27
Surely Jason Robinson in terms of a talent let go of way too soon.

Borthwick and Abendanon both went on to achieve good things elsewhere and was a real shame as had both been club talismen up until their departure.

That said not sure Borthwick actually ever won that much at Sarries did he? A number of runners up medals but he retired the season before the gold rush began!

I think Bendy wanted out as well to be fair due to the offer from Clermont didn't he? He had been sharing the jersey a bit with Watson but I remember he, Banners and Roko were rotated a lot on the wings too as Roko had become so prominent for us by then. That try against Exe I believe ended up being a contender for try of the season did it not? He shot onto it at such pace and the chase to regather the chip was superb.



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 11:39
I actually agree on Burgess. I do think if he stayed he could have become a world class 6.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 13:21
"We didn't miss him (Borthwick) as a player as much as we missed him as the leader of the team."

A leader of the team that presided over the loss of a very winnable cup final at the Stoop (iirc) and then had a tantrum about the club and walked out to Saracens.

He's obviously a good coach - but I wonder what he'll be like if he steps up to head coach/DoR? He might be one of those guys who is a fantastic back-room boy, but not necessarily the head honcho.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 13:25
Banners

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 13:29
Quote:
Big Dog
Surely Jason Robinson in terms of a talent let go of way too soon.
Borthwick and Abendanon both went on to achieve good things elsewhere and was a real shame as had both been club talismen up until their departure.

That said not sure Borthwick actually ever won that much at Sarries did he? A number of runners up medals but he retired the season before the gold rush began!

I think Bendy wanted out as well to be fair due to the offer from Clermont didn't he? He had been sharing the jersey a bit with Watson but I remember he, Banners and Roko were rotated a lot on the wings too as Roko had become so prominent for us by then. That try against Exe I believe ended up being a contender for try of the season did it not? He shot onto it at such pace and the chase to regather the chip was superb.

Well sort of, Bendy didnt feel very valued/or wanted by the new management and Clermont made him a much better offer.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 13:31
Quote:
Optimist
"We didn't miss him (Borthwick) as a player as much as we missed him as the leader of the team."
A leader of the team that presided over the loss of a very winnable cup final at the Stoop (iirc) and then had a tantrum about the club and walked out to Saracens.

Having personally trucked the ball up, missing a massive overlap in the last minute.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 18:12
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
joethefanatic
They are the figures who embody the ethos of the club. I think having this figure as a coach rather than a player gives different strengths but the singleness of vision and direction is the same.

OK, so not the actual Brad Barritt for Bath then, just a club man who speaks up a bit more on (or off) the pitch and pulls the team together. My understanding is that they saw Ewells as developing into this type of guy?

This is where it gets more interesting (and more circular). I think the actual Brad Barritt *would* make the difference for us because the embodiment of the ethos is at least partially defined by the leadership of that leader (and so changes, to a degree, over time). The Tigs are a great current example. They had a clear single identity embodied (for good or ill) in Cockers. Without him, they are searching for a new vision of who they are and are playing poorly because of it. Ironically, everyone else still thinks that they are the same club - but they don't. The Dark Site is a very interesting read at the moment.

The closest we've had is Banners, I think, but he's too nice and too removed from the play on the wing. If he'd stayed in the second row and glowered at people more...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2018 18:16 by joethefanatic.

 
dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 19:32
The 'talisman' debate is interesting. Does the talisman make the team? Or does the team make the talisman?

England won the '03 World Cup because Johnson refused to be beaten. Dallaglio did the same for Wasps throughout the early 2000s. Four or five players, but largely Robinson and Hall, led Bath to victories they otherwise might not have had in the early 90s.

Without wanting to be too controversial, if Banahan is our talisman then we haven't won much or been very good consistently during his time here. So is that a negative reflection on his talents as a leader? Or is he excused as he was never really considered a leader at all, especially given his position on the field?

History dictates that the great leaders and talisman are forwards. Borthwick was one, and he left and achieved great things with Sarries. Since him, we've had no real stand out leader of men in the pack. Will Ewels grow into that role? Will we look at Garvey in three seasons time and see him as a club legend who led us to great things?

Hard to know. Only time will tell. And hence an interesting debate!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 19:40
Louw would stand out for me as the one who leads by example and changes games, dragging along others at the same time. He may not chat as much as Banners but he certainly shows the other players how its done.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 19:53
Quote:
dr.bath1865
The 'talisman' debate is interesting. Does the talisman make the team? Or does the team make the talisman?
England won the '03 World Cup because Johnson refused to be beaten. Dallaglio did the same for Wasps throughout the early 2000s. Four or five players, but largely Robinson and Hall, led Bath to victories they otherwise might not have had in the early 90s.

Without wanting to be too controversial, if Banahan is our talisman then we haven't won much or been very good consistently during his time here. So is that a negative reflection on his talents as a leader? Or is he excused as he was never really considered a leader at all, especially given his position on the field?

History dictates that the great leaders and talisman are forwards. Borthwick was one, and he left and achieved great things with Sarries. Since him, we've had no real stand out leader of men in the pack. Will Ewels grow into that role? Will we look at Garvey in three seasons time and see him as a club legend who led us to great things?

Hard to know. Only time will tell. And hence an interesting debate!

I'm (clearly) in the Talisman makes the team camp and I strongly agree that the talisman is almost by definition going to be a forward. In the end (or at least to begin with), rugby is a game of physical intimidation and the talisman generally leads that effort. think Matt Garvey is a very good call. I think he has all the attributes necessary except one. He is not nasty enough. And I don't think that can be manufactured which is why we "know it when we see it". I don't think anyone is going to argue with the proposition that Maro Itoje is going to captain England for a long, long time. He is nasty. Oh, he's polite and intelligent and well educated and speaks well and all that. He also cheats like hell and riles the opposition as much as he can and he does it naturally. In rugby terms, he has "it".



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2018 19:57 by joethefanatic.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 20:59
"Banahan is our talisman then we haven't won much or been very good consistently during his time here."

Ok, next time we recruit a tallisman, put their photos in two piles, then throw half of them away. The last thing we want is an unlucky tallisman.

I think backs can be tallismen. Certainly 9s and I'd say 10s. I think a solid 15 can give a team so much confidence that you'd have to consider him one. I would say the likes of BoD as well.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
10 January, 2018 21:07
Roko is a talisman.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
11 January, 2018 09:24
I would argue with that proposition. I think Farrell will be the next England captain and this will prevent Itoje from captaining the side for a long time.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
11 January, 2018 10:15
Itoje/Farrell has some very promising overtones of Johnson/Wilkinson. But when you think of the '03 team it's harder to name those that weren't, by some definition, 'talismen' than those that were. Some of that is the afterglow of being World Cup winners, but certainly Dallaglio, Vickery, Back, Hill, Tindall, Greenwood, Robinson would be candidates for talisman status by just about anyone's definition.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
11 January, 2018 11:10
Eh?

noun
noun: talisman; plural noun: talismans
an object, typically an inscribed ring or stone, that is thought to have magic powers and to bring good luck.
"those rings, so fresh and gleaming, were their talismans"
synonyms: lucky charm, charm, fetish, amulet, mascot, totem, idol, juju, phylactery; archaicperiapt


i think i will stay out of this one..

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
11 January, 2018 11:12
For me a "talismen" is a player that lifts the team just by being there, without actually doing anything.

For example,I almost disagreed with someone when they said Roko. He's a great player, who lifts the team, but only because he has been scoring out of nothing. If he was on the teamsheet, but never touched the ball, we would somehow play better and that's what I think a talismen does.

Players like JW, BoD and (hate to say) Dayglo, just seemed to lift the team without actually doing anything. So, from the 2003, I'd say none of the front row were. Johnson, maybe, but only if you say leadership isn't doing anything. I wouldn't say back or Hill were. Not Dawson. Or Tindall. Greenwood is a tricky one, just because it was hard to see what and how he did it, didn't mean he wasn't. JR, in a game where he didn't do anything magic, didn't lift the team by himself.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
11 January, 2018 11:39
Paul O'Connell

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
11 January, 2018 17:29
Quote:
cb2
I would argue with that proposition. I think Farrell will be the next England captain and this will prevent Itoje from captaining the side for a long time.

And I'd agree with you smiling smiley (my rhetorical argument carried me away a little!). But everything I wrote about Itoje also applies to Farrell. With those two, England are in a good position to become a great side.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 08:10
We had the talisman debate a while ago on another thread. My view is that every club needs a player who is regarded as the 'rock' or 'heartbeat' of the club. That person, usually senior in playing age and leadership, who has the club colours running through his/her veins, plays every game with heart, body and soul on the line, younger/newer players look up too and the person who in dark times brings spirit and resolve

In footie John Terry is a good one though personal behaviour off field is generally required to be consistent with the spiritual role within the club!

There is little doubt that Banners has been in that role for us so who is there to take over? Attwood, Louw? JJ?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 08:55
Martin Johnson's stoicism and resilience was talismanic, his character was imprinted on that side far more than anyone elses. In fairness to Farrell, the same seems to be true of this England side.
I think Bath would be better served if they had someone with the same ability - I don't think we have one. I think the difficulty with which we can predict the captain or name leader's highlights that.

Banahan is an experienced player who was happy to take responsibility in tough situations. He kept playing to the end, even when he was not playing well. But I don't think the fact he had been at the club so long, or cared about the club so much (is this a function of time) made the team perform any better.

It's just a shame that it is hard to reward loyalty in this environment.

 
dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 09:18
So maybe Banahan was/is the 'heartbeat' of the Bath team for the last decade. But, again, we won very little and didn't do very well, one or two seasons aside, so can he really be considered a 'talisman'?

I guess what I'm asking is, can bad or mediocre teams contain a talisman? Or, by definition, does a talisman have to be successful and part of a successful team?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 09:23
Quote:
Substitute
Martin Johnson's stoicism and resilience was talismanic, his character was imprinted on that side far more than anyone elses. In fairness to Farrell, the same seems to be true of this England side.
I think Bath would be better served if they had someone with the same ability - I don't think we have one. I think the difficulty with which we can predict the captain or name leader's highlights that.

..


Garvie is getting there.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 09:37
The only thing I can take from this discussion is that The Glaws contract team take talismanic qualities into the equation whereas that @#$%& Tarquin doesn't....

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 09:48
Iím glad you alerted me to that WP - you are now officially EREís lexiconographic talisperson laureate.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 11:27
Quote:
dr.bath1865

I guess what I'm asking is, can bad or mediocre teams contain a talisman? Or, by definition, does a talisman have to be successful and part of a successful team?

The whole raison d'etre of the talisman is that he/she instills energy, belief and resolve in others in the fight for the team to succeed

What success looks and feels like will be totally dependent on the team's circumstances. At LI, for example it could be Topsey Ojo [not that I have any insight into their team dynamics] or David Paice. Success for them will be each point won in the fight to avoid relegation

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 11:59
In the days when I played team sport (very amateur) you turned up at the ground, walked out together onto the pitch and looked around at each other. You looked at whether you had a good set of key players turning out on the day and could feel at that moment whether you could win or not.

I don't imagine pro sport being very different, there are some names on the Bath team sheet that you just know perform consistently well and engender confidence.

If the team miss Banners then they should look at getting that sports psychologist from last season back in. You have to take to the pitch believing you can win.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 12:38
Ok gaz, but I'd say for the last few(many) years we've looked less than the sum of our parts.

"If the team miss Banners then they should look at getting that sports psychologist from last season back in."

I think we should do that regardless. Seriously, what would it cost? £100k a year? Not in the cap. Bargain if it just yields a couple of percent improvement.

 
Tricky=Legend
Tricky=Legend (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 13:53
To get slightly back on track, Jason Robinson didn't leave us. He and Henry Paul had a 'sabbatical' almost and only came to us for (I think) 6 months, whilst they were still contracted to their league teams in 1996. He didn't join Sale (and therefore start playing Union) until 2000. The biggest travesty was that we didn't get him back when he made the permanent move.

I'd agree that of anyone, we missed Butch the most because we struggled to replace him. Borthwick was a really big long term loss.

I don't remember us treating Ben Clarke badly incidentally, I thought he was paid a ton of money to move to Richmond?

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
12 January, 2018 14:02
I was also at that mid-week game against Swansea where Paul and Robinson featured

The Swans had a decent side out but it was a cricket score I recall

The one problem it gave us though was the game-plan afterwards then became simply 'give it to Jason anywhere on the pitch' and unfortunately Cardiff in the HC cottoned onto this, always sending two or three speedy fliers to hunt him down deep in our half

 
Bath Born & Bred
Bath Born and Bred (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 00:07
For a start.........Julian Salvi for sure, great player, great energy, great heart and always smiling - went on for great days at Leicester and now still in the Exeter squad - met him a Bath Christmas panto, he had all the time for the fans. Which brings to mind another I met there, Peter Short who also went to Exeter.

Also would add Olly Woodburn, Carl Fearns, Nick Abendanon, Dominic Day, Darryl Marfo, Dave Sisi, Horacio Agulla, ........

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 08:57
Matt Banahan more than any of those. He is playing better than ever, is a great leader & example to others & would have been a very useful utility forward for the next 3 years.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 09:40
Of all those, inc banners, Bendy is the only one I really regret and even there I can see the reasons why it happened.

"He is playing better than ever, "

Not really, I don't think he's near an England shirt, which is what he had before someone convinced him he should try being a centre. A year or more ago he was on fire, having been through a poor patch, now I'd say he's one of the better players in an under-performing team.

"is a great leader & example to others"

Great example, yes. He gets into everything, he shouts a lot. But I think there's more to leadership than that.

"would have been a very useful utility forward for the next 3 years."

I think that's a pipe dream. How many backs, however big, have converted to being a forward in their 30s? Realistically we'd have a big slow winger in a years time.

The others have gone on to various degrees of success, but (possibly Fernes aside), none have really gone If we had Woodburn would we have Roko? Certainly not AND Banners.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 10:22
The point about moving from one club to another is that the move itself is often the catalyst for the upturn in a player's form, fitness or fortunes. Sometimes it's the rejection itself - the desire to prove the old club wrong and the new club right - that brings about the upturn. I'm sure Matt will be on fire with motivation when he arrives at Glos which will make it look as though Bath were idiots to let him go. Whether that motivation would have been as strong had Matt been given a cozy, that-will-see-me-through-to-retirement contract at Bath can never be known.

At age 31/32, when that calf muscle keeps niggling, how motivated are you to go through the boring rehab, the fitness work, the diet, with the same old advice from the same old physios?

I can't believe that Mike Catt, for example, would have played until he was nearly 40 if he'd stayed at Bath? So who did who a favour?

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 10:23
Very well put Dan and very similar to my thinking. Banners has been an excellent servant to the club but because of anno domini is past his best years, although at present he can do a job for the team. Its always difficult to know when to bow out of top class sport, and I would always want to remember him in his pomp, frightening defences with his wreckjng ball type running.

Most definitely in recent years the biggest loss was Bendy, and possibly Olly Woodburn, who have really gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 20:56
Quote:
DanWiley
.... If we had Woodburn would we have Roko? Certainly not AND Banners.

I believe Roko came with Gary Gold so we probably would have had him.

Woodburn was side-lined when we signed Agulla

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 22:20
And we'd have kept all three happy with at least one second choice? Isn't that why woodburn left anyway?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 22:31
Woodburn left because he wasn't getting games.
Agulla was first choice. Banners was on the other wing(?). I can't recall how or when Roko fitted in.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 22:34
"Woodburn left because he wasn't getting games. "

Right, so having two better wingers around was going to change that because...

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
18 January, 2018 22:50
Exactly.

Ignoring Roko who was an unknown quantity when he arrived. The argument is whether it was wiser to bring in a ready made quality player (Agulla) or develop a very promising youngster (Woodburn). Fords decision (?)

I would like to have seen Woodburn stay and develop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/01/2018 22:52 by Boldangrey.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
19 January, 2018 07:43
I wasn't too bothered at the time by woodburn leaving and I'm not now because we did get better options. So I can't say I've got or had much regret. In terms of the validity of the general decision, history doesn't seem to indicate that it was that bad. Roko and Agulla or woodburn? Probably the former for me. Woodburn plays his part in a team that currently is top of their game in getting more than the sum of its parts. I'm not convinced that he'd look that special at another team.

 
A different view
A different view (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
29 January, 2018 23:34
One for the old stagers - Dave Hilton.

Our front row struggled for a few years as a consequence.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Who do we regret leaving most
30 January, 2018 10:49
Tom Voyce has some pretty good stats at club level.


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