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opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 10:10
Eddie Jones signs up to 2021 - wasn't this where it all went wrong for the RFU an Stuart Lancaster?

I'd have waited until after this 6Ns. If he can pull this one out of the bag then sign him up until 2050. I do wonder, though, whether his attritional training methods, insistence on players going full on at Club level, and his tactical alienation of certain players, is taking a bit of a toll.

Also slightly irritated by reports that RFU planning to pick two Scottish players - one of whom i've literarlly never heard of - Gloucester scrum-half Ben Vellacott (as well as Gary Graham) - in a blatant strategy to tie them in to England and out of Scotland (and much as we have done with Roko). What is it with England - we have more players, more resources than any other Union, yet feel the need to deprive smaller nations of players?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2018 10:12 by Optimist.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 10:23
Velacott was born in England. Okay, so he's represented Scotland at junior level, but conversely Danielli, Hamilton, Heathcote and I am sure a good few others have represented England at lower levels before playing for Scotland.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 10:37
Hmmm - Danielli and Heathcote? That's your evidence!!

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 10:48
Don't Scotland have the most foreign born players in their squad of the home nation? Genuine question as I may have misremembered something.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 10:51
Possibly BB. But it's hardly surprising that a Union with just 2 fully professional clubs would have to cast around a bit. What's the RFU's excuse?

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 11:01
Personally don't see Vellacott or Graham being good enough to represent England either which is why it is so farcical!

Someone like Matt Kvesic who a few years ago was easily the best 7 we had was overlooked and the same with Dan Robson now - yet we are looking at these two??! What is going on?

Let Scotland have them and let's not devalue any shirts either way!



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 11:04
Vellacott has bags of potential. Not sure who Gary Graham is.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 11:15
Isn't Gary Graham the son of the old Newcastle prop who also played for Scotland IIRR, George Graham?

Mag be wrong but believe there is a family connection there.

From what I have seen, Vellacott looks very useful indeed and certainly understand from a Glos source that they have a problem with either starting him or their club captain, Willi Heinz.

Personally I cannot understand how EJ continues to ignore Robson who I think is a bit special.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 11:46
Vellacott looks real class. Very quick, zippy pass with sniping threat around breakdown and some serious pace

Didn't realise he was Scottish but don't think this is just a cynical attempt to deprive a smaller nation as the guy could easily be in the mix for a starting shirt in a year or two

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 11:47
Good move.
We know the RFU have always wanted this experiment of an overseas coach to be a one-off, so we know that they want to appoint an Englishman next time, which rules out that "experienced international coach" option, and any newcomer to the job should be delighted to work under Eddie - presumably a DoR - HC relationship.
It's also good news if that puts him in contention (confirm him now) as Lions coach in 2021

As for Eddie's comments on not looking tmextend beyond 2019 - that's always struck me as being under orders.

As for his successor, I'd like England to look at Deano as my first choice, I'd like the likes of Baxter to get experience at more then one club first, preferably outside of England too. If looking for non-English Brit.s, then McCall and Young are the obvious pair, but again, I'd like to see them show that they can do it outside of their comfort zones as well.
I hate to say it, but even Farrell might be a decent option, just... not yet.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 12:09
FWIW Ben Vellacot, 22 years old, born in Surrey, schooled in Ivybridge and Hartbury, appears never to have live in Scotland (or anywhere North of Gloucestershire), though he did play age-grade rugby for them (as did our Zach - though he at least spent a decade living there). Second choice SH at Good behind their club captain, already a better player IMO, though lacking a little in game-management, which should come with (game) time. Is plenty good enough to have a future in international rugby, especially given the lack of option England have at SH currently (if he does actually choose us)
Not a poach by any definition.

Gary Graham, 25 years old, is much more of a coach, only qualifying for England via residence and parentage, appears to have spent the first 22 years of his life in Scotland and is a produce of the Scottish rugby system.Just about a poach, but still with English parentage, so not really. Is also unlikely to be capped by England or anyone else.
I believe he's a specialist flanker, and would be behind Robshaw, Haskell, Wilson, Ewers, Armand, Curry, Curry, Underhill, Simmonds, Clifford and possibly Chisholm for England. Most likely brought into the England training camp due to a combination of injuries, not having worked with Eddie (as opposed to everyone else on that list) and a couple of fingers up to Scotland after their announcement that they want to station scouts in England specifically to poach our age-grade talent.

Dan Robson is good, but no more consistent than Youngs or Care. More to the point, he seems to have fallen into that "forgotten generation" of players that Eddie seems to be needing more from in order to cap. I would still have had him as 3rd choice for the last couple of years (actually, I'd have had him as second),. If he's really not a step up on the incumbents except for age (and a huge step down in terms of experience). FWIW, I Graham also falls into this forgotten generation who only seem likely to be capped in the event of an injury crisis AND a lack of younger options.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2018 12:19 by Which Tyler.

 
dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 12:16
Vellacott was a member of the Exeter Chiefs academy, I see. BIG mistake by them to let him go. Mr Baxter has made a serious misstep there. They should be nurturing young talent, not allowing them to leave. A sign of a club on the slide, I'd say.

(yawn)

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 16:40
Do these new contracts before a tournament ever work for the union? Don't make the semi and he will be out.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 18:04
I think it might have been done to ensure that Wales didn't see EJ as an option, Gatland's contracs expired at the same time. I'm not sure the RFU would have liked him to be their saviour one week then bitter rival the next!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2018 18:11 by shipwrecked.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 21:55
From Guardian report it seems there’s a break clause in Eddie’s contract: ‘and a break clause inserted should his squad unexpectedly nosedive between now and then’.

Have the RFU had an outbreak of common sense?

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
17 January, 2018 22:16
Mentioned also on the BBC radio news this evening. No one has said what the minimum level is that England need to reach at the next RWC for the contract extension to happen. The journalist thought reaching the semis would be the minimum.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 02:48
Quote:
B4thB4ck
Mentioned also on the BBC radio news this evening. No one has said what the minimum level is that England need to reach at the next RWC for the contract extension to happen. The journalist thought reaching the semis would be the minimum.

Then they'd be falling into the same kneejerk trap as the last time. Preparing the next England head coach is a long term project, separate to and different from coaching the senior team, which should not be sped up by sacking Jones early. Look at how New Zealand do this. Continuity is key which means the next England head coach should already be in the system and gaining experience. I strongly suspect it will be Borthers. It will then be part of his job to train his replacement(s) - who ideally should be one of the age group coaches so there is continuity of the coaching personnel for the players to feel comfortable with. The fact that some of the junior coaches are going to be packed off around the world to gain different experiences is a very good sign. None of this is rocket science but it requires maturity and strategic thinking from the RFU.

Ah...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 08:11
Its about maintaining progress on the pitch whilst keeping him on for an extra 2 years to provide that overlap to the next head coach. They are just trying to avoid him taking his eye off the prize when he would be winding down to the end of the contract.

Whatever good stuff he has done to date would be undone if England flopped at the RWC as the handover would be at a low point.

Sounds to as though the RFU have got a good balance to this.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 09:22
With the break clause included, it is a good idea. The 6N will not be easy this year with all sides, apart from Italy, in contention for the title. I like the look of Scotland, as long as they all stay fit.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 09:51
"The journalist thought reaching the semis would be the minimum."

I would say semis are expectations, not a bottom line. I think it depends on the context. Part of the reason Lancaster had to go was the fact he crashed out in a home WC. Whilst Wales and Oz is a difficult group, England should beat both Wales AND Oz at home and certainly would expect to beat one of them. I don't think Lancaster could claim it was a good campaign and we were unlucky.

Given England's group I would certainly think Eddie would be off if they don't get out of it. A lost to France/Argentina and Oz? I think that's what not making the semi means. I'd say dicey, but it depends on what happens between now and then, perhaps the manner of those defeats and I could see him surviving.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 09:52
I'm not that 'bothered' but it seems to me a bit early to be giving Jones so long a future with England. Wondered if, as I suspect he is a canny operator', another job might be coming up over the horizon and RFU wanted to tie him down. As commented above, why didn't they wait until a glorious 6N was in the bag?



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 10:11
The eternal truth in these head coach/manager situations is that - as long as they are in charge, every capped or aspiring-to-be-capped player queues up to say they are the best coach they've ever worked with; the minute they get fired it transpires that they were terrible man-managers, their methods didn't work, they never called after dropping xyz player, etc.

Eddie has stated plain and simple that he is creating a bullet-proof team to win the World Cup. Anything less than that means he has failed, and everyone will be analyzing where it went wrong.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 10:15
Quote:
Optimist
The eternal truth in these head coach/manager situations is that - as long as they are in charge, every capped or aspiring-to-be-capped player queues up to say they are the best coach they've ever worked with; the minute they get fired it transpires that they were terrible man-managers, their methods didn't work, they never called after dropping xyz player, etc.
Eddie has stated plain and simple that he is creating a bullet-proof team to win the World Cup. Anything less than that means he has failed, and everyone will be analyzing where it went wrong.

For me the only get out is a reasonably close loss to NZ in the final

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 11:47
SCW said he wanted to create a side which thought for themselves and when they won the WC, some players complained he didn't do the coaching but left it up to the players!

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 21:04
Any coach that aims to come second is not worth the name.

The expectation of the RFU/fans is very different. Eddie is building a team and few coaches would expect a team achieve the World Championship in just 4 years.

Unless something goes drastically wrong, Eddie should be given the time to eventually achieve this.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 21:21
Quote:
Boldangrey
Any coach that aims to come second is not worth the name.
The expectation of the RFU/fans is very different. Eddie is building a team and few coaches would expect a team achieve the World Championship in just 4 years.

Unless something goes drastically wrong, Eddie should be given the time to eventually achieve this.

Unlike at Bath Rugby where if the coach hasn't achieved success within 2 years there are calls for a new one!

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 21:26
Agreed. i really hope we stick with Todd.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 21:42
Quote:
Boldangrey
few coaches would expect a team achieve the World Championship in just 4 years

Is this a joke? Anyone would think Eddie inherited Bungles 3rd XV. Even under Martin Johnson, who had never coached before, England weren’t useless. Under-achieving, yes, but not useless. If I picked the team for the next two years they’d win some games. Look what the Lions did in the summer. Mostly the England coach just has to perform the amazing trick of putting round pegs in round holes. Four years is masses of time. He may not win it on 2019, but it won’t be because he needed another year or so to get the team organised.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
18 January, 2018 22:32
That makes Lancaster's WC all the worse. Clearly it isn't -that- easy and I think Eddie's two for two with a slam is at least notable.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
19 January, 2018 06:13
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Boldangrey
Any coach that aims to come second is not worth the name.
The expectation of the RFU/fans is very different. Eddie is building a team and few coaches would expect a team achieve the World Championship in just 4 years.

Unless something goes drastically wrong, Eddie should be given the time to eventually achieve this.

Unlike at Bath Rugby where if the coach hasn't achieved success within 2 years there are calls for a new one!

When there's been zero sign of development and the players often look lost, yes, there is.
He

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
19 January, 2018 08:08
In this case though we don't have a head coach, he left unexpectedly at the beginning of the season and we await a replacement.

As much as I like Eddie and agree with his continuing, he doesn't have the restrictions of all club coaches of the cap limitations, its a different job.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
19 January, 2018 11:03
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
Boldangrey
few coaches would expect a team achieve the World Championship in just 4 years

Is this a joke? Anyone would think Eddie inherited Bungles 3rd XV. Even under Martin Johnson, who had never coached before, England weren’t useless. Under-achieving, yes, but not useless. If I picked the team for the next two years they’d win some games. Look what the Lions did in the summer. Mostly the England coach just has to perform the amazing trick of putting round pegs in round holes. Four years is masses of time. He may not win it on 2019, but it won’t be because he needed another year or so to get the team organised.

England should get out of their group with a dog as the coach

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
19 January, 2018 11:17
That's a great idea. Set up a bunch of lamp posts in front of him numbered 1-15, when he takes a leak on one of them, off that players comes.

It would have to be a big dog, so it could put the fear of god in to them in the changing rooms.

The all we'd need to do is teach it to bark "transition" for the post match interview.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones signs up to 2021
20 January, 2018 13:48
I'm sure Big Dog wouldn't mind doing it he seems pretty knowledgable, but does he have to pee on the player...? I'm sure EJ is broadminded but being done for exposure sort of wrecks your career prospects.


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