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MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
10 February, 2018 22:41
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
DanWiley
The definition of grounding the ball
The ball can be grounded in in-goal:

1) By holding it and touching the ground with it; or

2) By pressing down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the playerís body from waist to neck.

I can't say he's holding the ball and, implicit in part 2, contact is not considered holding it. Is he pressing down? There's at least doubt.

On that basis he is not pressing down on it with a hand, fingers at best, so good spot.

I think the fingers can be regarded as a constituent part of the hand for these purposes. But the new law wording does now require a judgement call on what constitutes :pressimg". The previous "contact" was a lot less subjective.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
10 February, 2018 22:55
I'd agree fingers are part of your hand, but pressing down is pretty clear. I don't agree previous definitions were clearer, this still wouldn't have been a try, yet clearly there was contact.

Edit: this wording goes back at least 6 years I think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2018 22:58 by DanWiley.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
10 February, 2018 23:02
Quote:
shipwrecked
That is a good photo Dan so what actually is the law then?
https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article14273373.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/CDF_100218_CF_England_v_Wales_030JPG.jpg

It does look in that still as though the ball is sitting very low into the turf without any pressure from Ant...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
10 February, 2018 23:09
I think it's just sitting in the grass, it would take a lot of pressure to deform the ball by a significant amount.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
10 February, 2018 23:22
Quote:
DanWiley
I'd agree fingers are part of your hand, but pressing down is pretty clear. I don't agree previous definitions were clearer, this still wouldn't have been a try, yet clearly there was contact.
Edit: this wording goes back at least 6 years I think.

FWIW I thought it was an absolute nailed on try.I'd have been pretty disappointed if it had been an England try disallowed.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 00:38
Quote:
BathOvalBaller
England were very lucky to win that game. Even though they say it is a sign of a good side to win when playing badly, we squeezed a win by 2 bits if Farrell inspired play, and never really threatened the Welsh by back play and managed to break down their defence. England looked knackered and if they had to play another 5 minutes they would have lost as the Welch are fitter than us. Also their handling and passing through out their team was/is infinitely better than the English can muster.
EJ is delusional if he thinks we can win the World Cup with performances like that. The AB's would hammer us.

Farrell IMO was the outstanding player and apart from his passing and vision setting up the tries, his tackljng and covering was absolutely first class.

May's defence is dreadful and apart from Launchbury and occasionally Lawes and Underhill, we were outplayed up front. I wish Shindler had an English parent as he is an absolute star performer.

What do people think about Vunipola's scrummaging and also Cole's whose replacement Williams looked much more comfortable and contributed much more as well?

Well the circus goes on with probable 2/3 week or longer injuries to Watson and Simmonds.

Is the answer that Mario needs to spend more time punching people and that May needs to treat himself to a new pair of loafers ?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 00:44
Annoyed Eddie

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 08:28
Not enough done by Eng in the first half with the wind behind them.

First time that Eddie's 'finishers' have failed to deliver (with the exception of Underhill).

 
Sir Redneck
Sir Redneck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 08:51
[quote Bathovalballer]England were very lucky to win that game. Even though they say it is a sign of a good side to win when playing badly, we squeezed a win by 2 bits if Farrell inspired play, and never really threatened the Welsh by back play and managed to break down their defence. England looked knackered and if they had to play another 5 minutes they would have lost as the Welch are fitter than us. Also their handling and passing through out their team was/is infinitely better than the English can muster.

EJ is delusional if he thinks we can win the World Cup with performances like that. The AB's would hammer us.

Farrell IMO was the outstanding player and apart from his passing and vision setting up the tries, his tackljng and covering was absolutely first class.

May's defence is dreadful and apart from Launchbury and occasionally Lawes and Underhill, we were outplayed up front. I wish Shindler had an English parent as he is an absolute star performer.

He was born in Aldershot, will that do?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2018 08:52 by Sir Redneck.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 09:16
Funny how most of the game was played in Welsh territory when according to BoB they dominated........

Wales created 2 chances - Underhill prevented one score and the TMO the other. Did they ever threaten Englnd's line other than that?

They were allowed to constantly lie on the wrong side and not roll away in rucks, but still failed.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 09:27
ĎEngland looked knackered and if they had to play another 5 minutes they would have lost as the Welsh are fitterí

I doubt the Welsh are Ďfitterí in the sense that their aerobic capacity is greater, or they can bench-press more or whatever. They are probably in a more Ďfit-stateí than some of Englandís players who are just being flogged to the point of exhaustion. If Eddie really wants to win the World Cup he would send most of his squad to the beach for the summer and tell them not to look at a Rugby ball.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 09:59
Those of you with FB video of Underhill's try saving tackle from England Rugby

[www.facebook.com]



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 10:23
CC: it's a brilliant tackle, so clever.

BoB: it's Shingler not Shindler

Opti: The more I see of England's performances the more I agree with the fatigue issuse. To see players like Itoje, Cole and Hartley lacking punch and snap has to be tiredness. What is the solution though?

PS I forgot Lawes, Kruis to come back?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2018 10:25 by shipwrecked.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 11:24
Quote:
shipwrecked
CC: it's a brilliant tackle, so clever.
BoB: it's Shingler not Shindler

Opti: The more I see of England's performances the more I agree with the fatigue issuse. To see players like Itoje, Cole and Hartley lacking punch and snap has to be tiredness. What is the solution though?

PS I forgot Lawes, Kruis to come back?


And Jamie George had a quiet game by his standards.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 11:31
In hindsight I think Eddie left the sub's until too late in the match, players were struggling but because the match was in the balance he decided to stick rather than twist.

If we had been say, 7 points down, the decision would have been easier and the 'finishers' would have had a better chance to get into the game and as a team looked better.

We got the result though so he was proven right, it just addresses the criticisms about how well England looked.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 11:31
Wales showed they now belong at the top table. We clearly miss the X Factor which Billy gives us. There was a lot of carrying but no real power.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 11:44
Lets just hope that Hughes is back in time for Scotland

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 11:44
On the disallowed try, the TMO avoided the trap of looking at ten angles eight times each and being no clearer at the end of the process and quickly said 'no clear and obvious grounding', in my view rightly - touching the side of the ball is not pressing down on it.

On another note, while BoB is looking the other way, up the M4, how about...we...all...leave...quietly?

 
sirtidychris
sirtidychris (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 12:14
Totally agree, lions, then flogged by the club's, then flogged by Eddie in training, then shorter turnaround after the Italy game. We were dead on our feet

Quote:
Optimist
ĎEngland looked knackered and if they had to play another 5 minutes they would have lost as the Welsh are fitterí
I doubt the Welsh are Ďfitterí in the sense that their aerobic capacity is greater, or they can bench-press more or whatever. They are probably in a more Ďfit-stateí than some of Englandís players who are just being flogged to the point of exhaustion. If Eddie really wants to win the World Cup he would send most of his squad to the beach for the summer and tell them not to look at a Rugby ball.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 12:37
Well as long as they donít go near judo again that will be a start. Looks like Sam Jones have have to retire after that 2016 session when Itoje beasted everyone.

[www.givemesport.com]

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 13:20
Out of interest:
[twitter.com]
Shows that the Williams non-try was the right decision - knock-on; so go back for the penalty



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 13:25
Quote:
Which Tyler
Out of interest:
[twitter.com]
Shows that the Anscombe non-try was the right decision - knock-on; so go back for the penalty

Minor typo corrected.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 14:16
Ball went from hand to leg which is a kick.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 14:34
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Which Tyler
Out of interest:
[twitter.com]
Shows that the Anscombe non-try was the right decision - knock-on; so go back for the penalty

Minor typo corrected.
oops, yes, Williams was the Underhill tackle


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 15:59
Anyone else wondering whether Eddie is going a bit Mourinho on us? Silly mind-games in the build-up. A dull 1-0 win at home to a side missing 6-7 first choice, and then tearing into the rugby media afterwards for the cheek of having on opinion on Mike Brown Can we just have a decent performance please Ed?

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 16:47
Similarities I agree but Jose does it for effect, I think Eddie was genuinely angry.
Eddie does have some work to do though, settle in the reserve 9, and pack selection has more than a few questions.
I'd expect that the 2 week gap will bring a better performance though.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 17:00
The problem for Eddie is that England had the easiest possible start to the 6N and haven't performed well at all. Ireland must be huge favourites now.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 17:41
Quote:
OutsideBath
The problem for Eddie is that England had the easiest possible start to the 6N and haven't performed well at all. Ireland must be huge favourites now.

Not sure about the hardest start.

England and Ireland have both played Italy but France really don't look as much as a threat as Wales to me.

Nevertheless I suspect our lack of conditioning, so to speak, is our biggest risk when playing Ireland in the final week.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 17:51
So the WRU throw the Scarlets backs at England but I suspect the Scarlets fans won't be too happy with the consequences. Scarlets lose to Benneton

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 18:10
Quote:
OutsideBath
The problem for Eddie is that England had the easiest possible start to the 6N and haven't performed well at all. Ireland must be huge favourites now.

That's a couple of times you have rubbished England without being specific.

The problem for Eddie is that he has P2 W2 so tricky to make too many changes.

I agree that Ireland look good but England put Italy away the same and got into a scrap with Wales coming out best.

What would you do?

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 18:19
Ireland also looked lost against France. Not a single line break!

I think both England and Ireland will appreciate the two weeks in order to iron out some bits and pieces but both look good to me.

Hopefully a cracker of a final game at HQ!!!

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 18:19
Quote:
B4thB4ck
Quote:
OutsideBath
The problem for Eddie is that England had the easiest possible start to the 6N and haven't performed well at all. Ireland must be huge favourites now.

That's a couple of times you have rubbished England without being specific.

The problem for Eddie is that he has P2 W2 so tricky to make too many changes.

I agree that Ireland look good but England put Italy away the same and got into a scrap with Wales coming out best.

What would you do?

The advantage of having eleventy injuries for Wales is that they can reinvent how they play much more quickly and they're doing it very well. I expect them to beat both Ireland and France.

If I were Eddie I'd pick the same team again and tell them to actually play for 80 minutes next time.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 18:30
What we want is for Wales to beat Ireland, however,you can guarantee that Gatland will bring back his injured stars to disrupt the current Wales side.

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 18:36
No CB2 if you don't have control it's still a knock on even if you subsequently kick the ball before it hits the ground. Otherwise everyone would kick the ball after dropping it.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 18:59
Quote:
B4thB4ck
Quote:
OutsideBath
The problem for Eddie is that England had the easiest possible start to the 6N and haven't performed well at all. Ireland must be huge favourites now.

That's a couple of times you have rubbished England without being specific.

The problem for Eddie is that he has P2 W2 so tricky to make too many changes.

I agree that Ireland look good but England put Italy away the same and got into a scrap with Wales coming out best.

What would you do?

I would like to see England cutout the stupid penalties and reduce the total number we are giving away.

There are 2 good teams in the NH and right now England aren't performing to the level of 1 of them.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 19:37
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
B4thB4ck
Quote:
OutsideBath
The problem for Eddie is that England had the easiest possible start to the 6N and haven't performed well at all. Ireland must be huge favourites now.

That's a couple of times you have rubbished England without being specific.

The problem for Eddie is that he has P2 W2 so tricky to make too many changes.

I agree that Ireland look good but England put Italy away the same and got into a scrap with Wales coming out best.

What would you do?

I would like to see England cutout the stupid penalties and reduce the total number we are giving away.

There are 2 good teams in the NH and right now England aren't performing to the level of 1 of them.

Well that's pretty specific OB! (Sm161)

If you are about to have a go at one of the most successful international managers then Bath haven't got a chance!

It's a performance based on a short turnaround by a squad who are not only tired from last week but also from a crowded fixture list.

I agree Ireland are favourites because they are fresher but even they only just scraped past France.

I do agree that Eddie has work to do but seriously there isn't better candidate to do the job, plus the fact he can select whoever he wants without worrying about breaching the cap.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
11 February, 2018 19:38
Quote:
OutsideBath

I would like to see England cutout the stupid penalties and reduce the total number we are giving away.

There are 2 good teams in the NH and right now England aren't performing to the level of 1 of them.

Not quite with you there, who are the 2 good teams, presumably clearly better than England on the evidence of this 6N so far?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 07:16
Quote:
B4thB4ck
Quote:
OutsideBath

I would like to see England cutout the stupid penalties and reduce the total number we are giving away.

There are 2 good teams in the NH and right now England aren't performing to the level of 1 of them.

Not quite with you there, who are the 2 good teams, presumably clearly better than England on the evidence of this 6N so far?

England and Ireland are the 2 good teams, it's just that England aren't performing to their level right now.

Shipwrecked, my criticism is of the players not Eddie.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 07:44
I get that OB, my main point is that they are knackered!

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 08:08
EJ is diverting attention onto himself. It seems to be working. We match up well against Scotland and France, but the busy Irish pack will be the problem.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 08:19
I'm not convinced Ireland are playing -that- much better. They thumped Italy at home, so what, and all but lost in France.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 08:29
And conceded 19 points!

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 08:34
Quote:
shipwrecked
I get that OB, my main point is that they are knackered!

And Dan Wiley.

Always a difficult 6N after a Lions tour.

 
ken_jnr
ken_jnr (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 08:55
Iím wondering if we need to ready some players for the SA tour. But with only a year before the World Cup and the competitiveness in the squad I wouldnít want to give my shirt up that easily. Sinckler was the coming storm 6 months ago and as good as he is, Williams has done really well and I donít see a compelling case to drop him. Kruis has dipped slightly and Launchbury is nailed on again. There are any number of 6ís who could slot in for Lawes and have a decent crack.

First world problems for Eddie

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 09:49
England and Ireland are the two good teams. Neither are playing very well. Ireland in France was dire and they pulled the jammiest win out.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 10:39
Quote:
gaz59
Farrell has MoM nailed already. Ford showing several examples of those aimless kicks we all loved in the BBW

Ford was quality, as he was for most of his time in BBW.

Quote:
Optimist
Anyone else wondering whether Eddie is going a bit Mourinho on us? Silly mind-games in the build-up. A dull 1-0 win at home to a side missing 6-7 first choice, and then tearing into the rugby media afterwards for the cheek of having on opinion on Mike Brown Can we just have a decent performance please Ed?

25 wins out of 26 games and still people starting to turn on Eddie. How very English.

Quote:
OutsideBath
I would like to see England cutout the stupid penalties and reduce the total number we are giving away.

Very insightful.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 10:54
Thanks for putting all that straight BO. Nothing like sitting opinions like facts...

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 10:59
I can get on board with 'Eddie deflecting attention on to himself in the build-up'. But he made a bit of a d1ck of himself in his post-match interview with 5Live.

To quote, (Mike Brown), '...now he plays a good game, you're all on the bandwagon'.

Which kind of implies that he hadn't been 'good' before, yet the people who are paid to write about rugby shouldn't have been criticizing him.

My interpretation is that he is feeling frustrated that England aren't performing better. A home win against an injury-ravaged Wales team, with the fewest amount of points scored by England in a home win, and dependent on two finger-nail moments is hardly the stuff of dreams.

There's no questioning his record. But there is a question-mark as to whether he's getting the performances he could be, and i think he knows it.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:11
The odd thing about that was that Eddie was accusing Chris Jones who works with Danny Care and Ugo on the podcast and all of whom seem to be pretty good mates with Mike Brown if the banter is anything to go by? At least have a go at the right people Eddie!

Mike Brown had an excellent game but Eddie saying that he has played 23 excellent games was just garbage and clearly he was just in a real toddler huff about the whole thing.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:12
"But he made a bit of a d1ck of himself in his post-match interview with 5Live. "

What did he say?

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:22
I havent seen the 5Live interview; but immediately post-match Jill Douglas was doing her absolute best to piss him right off - and pissing people right off is one things she's VERY good at.

As for his comments on Brown - he's now got Brown's loyalty for life. "Coach went in to bat for his player" hardly seems shocking news to me. "Person looks quite defensive whilst being continuously attacked" also seems pretty reasonable.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:22
See Bathmatt53's post at 11 February, 2018 00:44 in this thread for the link.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:24
Did Mike Brown have an excellent game?
He caught all but one of the kicks he had to catch, exactly what you'd expect of an international 15, but he still fails to pass or be at all aware of the runners around him, always taking contact, and rarely if ever breaks the tackle.
Criticism of him from the pundits is entirely justified as Eddie seems to have a blind spot, much like his blind spot with regards to YBY and only picking two scrum halves in his squad, so failing to give the likes of Robson any experience.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:32
I think that Eddie's concept of a "good performance from a full back" is purely based on his defensive performance. Which to be fair has been consistently good.

The fact that Brown runs into contact, doesn't launch a counter attack and rarely passes simply doesn't register.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:43
What I did find uncomfortable was all the 'in the face' shouting at the other players from Brown etc. (and AWJ on the other side). Its certainly everything that we tell the kids not to do in the youth set-up. In fact if they continued to do it they would have been off for a chat with their coach if I had been reffing. I know that 'sportsmanship' is part of the game but I don't like seeing stuff like that when someone knocks on or whatever.

[www.walesonline.co.uk]

Maybe I just need to get real / toughen up and accept that its part of the game now.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:43
Maybe I'm too jaundiced but I didn't see a quality performance from Ford. Yes his kicks to touch were very good but that is bread and butter stuff. One or two neat exchanges with Farrell but with the amount of possession we had surely there should have been something that threatened the try line?

And Brown, well he delivered to Eddie's game-plan so easy to see why Eddie was so happy with him but the likes of ABs and Australia will have watched that and hope he continues to keep the starting 15 shirt up to the next RWC

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:50
Yeah, blatantly stealing from Paddy here, but:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVyMv7JW4AIV-9-.jpg

WalesOnline are a joke and are possibly the most biased organisation in the world.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 11:59
Walesonline or not, both sides were doing it all afternoon...

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 12:06
Sure, but the majority of the opprobrium has been directed at Mike Brown.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 12:14
He does seem to make a point of running some distance to get in peoples faces. Mike Phillips was a classic for that sort of stuff obviously (i.e. start a fight in a phonebox).

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 12:30
It's a joke that Mike Brown was man of the match - there were at least 5 English and 5 Welsh players who were better in their jobs than him. But the fact that Joe Launchbury was not man of the match renders the whole thing farcical and irrelevant anyway.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 12:37
At least Joe has the RWC MOTM to console himself with.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 12:54
Quote:
hasta
At least Joe has the RWC MOTM to console himself with.

Sheer ecstacy!

http://cdn1.rugbydump.com/posts/large/launchbury-manofthematch-main.jpg

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:13
My hunch without watching the game again was that in this particular match Brown didn't butcher any passing opportunities.

The ball was wet, the scores were tight, the game broke up and players were often out of position with all the kicking.

With all that in mind I think running the ball back was exactly what I wanted Brown to do, aim for the forward support and make sure the ball is protected.

I don't recall him coming into the line and not passing, may have missed one.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:16
[quote joethefanatic][quote DanWiley]


FWIW I thought it was an absolute nailed on try.I'd have been pretty disappointed if it had been an England try disallowed.[/quote]

former International referee Rob Debby in The Times says officials "got it wrong" -they were too quick to decide & claims Owens or Barnes would have looked at more angles.

He also says:

"...the breakdown, which Garces allowed to become a complete mess..",
"The tone was set early when he allowed Welsh players to flop over the ball but penalised England for it.

On balance, if he had corrected both the points Debby criticises him for, we could expect 7 more points for Wales & at least 6 more for England, given the intensity of their attacks in the first twenty and middle of second half.

So- still an England win.

PG



P G Tips



Alex Davies: my adopted Player, 2018-19.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:22
Anscombe got it down before Ant, but it was knocked on before that. So, no try. They took 3 points from it anyway.

Wales' discipline was remarkable/an interesting review for the ref. I believe they conceded only two penalties all match.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:25
I think you're pretty much spot on BathBack. The thing with Brown is that he plays the way he played on Saturday whether it's a monsoon or a dry day, a flat track and second rate opposition. So on Saturday he was spot on. What I find impossible to understand is why Eddie isn't interested in finding out how England might be able to attack without him. Having him there - for me - negates, in attack, the fact that England have two play-makers at 10/12.

And it's not as if players such as Watson, Nowell, Daly can't catch a high-ball, or pick the moment to find touch or the safety of their forwards. But they all have attributes that Brown is way too old to learn now.

And, through his petulant outburst, Eddie has pretty much eliminated the possibility of looking beyond Brown.

 
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hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:28
Brown was pretty excellent on a dry day and a flat track against Argentina in the summer...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:46
"So- still an England win. "

I don't think that's really the point. Had the try been awarded I have a feeling it would have been the incentive England needed to actually play some rugby, but regardless the ref made many decisions throughout that game that if you took one way or the other would have meant totally different results. That try is awarded, the game changes. It wasn't, nothings going to change that.

So, I'm not really playing the "what if" game. But there are a lot of people saying the TMO got it wrong. I don't think you can make that statement based on the evidence, not the stuff at the time nor the stuff that's come out later. My inclination is that he was harsh, but closer to right than wrong. Even with my best red hat on, I can only see it as "likely a try but no more." The grounding is far from clear, sometimes that goes with you, sometimes against. As the meme says "unlucky petal".

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 13:51
Quote:
BathMatt53
Walesonline or not, both sides were doing it all afternoon...

Agree it needs to be addressed. What is priceless though is that there is so much whipped up anger based on the fact that "Mike Brown sneered at them". A serious crime according to Walesonline!

Its not helped by comments like this by Emyr Lewis. The article claims Eddie had a go at Patchell, proved correct and AWJ who pointedly went to the ref pointing out England had 4 penalties in the same area of the field.

Seeing as Dan Biggar is the biggest exponent of this it's a bit hard to accept.

I suspect that it's a Wales v England thing so it will be interesting to see if the behaviour is the same in the next round of matches.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 14:14
Quote:
"So- still an England win. "
I don't think that's really the point. Had the try been awarded I have a feeling it would have been the incentive England needed to actually play some rugby, but regardless the ref made many decisions throughout that game that if you took one way or the other would have meant totally different results. That try is awarded, the game changes. It wasn't, nothings going to change that.

Fair, although more immediately if it had been awarded then Wales would have got 5 or 7 points, rather than the 3 they did. Given England won by 6, even if they try was awarded and nothing changed (which I agree is different) it would still not have been a Wales win.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 14:41
The game equally would have changed had he penalised Wales at the breakdown - a phase where England were penalised, but Wales IIRC were not (they only conceded 2 penalties all match).

England got their second try as a direct result of quick ruck ball and attempted the same again throughout the first half - quicker ball would almost certainly have brought more tries: penalising prevention would have brought penalties.

PG

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 14:56
"Seeing as Dan Biggar is the biggest exponent of this it's a bit hard to accept"

Agreed. But the way i see it, is I support England. I don't really care (as much) how much other players behave. I want England players to behave well.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 15:20
That sounds nice, England players setting the standards of good behaviour, a bit like those funny adverts on ITV during rugby.

In the heat of battle though I say give as good as you get if the ref allows it.

The ref is there to sort bad behaviour and I would certainly like to see them stop the sarcastic pats on the back and wind ups from either side.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 15:31
Actually, now I think of it Joe Marler springs to mind! Unfortunately for him it seems to work against him as often as not.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 18:29
I like to see a bit of niggle in the game, some players thrive on it, don't understand the calls for it to be stamped out.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 18:45
Quote:
Optimist
"Seeing as Dan Biggar is the biggest exponent of this it's a bit hard to accept"
Agreed. But the way i see it, is I support England. I don't really care (as much) how much other players behave. I want England players to behave well.

That philosophy is the one I used to get from my Mum, guess I never learn. eye rolling smiley

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 20:02
[www.bathrugby.com]

Ewels back with England and Charteris not able to play on astro - doesn't make the game against Newcastle any easier.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 20:23
Stooke, Phillips and Douglas then?

Grant, Bayliss and Garvey back row?

Do we know when Louw is hopefully back?

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 20:43
Quote:
BathMatt53
https://www.bathrugby.com/news/ewels-joins-up-with-england/
Ewels back with England and Charteris not able to play on astro - doesn't make the game against Newcastle any easier.
Eddie is highly unlikely to retain any but his 23, and probably not even that many for this weekend.
Charlie will head off for training, but be available for the weekend - barring about 3 lock injuries anyway.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 20:46
Quote:
by
I like to see a bit of niggle in the game, some players thrive on it, don't understand the calls for it to be stamped out.

Me too - and I donít quite know how to define, let alone legislate for, the difference between niggle, and the more recent interactions.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 20:47
But if he is scrummaging against the Georgians tues and wed and at the open training on Friday he wonít be playing in Newcastle in Friday evening - or do you think released after wed? It would be tight if itís a heavy scrum session.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 20:58
Quote:
BathMatt53
But if he is scrummaging against the Georgians tues and wed and at the open training on Friday he wonít be playing in Newcastle in Friday evening - or do you think released after wed? It would be tight if itís a heavy scrum session.
I'm using the previous 10 years as my guide. The only times an England has kept anyone outside his match-day 23 for a fallow weekend has been for injury concern.


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/02/2018 21:51 by Which Tyler.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 21:15
I wonder if Ewels is still ahead of Kruis as he seemed to be before his injury. If so he could well be in the 23. I guess we find out soon...

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 21:39
Is Kruis injury free? Thatís quite something if Ewels is ahead of him.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
12 February, 2018 22:16
It was quite close for the autumn internationals I think?

[www.independent.co.uk]

Eddie does seem to rate our Charlie and it didnít help that Kruis lost his way a bit...mind you Launchbury has made himself pretty undroppable recently, really pleased for the lad.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 16:48
[www.bbc.co.uk]

World Rugby confirm TMO error in England v Wales match.

In a statement issued to BBC Sport Wales, World Rugby confirmed Howley's comments.

"World Rugby has clarified to the Wales team management as part of the usual review process with teams that the TMO made an error in the application of law during the England versus Wales match at Twickenham," they said.

"In accordance with law 21.1 b Wales should have been awarded a try as the Wales player grounded the ball."

 
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Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 16:53
Yes - if you ignore the knock-on, and concentrate only on the grounding, then it's a try.
Unfortunately, if you ask the question the ref asked, then the knock-on still counts, and "no-try" is still the right answer.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
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hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 16:54
What a preposterous statement by World Rugby. Are they going to comment on every error (even though this was in fact a correct result due to the knock-on) or just the ones the Welsh sulk about?

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 17:01
So WR have now set a precedent re grounding, "pressing down with the hand" = touching the side of the ball with fingers.

Agree with all the above comments BTW.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 17:01
I don't think that you have it right about the knock on. I thought the same until I looked it up on the World Rugby site.

12.1 A knock-on occurs when a player loses ball possession, or contacts the ball with hand or arm, and the ball goes forward to touch the ground or another player before this player gains, or regains, possession. Forward means towards the opposing teamís goal line.

Sanction: Free pass to the non-offending team

(it didn't)

12.2 A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.

Sanction: Free pass to the non-offending team

(he didn't)

12.3 Intentional knock or throw forward: A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.

Sanction: Free pass. A penalty try must be awarded if the offense prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

(it clearly wasn't)

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 17:04
Quote:
or contacts the ball with hand or arm, and the ball goes forward to touch the ground or another player before this player gains, or regains, possession. Forward means towards the opposing teamís goal line.

It did. It touched Stef Evans hands then his shin (which was not gaining or regaining possession) then hit the ground towards the opposing team's goal line before Anscombe touched it down.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 17:17
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
or contacts the ball with hand or arm, and the ball goes forward to touch the ground or another player before this player gains, or regains, possession. Forward means towards the opposing teamís goal line.

It did. It touched Stef Evans hands then his shin (which was not gaining or regaining possession) then hit the ground towards the opposing team's goal line before Anscombe touched it down.

Why is that not a kick / grubber then? (deliberate or not)? Off hand, to leg, forward.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 18:15
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
or contacts the ball with hand or arm, and the ball goes forward to touch the ground or another player before this player gains, or regains, possession. Forward means towards the opposing teamís goal line.

It did. It touched Stef Evans hands then his shin (which was not gaining or regaining possession) then hit the ground towards the opposing team's goal line before Anscombe touched it down.

Why is that not a kick / grubber then? (deliberate or not)? Off hand, to leg, forward.
because it wasn't a deliberate, controlled act


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 18:32
...the hand or the kick? I could say he went for it with his hand and missed the catch so shinned it forward deliberately. But I'm not Welsh so I won't.

Definite knock-on followed by obvious non-downward pressure!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 19:00
A kick is a deliberate act, this wasn't.

 
MESSAGES->author
Toast and Marmite (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 19:13
Quote:
hasta
What a preposterous statement by World Rugby. Are they going to comment on every error (even though this was in fact a correct result due to the knock-on) or just the ones the Welsh sulk about?
Ridiculous from World Rugby...


"No sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you."

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 19:32
Quote:
hasta
A kick is a deliberate act, this wasn't.

Lots of entwined laws here!

So, 'possession' includes 'attempting to bring it [the ball] under control' so I guess in relation to the knock on Law did he attempt to bring it under control (i.e. regain possession?).

It wasn't a kick as the World Rugby definition says that you can shin it but not knee it (as Ben Youngs found out the other week).

I'll be quiet now, I've even bored myself.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 19:42
None of the video I've been able to find shows Steff Evans knocking on. He *tries* to gather the ball with his hands but completely misses it and the ball hits his shin. That is not a knock on.

[www.youtube.com]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England team for wales
13 February, 2018 19:47
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
hasta
A kick is a deliberate act, this wasn't.

Lots of entwined laws here!

So, 'possession' includes 'attempting to bring it [the ball] under control' so I guess in relation to the knock on Law did he attempt to bring it under control (i.e. regain possession?).

It wasn't a kick as the World Rugby definition says that you can shin it but not knee it (as Ben Youngs found out the other week).

I'll be quiet now, I've even bored myself.

I think the knee thing is only in regard to taking a quick tap penalty. In open play, the ball can be played forward with *any* part of the body other than the hand or arms. Hence ref calls of "off his chest". etc. Nige calls this a lot. It seems to be an opportunity ripe for exploitation. I imagine Brendan Venter is all over it smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/02/2018 19:50 by joethefanatic.

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