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dannyf2
dannyf2 (IP Logged)

Aviva Premiership standard
17 February, 2018 18:35
Having had a day to breath and get over last night's abomination, I tried to see the bigger picture. Bath Rugby was embarrassingly poor last night. Newcastle's performance to beat us was average at best. Last week our team was mediocre, triumphing over a pathetic Northampton side. Gloucester were woeful today, beaten by an OK Worcester side. You only need to glance at the Tigers message board to gauge how supporters in Leicester feel about the general standard they have been watching this season, despite their win today. Quins have put in some diabolical performances. Sale dull. Wasps have looked inconsistent. Even Sarries and Exeter have wobbled.

Can the Aviva Premiership be proud of the standard being served up to fans on a weekly basis? We rarely get to see our top players because they are injured or on international duty; Bath fans aren't the only ones suffering. I don't blame the players, but something isn't right. Flick on the southern hemisphere Super Rugby for 10 minutes and you will be astonished at the difference. Watch a half of any provincial Irish side playing in Europe and you will dream that Bath could play like that.

The product is poor. The players are highly remunerated. The fans deserve better.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
17 February, 2018 18:43
I think the players are flogged and the cap is partly to blame for clubs squeezing the most out of the squad

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
17 February, 2018 18:50
Interesting point you make about club fans but then Europe. Those same Irish fans watch second string kids running around every week and only get to see the stars in a green jersey or in the Euro cup.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
17 February, 2018 19:13
Quote:
B4thB4ck
I think the players are flogged and the cap is partly to blame for clubs squeezing the most out of the squad

Opti will make a better case than me, however, overworked players leading to injuries has wrecked several AP teams this season. They are killing the goose that laid the golden egg!

The consequence may well be we will be selecting form a smaller pool for the RWC and those that get selected will probably be lethargic and lack zip due to fatigue.

All Eddies hard work will be wasted for the sake of greedy rugby organisers.

 
dannyf2
dannyf2 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
17 February, 2018 21:04
To me it often seems like TB is shell-shocked about how@#$%&the standard can be, compared to where he came from

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 08:25
"the cap is partly to blame for clubs squeezing the most out of the squad"

The cap had gone up and up, squads haven't got bigger or better, players have just been paid more.

 
dcsh
dcsh (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 11:02
It would seem that player salary demands have used up the increases in the cap and they have therefore condemned themselves to having to be part of small squads and playing more games. Billy V came out and said he would take a pay cut to play less matches which is fine for a player of his earning power, but unlikely for normal squad player grinding out 25+ matches a season.

 
john fox
johnnyf (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 11:13
Good post df2.
Whichever way you look at it, we the loyal supporters are being short-changed in the product we are presented with.
Clubs, players, the club v country debate all militate against a regular delivery of top quality performances.
Is buying a season ticket good value for money? The jury is out.
However, Club owners,the RFU and players need to talk about where it is all going.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 11:32
Good debate to be had here, a classic less is more argument. Money.....

 
Hercules Spoons
Hercules Spoons (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 13:16
Interesting subject Dan.
As a Bristol supporter other than watching four or five games at the Wreck this season most of my spectating of the Prem has been on the TV and I have been surprised (appalled) at the state of some of the pitches: Ricoh and Welford Rd spring to mind.
I consider they are not conducive to entertaining, skillful rugby.

Added to that the loss of the International players for so many club games is also detrimental, however I don't have the answer to that one.

Interestingly (well I think so) I think the intensity and passion is greater in the Championship, perhaps they're playing more for the joy than the money?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 13:38
Agreed, welford Road was like a ploughed field yesterday.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 14:11
Are there that many top level players to fill the large squads of 12 teams? Your 4th choice hooker might be the 40th best hooker in the country, probably even worse when you look at some 2nd row cover. I have been going on for ages about reducing the number of sides, having one European NFL type competition with fewer games but bigger events.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 14:25
Quote:
cb2
Are there that many top level players to fill the large squads of 12 teams? Your 4th choice hooker might be the 40th best hooker in the country, probably even worse when you look at some 2nd row cover. I have been going on for ages about reducing the number of sides, having one European NFL type competition with fewer games but bigger events.

Who in the prem would miss out?!

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 14:29
Not sure i can Shipwrecked, but instinct says that whatever data is being collected for this season, is going to show it as a bit of a 'perfect storm' in terms of the toll on players.

And the physical toll can only have one possible effect on the quality of the rugby. Not just because teams are missing players to choose from on match-day, but:

- individual players' and teams' ability to train effectively is diminished
- how often are teams able to put out the same side, or even broadly the same side, in consecutive matches? Lack of continuity is bound to have an effect on quality.

For me, the most damaging thing in rugby now is the diminution of space. Compared to 25-30 years ago the pitch is - at a rough guess- effectively 25% smaller. Players are bigger and faster. There are 23 of them as opposed to 15, all of them immeasurably fitter, and so whereas before several of the team would be lagging behind play, you will now see a prop who has dropped the ball in the opposition 22 turning up in the defensive line in his own 22 10 seconds later.


One, slightly unrelated thing occurred to me on the salary cap. Presumably there is no geographical 'weighting'?£150k, for example, would go a lot further in Newcastle or Exter than it would in south west London or Bath. I wonder if it's easier for Exeter to hang on to players when they are transitioning from the Academy. A 19-year old being paid £25k in Exeter would feel a lot flusher than his peers elsewhere.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 15:42
Anyone doubting the standard on show in the Avila Prem should tune into Wasps v Chiefs. This is an excellent game between two excellent teams.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 15:56
Isn't the paucity of the product simply down to player attrition?

Too many games.
Congested calendar.
So many injuries mean makeshift teams every week.
Players playing when not fully fit.
Different team every week means no time to gel.
Not enough players to train against in the week.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 16:01
I think we need to invest in the academy - we have very few players coming through from this pool if potentially future first team players

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 16:01
Yes entertaining at the moment

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 16:29
Quote:
Beergoggles
Anyone doubting the standard on show in the Avila Prem should tune into Wasps v Chiefs. This is an excellent game between two excellent teams.

Exeter surely not heading for a 3rd prem loss on the trot? Not their usual clinical self recently.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 16:41
Watching Wasps Exe game - 100 minutes since ko and 20 still to go. At least 3 Wasps gone injured. 3 or so HIAs.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 16:57
Yes a couple of nasty looking ones too. Glos will be facing a weakened Wasps team for sure.

A third Exe loss on the trot. The Exe board moaning about the ref (who seemed ok to me as a neutral) but their players weren’t clinical enough - they seem to have lost the knack of scoring at the moment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/02/2018 17:03 by BathMatt53.

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 17:28
IMO they were some very harsh calls on Exeter in the first half.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 17:32
I don’t agree. I do think that AJs yellow was probably orange, you can’t go flying in like that. I thought that Wasps deserved the win through sheer hard work. Thomas Young had an outstanding game, totally deserved MOM for me.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 17:37
Ref missed a knock on right in front of him before Wasps try. If he'd given that the Exe player wouldn't have been yellow carded.

Either way 2 fine sides on display playing at a level we can only dream of.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Hamptonite
Hamptonite (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 18:20
Ian E

Totally agree about investing in the academy, but I don’t agree with your comment about players not coming through.

Z.Mercer, Ewels, Obano, Bayliss, Atkins, Clark, Dunn, Cook, isn’t a bad payback is it?

 
dragonfly
dragonfly (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 18:25
The standard of the Premiership is fine when teams actually have their full squads. I don't mean when all are fit but when the "star" players are not on the interminable International camps and training periods. There should be NO premiership games during International windows.

Rugby is getting rather like cricket in that international players are only nominally part of a club. Are their wages paid by the ECB.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 18:46
Quote:
dragonfly
The standard of the Premiership is fine when teams actually have their full squads. I don't mean when all are fit but when the "star" players are not on the interminable International camps and training periods. There should be NO premiership games during International windows.
Rugby is getting rather like cricket in that international players are only nominally part of a club. Are their wages paid by the ECB.

True for Ireland, but then they are club, region and centrally contracted country. In England the credits would only make a fairly small proportion of the top guys wages at the £80k per man cap.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 19:18
"Either way 2 fine sides on display playing at a level we can only dream of."

Good game, but I've seen bath play that well, better even, plenty of times.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 19:32
Quote:
DanWiley
"Either way 2 fine sides on display playing at a level we can only dream of."
Good game, but I've seen bath play that well, better even, plenty of times.

I've been to almost all games home/away and I haven't seen it under TB.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 20:41
Quote:
DanWiley
"Either way 2 fine sides on display playing at a level we can only dream of."
Good game, but I've seen bath play that well, better even, plenty of times.

So have I, just not this season unfortunately. Wasps seem to have added a steely streak to their flair which is a warning to all 11 remaining Prem clubs.

Commiserations to BathOvalBaller. His beloved Exe losing 3 on the spin must be tough to swallow.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
18 February, 2018 21:17
A Pyrrhic victory, I wonder, given the number of serious injuries Wasps picked up.

Glos must be delighted.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 09:47
There is a bit of coalescence between this and the "pathetic performance" thread but I think this is most appropriate here.

Several posters have made the same point above about fatigue affecting the standard of the AP. Related to this is the increase in injury amongst AP teams. There is proof that fatigue and injury are related, specifically hamstring injuries When you add in HIA related issues fatigue has to have a significant effect on team selection.

Last weekends performance was clearly substandard but if you are considering the standard of the AP realistically it has to be done based on 'First team' selections or at least 'First team' selections with say 5 players injured.

When you start to compare standards with, in our case 20 players injured, you are probably comparing 'second team' selections.

When injury ravaged teams fail to perform it should be no big surprise really, it's not dissimilar to AP teams playing Championship teams.

I am tempted to suggest that last weekend's team might struggle to beat Bristol, particularly as they have a settled side. After all Will Hurrell does not seem to be struggling!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/02/2018 10:10 by shipwrecked.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 10:01
So less games = less fatigue = less injury = better performances.

Other than less games, is there anything else to be done?
Rule changes?
It may be sacrilege for some, but is it unthinkable to de-power the scrums? Front rows get injured more often. If you didn't need so many of then you could save some dosh. Nobody enjoys countless re-sets and lectures from the ref. Do we need teams milking penalties from pretty arbitrary decisions?



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 11:46
Without checking stats, scrum penalties seem to have decreased a lot from a couple of years back?

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 11:51
With the refs urging teams to play the ball if available, it feels like it, but I doubt there are less collapsed scrums. I'm not an expert but I'd have thought scrum collapses must be one of the major causes of front row injuries.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
Hercules Spoons
Hercules Spoons (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 12:07
shipwrecked - Bristol 'settled side'? 11 changes this weekend. Keep up.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 12:17
Quote:
Hercules Spoons
shipwrecked - Bristol 'settled side'? 11 changes this weekend. Keep up.

Sorry HS, I did try but as a Bath supporter keeping up with Bris is hard. On a general note though is the championship as ravaged by injury as the AP is? That was the point I was trying to make.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 13:03
Put a limit on the number of games a player can play? I know there is one, but reduce and police it.

That way the cap HAS to be spent more widely. Players can't just ask for more cash and clubs can't say "great, lets bring in another star."

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
19 February, 2018 23:19
IMO, what we need is fewer, higher quality matches at the top, with a more pyramidal structure at the top of the game, concentrating the talent a bit more, and preferably, decreasing the number of overseas mercenaries (thought that's not too bad these last few years).

IMO, decrease the Prem to 10 teams, 5 get EPRC places.
Probably shrink the champ to 10 (we can sustain a good 20 fully pro clubs IMO)
Increase promo/rele to the Championship to 1 automatic and another play off.
Ring-fence the top two leagues (with specific criteria to eject underperformers or include ambitious semi-pro.s)
MSCs for both leagues, but looser than the current, but with additional requirements for admin etc. Same salary cap for both.
TV deal is for both leagues.
RFU academies for all.
Expand the AWC, by adding the champ teams. 6 pools of 4, orthodox fixture list; knock-out stages to include cup, plate and shield, so that everyone gets KO experience*. Players only eligible if they played less than X minutes in the previous season.
This gives us 6 pool + 3 KO weekends to fit into the 10 week international window. We've bought that by reducing the league by 4 weekends and helped player welfare with that game time limit for the domestic cup - I'd also have a maximum number of minutes for every player anyway.

Clubs go from 22+2, 6+3, 4+2 (32-39) matches to 18+2, 6+3, 6+3* (31-38) matches, so the loss of 1 home game. Matches are a higher quality in the league, whilst clubs get a greater variety of opposition, especially for the less experienced players. Championship clubs get a higher quality league, with a chance of giant slaying in the cup. All clubs are guaranteed at least one QF* per season.
Increasing the quality of the champ, along with inclusion in the TV deal (and the direct cash and subsequent sponsorship and growth opportunities), increased promotion opportunities, giant-slaying options, and that ring-fence means that this shouldn't (hopefully) be too much a case of turkeys voting for Christmas.

For the champ teams, without European rugby, you could argue that they'd be lacking match numbers. You could also argue that this is better for player welfare, allows them to rest ahead of their giant-slaying opportunities, and allow for smaller squads... But I suspect that wouldn't fly, and we'd need to reinstate the B&I cup or something.
Alternatively, increase the champ to 14 (just the 2 dropping down being added), which negates that aspect; but would mean throwing the Welsh out of the domestic cup (oh well, nevermind), but does count against improving the quality of the champ. I vacilate on this each time I think about it, and I guess it would ultimately depend on how many champ clubs want to go fully pro and have (reduced) MSCs applied.
Of course, you could get a situation where, too many champ clubs would choose not to go fully pro; in which case I'd argue for the RFU getting involved and "assisting" 1-3 clubs in union-poor areas, say Carlisle, Preston or Canterbury.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 00:07
Quote:
Which Tyler
IMO, what we need is fewer, higher quality matches at the top, with a more pyramidal structure at the top of the game, concentrating the talent a bit more, and preferably, decreasing the number of overseas mercenaries (thought that's not too bad these last few years).
IMO, decrease the Prem to 10 teams, 5 get EPRC places.
Probably shrink the champ to 10 (we can sustain a good 20 fully pro clubs IMO)
Increase promo/rele to the Championship to 1 automatic and another play off.
Ring-fence the top two leagues (with specific criteria to eject underperformers or include ambitious semi-pro.s)
MSCs for both leagues, but looser than the current, but with additional requirements for admin etc. Same salary cap for both.
TV deal is for both leagues.
RFU academies for all.
Expand the AWC, by adding the champ teams. 6 pools of 4, orthodox fixture list; knock-out stages to include cup, plate and shield, so that everyone gets KO experience*. Players only eligible if they played less than X minutes in the previous season.
This gives us 6 pool + 3 KO weekends to fit into the 10 week international window. We've bought that by reducing the league by 4 weekends and helped player welfare with that game time limit for the domestic cup - I'd also have a maximum number of minutes for every player anyway.

Clubs go from 22+2, 6+3, 4+2 (32-39) matches to 18+2, 6+3, 6+3* (31-38) matches, so the loss of 1 home game. Matches are a higher quality in the league, whilst clubs get a greater variety of opposition, especially for the less experienced players. Championship clubs get a higher quality league, with a chance of giant slaying in the cup. All clubs are guaranteed at least one QF* per season.
Increasing the quality of the champ, along with inclusion in the TV deal (and the direct cash and subsequent sponsorship and growth opportunities), increased promotion opportunities, giant-slaying options, and that ring-fence means that this shouldn't (hopefully) be too much a case of turkeys voting for Christmas.

For the champ teams, without European rugby, you could argue that they'd be lacking match numbers. You could also argue that this is better for player welfare, allows them to rest ahead of their giant-slaying opportunities, and allow for smaller squads... But I suspect that wouldn't fly, and we'd need to reinstate the B&I cup or something.
Alternatively, increase the champ to 14 (just the 2 dropping down being added), which negates that aspect; but would mean throwing the Welsh out of the domestic cup (oh well, nevermind), but does count against improving the quality of the champ. I vacilate on this each time I think about it, and I guess it would ultimately depend on how many champ clubs want to go fully pro and have (reduced) MSCs applied.
Of course, you could get a situation where, too many champ clubs would choose not to go fully pro; in which case I'd argue for the RFU getting involved and "assisting" 1-3 clubs in union-poor areas, say Carlisle, Preston or Canterbury.

Clearly thought through to get the best rugby, however, getting rid of clubs will be nigh impossible, which clubs, based on geography, performance or attendance.

What if one of those clubs is Bath? Don't you think its a bit radical WT, not that I have anything better to suggest mind.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 08:53
Well thought out WT.

If the Clubs (most importantly as they control the domestic competitions) and the RFU are serious about player welfare, your solutions WT would appear eminently sensible.

The one caveat I would add is that clubs MUST look to break even as a minimum each season, without the input from wealthy individuals and corporations. Yes they are able to spend their share of TV money and any extra earned by way of prize money, all to the good. Hopefully this would establish the viability of each club in the top two leagues and provide the basis for long term competition and give the players an idea of security. It would also remove the needed support/ influence of sugar daddies and foreign companies and help maintain salaries at affordable levels. It would definitely take a few years to establish but would in my view help cement the future of the game long term.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 09:15
It's not necessarily getting rid of clubs; I'm completely open to still having 24 between the top 2 leagues, if all 24 want to go fully pro and take part.
However, I believe that there are something like 3 clubs in the champ who would take promotion if attained, and another 3-4 who'd be willing to look into it given time and finance.
I'm proposing a reduced set of MSCs for the champ, but I suspect that some still wouldn't be interested, in which case, they'd be the ones to drop out. I suspect you'd be more likely to find fewer than 8 champ clubs willing to take the risk, than that all 12 do. If fewer than 8, then I propose the RFU offer assistance (financial and administrative) to geographically selected clubs (AKA, someone from the north west), if all 12 want to stay then we reduce the Prem and increase the champ, if 10 want to stay, then we reduce the Prem and don't touch leave the champ at 12.

My plan requires fairly significant investment into the Championship, which is why I'm willing to introduce ring-fence at that level, whilst also improving the quality of the league (ideally, by adding 2 Prem standard teams, and removing 4 less able teams), adding a TV deal (which increases sponsorship and raises awareness which should help draw crowds) and providing more fluctuation between the two leagues. It also allows for potential giant-slaying match ups where the champ teams take on the Prem clubs, (can you imagine how Bedford would feel about taking on Leicester? Or Plymouth about Exeter? Hartbury for Glos? Bristol to have a shot at Bath?)

Basically, I'm interested in increasing the quality of both leagues; reducing the attrition on the top players; increasing opportunities for the second choices and youngsters; reducing clashes between the league and international rugby and ideally, increasing the geographical spread at the top of the game.

Yss, it's radical. Any joined-up plan will have to be radical, and the longer it all goes unaddressed, the more radical it's going to have to be as wages sky-rocket, and pressure sky-rockets, and the gap between Prem and Champ sky-rockets, and the number and severity of injuries sky-rockets.
The only alternative I see is a ring-fence Premiership, probably with ever more franchises to be moved when sold, with players lucky to last 8 years as a pro, with minimal-no use of academies as you can just buy from abroad, and virtually no players bowing out on their own terms, but all being retired-hurt or simply ditched for the latest hot property.
I really, really don't want to see rugby go down that route



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 09:25
BoB - fair point on the sugar daddies, some form of financial fair-play should come into the MSCs, though not as simplistically as that. You have to allow for investment for example; but it has to be made with reasonably sound financial basis.
A new stadium, for example, will not come cheap, and would be fought to build withing an annual operating budget, but it should come with a business plan to be able to pay for itself.

Rugby goes in cycles of 4 years, so say a rolling 4-yearly break-even; with certain investments (infrastructure, !aybe charitable work) allowed outside of that.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
alibev
alibev (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 09:49
I'd argue for the RFU getting involved and "assisting" 1-3 clubs in union-poor areas, say Carlisle, Preston or Canterbury.

I suspect Wade Dooley, Paul Grayson, Will Greenwood, Pat Sanderson, Alex Sanderson, Iain Balshaw and Steve Borthwick would take issue with Preston being labelled a union-poor area.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 10:16
Quote:
alibev
I'd argue for the RFU getting involved and "assisting" 1-3 clubs in union-poor areas, say Carlisle, Preston or Canterbury.
I suspect Wade Dooley, Paul Grayson, Will Greenwood, Pat Sanderson, Alex Sanderson, Iain Balshaw and Steve Borthwick would take issue with Preston being labelled a union-poor area.
That's exactly the reason I'd be looking for a top-flight club up there. The closest thing to representation at the top table I can find for North of Manchester on the Western half of the country, is Fylde, sitting bottom of ND1.
You've got to go to regional divisions to get the likes of the Grasshoppers.

FTR: I'd envision my 10+10 divisions looking something like:
Saracens, Exeter, Wasps, Gloucester, Newcastle, Bath, Leicester, Sale, Quins

Nothampton vs Bristol in a play off.

Worcester (already meet Prem MSC)
LIrish (already meet Prem MSC)
Ealing (ambitious and wealthy, and I believe have plans to meet Prem MSC)
Leedshire(already meet Prem MSC)
Doncaster (I believe have plans in place, but would need a few years and security)
Bedford(I believe have plans in place, but would need a few years and security)
Nottingham(I believe have plans in place, but would need a few years and security)
CPirates(I believe have plans in place, but would need £££) (9 so far)

I am under the impression that...
Jersey, LScottish and Rotherham couldn't afford it and haven't even looked at drawing up plans
Richmond wouldn't want it, and couldn't meet even fairly basic MSCs
Hartbury wouldn't be allowed (too close a tie with Gloucester)
They'd all be given the chance though.

The likes of Preston/Fylde; Carlisle or Canterbury would be offered RFU help to make up the numbers initially (a league needs an even number; whether that's 10, 12 or 14). Any of those would significantly weaken the quality of the Champ initially; but... they'd be ring-fenced in; and given the chance to build up gradually, have an RFU academy installed; get on telly. Of course, they may also have their limitations on MSCs if their grounds are simply untenable; in which case they'd be free to reject the offer. My preference, would obviously be to keep the 9 listed, and Jersey as the best-placed of my doubts.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 20/02/2018 10:44 by Which Tyler.

 
Trev's Big Tackle
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 11:09
Interesting read. What does MSC mean?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 11:18
Minimum Standards Criteria

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 11:25
Quote:
Ealing (ambitious and wealthy, and I believe have plans to meet Prem MSC)

I live in Ealing. Trailfinders are a looooooong way away from meeting Prem MSC, for all their excellence as a community club and their development recently. If LIrish move to Brentford I'd expect them to be a more likely candidate for the area. Richmond are much more established than Ealing and in combination with London Scottish are more likely to have a stadium that can meet MSC.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
20 February, 2018 17:23
Do Richmond still play at the Athletic Ground and have as joint tenants, London Scottish?

I have happy memories of playing at that ground against Richmond's Second side, the Vikings, and when we were playing on the second team pitch, the spectators from the London Scottish game on the first pitch, used to come and watch our game. Had wonderful nights in the bar beneath the main stand and in those days the Richmond Chairman always bought a barrel of beer to be consumed by us players. Got to know some of their guys really well, great days....

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
21 February, 2018 12:37
I have a feeling that Richmond and Scottish are tenants of the Athletic ground and not owners of it, so building a stadium there would be nigh on impossible. Also it's too close to Quins.

SE London is a rugby hotbed but has no access to top flight rugby. A SE London / N Kent 'franchise' could tick many boxes.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
21 February, 2018 13:43
I agree that I'm not sure whether they own the Athletic ground or not. I don't think building a stadium there would be any harder than anywhere else in London. Yes it's close to Quins, but there are a *lot* of people in SW London into rugby.

BUt I'd agree that SE London would make more geographic sense. Blackheath seem an obvious option.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 10:35
On a slightly different note - just noticed that tickets are available for Saturday against Sale. The same ticket that i paid £60 for for the Exeter game on 23 March, is £36 against Sale. I really hadn't clocked quite how much differential there is.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 10:46
I had Optimist as I need some extras for the Exe game!!!! Blooming profiteering when we are only going to watch a bunch of nomadic leaders of North American people!!!! Outrageous!!!!

Anyone would think this is an important fixture and they have only been in the Premiership for 8 seasons IIRR.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 11:06
How many do you need BoB? I'm still waiting for a couple of friends to confirm so i may have over-bought. Of course - you'll be sitting near me, so you'd have to promise not to punch me!

Seats are in Thatcher's TSS.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 11:21
Thanks Opti but I have already bought and as they are for at least two Chief's supporters and one neutral sitting not far from me, I will have to reign in any pugilist tendencies I may have.

More importantly, I have a season's bragging rights and a considerable amount of rounds of drinks plus paying for dinner if we loose. Shall we say I have been saving up for what looks like a very expensive day out!!!☹

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 11:44
£60 for the privilege of watching your wallet getting ransacked. That is going to be a tough watch BoB!

Oh well - at least if we don't meet I can avoid finding out that you're a really nice bloke, and i can carry on being anonymously rude to you! (In BB&W we are united!).

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 12:07
Quote:
Optimist

Oh well - at least if we don't meet I can avoid finding out that you're a really nice bloke, and i can carry on being anonymously rude to you! (In BB&W we are united!).

I always imagine that BoB looks a bit like Des Lyneham? OK, just me then.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Aviva Premiership standard
22 February, 2018 14:31
Now I have been insulted! Looking like Des Lynham! Good God he is much older than me, IIRR and far too nice and liked by the ladies. A real smoothie and very cultured and amusing! Complete opposite to me!!!

I am used to rude but fully agree we are united in the BB&W.


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