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nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 09:58
At least in the prem anyway, wonder what BoB feels about that. Also Quins and Irish still winless. Would be interesting to see the table based upon 2018 alone, I guess Sarries would still be top though.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 10:07
No, you are wrong. You must be. Either that or it is a sign - first Welsh earthquakes and now this? Its like something from End Of Days.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 10:30
True, but which team would you rather be right now. Bath or Exeter?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 10:38
Quote:
OutsideBath
True, but which team would you rather be right now. Bath or Exeter?

I posted this as a bit of fun, to try to lift the gloom on a Monday morning, didn't think we would need to have another series of depressing posts about our season, sorry if you didn't catch the attempt at humour!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 10:42
Quote:
nick holder
Quote:
OutsideBath
True, but which team would you rather be right now. Bath or Exeter?

I posted this as a bit of fun, to try to lift the gloom on a Monday morning, didn't think we would need to have another series of depressing posts about our season, sorry if you didn't catch the attempt at humour!

Ah sorry I missed that! I've had a sense of humour failure on rugby matters.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 10:44
Great news, I had forgotten this, but I just checked my Paddy Power app and I'm going to win £130 if Bath win the AP this year!

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
19 February, 2018 11:39
I sincerely hope you win your bet Woodpecker but regrettably doubt if it is going to come to fruition. Here's hoping........

 
MESSAGES->author
shendy (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
20 February, 2018 08:07
Well Exeter are at home to us (Saints) this weekend, so I think that losing streak will end...

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
20 February, 2018 09:16
Personally I hope you do a Worcester' on them Shendy!

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
20 February, 2018 10:56
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Personally I hope you do a Worcester' on them Shendy!


+1

 
MESSAGES->author
shendy (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 08:11
I admit to a certain admiration for Exeter (not shared by all on here I know), but would certainly prefer it if we beat them!
Slightly depressing though that we're reduced to needing to "do a Worcester on them"...

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 08:21
Quote:
shendy
I admit to a certain admiration for Exeter (not shared by all on here I know), but would certainly prefer it if we beat them!
Slightly depressing though that we're reduced to needing to "do a Worcester on them"...

Don’t worry Shendy. I’m sure great days are just around the corner for you again. We’ll probably have to wait until the next millennium (Sm130)

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 09:51
I think most people on here have admiration for Exeter. It's just one person has his head so firmly up their backsides that everyone reacts slightly to that.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 10:47
You can admire what they have achieved and how they are managed without liking them one little bit.
I detest their chant whine, their dressing up and red indians, and dislike their boring style of rugby. I find it impossible to tell what their club colours are. However I admire how good and effective their are at applying their game plan.

BoB certainly doesn't help either!

I also hope Saints turn'em over at the weekend.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 10:58
Yeah, their dressing up is... problematic at best.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:18
its very silly, but cultural aspects aside, I think i can see the logic more than England fans wearing suits of armour

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:24
I think the cultural aspects are rather the problematic point, but really? At least there's a history of English people wearing armour.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:31
Quote:
hasta
I think the cultural aspects are rather the problematic point, but really? At least there's a history of English people wearing armour.

As did the French, perhaps the irish, scots and welsh couldnt afford it?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:34
Well, sure, I agree it's hardly unique to English culture. But it's more relevant and logical than Exeter fans cos-playing war bonnets.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:34
And if Assassins Creed is anything to go by, also the Italians

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:44
Perhaps we could start a new thread on this interesting debate:

The case for Exeter: They are called Chiefs, appaerently they changed it in 1999, but they were called that in the 30s (according to wikipedia) clearly assuming they meant it to refer to native americans at the time, this is quite random, but once they had called themselves that it's quite logical (if pathetic and childish) to dress up like that (also potentially culturally offensive)

The case for England: In the past some (not many people) wore armour, In Europe, plate armour reached its peak in the late 15th and early 16th centuries. I assume that all of the 6 nations wore armour to varying degrees. The logic may be that we beat the French at Agincourt/Crecy etc and we wore armour (even though they did too). Perhaps if the Germans were invited to the 6N England fans would wear 1st and 2nd world war army uniforms.

On reflection, both of them are @#$%& stupid



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 21/02/2018 11:47 by woodpecker.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:53
Quote:
woodpecker
Perhaps we could start a new thread on this interesting debate:
The case for Exeter: They are called Chiefs, appaerently they changed it in 1999, but they were called that in the 30s (according to wikipedia) clearly assuming they meant it to refer to native americans at the time, this is quite random, but once they had called themselves that it's quite logical (if pathetic and childish) to dress up like that (also potentially culturally offensive)

The case for England: In the past some (not many people) wore armour, In Europe, plate armour reached its peak in the late 15th and early 16th centuries. I assume that all of the 6 nations wore armour to varying degrees. The logic may be that we beat the French at Agincourt/Crecy etc and we wore armour (even though they did too). Perhaps if the Germans were invited to the 6N England fans would wear 1st and 2nd world war army uniforms.

On reflection, both of them are @#$%& stupid

Neither of them are as amusing as that chap at the sevens who dressed as a giant avacado with his gut poking through as the stone. Now that took some imagination.

(as an aside, interesting that the swear filter is removed when you reply to a post - wash your mouth out Woodpecker!)

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 11:56
I think you can be too precious about these things. Does anyone get too offended by this? If so they're going to lose their @#$%& over swing low. The thing that "bothers" me is its grown adults acting like children, to which might well reply "If it makes us happy why should you care?" and I'd have to say "fair enough".

What I admire about Exeter is not the success as such, but the clever way they've build a game around solid but largely unremarkable players playing a game where they get the basics right first then build on that. I like that ethos. I find it frustrating we do the opposite it seems, try to implement clever ideas with big players, but forget to catch the ball.

I don't like:

- Bob's (and a few others) starry eyed tributes, though they have been replaced with straight up Bath bashing of late. I don't particularly like this either.
- We've had a tiny minority on here being a bit chippy and I don't get the need for it. You are where you are, enjoy it, no need to have a short man complex about it.
- They are, one of, the tallest poppies.

Of that, one is just Bob really. One is a tiny minority and we've all got them and the last just seems a natural, if unwarranted, reaction to success and it will pass as their success does.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 12:40
The other dressing up I don't get is Sarries fans dressing as crusaders.....

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 12:42
[www.saracens.com]

The first place Saracens could call home was Primrose Hill in 1876 when the Saracens Football Club was founded by the Old Boys of the Philological School in Marylebone (later to become Marylebone Grammar School) and its first fixture was at Primrose Hill playing fields with the red star and crescent worn. Amalgamation with neighbouring club, the Crusaders, occurred in 1878.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 13:29
Quote:
I think you can be too precious about these things. Does anyone get too offended by this? If so they're going to lose their @#$%& over swing low. The thing that "bothers" me is its grown adults acting like children, to which might well reply "If it makes us happy why should you care?" and I'd have to say "fair enough".

Would you say that about people in black-face?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 13:45
A woman from a girl band, I think Little mix got a kicking for having dreadlocks the other day - cultural appropriation

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 13:55
Quote:
woodpecker
A woman from a girl band, I think Little mix got a kicking for having dreadlocks the other day - cultural appropriation

People who do Yoga are also under the cosh. God only knows what the people who don't like that think of the 'naked yoga' planned for Thorney Lakes as reported in the Chron...

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:00
Cultural appropriation is certainly more complicated. Where do you draw the line between it and multicultural integration?

Racist caricature is a bit more clear cut:

https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/UserContent/img/wp-content/uploads/bigchieflv.jpg

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:00
Personally I just wish Bath had some of the consistent success Exeter have enjoyed in recent times. Wish Bath had the team spirit and club ethos led by their astute, analytical coaching, solid financial basis with their Academy continuing to produce a supply of potentially top class players. Look how many are now feeding into the England set up. It hasn't happened over night but seems to get better every year. Why does this not happen at Bath with all our well documented advantages and traditions?

Whatever people think, I want this success at BATH not Exeter but with the right attitudes and people, as an example, they show it can be done and is definitely something to which we should be aspiring. Witnessing further mediocre at best results and middling performance is not right for a club with Bath's resources and history.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:02
Depends.

I -think- morris men still black up. It's not my thing so I'm not sure, but no that doesn't really bother me. Do African tribes that whiten their faces for ritual dances bother you?

If someone blacks up in a deliberate and direct attempt to mock coloured people then that would be distasteful.

I'm sure some people can manage to be offended by middle aged men wearing headdress, but I do struggle to see why?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:05
Quote:
DanWiley
Depends.
I -think- morris men still black up. It's not my thing so I'm not sure, but no that doesn't really bother me. Do African tribes that whiten their faces for ritual dances bother you?

If someone blacks up in a deliberate and direct attempt to mock coloured people then that would be distasteful.

I'm sure some people can manage to be offended by middle aged men wearing headdress, but I do struggle to see why?



Its people of colour not coloured people!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:10
Well it doesn't offend me, but I'm not Native American. The caricature is more problematic.

Some morris men still black up. It doesn't generally go well. While the tradition may have predated the issue, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be empathetic. Again, the caricature of things like gollywogs and the b&w minstrels is the bigger issue here.

White people don't have the same level of historic oppression. There is a difference. You may perceive it as unfair or unequal, but in the grand scale of all that's unfair and unequal between races I think you've got off lightly.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:12
Quote:
DanWiley
Depends.
I -think- morris men still black up. It's not my thing so I'm not sure, but no that doesn't really bother me. Do African tribes that whiten their faces for ritual dances bother you?

If someone blacks up in a deliberate and direct attempt to mock coloured people then that would be distasteful.

I'm sure some people can manage to be offended by middle aged men wearing headdress, but I do struggle to see why?

I think that you need to look up cultural appropriation tbh. Its very different from cultural exchange. Even some of the language that you have used is best consigned to the 1970's

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Yes, people 'blacking up' does offend me too - if the entire west stand decided to paint their faces black for the next game would you feel comfortable with that? I know I wouldn't.

This thread seems to have gone severly off track.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:42
Quote:
woodpecker
A woman from a girl band, I think Little mix got a kicking for having dreadlocks the other day - cultural appropriation

Saw that, how is that offensive, to me that is cultural reinforcement, flattery even. Is it cultural appropriation when black people get their hair straightened??

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:44
No doubt someone somewhere would criticise/rant about Bath fans if we all started to wear Roman soldier uniforms or togas. Should we protest if all the Scottish people wore kilts and carried dirks?

I certainly don't like blatant racism, but do not find dressing up or colouring ones face as either- just a light hearted bringing together of fans to identify with their team or for a particular role . Or would everyone want to stop children dressing up, actors and actresses not being able to wear the requisite clothing or makeup for a part?

Come on folks lighten up a little, people are dying in Syria and Africa and no one is being killed here or those wearing the costumes doing it to be offensive.

I agree Matt this has wandered of the thread subject by some distance!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:49
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
woodpecker
A woman from a girl band, I think Little mix got a kicking for having dreadlocks the other day - cultural appropriation

Saw that, how is that offensive, to me that is cultural reinforcement, flattery even. Is it cultural appropriation when black people get their hair straightened??

No black people cant do this to white people

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:57
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Personally I just wish Bath had some of the consistent success Exeter have enjoyed in recent times. Wish Bath had the team spirit and club ethos led by their astute, analytical coaching, solid financial basis with their Academy continuing to produce a supply of potentially top class players. Look how many are now feeding into the England set up. It hasn't happened over night but seems to get better every year. Why does this not happen at Bath with all our well documented advantages and traditions?
Whatever people think, I want this success at BATH not Exeter but with the right attitudes and people, as an example, they show it can be done and is definitely something to which we should be aspiring. Witnessing further mediocre at best results and middling performance is not right for a club with Bath's resources and history.

Anyone else think BoB has turned into a parody of himself and his entire persona is just one big troll?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:58
"I think that you need to look up cultural appropriation tbh."

Ok, can you explain it and be clear where the problem lies? As I say, I can see the problem with people dressing up to mock a race or in some way celebrate oppression. I don't see any of that in Exeter's habit.

Cultural appropriation seems to go beyond that. I have just skimmed he wikipedia article on it and seems to come down to " violation of the collective intellectual property rights of the originating, minority cultures".

That honestly doesn't fill me with a lot of sympathy.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 14:59
Well... why not try and be sympathetic to a group of people who have been systematically oppressed?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 15:06
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Personally I just wish Bath had some of the consistent success Exeter have enjoyed in recent times. Wish Bath had the team spirit and club ethos led by their astute, analytical coaching, solid financial basis with their Academy continuing to produce a supply of potentially top class players. Look how many are now feeding into the England set up. It hasn't happened over night but seems to get better every year. Why does this not happen at Bath with all our well documented advantages and traditions?
Whatever people think, I want this success at BATH not Exeter but with the right attitudes and people, as an example, they show it can be done and is definitely something to which we should be aspiring. Witnessing further mediocre at best results and middling performance is not right for a club with Bath's resources and history.

Anyone else think BoB has turned into a parody of himself and his entire persona is just one big troll?

I was wondering if he was an AI?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 15:08
I am sympathetic. I just don't see how dressing up as one in, if anything, a positive reflection of their culture is being unsympathetic?

You talk about caricature, but that mascot looks like that to appeal to children, not in any sense to mock Native Americans. I don't know if Sale have a mascot (I think they do), but I'd bet money its doesn't look like a real great white.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 15:21
a. You just compared Native Americans to animals.
b. You might think it's positive, many Native Americans find the 'noble savage' concept extremely outdated and patronising.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 15:23
They do have a mascot Dan and it is a resemblance of a Shark you will no doubt not be surprised to hear? No doubt the League Against Fish Cruelty and Welfare Protection League will be on their case soon!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 15:31
"You just compared Native Americans to animals. "

Hmmm... I said that mascots tend to be caricatured to appeal to children and gave two examples. The thing I was comparing was mascots.

" You might think it's positive, many Native Americans find the 'noble savage' concept extremely outdated and patronising."

What impact is it having on them though?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 15:41
Yes. And those mascots are of a) a person and b) an animal respectively. So you're drawing an equivalence. Caricaturing a person without their permission is rather insulting, no?

I really struggle to see where the problem is here - it seems infinitely easier NOT to dress up like or use mascots as caricatures than to do it. And it seems pretty easy to have a little compassion for people who've had centuries of oppression, theft and murder. So I'd say if they don't like it, maybe we shouldn't do it?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:01
"a) a person and b) an animal respectively. So you're drawing an equivalence. "

So all things that have mascots are in some way equivalent? I appreciate the discussion, but that's not valid argument.

"Caricaturing a person without their permission is rather insulting, no?"

I don't see that it has to be. If the intention is to make that image appealing to, for example, children then I don't see why it is insulting. If that's the case, would you be ok with this aspect then if it were realistic?

"it seems infinitely easier NOT to dress up like or use mascots as caricatures than to do it"

I don't think it is as easy as that. Surely we can't stop at Exeter chiefs? You have to say that any person who reflects a part of a culture that is not there own is doing something distasteful and I just don't think anyone really wants to live in that world.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:12
Well you're not the one being insulted. If you caricature or stereotype people and they say they don't like it, why does your opinion matter more than theirs?

And I would say that yes, having as a mascot a caricature or a group of people who aren't you and have historically been oppressed is pretty distasteful.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:17
Always thought we should have been the Bath Badgers.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:20
Quote:
DanWiley

I don't see that it has to be. If the intention is to make that image appealing to, for example, children then I don't see why it is insulting.

A gollywog cuddly toy or a 'cute' brand logo on the side of Robertsons marmalade jar were both intended to be appealing to children IIRC.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:27
"Well you're not the one being insulted. If you caricature or stereotype people and they say they don't like it, why does your opinion matter more than theirs? "

I don't see how they are being insulted. To comply with such requests does involve turning my culture upside down, so yes, someone needs to make a better case than you have.

"I would say that yes, having as a mascot a caricature or a group of people who aren't you and have historically been oppressed is pretty distasteful."

Why? Should that image of a people die then? Because those people were oppressed, cultural aspects of those people should cease to propagate? Surely the cultural elements that should stop are those of the oppressor? I'm quite happy with the idea of deprecating aspects of Bristol's culture that relate to the slave trade, should we also stop enjoying Caribbean food as a result? Assuming you enjoy Caribbean food, but I love a curry, no doubt we oppressed the Indians and that is something be shamed of and not propagated in this way. but should i stop enjoying a curry?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:33
You have a culture of dressing up as caricatures of other races? And FOOD AND ANIMALS ARE DIFFERENT THAN PEOPLE.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:35
Quote:
DanWiley
"Well you're not the one being insulted. If you caricature or stereotype people and they say they don't like it, why does your opinion matter more than theirs? "
I don't see how they are being insulted. To comply with such requests does involve turning my culture upside down, so yes, someone needs to make a better case than you have.

"I would say that yes, having as a mascot a caricature or a group of people who aren't you and have historically been oppressed is pretty distasteful."

Why? Should that image of a people die then? Because those people were oppressed, cultural aspects of those people should cease to propagate? Surely the cultural elements that should stop are those of the oppressor? I'm quite happy with the idea of deprecating aspects of Bristol's culture that relate to the slave trade, should we also stop enjoying Caribbean food as a result? Assuming you enjoy Caribbean food, but I love a curry, no doubt we oppressed the Indians and that is something be shamed of and not propagated in this way. but should i stop enjoying a curry?


It's very complicated, if you had a 15 year old daughter like I do, you would be well schooled in the arts of PC. I can't say I understand the intricacies of it, but like a dog I know where I'm allowed to go and not go.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:35
Quote:
DanWiley
"Well you're not the one being insulted. If you caricature or stereotype people and they say they don't like it, why does your opinion matter more than theirs? "
I don't see how they are being insulted. To comply with such requests does involve turning my culture upside down, so yes, someone needs to make a better case than you have.

"I would say that yes, having as a mascot a caricature or a group of people who aren't you and have historically been oppressed is pretty distasteful."

Why? Should that image of a people die then? Because those people were oppressed, cultural aspects of those people should cease to propagate? Surely the cultural elements that should stop are those of the oppressor? I'm quite happy with the idea of deprecating aspects of Bristol's culture that relate to the slave trade, should we also stop enjoying Caribbean food as a result? Assuming you enjoy Caribbean food, but I love a curry, no doubt we oppressed the Indians and that is something be shamed of and not propagated in this way. but should i stop enjoying a curry?

That is cultural exchange. Same as drinking an espresso in the morning according to the example here.

[www.theweek.co.uk]

Now if you put on black face paint and a dreadlocked wig before going for your Caribbean meal that would be seen as insulting would it not?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:39
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
DanWiley
"Well you're not the one being insulted. If you caricature or stereotype people and they say they don't like it, why does your opinion matter more than theirs? "
I don't see how they are being insulted. To comply with such requests does involve turning my culture upside down, so yes, someone needs to make a better case than you have.

"I would say that yes, having as a mascot a caricature or a group of people who aren't you and have historically been oppressed is pretty distasteful."

Why? Should that image of a people die then? Because those people were oppressed, cultural aspects of those people should cease to propagate? Surely the cultural elements that should stop are those of the oppressor? I'm quite happy with the idea of deprecating aspects of Bristol's culture that relate to the slave trade, should we also stop enjoying Caribbean food as a result? Assuming you enjoy Caribbean food, but I love a curry, no doubt we oppressed the Indians and that is something be shamed of and not propagated in this way. but should i stop enjoying a curry?

That is cultural exchange. Same as drinking an espresso in the morning according to the example here.

[www.theweek.co.uk]

Now if you put on black face paint and a dreadlocked wig before going for your Caribbean meal that would be seen as insulting would it not?

Now you tell me, I was just heading out of the door to Turtle bay, I'll have to go home and get changed!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:40
"A gollywog cuddly toy or a 'cute' brand logo on the side of Robertsons marmalade jar were both intended to be appealing to children IIRC."

Does that not illustrate the point? A gollywog very much symbolises the link between the oppressor and the person being oppressed. I'm not saying there aren't offensive images. Someone from Devon dressing as Native Indian doesn't seem to link them to their oppressors as far as I can see? Perhaps my understanding of North American history isn't great, but did someone force natives to wear those headdresses? Were they a symbol of their servitude?

I think it is the conflation of these two aspects that is the real problem here.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:45
That article is excellent and sums it up neatly:

Quote:
The problem arises when somebody takes something from another less dominant culture in a way that members of that culture find undesirable and offensive. The point is that the more marginalised group doesn't get a say, while their heritage is deployed by someone in a position of greater privilege – for fun or fashion, perhaps, and out of a place of ignorance rather than knowledge of that culture.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:46
"And FOOD AND ANIMALS ARE DIFFERENT THAN PEOPLE."

So I can enjoy certain aspects of their culture, their food, but not their dress?

"Now if you put on black face paint and a dreadlocked wig before going for your Caribbean meal that would be seen as insulting would it not?"

Would it? If my local were running a sensitive Caribbean night, celebrating their culture, got in a Caribbean caterer to do the food and encouraged people to dress up. Would I expect the caterer to be offended? Only if I did it in some way that was mocking or I intended to offend, but as I said, let's say its been done in a sensitive manner.

I'd find it odd if someone went to a Caribbean resturant dressed up, assuming though that it was senstive I don't see why it is intrinsically offensive. Have you never worn green, or done something, on St Patrick's day? It's not like we haven't oppressed the Irish.

Edit : Dressing up as Oliver Cromwell on St Patrick's day on the other hand I could understand



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/02/2018 16:55 by DanWiley.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:49
"The problem arises when somebody takes something from another less dominant culture in a way that members of that culture find undesirable and offensive. The point is that the more marginalised group doesn't get a say, while their heritage is deployed by someone in a position of greater privilege – for fun or fashion, perhaps, and out of a place of ignorance rather than knowledge of that culture."

No culture gets a say in whether their culture is appropriated, could the USA stop you wearing jeans? The Chinese stop you enjoying Chow mein? Did the Soviets stop you enjoying vodka?

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:54
Quote:
DanWiley
"And FOOD AND ANIMALS ARE DIFFERENT THAN PEOPLE."
So I can enjoy certain aspects of their culture, their food, but not their dress?

"Now if you put on black face paint and a dreadlocked wig before going for your Caribbean meal that would be seen as insulting would it not?"

Would it? If my local were running a sensitive Caribbean night, celebrating their culture, got in a Caribbean caterer to do the food and encouraged people to dress up. Would I expect the caterer to be offended? Only if I did it in some way that was mocking or I intended to offend, but as I said, let's say its been done in a sensitive manner.


Although i can see some logic in your argument and how you can make the case, as per my earlier suggestion, i think its a safer option not to go...

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 16:54
Quote:
DanWiley

No culture gets a say in whether their culture is appropriated, could the USA stop you wearing jeans? The Chinese stop you enjoying Chow mein? Did the Soviets stop you enjoying vodka?

You are missing the definition - those are all examples of cultural exchange. Do people from the USA find it undesirable and offensive for us to wear jeans? Jeremy Clarkson perhaps.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:00
But its nothing to do being subordinate or dominant though. Americans couldn't stop us wearing jeans if they wanted to.

There are plenty of things groups are going to find offensive. If you ban them all we end up with no culture at all. Such prohibition needs more than "some people don't like it" in my opinion.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:04
Again, you're comparing eating food and wearing clothing to dressing up as a caricature/stereotype of an oppressed group of people in a way some of them find offensive.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:05
I reckon the 'less dominant cultures' should spend a bit more effort getting more dominant and a bit less effort getting offended...

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:07
No one's banning anything. Nor are they making it illegal. And it's not 'some people don't like it', it's 'some people who are part of a culture that you are not are are telling you that they don't like something you're doing from a position of ignorance'. And your response is 'I don't care, I do what I like'. Which, again, is legal. It just makes you an unsympathetic tool.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:18
'some people who are part of a culture that you are not are are telling you that they don't like something you're doing from a position of ignorance'.

To me that pretty much says "Some people don't like it." Presumably they wouldn't like it if someone from their culture did it? I don't suppose they'd be any happier of the people in Devon had a PhD in North American history. So the statement becomes:

'some people are are telling you that they don't like something you're doing'.

Now, ok you're saying no one is trying to ban it. Really? I do see people getting upset about this, are they really saying "So long as you realise that we don't like it, and think you're a bit of a tool, carry on."

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:43
Back to the subject, will Exeter win this Saturday or continue their 1918 form to date? I am rooting for the Saints as hopefully continued poor Exe form and probable loss of confidence will help stop us getting a shellacking on 23rd March!!!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:46
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Back to the subject, will Exeter win this Saturday or continue their 1918 form to date? I am rooting for the Saints as hopefully continued poor Exe form and probable loss of confidence will help stop us getting a shellacking on 23rd March!!!

Wow, is that really you BOB, has someone been messing with your programme?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 17:55
People with a PhD in native American history aren't in a position of ignorance and aren't doing it. People in Devon, not part of the culture and absolutely in a position of ignorance, are.

And no, they're not saying 'carry on'. They're saying 'this is offensive, please don't do it'. They're not trying to get you arrested for it, but they're not going to stop saying it's offensive.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 18:04
But I don't see why it is offensive, the caricature isn't (in my opinion) an offensive one. I'll be honest, you've not make it clear to me and I can't find anyone (on the internet) that really has a reason that is satisfying for me. In some ways I find it more offensive trying to stop someone acting in a way when they can't point to a clear reason as to why it is offensive.

An assault to a person's liberty, that I can see as offensive.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 18:25
It is me Woodpecker and has always been my desire for Bath to win at all costs, and I only use Exeter as an example of what can be achieved and continues to be achieved with much less resources and lack of star players than we possess.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 20:02
Presumably the only people who have the right to characterise the Chiefs' use of Native American imagery as offensive, or not, are Native Americans.

Perhaps we should ask them. Oh hold on, someone did.

[www.devonlive.com]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
shendy (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 20:14
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
woodpecker
A woman from a girl band, I think Little mix got a kicking for having dreadlocks the other day - cultural appropriation

People who do Yoga are also under the cosh. God only knows what the people who don't like that think of the 'naked yoga' planned for Thorney Lakes as reported in the Chron...

It's not just naked yoga - it's a naturist camping week, organised by a friend of mine :-)
Very good value if the weather's nice, given all the activities they lay on.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 21:11
Quote:
DanWiley
But I don't see why it is offensive, the caricature isn't (in my opinion) an offensive one. I'll be honest, you've not make it clear to me and I can't find anyone (on the internet) that really has a reason that is satisfying for me. In some ways I find it more offensive trying to stop someone acting in a way when they can't point to a clear reason as to why it is offensive.
An assault to a person's liberty, that I can see as offensive.

Yeah. It's almost like it's not about you.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 21:39
Quote:
shendy
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
woodpecker
A woman from a girl band, I think Little mix got a kicking for having dreadlocks the other day - cultural appropriation

People who do Yoga are also under the cosh. God only knows what the people who don't like that think of the 'naked yoga' planned for Thorney Lakes as reported in the Chron...

It's not just naked yoga - it's a naturist camping week, organised by a friend of mine :-)
Very good value if the weather's nice, given all the activities they lay on.

It would have to be to make up for sitting behind some nude old boy in the ‘downward dog’ position...the naked Morris dancing wouldn’t make up for that, bells and all.

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
21 February, 2018 21:56
I wonder whether, if threatened with being disconnected from the site, BoB would give us a rendition of Daisy, Daisy?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 07:37
"Yeah. It's almost like it's not about you"

It isn't about me. I don't dress like this. But I am being asked to disapprove of someone's actions and to do that I'd like to know what is so offensive about those actions?

That article cites two people, one of whom basically says they don't have a problem with them dressing up like this so long as they cut out the the references to the actions that are more savage like, scalping for example.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 07:54
Adults dressing up as native Indians and wailing incessantly for me is offensive, but is also childish and incredibly annoying.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 07:55
Isn't it less about you being offended (as you are not a native american) and more about you being sensitive to others to whom it IS relevant and who are offended?

For example, a racial (or homophobic, or mockery of someone with a disability) slur may not offend you personally but you may be offended in relation to the fact that it is unacceptable for someone to use that sort of language towards another person. I am quite interested to know your views on the difference between causing offense through language and action. Taking Hastas point, would you only be offended if it was something that personally affected you?

...anyway, back to rugby!

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 08:24
Quote:
DanWiley
"Yeah. It's almost like it's not about you"
It isn't about me. I don't dress like this. But I am being asked to disapprove of someone's actions and to do that I'd like to know what is so offensive about those actions?

That article cites two people, one of whom basically says they don't have a problem with them dressing up like this so long as they cut out the the references to the actions that are more savage like, scalping for example.

That's a tad on the disingenuous side, DW. The other one, y'know - the one who is a member of the Crow Creek Dakota (Sioux) tribe and a former Cultural Ambassador for her Tribal Council, does have a problem with it and suggests that Exeter might want to consult with the Native American community about what constitutes respectful use of aspects of their culture.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 09:07
Dan,

Here's how it works:

If you come from a race, sex, community, tribe, whatever that has suffered from discrimination, persecution, any sort of poor treatment in the past, then you are a bit more sensitive than people who haven't.

So just avoid dressing up as any of them. Or to be safe, anyone who oppressed any of those people too..

In the 70s and 80s it was OK to dress up as Hitler, now it isn't. I think its still Ok to dress as a cowboy, perhaps Exeter could dress as cowboys, for a while at least.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 09:16
Cowboy outfit. Sounds about right.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 09:23
I've never suggested it should be offensive to me. I'm saying if you want me to disprove of these actions you'll have to explain WHY you find it offensive. A group saying " we find this offensive, stop it" isn't sufficient for me to add to that pressure, rather I feel that that group is trying to stop a group behaving in a legal and otherwise inoffensive manner is rather distasteful.

Are we allowed to be offended by this by the way?

[crusaders.co.nz]

Do we have the right to force them to change?

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
22 February, 2018 10:27
B----y good bunch of cowboys you must admit BnGy as they always seem to win, with lots of new young deputies. John Wayne has nothing on them with little need for the cavalry to get them out of a tight spot! Might need a few days in camp at the moment but no doubt will be back on the trail as they head for a stampede to the playoff final again!

Got your tickets yet for the expected battle of the marauding hordes of middle eastern fighters against those guys from the leaders of the First Nations of America? That bunch of stinging yellow and gold insects might spoil their pow wow, but I don't think they will.

 
MESSAGES->author
shendy (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
24 February, 2018 19:42
Almost!

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
24 February, 2018 21:02
I understand that Saints were up by 13 points till about 15 minutes to go when the Chiefs started to play and scored with the very last play of the game. Saints outplayed Exe after half time when they were leading and scored but appears to run out of steam. Saints certainly matched if not imposed themselves physicality on Exeter, similar to what Worcester did and shows how they can be beaten. Exeter were lucky and Saints not quite so.

 
Barnoid
Barnoid (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
24 February, 2018 21:31
Quote:
Bathovalballer
I understand that Saints were up by 13 points till about 15 minutes to go when the Chiefs started to play and scored with the very last play of the game. Saints outplayed Exe after half time when they were leading and scored but appears to run out of steam. Saints certainly matched if not imposed themselves physicality on Exeter, similar to what Worcester did and shows how they can be beaten. Exeter were lucky and Saints not quite so.

That’s great BoB. Thanks. However I think you’ll find most Bath fans DGAF. Chin up though. I hope your boys can step up when they come to the Rec and give us a game.

 
Danchinho
Danchinho (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
26 February, 2018 10:21
Quote:
woodpecker
Dan,
Here's how it works:

If you come from a race, sex, community, tribe, whatever that has suffered from discrimination, persecution, any sort of poor treatment in the past, then you are a bit more sensitive than people who haven't.

So just avoid dressing up as any of them. Or to be safe, anyone who oppressed any of those people too..

In the 70s and 80s it was OK to dress up as Hitler, now it isn't. I think its still Ok to dress as a cowboy, perhaps Exeter could dress as cowboys, for a while at least.

I think you've just about included everyone in your groups there.

 
nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Re: Exeter still to win in 2018 !
26 February, 2018 13:04
and after last weekend's results it is now only quins who have failed to win, and we are up next for them!
However, in spite of our record there I am quietly confident.


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