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MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:35
Social media was made for announcements such as this! The response has been hilarious!

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:37
If trophies were won on social media buzzwords, cliches and talking yourself up, Bris would be perennial winners.

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:44
Just announced on Points West; effective from June 1st

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:44
Lets not get too cocky, we will probably be next.

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:48
As the Bath Mats, Matt??

 
AGS
AGS (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:51
Bath Bombs isn't it?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:51
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
As the Bath Mats, Matt??

I like it Mike!

 
MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:52
Rumours are that Gloucester are also renaming to Gloucester Lions.

This would leave us as the only ones in the Prem without a nickname / characterisation.

Bath
Bears
Chiefs
Falcons
Harlequins
Lions
Saints
Saracens
Sharks
Tigers
Wasps
Warriors

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:53
Lions...Tigers...and Bears?! Lions...Tigers...and Bears? Oh My!

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:54
Someone posted this before (apologies I can't remember who), but it has to be Bath Knights.

 
Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:58
Bath Badgers?

 
MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 13:59
Quote:
BathBurger
Someone posted this before (apologies I can't remember who), but it has to be Bath Knights.

Sorry only just saw it. ( Feel free to delete admins )

 
Beckenham Bandit
Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 14:03
Careful. You might end up as the Bath Centurions.

 
westondave
WestonDave (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 14:04
Apparently having a new training base up the road at Leigh Woods - cos we all know what bears do in the woods!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 14:06
Yes, I have to say that I just googled Bristol Bears and came up with the Bristol Bears Bar which seems like a good friendly place to go for a pre-match drink...

 
MESSAGES->author
Rampant (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 14:06
How about Bath Shoguns?.....(Sm100)

 
Kidney Stone
Kidney Stone (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 15:14
Bath Beavers

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 15:53
Bristol didn't make the right signings last time out. If they do this time, then we should be worried. It might be us doing the bearing (sic).

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 15:54
They already have made them, both on and off the field. Now they just need a few to pad out the squad - if they do that they will be top 6 next year IMO.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 16:09
Quote:
BathMatt53
They already have made them, both on and off the field. Now they just need a few to pad out the squad - if they do that they will be top 6 next year IMO.

Personally I think that because they have the right coaches and have recruited well they will challenge for top 4 next season. We will certainly be the 4th best team in the West.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
spongey (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 16:24

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 16:41
They are missing a letter - looking at most teams these days they should be the Bristol Beards.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 16:52
Quote:

Thanks - now that's going to be on my internet banners and I am going to have to explain that one to the missus!

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 17:02
Do bears...?
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s128/millardm/Bears_zps5iqybdli.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/04/2018 17:07 by Mike the Taxi.

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 17:40

 
Guildford Saint
Guildford Saint (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 17:51
Bath.... Tubs 😂😉

 
dannyf2
dannyf2 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 18:42
Bath Imploders?

Sorry I'm still bitter

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 19:13
Quote:
dannyf2
Bath Imploders?
Sorry I'm still bitter

Bitter... Bath... bath bitter?

Bath Bitter! Good idea! I'll have two.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 19:44
Bristol
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/q_XjlVrrU_A/maxresdefault.jpg
Trains to Bristol
https://i2-prod.bristolpost.co.uk/incoming/article1462564.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Bears-logo-on-white.jpg

 
BathPatriot
BathPatriot (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 20:37
When Bath are playing The Bears next season , letís hope we beat them because as things stand our great club are relegation candidates.

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 21:15
You're taking this thread too seriously, BP!

 
Hoopsy
Hoopsy (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 21:33
Briss fan here ... DONT change your name please ... wtf has happened to our great game !

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 21:38
Surely if youíre going to come up with a cartoon name for your club on the basis that your supporters are so thick that itís the only way they can recognise and identify with your brand, then at least you select a name with two syllables. If we decide we need to compete for the intellectually challenged that we go for the Bath Badgers. Can be chanted posh or with a Somerset brogue and has a friendly vibe. Go Badgers !

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 22:18
Never mind Bris, over on the Reservation Chiefs are worried about losing their name!

 
by
by (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 23:23
Most people think of soft toys, not an apex predator.

Not only that, googling "bristol bears" can easily send you to plenty of gay meetup web pages.

Should have went with Buccaneers given the city's heritage.

Wouldn't mind Bath Gladiators, though I'd rather just stick with Bath.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
16 April, 2018 23:34
Quote:
by
Should have went with Buccaneers given the city's heritage.

Bristolís maritime heritage, especially around the West Indies in the 17th and 18th centuries was rightly avoided I would say.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 01:05
Quote:
by
Most people think of soft toys, not an apex predator.
Not only that, googling "bristol bears" can easily send you to plenty of gay meetup web pages.

Should have went with Buccaneers given the city's heritage.

Wouldn't mind Bath Gladiators, though I'd rather just stick with Bath.

"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?". I can foresee some teething troubles with that one...although it does give us the Bruce Craig Amphitheatre (we all know it'll end up being the Rec) and the Legion for the fans (my name is legion for we are many). So many inconsistent cultural references. It should go down a storm with our new insurance-based overlords.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17/04/2018 03:02 by joethefanatic.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 08:32
Quote:
Boldangrey
Never mind Bris, over on the Reservation Chiefs are worried about losing their name!

So they should. Nothing to do with Exeter and the chanting is totally insulting to the American indigenous people for whom it actually means something.

 
StGonne
StGonne (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 10:48
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
Boldangrey
Never mind Bris, over on the Reservation Chiefs are worried about losing their name!

So they should. Nothing to do with Exeter and the chanting is totally insulting to the American indigenous people for whom it actually means something.

Can you find a single source of a Native American expressing offence over Exeter Chiefs? Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.

 
MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 10:55
RugbyInsideLine now reporting we are resisting serious pressure to rebrand ourselves as well - Pressure all coming from the new American sponsors.

Yesterday was fun, today not so much! Ha.

Suppose if we have to then it will need to be Roman themed - Bath... Romans, Centurions, Gladiators, Legion?...

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 11:38
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
Boldangrey
Never mind Bris, over on the Reservation Chiefs are worried about losing their name!

So they should. Nothing to do with Exeter and the chanting is totally insulting to the American indigenous people for whom it actually means something.

Can you find a single source of a Native American expressing offence over Exeter Chiefs? Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.

We discussed this subject to death on this board fairly recently, but Dr Stephanie Pratt, who lives near Exeter is a member of the Crow Creek Dakota (Sioux) tribe and a former Cultural Ambassador for her Tribal Council and spoke out a couple of years ago with Rachel Herrmann. So, to answer your question, Dr Stephanie Pratt is a single source of a Native American expressing offence over Exeter Chiefs.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 11:41
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
Boldangrey
Never mind Bris, over on the Reservation Chiefs are worried about losing their name!

So they should. Nothing to do with Exeter and the chanting is totally insulting to the American indigenous people for whom it actually means something.

Can you find a single source of a Native American expressing offence over Exeter Chiefs? Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
Maybe not specifically for Exeter but lots for US teams the major ones have dropped the braves chiefs logos and branding in favour of something more appropriate. Personally I find the dressing up as ďIndiansĒ juvenile and the chant tiresome. It has no history with Exeter and they should rebrand.

 
bathwickboy
bathwickboy (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 11:47
What about 'Come on you Bath Dysons'. It has a certain 'je ne sais quoi' about it n'est-ce pas?

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 12:11
[quote BathSalmon]Rumours are that Gloucester are also renaming to Gloucester Lions.

Surely there is only one Gloucester name possible?

"Old Spots".


PG



P G Tips



Paul Grant: my adopted Player, 2017-18.

 
merc
merc (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 13:01
Carrying on the Dyson theme, how about suckers

It's got a ring to it....Bath Suckers

Merc

 
BBandW
BBandW (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 13:29
Quote:
bathwickboy
What about 'Come on you Bath Dysons'. It has a certain 'je ne sais quoi' about it n'est-ce pas?

That's a vacuous idea.

 
Lee Bideaux
Armchair Fan (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 13:41
Prem (current & promoted next season) monikers, as rated for plausibility by me

Top tier
Leicester Tigers - that has been their nickname since Moses was a lad. Sighting os actual tigers in Charnwood Forest so far unconfirmed.
Northampton Saints - founded by a Reverend
Newcastle Falcons - nailed-on certainty that a falcon of some variety is smashing a dozy pigeon in the Toon as we speak

Middle Tier
Worcester Warriors - alliterative, eminently chant-able but nothing ties the concept of a Warrior to Worcester. (Worcester Porcelains might have been more geographically appropriate but less fitting for rugby.)
Sale Sharks no evidence of sharks making it up[ the Manchester Ship Canal. Plus points for the kit they had yonks back with the pattern of shark gill slits.
Bristol Bears I kinda assumed it was a heraldic thing, but the coat of arms has unicorns. Oddly Bath coat of arms has a bear. Bears of course associated with the county of Warwickshire. Better: Bristol Brunels, excellent branding opportunities for makers of stovepipe hats.

Bottom Tier
Exeter Chiefs - hahahahaha, are you kidding me? Are they Choctaw? Shawnee? Cree? Better: literally anything.

(Other clubs not rated as they do not fit the place name + suffix template.)



_____________________________________________________

I like turtles.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 13:48
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
Boldangrey
Never mind Bris, over on the Reservation Chiefs are worried about losing their name!

So they should. Nothing to do with Exeter and the chanting is totally insulting to the American indigenous people for whom it actually means something.

Can you find a single source of a Native American expressing offence over Exeter Chiefs? Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
Yes, we clearly can. Perhaps the Exeter Ostriches is more appropriate?

 
alibev
alibev (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 14:05
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
bathwickboy
What about 'Come on you Bath Dysons'. It has a certain 'je ne sais quoi' about it n'est-ce pas?

That's a vacuous idea.

'That sucks'shirley?

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 14:15
[quote Armchair Fan][u]


[b]Leicester Tigers
- that has been their nickname since Moses was a lad. Sighting os actual tigers in Charnwood Forest so far unconfirmed.

It stems from the cap badge of the Leicestershire Regiment (nicknamed "The Tigers") as seen here:

[en.wikipedia.org]

PG



P G Tips



Paul Grant: my adopted Player, 2017-18.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 16:28
Quote:
StGonne
Can you find a single source of a Native American expressing offence over Exeter Chiefs? Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
1. Yes, several. It gets discussed most years.
2. Because people insist on being offensive. It's far more than "tiring"



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
StGonne
StGonne (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 19:15
Should Saracens change their name too then? After all itís an outdated term for a Muslim? Surely thatís just as offensive as Chiefs?

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 19:24
For me itís not the name itís the misappropriation of traditional dress and song. If the Saracens drop the fez wearing and the chiefs the clothes and chanting then chiefs becomes those in charge and Saracens an historical term. Much as Romans.. Bath Romans if we must but PLEASE no togas.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
17 April, 2018 20:04
Quote:
StGonne
Should Saracens change their name too then? After all itís an outdated term for a Muslim? Surely thatís just as offensive as Chiefs?
Ah, the classic deflection technique! Coupled with a ĎPC gone madí and ĎI donít see what the problem isí stance = you are a gammon. StGoAway!

 
StGonne
StGonne (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 09:13
Quote:
Rawce
Quote:
StGonne
Should Saracens change their name too then? After all itís an outdated term for a Muslim? Surely thatís just as offensive as Chiefs?
Ah, the classic deflection technique! Coupled with a ĎPC gone madí and ĎI donít see what the problem isí stance = you are a gammon. StGoAway!

The classic deflection technique being pointing out that Saracens are called Saracens and wear the fez and Chiefs are called Chiefs and wear tribal headgear.

You can tell me to go away for having a different viewpoint to you but I was just debating that if we get rid of Chiefs and the headgear, then we must get rid of Saracens and the headgear as TG Kesmo has said above.

 
MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 09:34
Chief in peace

While there is very little Native American link to Devon I would add that it is a very long running tradition in Devon among the Rugby Clubs to name the senior adult teams with a nickname (As is common at all Rugby clubs across the country) However in Devon all the First XV teams all nicknamed "Chiefs" and while the 2nd and 3rd XVs differ from club to club every first XV is always nicknamed Chiefs. This goes back long before re-branding from Exeter Rugby Club to Exeter Chiefs.

So to suggest there is no History or Tradition there isn't quite true.

Furthermore as I have said on our own forum there is somethings at Sandy Park that could do with going away and never coming back, Exeter could likely keep the branding if these thing went away and there likely would not be much of an issue as it would have taken away their ammo. Dr Pratt never objected to the use of the name itself and only the cultural appropriation in which I do in part agree with her. Lose the headdresses and the mascot and there is very little left to object to. As those in the Indian community don't really care too much about the Chiefs name, Its the Redskins name they care about.

Whenever I hear the name Stephanie Pratt all I can think of is a story told by the producer of Father Ted. In which he went on a TV show to defend the show not being a fair representation of Ireland and Irish people and the person claiming this had a thick Mancunian accent and had never even been to Ireland.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 10:15
Quote:
StGonne
The classic deflection technique being pointing out that Saracens are called Saracens and wear the fez and Chiefs are called Chiefs and wear tribal headgear.
You can tell me to go away for having a different viewpoint to you but I was just debating that if we get rid of Chiefs and the headgear, then we must get rid of Saracens and the headgear as TG Kesmo has said above.
Youíve not attempted to answer any of the valid concerns raised, just deflect. Get your own house in order then you can go pointing the finger elsewhere.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 10:21
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Whenever I hear the name Stephanie Pratt all I can think of is a story told by the producer of Father Ted. In which he went on a TV show to defend the show not being a fair representation of Ireland and Irish people and the person claiming this had a thick Mancunian accent and had never even been to Ireland.
All reasonable thoughts, thanks. Until this bit. Calling into question Dr Prattís heritage is a bit of a low blow imo.

 
StGonne
StGonne (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 11:02
Quote:
Rawce
Quote:
StGonne
The classic deflection technique being pointing out that Saracens are called Saracens and wear the fez and Chiefs are called Chiefs and wear tribal headgear.
You can tell me to go away for having a different viewpoint to you but I was just debating that if we get rid of Chiefs and the headgear, then we must get rid of Saracens and the headgear as TG Kesmo has said above.
Youíve not attempted to answer any of the valid concerns raised, just deflect. Get your own house in order then you can go pointing the finger elsewhere.

not really sure what you mean re my house not being in order but i am trying to answer the 'points' so that you can answer mine. 'Redskins' is an offensive term as it literally refers to the colour of native American's skin and so I can understand it. It just annoys me that people pretend to be experts on Native Americans. If a group of native Americans (i.e more than one) comes out and argues that the headgear or the chanting is specifically causing offence then i'd be willing to change my opinion. Until then all we have is one academic from Southampton and some people on the internet who tell me i'm deflecting when i point out that their criticism applies to more than one premiership club.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 11:05
Quote:
StGonne
Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.

Agreed. Offense and outrage culture is ridiculous these days.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 11:18
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
StGonne
Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
Agreed. Offense and outrage culture is ridiculous these days.

It would be absolutely wonderful to go through life never having anything offensive said to you and to be so insular that you never feel the need to speak up in support for others.
Or maybe your just outraged about outrage otherwise you would just ignore it.

 
StGonne
StGonne (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 11:28
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
StGonne
Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
Agreed. Offense and outrage culture is ridiculous these days.

It would be absolutely wonderful to go through life never having anything offensive said to you and to be so insular that you never feel the need to speak up in support for others.
Or maybe your just outraged about outrage otherwise you would just ignore it.

So arguing that Exeter Chiefs is not offensive now means that I have never been offended and I have never spoken up in support of others. I really do struggle with the mental gymnastics sometimes.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 11:34
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
StGonne
Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
Agreed. Offense and outrage culture is ridiculous these days.

It would be absolutely wonderful to go through life never having anything offensive said to you and to be so insular that you never feel the need to speak up in support for others.
Or maybe your just outraged about outrage otherwise you would just ignore it.

So arguing that Exeter Chiefs is not offensive now means that I have never been offended and I have never spoken up in support of others. I really do struggle with the mental gymnastics sometimes.

Just saying that you canít group all items together and call it a culture personally I am not offended by Many things others get worked up about. It is an individuals right to choose. If you donít agree it is your right to say so or just ignore. I think itís called freedom of speech.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 11:54
'Chiefs' is not offensive. Wearing war bonnets and (particularly) having caricature mascots is.

As I recall, all Dr Pratt asked was for Exeter to actually speak to some native Americans about the issue. Seems like a pretty reasonable, non-outraged request. The bigger outrage seems to be coming from a bunch of privileged people who resent being asked to consider that playing dress-up could be offensive to the people you're dressing up as.

And, 'Sir! Sir! But they're doing it too Sir!' is not a compelling rejoinder.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 12:04
Quote:
StGonne
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
StGonne
Why does everything have to be offensive now? it's tiring.
Agreed. Offense and outrage culture is ridiculous these days.

It would be absolutely wonderful to go through life never having anything offensive said to you and to be so insular that you never feel the need to speak up in support for others.
Or maybe your just outraged about outrage otherwise you would just ignore it.

So arguing that Exeter Chiefs is not offensive now means that I have never been offended and I have never spoken up in support of others. I really do struggle with the mental gymnastics sometimes.

Can I clarify if you have native american heritage? I think that would put your point in context:

- If you you have native american heritage but are not offended by the war paint, head-dress and tomahawk waving side of things then you are making a very interesting point about your not feeling culturally appropriated;
- if you don't have native american heritage but just don't feel offended by it, it clearly isn't so relevant to your cultural history that you would be*.

(*Of course it is fairly typical human behaviour to feel uncomfortable if you are involved in something which makes others uncomfortable or offends them).

We could come up with plenty of extreme examples of names that a club could use and how people could dress up in support of that which I'm sure that you would agree are offensive - a rugby forum isn't really the place for that obviously but I'm sure you can think of a few.

If the Exeter Chiefs still have the same branding and the supporters are still wearing war paint, head-dress and waving tomahawks in 5-10 years I will be astounded...

 
StGonne
StGonne (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 12:09
Quote:
hasta
'Chiefs' is not offensive. Wearing war bonnets and (particularly) having caricature mascots is.
As I recall, all Dr Pratt asked was for Exeter to actually speak to some native Americans about the issue. Seems like a pretty reasonable, non-outraged request. The bigger outrage seems to be coming from a bunch of privileged people who resent being asked to consider that playing dress-up could be offensive to the people you're dressing up as.

And, 'Sir! Sir! But they're doing it too Sir!' is not a compelling rejoinder.

I clearly stated above that should a group of Native Americans actually break down what is and isn't offensive about Exeter Chiefs I would be more than willing to reconsider. I'm not an Exeter Chiefs fan so i'm not pointing the finger, just pointing out that in the interest of consistency, criticism levelled at Exeter must be directed towards Saracens too.

Alternatively, we could all just leave this here and accept that the right to offend comes hand in hand with the right to be offended.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 12:14

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 16:35
I feel that too much is made of this. I can't quite place my finger on what is actually offensive and I've have only heard from one person claiming to be actually offended by Exeter specifically and she seems to end at "it just is". So what do they do that's so bad?

Calling themselves Chiefs seems broadly agreed, in itself, to be acceptable. After all the name Chiefs can equally be applied to any number of cultures and I guess is Latin in origin.

Clearly Exeter use Native American imagery, but it feels to me that had they done so in a respectful way I can't really see the offence?

So how are they being disrespectful? A child friendly mascot? All teams do this and I genuinely can see no intended mocking or disrespect in the Exeter use of one. Do you feel disrespected by this guy?

[photosportnz.photoshelter.com]

He's representative of a fair abhorrent period of history, the repercussions of which are still being felt.

The general Exeter logo seems pretty respectful.

The headdresses? Ok they are cheap replicas, but not inherently mocking. It doesn't strike me as that offensive. I don't think anyone wearing one has the intention to make a comment on a native american. Or are we saying that just wearing another cultures clothes is offensive? Where does that end?

The drums? Intended to excite the crowd and enthuse their team. Disrespectful? Seems a respectful use if anything. Hardly unique in any case.

The hollering? I can see that there might be implications associated with this, but are you really saying this is all they'd need to stop and it would be fine?

What else is there? it feels like a bit of education and sensitivity, which I don't think Exeter particularly lack, and there really isn't a problem here. Either that or no one can use aspects any other culture for the risk of offence and given the multicultural world we live in that just does hold water. You're probably doing something now that leans on some other culture.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 16:41
Read the link above. You might think it's done in a respectful way, but it's not really your right to say that as it's not your culture.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 17:06
I think that the issue was that it (i.e. the tomahawk waving etc.) plays on the outdated racial / cultural stereotype. 21st century Native Americans don't go around scalping people.

If I were Exeter I would welcome the feedback from the Native American organisation who offered it - the outcome would be:

1) they say, 'we don't really care' and the issue goes to bed;
2) they say, 'happy with the name as its really cool, but leave out the caricature mascot please' and its easily sorted and with their blessing;
3) they say 'its really offensive' in which case I'm sure the Club would want to change it anyway.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 17:15
Perhaps we need to suggest alternative names for Exeter now then (oh no I hear you say).

Exeter Chefs
Exeter Sandy Toes
Exeter Services

Or just Exeter Champions.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 17:35
"You might think it's done in a respectful way, but it's not really your right to say that as it's not your culture."

Why not? I think it is my right to decide whether I find someone else's actions offensive. I literally can't sanction all the ideas that someone finds offensive because I'd quickly find myself contradicting myself.

In this case, I find myself thinking that freedom of expression trumps some people a long way away (possibly) being offended by Exeter's actions because I can't see where the offence comes from and I don't see the harm.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 17:37
Well, aren't you just just a pretty picture of privilege.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 17:58
Thanks to BathMatt and Hasta for having the energy I couldnít bother to muster. I owe you both a pint.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 18:13
DW when it would be so easy to clarify the Ďpossiblyí bit - with a phone call, email or meeting it just seems silly that they havenít. As for freedom of expression (and choice) well that covers a lot of extremely offensive things that nobody on this board would condone Iím sure.

(P.s. make mine a pint of 40 year old single malt mate please)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/04/2018 18:17 by BathMatt53.

 
MESSAGES->author

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 19:47
Sorry but Bath Dysons sucks!!!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 20:46
"Well, aren't you just just a pretty picture of privilege."

Well, as a white make aged 20-40 yes, but I don't see the point you are making? It seems a very poor arguement.

"DW when it would be so easy to clarify the Ďpossiblyí bit - with a phone call, email or meeting it just seems silly that they havenít."

Maybe they have. The article hasta cites quotes a source saying if done respectfully they don't have a problem with this.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 20:48
Quote:
3 wheels on my wagon
Sorry but Bath Dysons sucks!!!

But if only they could clean up the Premiership!

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
18 April, 2018 21:16
One thing I love about PC gone mad is the fact that white blokes with dreadlocks are now racist - good serves them right

 
MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 10:01
Quote:
Rawce
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Whenever I hear the name Stephanie Pratt all I can think of is a story told by the producer of Father Ted. In which he went on a TV show to defend the show not being a fair representation of Ireland and Irish people and the person claiming this had a thick Mancunian accent and had never even been to Ireland.
All reasonable thoughts, thanks. Until this bit. Calling into question Dr Prattís heritage is a bit of a low blow imo.

I wasn't questioning her heritage, In this discussion I use as an example the person with the thick Mancunian accent who spoke out against Father Ted was in fact a second generation Irish descendant who just didn't really know how to laugh at themselves and was clinging on to whatever cultural heritage they had left. I' am not questioning Dr Pratt's ancestry by raising this point, I' am simply pointing out that Dr Pratt is removed from Indian culture living here in the UK and while she maybe descended from Indian ancestry, She is only an ancestor of that culture who uses that link to highlight her own work, Sometimes good and sometimes not. But that said one voice is by no means a majority so the word of one person is not really one that should be taken seriously in the greater discussion.

 
MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 10:07
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
3 wheels on my wagon
Sorry but Bath Dysons sucks!!!

But if only they could clean up the Premiership!

There a somethings that even a Dyson cannot clean up...

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 10:54
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
Rawce
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Whenever I hear the name Stephanie Pratt all I can think of is a story told by the producer of Father Ted. In which he went on a TV show to defend the show not being a fair representation of Ireland and Irish people and the person claiming this had a thick Mancunian accent and had never even been to Ireland.
All reasonable thoughts, thanks. Until this bit. Calling into question Dr Prattís heritage is a bit of a low blow imo.

I wasn't questioning her heritage, In this discussion I use as an example the person with the thick Mancunian accent who spoke out against Father Ted was in fact a second generation Irish descendant who just didn't really know how to laugh at themselves and was clinging on to whatever cultural heritage they had left. I' am not questioning Dr Pratt's ancestry by raising this point, I' am simply pointing out that Dr Pratt is removed from Indian culture living here in the UK and while she maybe descended from Indian ancestry, She is only an ancestor of that culture who uses that link to highlight her own work, Sometimes good and sometimes not. But that said one voice is by no means a majority so the word of one person is not really one that should be taken seriously in the greater discussion.

Are you aware that there have been any discussions between the club and the relevant groups? If not, surely it would be an idea to close off the debate if nothing else?

Rugby Inside Line (yes, them again) are reporting that Bath is actually being put under some pressure to add a name / word but the Club is resisting it.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 11:28
" If not, surely it would be an idea to close off the debate if nothing else? "

What do you mean? I can't think of many occasions where stopping people discussing a point is the way to go.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 11:36
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
Rawce
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Whenever I hear the name Stephanie Pratt all I can think of is a story told by the producer of Father Ted. In which he went on a TV show to defend the show not being a fair representation of Ireland and Irish people and the person claiming this had a thick Mancunian accent and had never even been to Ireland.
All reasonable thoughts, thanks. Until this bit. Calling into question Dr Prattís heritage is a bit of a low blow imo.

I wasn't questioning her heritage, In this discussion I use as an example the person with the thick Mancunian accent who spoke out against Father Ted was in fact a second generation Irish descendant who just didn't really know how to laugh at themselves and was clinging on to whatever cultural heritage they had left. I' am not questioning Dr Pratt's ancestry by raising this point, I' am simply pointing out that Dr Pratt is removed from Indian culture living here in the UK and while she maybe descended from Indian ancestry, She is only an ancestor of that culture who uses that link to highlight her own work, Sometimes good and sometimes not. But that said one voice is by no means a majority so the word of one person is not really one that should be taken seriously in the greater discussion.

You're tying yourself up in incredible knots just to avoid confronting the fact that this is demonstrably offensive to many native Americans - and there are multiple examples of this in the US. The fact that it's only one person in Devon is much more indicative of the population of people with native American ancestry in Devon than the fact that it's not offensive (which is also another reason that makes it ridiculous that you appropriate this culture that you have no link to).

Dr Pratt asked Exeter rugby club to consult with native Americans. It's not an unreasonable request.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 11:51
Quote:
DanWiley
" If not, surely it would be an idea to close off the debate if nothing else? "
What do you mean? I can't think of many occasions where stopping people discussing a point is the way to go.

I mean in relation to my post of 18th April. If the Native American groups provided an answer there couldn't be a debate as to whether they found it offensive (or not). They either would, wouldn't or would find bits offensive and the rest (like the name) not so much. There would be certainty in relation to their views.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2018 12:01 by BathMatt53.

 
MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 13:40
Quote:
hasta
You're tying yourself up in incredible knots just to avoid confronting the fact that this is demonstrably offensive to many native Americans - and there are multiple examples of this in the US. The fact that it's only one person in Devon is much more indicative of the population of people with native American ancestry in Devon than the fact that it's not offensive (which is also another reason that makes it ridiculous that you appropriate this culture that you have no link to).

Would you care to scroll up and see what I actually wrote in my original post, Or do you want me to quote it?

Quote:
Tom A Hawk
as I have said on our own forum there is somethings at Sandy Park that could do with going away and never coming back, Exeter could likely keep the branding if these thing went away and there likely would not be much of an issue as it would have taken away their ammo. Dr Pratt never objected to the use of the name itself and only the cultural appropriation in which I do in part agree with her. Lose the headdresses and the mascot and there is very little left to object to. As those in the Indian community don't really care too much about the Chiefs name, Its the Redskins name they care about.

My opinion on Dr Pratt is purely that she is simply one voice in the great debate here, Taking only one voice as a sole arbiter on any subject is a dangerous perspective. You need the perspective of the broader field rather than the one or two on the opposing sides was the point I was trying to make. I agree that Chiefs need to have a discussion about this subject and that there are some potentially racist things that need to be addressed, Something which I did acknowledge in my original post...

Furthermore Iam not aware of the Chiefs having any consultation with any native American groups, However I am also not an employee of Exeter Rugby Club so would not be aware of any such meetings unless the club themselves announced such a conversation had taken place. That said however I am aware that when Sandy Park was originally opened a couple of Native Indian groups where invited to come over to attend the opening and tour of the ground and facilities, Some of which accepted the offer so there clearly is a channel of communication there for such a conversation.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 13:42
Thanks TaH

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 14:08
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
hasta
You're tying yourself up in incredible knots just to avoid confronting the fact that this is demonstrably offensive to many native Americans - and there are multiple examples of this in the US. The fact that it's only one person in Devon is much more indicative of the population of people with native American ancestry in Devon than the fact that it's not offensive (which is also another reason that makes it ridiculous that you appropriate this culture that you have no link to).

Would you care to scroll up and see what I actually wrote in my original post, Or do you want me to quote it?

Quote:
Tom A Hawk
as I have said on our own forum there is somethings at Sandy Park that could do with going away and never coming back, Exeter could likely keep the branding if these thing went away and there likely would not be much of an issue as it would have taken away their ammo. Dr Pratt never objected to the use of the name itself and only the cultural appropriation in which I do in part agree with her. Lose the headdresses and the mascot and there is very little left to object to. As those in the Indian community don't really care too much about the Chiefs name, Its the Redskins name they care about.

My opinion on Dr Pratt is purely that she is simply one voice in the great debate here, Taking only one voice as a sole arbiter on any subject is a dangerous perspective. You need the perspective of the broader field rather than the one or two on the opposing sides was the point I was trying to make. I agree that Chiefs need to have a discussion about this subject and that there are some potentially racist things that need to be addressed, Something which I did acknowledge in my original post...

Furthermore Iam not aware of the Chiefs having any consultation with any native American groups, However I am also not an employee of Exeter Rugby Club so would not be aware of any such meetings unless the club themselves announced such a conversation had taken place. That said however I am aware that when Sandy Park was originally opened a couple of Native Indian groups where invited to come over to attend the opening and tour of the ground and facilities, Some of which accepted the offer so there clearly is a channel of communication there for such a conversation.

Yeah your quoted paragraph is fine, but you immediately then undermined and belittled her experience and opinion. While one random person's opinion might not mean anything her job title is:

Quote:
Cultural Affairs Ambassador for the Crow Creek Dakota Tribal Council

It seems reasonable to expect her to speak on the matter and her opinion to carry weight - or at least be worthy of consideration. And given the comparative lack of Native American (note, not Native Indian) population in Devon that might be worth more than just saying 'oh it's just one person, she's far removed, it's like that Fr Ted sketch'.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 14:20
I just looked her up, is she having a laugh, I've never seen any Exeter supporters dressed up like this:


[www.linkedin.com]



Has she even watched The Lone Ranger?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2018 14:20 by woodpecker.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 14:23
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
I wasn't questioning her heritage, In this discussion I use as an example the person with the thick Mancunian accent who spoke out against Father Ted was in fact a second generation Irish descendant who just didn't really know how to laugh at themselves and was clinging on to whatever cultural heritage they had left. I' am not questioning Dr Pratt's ancestry by raising this point, I' am simply pointing out that Dr Pratt is removed from Indian culture living here in the UK and while she maybe descended from Indian ancestry, She is only an ancestor of that culture who uses that link to highlight her own work, Sometimes good and sometimes not. But that said one voice is by no means a majority so the word of one person is not really one that should be taken seriously in the greater discussion.
But you are questioning her heritage. Sorry, but I don't think you get to be the arbiter of what someone's heritage means to them or how legitimate you deem it to be. Same for religion, sexuality, anything else that makes us who we are. That seems a bit of a whitewashed view and one of my main sticking points with the whole "Britishness" debate - we're a very mongrel nation that seems to want to ignore that when it suits us.

She may only be a single voice in direct relation to Exeter Chiefs, but there is massive precedence in the US that all Exeter fans seem to want to ignore, see the links provided above, not just one voice. Hence my suggestion you rebrand at Exeter Ostriches.

 
MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 15:22
Iam not questioning her heritage, She is of Native American ancestry, I accept and acknowledge that to the fullest and don't deny that and as I said I do in part agree with her statements, HOWEVER and while one of these is an extreme example they illustrate my point. Do we listen to the words of Anjem Choudary as a voice for all Muslims? Of course not... That would be silly, Do we listen to me as the words and thoughts of all Exeter Fans? Again no, That would be silly..

The point Iam trying to explain here is that we simply cannot listern to one voice on this matter, And before anyone accuses me of this, Iam not suggesting that Dr Pratts views are extreme like Choudary's in any way. Iam simply noting that it needs to be viewed from a broader perspective of more than one voice regardless of that persons title or academic position is. My point with the father ted analogy was simply to point out that one persons thoughts don't always represent the overall opinion and the voice of one is going to make very little differnce to the overall opinion in this debate, Even though I do agree in part with Dr Pratt and have said the Chiefs can still keep the branding if the fans lose the headdresses and mascot, But it needs more within the community to stand up and condemn it in order for change to occur. One voice is too easily cast aside, It means little in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:
Cultural Affairs Ambassador for the Crow Creek Dakota Tribal Council

So why have the whole council not expressed a view on the matter or voiced their views?

Also I have to ask though? Is it just Exeter fans who are guilty of Cultural appropriation?
I say no and can and will find plenty of examples of other fans guilty of the same crime....

https://i.gyazo.com/5c504943b84f8f1e703e77de9d78a958.png


But alas, Iam simply one voice so what weight do my words carry....

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 15:39
Well as Dr Stephanie Pratt once said: How might you feel if your culture/people were reduced to the cliche of a military pith helmet? Or a Mary Poppins chimney sweep?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 15:46
1. Other people doing bad things doesn't excuse you doing them.
2. Your own username doesn't help you here.
3. You have drawn equivalences to her with extremists and farces - clearly trying to diminish her point.
4. She a cultural ambassador, it's her job to speak on behalf of the council
5. You referred to native Americans multiple times as Indians/native Indians. Dude.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 16:20
Quote:
hasta

5. You referred to native Americans multiple times as Indians/native Indians. Dude.

Interestingly enough:

[www.ncai.org]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 16:38
Wiki

Quote:
the term "Indian" is generally considered offensive when used by non-Natives with the term First Nations being preferred for peoples covered by the Indian Act and Aboriginal or Indigenous peoples preferred for Native peoples generally.

 
DaveOfTrow
GrumpyDave (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 16:41
A couple of years ago I couldnt have given a toss about the injun stuff - just a bit of fun, no? - but then read and viewed a couple of things that has cemented in my mind the ugly reality that the Chief's imagery is a based on a Holywood air brushing/reinvention of a dark and sordid tale of rape, pillage, slaughter and ethnic cleansing on a scale that a Serbian war criminal would be proud of. Once known, cannot be unknown.

Its not even as if this is ancient history a la Saracens for example; the squalor of the reservations is part of the here and now.

I guess Exeter is far eough away that they dont need to worry about it and the Native Americans probably dont have what goes on in Devon uppermost in their minds, but now I have that association in my mind I cant look at that stuff without the 90% alcoholics on the Res coming to mind.

If Exeter folks are happy with it then good for them, but now educated I find it about as tasteful as dubbing Brissle (or indeed ourselves) "The Slavers" in tribute to the local links with that illustrious trade and having the team trot out to the strains of "Old Man River" at the start of each game.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 16:47
6. If something is fundamentally wrong, the number speaking out is immaterial. It's a very Imperialistic stance to discount dissent in this way. The number speaking out generally relates to awareness and collective responses. Lots of children dying due to conflict in Syria, Yemen, Palestine, etc. generates headlines and international condemnation. A single child dying in the same circumstances is still wrong, the world probably wouldn't hear about it.
7. Even if number of voices were a means of weighing a cause's credibility, you are still, even after being repeatedly reminded above, ignoring the voices of those in the States who the issue also affects (arguably more acutely as Grumpy Dave points out, but I'm not going to make that call).
8. You are saying that Dr. Pratt's opinion is of lesser value because she is x generations removed. That is not up to you to decide, only really Dr. Pratt.

So, about Swing Low Sweet Chariot...

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 17:18

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 19:04
Quote:
BathMatt53
Rugby Inside Line (yes, them again) are reporting that Bath is actually being put under some pressure to add a name / word but the Club is resisting it.

This is very interesting but I think we are missing a trick.

Arlo White is the (English) lead commentator here in the US for the Premier League. At the start, he asked NBC "how do you want me to commentate?" and NBC said "we want authenticity".

So, for the big games, we get White, Lee Dixon and Graham Le Saux ripping the p1ss out of each other while being extremely good at the match commentary. The terminology is almost all British and the US viewers are expected to learn the history and understand the technicalities. And they do.

All this would be instantly familiar to any Brit but is, dare I say it, a step up from the usual Brit commentary (which we get for the smaller games).

The point here is that rugby is deeply traditional with myriad eccentricities. And that is what the Yanks love. If you give them the Bears and Lions it's basically NFL without the armour. If you give them letters on shirts, no 13 shirt and the rag doll game, it's an entirely new sport for them with new allegiances to be forged.

As far as I can tell, there are more Arsenal fans in Honolulu than there are in North London and, with a little intelligence, the same could be true for Bath FC. There's already a Honolulu Harlequins RFC!



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2018 19:06 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Bristol ... Bears?
20 April, 2018 23:54
Quote:
GrumpyDave
A couple of years ago I couldnt have given a toss about the injun stuff - just a bit of fun, no? - but then read and viewed a couple of things that has cemented in my mind the ugly reality that the Chief's imagery is a based on a Holywood air brushing/reinvention of a dark and sordid tale of rape, pillage, slaughter and ethnic cleansing on a scale that a Serbian war criminal would be proud of. Once known, cannot be unknown.
Its not even as if this is ancient history a la Saracens for example; the squalor of the reservations is part of the here and now.

I guess Exeter is far eough away that they dont need to worry about it and the Native Americans probably dont have what goes on in Devon uppermost in their minds, but now I have that association in my mind I cant look at that stuff without the 90% alcoholics on the Res coming to mind.

If Exeter folks are happy with it then good for them, but now educated I find it about as tasteful as dubbing Brissle (or indeed ourselves) "The Slavers" in tribute to the local links with that illustrious trade and having the team trot out to the strains of "Old Man River" at the start of each game.
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=267


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD


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