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MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Concussion in Rugby
14 May, 2018 22:20
Sorry, the search function here is too knackered to find the most recent thread.

[www.sarugbymag.co.za]


Article says much more, but here's a snapshot...


http://staging.sarugbymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-08-at-12.18.05-PM-200x300.png

THE RESEARCH STUDY


World Rugby’s research team, led by Tucker, studied 611 incidents that resulted in HIAs and compared them to more than 3,500 tackles that didn’t cause head injuries.


The most significant discovery was that 335 HIA injuries occurred while making a tackle and 129 while being tackled.


‘That was surprising and challenging from a legal perspective, because the law is almost exclusively written to protect the ball-carrier, who is on the receiving end of most instances of foul play,’ says Tucker.


The research team then looked at why the tackler is 2.6 times more at risk of a head injury than the ball-carrier, with every analysed tackle scored according to 20 or so factors, including the following:


• Relative speed of players: Backline players are twice as likely to get injured while making a tackle than forwards, probably because backs tend to engage in higher speed tackles. High-speed tackles are more dangerous than medium-speed tackles, which are more dangerous than static tackles.


• Nature of the head contact in the tackle: Was it head to head, head to shoulder, head to hip, head to knee, etc? Head to head contact is six times more risky than head to hip contact. The ideal target for the tackler is between the sternum and the waist of the ball-carrier. Overall, the risk of injury is 4.3 times higher for legal tackles with higher contact (shoulder and head to head) than legal tackles with lower contact (below the shoulder).

http://staging.sarugbymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-08-at-12.19.29-PM-300x270.png

• Body position of the ball-carrier and tackler: Were they upright, bent at the waist or diving/falling? As either of the players can be in one of three positions, there are nine possible combinations. The most injuries occur when both players are upright. The lowest risk for the ball-carrier is when he is bent at the waist, no matter what the tackler does. For the tackler, the risk is lowest when diving and highest when upright. ‘The key message here was that an upright tackler is the situation we want to avoid, because it is higher risk and happens quite often,’ says Tucker. ‘The safest tackle is one where the tackler is bent at the waist or diving.’


• Type of tackle: Was it an active or passive shoulder or a smother tackle? The research team then produced a spectrum of risk, and worked out which type of tackles were more and less likely to cause a head injury. ‘Once we knew that, we could look at substituting high-risk tackles with low-risk tackles,’ says Tucker. ‘One way to eliminate high-risk tackles would be to ban tackling, but obviously that’s not an option. That would be like banning cars to prevent car accidents. Instead, we wanted to look at ways to shift behaviour away from high risk towards low risk. That meant, for instance, getting tacklers lower and bent at the waist, lowering the speed of the tackle, or having fewer front- on tackles. Of course, some of these are feasible, others are not, and our challenge was to identify where a difference could realistically be made. That’s where the expert multidisciplinary working group came in.’

http://staging.sarugbymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-08-at-12.19.20-PM-1-400x240.png



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
14 May, 2018 23:46
WT, Search reveals you are somewhat prolific on this topic. Most recent lengthy dicussion is here, there have been other comments but glancing through them and reading the above I think a new thread is warranted.

It does seem as though the tackler is more in danger than the tackled which is what many of us on this board suspected. More significantly though it does seem that the current laws are doing the exact opposite of their original intention.

In summary it needs to be changes ASAP. I wonder if the Lawmakers are man enough to change or will they fall back on the "not enough evidence yet".

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 06:40
The difficulty for me is that two players would go in for exactly the same tackle, one would get himself knocked out frequently (as poor old Heathcote has found) and another can go low 40 times in a match (Dunn) and have odd shaped fingers but his head is fine. Isn’t it largely about technique? Another example is that 1/2p did himself a couple of times because he insisted on coming in from the side but with his head on the wrong side.

Funnily enough Underhill said to us the other day on the skills event that they rarely if ever practice contact tackling these days to minimise the risk in training.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 08:20
This research is great, but I believe the general thrust isn't that new. The RFU have been advising these green zones* of tackling at grass roots level for a while now and citing much evidence.

* From memory, look it up I may have it slightly wrong: Mid torso (green), hips (amber), upper torso and up (red), knees (red), thighs (green)

One simple law change for me would simply to bring down the level at which a tackle is considered high.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 08:25
Changing the high tackle law would not necessarily make much difference as it is often the tackler who suffers concussion.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 08:46
...and the 'head to upper body' risk for the tackler is the lowest of the lot, so maybe we should encourage elevated (but not high) tackles?!

The argument that having fewer subs will make the big guys smaller is certainly less convincing when you see that it is the smaller and faster contact that causes the most issues. Maybe make the guys a minimum weight of maybe 40 stone so they are lumbering along at walking pace?

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 08:50
Quote:
Boldangrey
Changing the high tackle law would not necessarily make much difference as it is often the tackler who suffers concussion.

I think the idea is to force the tackler to tackle lower (and penalise him if he doesn't) rather than protect the tackled players head area from contact.

It's one of these 'laws' they make to produce desired outcomes and behaviours rather than protect the player from an offense.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 09:21
And the laws are being looked at in different ways. There was a lot of ducking into lowish tackles this season, only for the tackler to be called for a high tackle, when his only other option was to not make a tackle.

Headguards and extra padding for players may be an option but they have been proven to be a bit iffy in boxing and the NFL.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 09:58
HEADGUARDS DO NOT PROTECT AGAINST CONCUSSION!



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 10:02
Matt I am defo advocate of fewer subs for the reason of de powering the game a bit and making it more attractive by opening it up as the games go on.
Re tackling: if the game opens up there will be fewer tackles and many of these will not be front on which is the dangerous scenario. It also follows that if both players involved in a tackle are smaller then the overall combined force of the collision will be lower.
Win, win, win.

FLAP

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 10:25
Quote:
sid the seagull
Matt I am defo advocate of fewer subs for the reason of de powering the game a bit and making it more attractive by opening it up as the games go on.
Re tackling: if the game opens up there will be fewer tackles and many of these will not be front on which is the dangerous scenario. It also follows that if both players involved in a tackle are smaller then the overall combined force of the collision will be lower.
Win, win, win.

FLAP

I thought the same until I saw those graphs above Sid - the backs have more HIAs than the forwards due to more space and higher collision speeds.

• Relative speed of players: Backline players are twice as likely to get injured while making a tackle than forwards, probably because backs tend to engage in higher speed tackles. High-speed tackles are more dangerous than medium-speed tackles, which are more dangerous than static tackles.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 10:33
Thanks which. It seems to be worth repeating.

"Changing the high tackle law would not necessarily make much difference as it is often the tackler who suffers concussion."

But, that's exactly what the research says. The tackler gets injured when going high, making contact with heads and raised elbows. Mid torso and thighs are the place to aim for. There's limited ways those areas can move and they are soft, putting the tackler back in control.

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 10:56
Matt I think that is because the pitch is too crowded and coaches love orchestrating mismatches ie the rampaging TH in the mid field traFfic jam mowing down the plucky little winger or the ginormous No 8 appearing on the wing ditto.
So fewer subs would make it impossible for the knackered fatties to get out to the wings after 50mins or alternatively you make it compulsory for all forwards to weigh in excess of 40stone as you suggest. Same result they’re not going anywhere.

HOP

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 10:59
I think the number of subs is about right (in AP rugby, max 3 subs is crazy in some leagues).

I think its safest and best for the game to have a complete front row replacement. A forward, a 9, an outside back and a utility (usually a second forward).

Cutting down on that means an injury is likely to mean a player out of position, which is probably not great for

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 11:00
PS lovin the debate but really ought to do some work BFN.

PECK

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 11:04
That would be another benefit to making the tackle lower, you'd have to be more agile to get there and so not as heavy.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 11:09
IMHO (and this is theme I have raised on here before) it is the current laws and their interpretation that are at fault because they:

* Cut down the space between attack and defence lines, making the upright tackle inevitable

* Also making it necessary to progress by charging into contact, instead of seeking space

* Remove the need to commit the majority of forwards to the breakdown, exaggerating effect of the above

* Remove dynamism from the ruck, so static rucks get cleared out by players charging in with shoulder, elbow etc, or neck rolling opponents

* Allow players to go off their feet, which means only a couple of bodies are needed to halt forward momentum of the opposition

* Encouraging midfield offside, which is now the norm and referees largely ignore, which in turn adds to the congestion and upright collisions.

The lawmakers need to restore a dynamic situation at the breakdown which forces commitment of numbers and gives adequate separation between defence and the side in possession so that they can run at space.

Such changes would have the beneficial side effect of making the game faster and more fun to play /watch. Also I suggest, easier to referee!

Go to it lawmakers!

PG

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 11:55
I would love to see the tackle vs HIA stats in both rugby league and 7s - would be an interesting comparison given the differences in space, player sizes and speed of the game despite all 3 having tackles as a key part.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 12:39
Fewer players in the same space would be an option. Do away with one of the flankers and one of the wingers. They could also make players wear trousers which had to be the target of a tackle. However. that would make it very hard to stop anyone from close range.

I admire the efforts being made but fear that rugby may not be around for the long-term. Is there the money in the game to handle future lawsuits?

 
Benger_Boy
Benger_Boy (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 13:16
You could argue that a tired player is more likely to have poor tackling technique and therefore an injury is more likely, so haveing less subs could make things worse.



Players wanted! Any one who wants to get into or back into rugby or just fancies the odd game for Sutton Benger RFC, PM me.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 13:26
"Cut down the space between attack and defence lines, making the upright tackle inevitable "

Ironically they've found the 5 metres at the scrum has lead to a harder hitting defence. I don't think it is the space that makes the upright tackle inevitable, most guards are in a crouched position in the first place and that's about a close as defences get. It's the fear of the offload, but as a neutral I think we want to see more offloads and defences will adapt.

Good points on the breakdown though. I was on a ruck and maul course not so long ago and was surprised to find they prioritised the maul, that's an attacking weapon, the ruck is just a dead play. The reason given was the maul has a dynamic offside line, an effective maul keeps the opposition offside line going back and back. At the ruck the attacks offside line either goes back or compresses the space between the defences, at best stays the same. When I was young I was always taught to clear out a ruck, by it always felt wrong that my efforts to clear it out, if I went too far, just allowed the defence to come in from "the side" and nick the ball. I would suggest that the offside line remains even after the attacking ruck has gone over the ball. That means the ruck can keep driving the defence back increasing space. It might look a bit odd to the layman, but then they don't tend to understand offside in the first place.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 14:21
Agree on fear of the offload Dan, but if there were fewer forwards cluttering up the line the need would be for a proper pass over several yards distance and should encourage a tackle that unbalances the ball carrier -inhibiting or preventing the pass.

On the ruck I agree with you. That's what the original NZ rucks, with feet pumping and back parallel to ground, were designed to do - drive the defence back keeping the offside line dynamic.

For more on the upright tackle, see my next post.

PG

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 14:28
Quote:
BathMatt53
I would love to see the tackle vs HIA stats in both rugby league and 7s - would be an interesting comparison given the differences in space, player sizes and speed of the game despite all 3 having tackles as a key part.

I don't know about HIA stats but I remember a letter to The Times a decade or more back from an orthopaedic surgeon who had done a study on neck injuries in rugby.

His findings were 1 serious injury per 100,000 players per season in Rugby Union.

In League the figure was 1: 6500 per season

That meant a league player was 15 times more likely than a Union player to suffer a serious neck injury.

Given that the scrum is almost non existent in League I had to conclude that the difference was down to tackle technique. Either because of the prevalence of the swinging arm in League (rare at that time in Union) or due to the two lines being only 2-3 metres apart at the play-the -ball, with the width of the field covered by defence.

I can see the same issue that drives neck injury as a probable cause of concussion.

PG



P G Tips



Alex Davies: my adopted Player, 2018-19.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
15 May, 2018 14:40
The tackle in league has changed a lot since then as well - they did love the old shoulder barge back then. Some sickening examples on youtube of what they used to get away with.

 
Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
30 May, 2018 16:20
Ireland centre Jared Payne forced to retire a year on from head injury last june at Exeter Chiefs and previous concussion on the 2017 Lions tour to New Zealand.(Sm136)

To become defence coach with Ulster.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Concussion in Rugby
30 May, 2018 16:35


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