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P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 12:48
Brown still on wing, Robshaw retained, despite their defensive errors v Baa Baas. No place for Cipriani, Robson or Simmonds - even on bench.


England team to face South Africa: Elliot Daly; Jonny May, Henry Slade, Owen Farrell, Mike Brown; George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Nick Isiekwe, Chris Robshaw, Tom Curry, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Harry Williams, Brad Shields, Nathan Hughes, Ben Spencer, Piers Francis, Denny Solomona

England more experienced than Sa overall - 500+ caps v 350, but SA have edge up front, especially front row.

PG

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 12:51
The mind boggles. Great for Curry and Slade, tough on Lozowski and no idea what's going on with Brown.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 12:54 by BathBurger.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 12:57
Eddie trying his best to sap even more England enthusiasm from me. Can I be bothered to chuck £7 NowTVs way to watch it on Saturday? No.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:04
I think he has picked Brown on the wing because he is good at the high ball if SA go that route and he probably will interchange with Daly maybe. SA have picked two fliers on the wing and if they come up against Brown one on one on the wing, it's not going to end well for us.

As for the other selections, I don't mind Slade starting, he has a chance now to show us what he can do but I don't understand for the life of me what Francis has done to get in the team ahead of Loz, I really don't get that one. I also would have gone Robson ahead of Spencer but my only guess is that Spencer is a better tactical kicker hence why he is on the bench.

I don't mind Robshaw starting game 1 as Shields is probably not yet fully up to speed as he only arrived in camp on Monday or Tuesday I think but, another poor game and shields takes that spot, rest of the team is fine to me and I hope Daly does well at FB.

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:06
Brown on the wing is boggling... I can only presume he is being tasked with coming in and offering himself as an option short in the way Nowell does in the absence of anyone like that. Those wingers for SA are both electric quick though and we could be in real trouble there. Fortunately they don't have the same bulk as Tuisova like in the Baa Baa's game but their acceleration may be even better instead. Good luck to him...

Expect to see Robshaw come off 40/50 minutes in imo and see Shields replace him. That would be a much better looking back row even though I am still undecided on Shields.

Front row and second row very exciting starting lineup in terms of youth and power but am surprised to not see Launchbury in there at all! Lozowski also very unlucky to miss out but it would be even more Saracens lite with him in there. Francis lucky to make bench ahead of him for me.

Don't see and England win unfortunately this week if the Springboks throw the ball around a bit and stretch us.



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:06
I think this is where it will finally unravel for EJ. He is an arrogant aussie Tw*t and the choice of Mike Brown anywhere near this side is mind boggling. I hope we get stuffed on this tour and he gets severely reprimanded for his stupidity in entering into a war of words with the clubs. At this point in the WC cycle we should be on an upward curve not a downward one. Compare our shambles to what is happening with the other home nations.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:12
Totally disagree Nick, I don't like Eddie Jones and regardless of your feelings towards Jones, I don't get this idea of hoping we lose because you disagree with his selections. That is just such a weird mentality to me.

Whatever his battle of words with clubs is and it is a battle with Bruce Craig, not a battle with "clubs", that has nothing to do with anything and is secondary to the game on saturday that I hope we win regardless of my disagreement with some of his selections

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:25
[quote Big Dog]

Front row and second row very exciting starting lineup in terms of youth and power but am surprised to not see Launchbury in there at all!

Injured BD:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

I think it would be really bizarre, in the absence of Lawes and Kruis, if Eddie had left out a fit Launchbury altogether.

PG

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:28
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Totally disagree Nick, I don't like Eddie Jones and regardless of your feelings towards Jones, I don't get this idea of hoping we lose because you disagree with his selections. That is just such a weird mentality to me.
Whatever his battle of words with clubs is and it is a battle with Bruce Craig, not a battle with "clubs", that has nothing to do with anything and is secondary to the game on saturday that I hope we win regardless of my disagreement with some of his selections

The 6 Sarries in the starting team may have something to do with you having more enthusiasm for these games than us BS12. Real shame he hasn't tried out some of Danny Cipriani, Alex Lozowski, Jason Woodward and Mark Wilson but pleased that Tom Curry is there. Personally I will be clipping my nails or something at the weekend rather than bothering about the same old faces huffing and puffing their way around the pitch.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:30
Brown's selection was almost inevitable given the squad selection. Earle is untried and Solomona's defence is suspect. But Brown going forward is a non starter, I can see him being severely embarrassed out there!

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:35
Haha Bath Matt trust me, I watched England when the team had no sarries players and will watch them when they have 23. It makes no difference to me and Sarries and England are 2 different teams and I take them and treat them as different entities.

I don't mind you saying you won't watch the game, no one can force you to watch, I had an issue with Nick saying he hoped we lost the game, to me that is not a great attitude to have because you don't like Eddie.

As much as I don't like Eddie and I don't as he is annoying most times, I want England to win always regardless of who is coach and those players have worked hard so, no way will I be hoping they go out there and "get stuffed"

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:36
Barnetsarrie

Tony Roche of Exeter has given public support to Bruce. Mark McCafferty CEO PRL (&ex of your parish I believe) has also said PRL has a bone to pick with Eddie over training injuries, so I do not think it is a personal spat alone - though I accept Craig has been the most vociferous critic of training injuries to date.

PG

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:36
Quote:
P G Tips
Injured BD:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

I think it would be really bizarre, in the absence of Lawes and Kruis, if Eddie had left out a fit Launchbury altogether.

PG

Thanks PG - I can always rely on you to have read up on these things where I haven't!!



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 13:40
Quote:
P G Tips
Barnetsarrie
Tony Roche of Exeter has given public support to Bruce. Mark McCafferty CEO PRL (&ex of your parish I believe) has also said PRL has a bone to pick with Eddie over training injuries, so I do not think it is a personal spat alone - though I accept Craig has been the most vociferous critic of training injuries to date.

PG

You are right PG that those other guys have commented but the back and forth has been between Eddie and Bruce. I have not heard him mention Mark and Tony.

To me that is still insignificant, I don't care that Tony Rowe or whatever owner is fighting Eddie Jones, I want England to win, that has no effect on how i want England to perform.

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:02
I assume Brown and Daly will swap positions in defence at least, if not entirely. He must be planning on using Daly in the centre in attack, either as a strike runner or as an extra distributor. Having Brown defend on the wing is a recipe for disaster, at least Daly has pace to stay with the SA flyers. If problems at the ruck persist, SA will be very dangerous if they can move the ball wide off a turnover.

Not having a proper lock on the bench away to SA is madness. An injury to either starting lock (which is almost inevitable now) and that's the scrum and line out gone. Either lock could be moved to 6 if necessary so additional back row cover isn't required. Isiekwe will have to play out of his skin for the full 80, big ask.

 
Omba
Omba (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:05
Robson held back for a Wasps half back combo next week?

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:10
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Whatever his battle of words with clubs is and it is a battle with Bruce Craig, not a battle with "clubs",

It is an issue with clubs both individually and as a group, just because BC is the most vociferous owner doesn't make him wrong. I suspect you don't like BC as an individual but don't confuse the two.

I believe Eddie has used BC as a distraction, I hope England win on Saturday but he does seem to make the odd strange selection sometimes, he needs to get it back on track as soon as possible!

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:17
Shipwrecked, I don't like or dislike Bruce Craig, I don't care about him in any way, he does not coach England and is not involved with my club team so I don't really care. I don't dislike him, why would i dislike him, I don't think i have ever given a second thought to him until this whole thing with Eddie started.

I am not saying he is wrong or Eddie is wrong, I am saying that Eddie Jones has only been going at one man and that is BC, whether that is a distraction or not is not my concern, I think the whole thing has been a distraction as this is something that needs to be discussed at the end of the season, not in the middle of a must win tour.

I do agree with you that Eddie makes some strange choices, even the team he picked on saturday has loads of gambles there.

First if either Itoje or Isiekwe gets injured, you are going to play Brad Shields who is not heavy and certainly not a lock in the game, that makes no sense to me. I also don't get Francis over Cips or Loz, Brown on the wing also makes no sense, brown has played on the wing many times for England and has been found out there over and over again so that is silly to me.

Despite all that, I hope we win on saturday, I think SA are favourites as they only lose at Ellis Park to NZ and even as bad as they have been in recent years, they have always pushed them close there and it's been less than a try deciding those games with the all blacks so England have it all to do on saturday.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:22
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Haha Bath Matt trust me, I watched England when the team had no sarries players and will watch them when they have 23. It makes no difference to me and Sarries and England are 2 different teams and I take them and treat them as different entities.
I don't mind you saying you won't watch the game, no one can force you to watch, I had an issue with Nick saying he hoped we lost the game, to me that is not a great attitude to have because you don't like Eddie.

As much as I don't like Eddie and I don't as he is annoying most times, I want England to win always regardless of who is coach and those players have worked hard so, no way will I be hoping they go out there and "get stuffed"

I can see it from the point that, if we lost and it was a result of Mike Brown playing on the wing it could mean that we would never see him again in that position - particularly at the world cup when it really matters. One of those, cruel to be kind things...

So, maybe a one point win to England with MB having a stinker in that position, being subbed and his replacement scoring the winning try and making a saving tackle would suffice!

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:25
If Mike Brown plays on the wing in an important WC match Matt, we are f*****

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 14:58
I can see the logic of most things - but I can't say I'm overly impressed.
Tight 5 are fine.
Robshaw should be sitting on a beach sipping Mojitos; as it is, he's in there to hold Curry's hand whilst he gains experience. I don't think it's time to dump him, but he really needed to spend this summer giving his mind and body a chance to actually recuperate and build some beneift from the beastings. I'd be nervous about 2 rookies on the flanks; but I think it would have been better long-term management.
No lock on the bench is a bit risky, and surprising given Eddie's usual desire for as many locks as possible. Surely this is a fitnes issue rather than a desired outcome.
I'm fine with Ford n Faz (though again, Fazlet should be chilling out somewhere he doesn't have to think about rugby); but I can't see how they work with Slade - who I like on principal; I just feel he's wasted at 13; and doubley so at 13 alongside FordnFaz. It's just a bit weird; but then the only centre we've taken who could attack the line is Daly - and I CAN see the point of getting some gametime into him at 15; especially doing so at altitude.
Daly at FB is a good thing; but Brown on the wing... as with the BaaBaa.s match, that can only be as starting backup in case Daly has a howler; when they can switch positions and not use up a replacement. I don't like it, but it is what it is. I'm also fine with Drunken Denny getting as few minutes for England as possible - on the principal of twattishness, not talent. I'd far rather have had Daly and Woodward starting together; but that's got that old "experience" issue, of having a rookie FB, with his backup being a rookie international - a risk well worth taking IMO; and an issue that is of Eddie's own making.
The less said about Francis over Lozowski (or even Cipriani) the better



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 14:59 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 15:44
I like the way the Boks have chosen to start with two tightheads on the field with a further two on the bench. A very cunning plan, I'm surprised no one else has thought of it. Perhaps we can sneak an extra wing on the pitch to play with Brown?

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 16:22
Maybe Eddie has chosen an interesting lineup to force us to watch in intrigue? He's like an Eastenders or something - everytime you start to get bored of the drama and nonsense he throws a wildcard selection in to keep you viewing...

Personally would have gone with the below instead based upon what I know of fitness and form;

Mako
George
Sinckler
Maro
Isiekwe (would have started Launchbury if fit)
Wilson (seems to be very under rated but physicality wise could match the Boks imo)
Curry
Billy

Robson
Ford
May
Farrell
Lozowski
Daly
Woodward

Not loads different and still selection issues for me but given the injuries and lack of fit and capable midfielders I think it is the best I could drag from the dregs. Surprising how when Joseph fit we all complain (myself included at times) he isn't in form but actually I am no more confident now Slade is being given a chance.

Would ideally have a fit Watson to start on wing and Daly to FB in my lineup but needs must. Woodward would still be a preferable wing option to Brown too!



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 16:22
Given the squad Eddie has taken there aren't many team selections I'm surprised at

This is Slade's big opportunity to make or break so can understand that. Probably I'd go with Robson over Spencer but Francis over Lozo? Bizarre

 
Shorty Shorty iiv
Shorty Shorty iiv (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 16:50
SA by 20... and quite frankly I hope its more. and I'm English.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 17:18
I don't understand the "I hope it's more" school, what are you hoping that will achive?

I guess it will vindicate your decision to be miserable about it?

Which means you can emotionally detach yourself from the game?

You'll be able to say "told you so" if right whilst being quietly forgotten if wrong.

I'm quite looking forward to this. We're coming off the back of some terrible results and I don't know how strong SA are so my hopes are a bit mixed, but brown aside I don't think the squad particularly worries me.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 17:26
I do enjoy watching Faf and WLR in action which could liven up the experience - both top players.

Slades time is now, if he doesn't justify his place in this game I fear that he won't get much of a look in. Is Ellis Genge injured, I thought that he may have had a sniff (Mako shouldn't be there IMO, he has played something like 32 games this season).

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 18:08
Is Hughes a realistic line out jumper or would it take a forklift to lift him? If one of the locks goes off, there will be very few line out options left. Assuming Billy lasts the full game, Robshaw or Curry (ideally the former) will be replaced by Shields who will have had very little time get acquainted with the English line out. By the end of the game, the only jumpers might be one lock and one flanker. The line out playbook could become very limited, against a team who usually have a very strong defensive line out. How have LCDs darts been recently?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 18:11 by RuggyBuggy.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 18:33
Billy won't last the whole game at altitude, Hughes is not a line out jumper and SA will have 4 top level line out jumpers on saturday as Jean Luc and Duane V are both very good jumpers and Kolisi is not a bad fifth jumper although I doubt he will jump on saturday.

The scenario you have provided is interesting, Eddie really cannot afford for Itoje to go down, not only will that mess up the scrum big time but he's the line out caller for England and the one who calls when Kruis is not playing beside him, Isiekwe is not really a caller and Shields won't be able to having only started training on Tuesday so really England are playing with 2 jumpers and maybe Robshaw but he is really only a front jumper, expect loads of movement at line out time as SA will try to double the two locks


He will be hoping and expecting the 2 second rows to play 80 on saturday as I epxect Shields to replace Robshaw and Hughes to replace Billy.

There is no way Billy who has barely played much rugby plays 80 minutes at altitude, it won't happen or he will be useless at the end.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 20:50
Has Eddie lost an England game overseas yet? Another of his records about to get obliterated on Saturday. England would always be long shots in this fixture, but they will be lucky to stay within 20.

Poor old Cips is going to feel a right mug by the end of this tour. Signed for Glos to stay eligible for England and going to find out Eddie only picked him to keep him qualified in case of emergency.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 20:54
England will be lucky to stay within 20, Really??

SA have not lost at Ellis Park to anyone not named NZ since 2001 so they are always going to be favourites at Ellis Park but it is ridiculous to say that England will be lucky to stay within 20 of a team that has been terrible for a few years, playing with many new players and playing their first game of the season.

That is just ridiculous. I know people don't like Jones but some of the predictions on here are bizarre

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 21:00
Yeah, looks like Eddie has his substitutions made already, Hughes for Billy and Shields for Robshaw. Any enforced change to that, even temporarily (injury, HIA, sin bin) could be disastrous for the English set peice. SA will target the English line out big time. They could kick a lot for territory and back their defensive line out. Its going to need a huge effort from both locks, lots of big Saffers to shift from rucks and no doubt plenty of mauls to defend.

Having a relatively slow guy on the wing who is not used to wingers positioning (Brown) kinda plays into SA hands if they kick to the corners. Ironically, Brown would be an ideal full back in this situation, his positioning at fb is very good and he generally runs the ball back to the safety of his pack. His contestables are good also. Would be shocked if he doesn't defend at fb. If you ask me, a conservative fb is the order of the day!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 21:02 by RuggyBuggy.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 21:09
I agree with you Ruggy although I really want to see Daly at FB. The Brown thing on the wing does not work, he is a full back and nothing else so I really do not get that.

If he is one on one on the wing with the two speedsters SA have picked, it is not going to end well for us.

Itoje and Isiekwe are going to have to play 80 minutes and like you said there will have to be loads of movement from line outs but I think we will be fine there. If there is one thing Borthwick is great at, it is planning a great line out.

I also think what 2 back rowers on the bench shows is that Eddie knows that Billy won't play 80 and he would bench Robshaw at some point so, he will be backing both second rows to play 80. Itoje can, Isiekwe is still young and asking him to play 80 in a test match against SA at altitude is a massive ask, I hope he comes through well

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 21:29
I suppose Billy V does change every equation - but I just don’t see England staying with them. If they were suffering a post-Lions fallout in 6N what the hell must they be feeling after a further gruelling 3 months? Brown on the wing is kind of funny in a way. Not even Mike Brown’s mum would believe he would make a full-strength England on the wing. Yet the message Eddie is sending him is, ‘i’m done picking you at fb’. That 23 would have looked a whole lot more solid with Attwood there to partner Itoje and Isiekwe covering 4, 5, 7 and 8. It just feels like Eddie always has to make some sort of point with his selections.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 21:48
Skybet has Boks by 3pts. Boks by 20 - 25 gets you 14-1.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 21:56
Did you watch Sarries play at the end of the season, I don't think fatigue will be a reason why the players especially the sarries ones and that's 5 out of the 8 players in the pack as they did not look tired to me towards the end of the season.

I agree with your points on Brown, to me the selection is most damning on Solomona, it shows Eddie does not trust his defense at all.

As for the Attwood point, that needs to die now, Eddie is not picking Attwood for the squad now or in the future, I know you guys love him a lot here but Attwood was a decent international at best and without a lot of injuries is not making the world cup squad and he has been playing in France, a much slower league, why should he be there over Hill or Isiekwe unless there are loads of injuries.

Isiekwe and Hill have had top seasons and Isiekwe is not exactly small at 6'7 and 120 kg and his opposite man playing for SA is uncapped.

Again I think SA will win, they are at Ellis park, they always play well there, I think the crowd will be buzzing and new coach and new captain, I think they will win but they are not running away with anything, that is a very callow SA team, with an uncapped lock, a one cap 13, two uncapped wings, Robshaw has more caps than both their flankers combined and Billy is even more capped than their 8. I would not be surprised at all if England won the first game although I think SA will win

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 22:09
Quote:
Optimist
That 23 would have looked a whole lot more solid with Attwood there to partner Itoje and Isiekwe covering 4, 5, 7 and 8. It just feels like Eddie always has to make some sort of point with his selections.
Even have Johnny Hill in there, at least he can provide secure line out ball and is a hard grafter with Exeter. Why bring him if he's not going to use him? Eddie knows Billy won't last too long and Robshaw is a bit of a passenger and is sacrificing a lock. Very risky.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 22:37
I know he has a substantial whiff of the 'not test quality' about him, but Olly Woodburn seems ideal for that Brown wing spot.

 
Dazthelion
Dazthelion (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 22:40
I’m not quite in the “want Eng to lose” camp, but I am conflicted and possibly non-plus if we do. The problem is that all I really care about is a RWC. With Jones in charge we cannot win in Japan. His track record offers no hope that he can turn this round from the dire state it’s in. Not just 4 games but they were clinging on for the 3-4 before that.

I never like to see Eng lose but the only slim hope we have of turning it around and competing at the RWC is if the RFU strap on a pair and sack him after this tour, which is incredibly unlikely but a whitewash might make it possible. If we win or compete narrowly, Eddie feels he can justify his arrogant flights of fancy and will make excuses as always. His answer will be fitness levels, missing players, limited English skill set and the Eng Club system. The RFU have little ammunition and we stumble on to get tonked by the ABs in Nov, struggle in the 6N and arrive in Japan in chaos. That’s 2 World Cups we’ll have wasted with a fair bit of talent st our disposal.

Hobson’s choice, but given the RFU won’t sack him and lose face anyway I may as well cheer for England then stick the knife in when we lose.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 22:52
Why can't England win the world cup, England have lost 4 games since the end of the last world cup and have the best winning record of any nation since then including NZ. I mean we had a @#$%& 6 nations but can we at least get to the end of 2018 before we start talking about how we won't win the world cup.

It is always all or nothing in this country, when Eddie was winning, we were so good, we could challenge the all blacks and now he losses a few games and we are going to lose by 20, we are @#$%&, we won't win a competition that starts in 18 months.

The truth is England were never as good as the wins suggested and they are not as bad as the losses suggested, they are somewhere in that middle pack behind NZ, Ireland were@#$%&last year and even more@#$%&the year before where they could not win a series in SA against a terrible SA team, now they have won a grand slam and they are the greatest thing on earth.

England got to the final of the world cup in 2007 and that team was much worse than the present team, the French team in 2011 got to the final of the world cup and again that team was worse than the current England team, let us wait till at least the end of the year before we start talking about having no chance at the world cup.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 22:57
Scotland who were rubbish before the last six nations almost did and really should have made the semi finals of the world cup but for a terrible decision that went against them and that was against a team that beat England by 20.

Ireland who won the six nations the year of the world cup and the year previously got embarrassed in the quarter finals, there is still a whole season to go before world cup training let alone the actual world cup, jumping to conclusions like we would not win the world cup this far out is so silly to me

 
Dazthelion
Dazthelion (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
07 June, 2018 23:31
That may be due to a lack of foresight. I’m not in the camp that got excited about Eddie’s record before. We won two weak 6Ns with sporadic performances and walked over an Aussie side 3-0 that were in disarray. The record run was very deceptive but earned “Eddie are you okay” a new contract. Devoid of attacking intent other than in Arg with Glen Ella, failing to solve same old issues, insulting and ludicrous selections, disrespectful and often hypocritical treatment of players / other nations / Clubs, a lengthy injury list due to excessive training and a culture that means players perform worse the longer they spend in camp. He’s lost his defence coach who obviously wants to get away from Eddie’s set up and is struggling to find an attack coach so has a temporary one that says he’s not afraid to stand up to Eddie (implying others are - why should they need to stand up to him, doesn’t he want their views). And he’s done it all before. He’s boldly experimenting with this tactical periodisation approach borrowed from football, without fully appreciating the differences in the sport and the physical and conditioning requirements of each. He is an intelligent man, just no where near as intelligent as he likes to think he is - and those people are dangerous.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 07:19
It seems to me that virtually everyone else dismantled their team after the last WC and used the time to really grow towards (and peak at) the next one. England kept a lot of the same team so didn’t have the disruption and were pasting others who had been really disrupted, for example SA. Ireland also brought a load of new young lads through. Now these teams are reaping the benefits of experienced hungry young players. Jones instead has been playing Brown and Wigglesworth when he could have been trying Woodward and Robson. This difference in approach (as well as relying so heavily on Billy V) is why I think England were getting some big results but now aren't. I can see that continuing to the WC unfortunately. IMHO of course...

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 07:58
Dismantling and rebuilding was the point I was going to make. Ireland were poor in 16 and 17 having lost many of the stalwarts who won them the previous two 6Ns (BOD, POC, Heaslip, D'Arcy, Mike Ross, etc.). Since then, they have brought through Furlong, Ringrose, Leavy, VDF, Ryan, Carbery, Stockdale, Conway plus now Porter and Larmour have been fast tracked. England meanwhile have been persisting with guys like Cole, Robshaw and Brown and parachuting overseas players straight into the team (Teo, Francis, now Shields - we'll leave Burgess out of it).

 
Dazthelion
Dazthelion (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 08:14
Agree entirely about other teams rebuilding, and you can include NZ in that list too who have achieved it whilst remaining the dominant side.

Whenever the excuse of injuries to
Key players is used I struggle to have sympathy because we’ve made no effort to establish 3-4 player depth in each position as the ABs have done. We can barely field a bench of “finishers”. Eddie’s mistrust of the English Club game and devaluing of form and outstanding performance at AP level has meant we have a small group of players making up Club England and then a next tier mainly made up of Eddie’s gut instinct.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 09:17
Quote:
Dazthelion
He’s boldly experimenting with this tactical periodisation approach borrowed from football, without fully appreciating the differences in the sport and the physical and conditioning requirements of each. He is an intelligent man, just no where near as intelligent as he likes to think he is - and those people are dangerous.

I'm interested in this, is tactical periodisation used elsewhere in rugby or is it normally restricted to football?

I think Eddie is well aware that his stock needs refreshing hence the dabble with Shields but given the time frame shouldn't he have been doing this when he had a winning run rather than trying to dig himself out of a losing one.

 
Dazthelion
Dazthelion (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 09:31
Couple of interesting articles:
[www.google.co.uk]
I applaud him for looking outside the sport for improvements, but I do fear it’s a case of wanting to believe he’s clever enough to bring this into rugby and be a trailblazer without actually having the people skills to pull it off. There’s a big difference between Guardiola and Mourinho and to me Jones I a far more in the Mourinho camp with a very short shelf life wherever he goes.

This other one is an amateur but interesting and funny video analysing Eddie Jones approach and what may have changed:
[m.youtube.com]

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 10:03
Quote:
Dazthelion
Couple of interesting articles:

This other one is an amateur but interesting and funny video analysing Eddie Jones approach and what may have changed:
[m.youtube.com]

Very droll indeed - with more than a grain of truth!

PG



P G Tips



Paul Grant: my adopted Player, 2017-18.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 10:11
“tactical periodisation” and TCUP have always sounded like BS to me. If you want to talk a good game, use these terms and let others get on with actually doing it.

Take NZ out of the equation and even with their 6Ns England have as good a chance as anyone. Put NZ back in and basically its theirs to lose (again). NZ might make a mess of it, England or one of about 4 other teams might hit that game at the right time and its anyone's game. That's pretty much the situation when it comes to England's and anyone elses chances.

We could role the dice on a new coach, we might get lucky and find a genius but to be honest most likely we're just write ourselves out of the WC.

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 10:30
The WC is too far away to be talking about now and this thread is for the tour to SA. Tactical periodisation, if I understand it correctly (never heard of it before this) is about training in such a way that players can react appropriately in game situations and deal with the various scenarios that can be thrown at them. Eddie doesn't seem to practice this in his wider management, he doesn't seem prepared for losing a lock on Saturday or losing a hooker at short notice before any of the games. While these situations may not come to pass, it seems reckless to me to allow the possibility to exist.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 10:31
Billy won't last 80, so you have to have Hughes on the bench there.
You're then left with Hill or Shields for the other bench spot, be looking at either Isiekwe or Robshaw to play the full 80...
Given how knackered Robshaw already is, that would be a big ask; and whatever you say about Isiekwe, he doesn't lack for lungs.
Given a straight choice on Robshaw Vs Isiekwe to play a full match, it's a no brainer.
Given a straight choice on Shields Vs Hill as international quality, it's a no brainer.
The only doubt in the decision is in the case of injury, which modern coaches tend to discount anyway. Besides I'm told by kiwis that Shields can play lock as well, not a specialist, but can do a job for 10 minutes, which mitigates some of the risk.

I guess the other option is to bench all of Hill, Shields and Hughes, leaving Francis in the hotel - which is hardly risk free itself.

Oh, and the other point would be - if Eddie is at fault for this; are all coaches always at fault when they pick 0 locks on the bench? If so, then that rules out pretty much every international coach (or domestic) ever. All coaches do it, sometimes because they're planning an attritional gameplay for the back row, sometimes as they're unsure on fitness of a starter, sometimes as they're down to 8th choice lock and just don't trust him, sometimes as one of those backrowers has the versatility to cover lock... Eddie's on three of those simultaneously.
The more I think about it, the more I'm okay with no locks on the bench.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 11:31
I thought we lost in Ireland under Jones.

What I can't understand is why he didn't simply pick Brown at 15 and have him slot in on the wing, when he wants to change things a bit. That is what will happen anyway. It is almost as if he needs to show he is the boss.

Also - why not Cipriani over Francis on the bench? That would cover many more options.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 12:02
Does anybody know if the match can be viewed other than on Sky?

I shall be busy from KO to halfway through, do not have Sky so cannot record.

Are there any highlights?


PG



P G Tips



Paul Grant: my adopted Player, 2017-18.

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 12:16
Quote:
Which Tyler
I guess the other option is to bench all of Hill, Shields and Hughes, leaving Francis in the hotel - which is hardly risk free itself.

Another option is to start Hill, Wilson at 6 and have Isiekwe and Hughes on the bench. Starting Robshaw (as with Brown) seems to be as much out of belligerence as anything else. While there is a case to be made in support of two back rowers on the bench, I have no doubt that a lock (probably Isiekwe) would be there if Launch was fit. The logic of having another lock remains, despite Launch's unavailability.

It is rare that coaches would go into a game without a lock on the bench, or a least a back rower who is also a good quality line out jumper. While Shields might be able to cover lock for a short part of the game, he is not familiar with the English line out so of limited use there and lacks a bit of bulk when packing down. I just see the set piece (particularly line out) as very important in this game. It is a huge ask for Itoje and Isiekwe to go the full game against SA at altitude. Maybe they will and this won't be an issue, I just don't think it very smart to rely so heavily on two players with no real backup. Murphy's Law was written after a situation like this.

Edit; as you have pointed out, the reason for two back rowers on the bench is because two of the starting back row aren't going to last the full 80 (Billy and Robshaw). Seems like a dumb decision, an injury to Curry also be very damaging. The more I think about it, the less sense the selection makes. You can take a risk like this against Aus but not SA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2018 12:37 by RuggyBuggy.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 12:30
I think that you always have to consider an injury can happen in the first minute of the game, and see if your bench can handle the next 79 minutes. It would not really be fair to ask Shields to make his debut under such circumstances.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 13:29
Don't forget that Eddie has made the England players 40% fitter, so there's really no reason to worry whether players can make the full 80 minutes.

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 14:30
Quote:
Optimist
Don't forget that Eddie has made the England players 40% fitter, so there's really no reason to worry whether players can make the full 80 minutes.

Not sure if this is being sarcastic or not but I think it is pretty much universally accepted that two players (Billy and Robshaw) won't last the full 80. This for me is the problem, Eddie seems to be preparing for one situation only which, if nothing else, is very risky.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 15:25
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Why can't England win the world cup, England have lost 4 games since the end of the last world cup and have the best winning record of any nation since then including NZ. I mean we had a @#$%& 6 nations but can we at least get to the end of 2018 before we start talking about how we won't win the world cup.
It is always all or nothing in this country, when Eddie was winning, we were so good, we could challenge the all blacks and now he losses a few games and we are going to lose by 20, we are @#$%&, we won't win a competition that starts in 18 months.

The truth is England were never as good as the wins suggested and they are not as bad as the losses suggested, they are somewhere in that middle pack behind NZ, Ireland were@#$%&last year and even more@#$%&the year before where they could not win a series in SA against a terrible SA team, now they have won a grand slam and they are the greatest thing on earth.

England got to the final of the world cup in 2007 and that team was much worse than the present team, the French team in 2011 got to the final of the world cup and again that team was worse than the current England team, let us wait till at least the end of the year before we start talking about having no chance at the world cup.

Right, but the direction of travel has been getting notably worse and the performances too, not just the results. The AIs last year were dirge and the 6N was appalling. Add to this that Jones' gameplan seems utterly reliant on Billy, still hasn't worked out a back row that works, hasn't produced any depth at 2, 9, 12, 13 or 15, is being unbelievably stubborn and weird about Mike Brown, seemingly refuses to give certain players a chance and seems to have a knack for getting players seriously injured at his camps.

All of which doesn't mean that we can't/won't win in SA or that we can't/won't do reasonably well in the RWC. But just because Jones has a (superb) year two years ago doesn't mean we should ignore the serious warning signals going off at the moment.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 15:34
Quote:
RuggyBuggy
Quote:
Which Tyler
I guess the other option is to bench all of Hill, Shields and Hughes, leaving Francis in the hotel - which is hardly risk free itself.

Another option is to start Hill, Wilson at 6 and have Isiekwe and Hughes on the bench. Starting Robshaw (as with Brown) seems to be as much out of belligerence as anything else. While there is a case to be made in support of two back rowers on the bench, I have no doubt that a lock (probably Isiekwe) would be there if Launch was fit. The logic of having another lock remains, despite Launch's unavailability.

It is rare that coaches would go into a game without a lock on the bench, or a least a back rower who is also a good quality line out jumper. While Shields might be able to cover lock for a short part of the game, he is not familiar with the English line out so of limited use there and lacks a bit of bulk when packing down. I just see the set piece (particularly line out) as very important in this game. It is a huge ask for Itoje and Isiekwe to go the full game against SA at altitude. Maybe they will and this won't be an issue, I just don't think it very smart to rely so heavily on two players with no real backup. Murphy's Law was written after a situation like this.

Edit; as you have pointed out, the reason for two back rowers on the bench is because two of the starting back row aren't going to last the full 80 (Billy and Robshaw). Seems like a dumb decision, an injury to Curry also be very damaging. The more I think about it, the less sense the selection makes. You can take a risk like this against Aus but not SA.
Starting Hill with Isiekwe on the bench is significantly worse option that starting Isiekwe with Hill on the bench.
Starting Mark Wilson t 6, allowing the decision to then be Wilson or Isiekwe to last 80 minutes is a closer question than Robshaw or Isiekwe - but would involve starting 2 flankers who are both rookies at this level.
Robshaw has been selected to hold Curry's hand in much the same way that Brown has been selected to help out Daly.
Get some international experience into Curry, then we can have Robshaw, Wilson, Shields and Underhill fighting it out for the 6 shirt.
Equally, get some FB experience into Daly, and we can leave Brown to quins; with Daly, Watson and May starting and Nowell, Solomona and Cockanasiga fighting for the 23 shirt.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 15:45
I get the concern over lack of lock cover. But- for all SA's traditional strength in that area, will it be the key battleground?

SA have the edge of experience at front row and fullback - also traditional areas of strength. If they get the nudge on in early scrums the whole English pack could be in for a tiring and sapping afternoon.

PG



P G Tips



Paul Grant: my adopted Player, 2017-18.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 16:04
I would be amazed if 18 cap British Lion Daly needed his hand holding - especially by Mike Brown. Brown has played fewer overall games at wing than Daly has played FB I would guess so maybe its the other way around?

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 16:35
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Why can't England win the world cup, England have lost 4 games since the end of the last world cup and have the best winning record of any nation since then including NZ. I mean we had a @#$%& 6 nations but can we at least get to the end of 2018 before we start talking about how we won't win the world cup.
It is always all or nothing in this country, when Eddie was winning, we were so good, we could challenge the all blacks and now he losses a few games and we are going to lose by 20, we are @#$%&, we won't win a competition that starts in 18 months.

The truth is England were never as good as the wins suggested and they are not as bad as the losses suggested, they are somewhere in that middle pack behind NZ, Ireland were@#$%&last year and even more@#$%&the year before where they could not win a series in SA against a terrible SA team, now they have won a grand slam and they are the greatest thing on earth.

England got to the final of the world cup in 2007 and that team was much worse than the present team, the French team in 2011 got to the final of the world cup and again that team was worse than the current England team, let us wait till at least the end of the year before we start talking about having no chance at the world cup.

Right, but the direction of travel has been getting notably worse and the performances too, not just the results. The AIs last year were dirge and the 6N was appalling. Add to this that Jones' gameplan seems utterly reliant on Billy, still hasn't worked out a back row that works, hasn't produced any depth at 2, 9, 12, 13 or 15, is being unbelievably stubborn and weird about Mike Brown, seemingly refuses to give certain players a chance and seems to have a knack for getting players seriously injured at his camps.

All of which doesn't mean that we can't/won't win in SA or that we can't/won't do reasonably well in the RWC. But just because Jones has a (superb) year two years ago doesn't mean we should ignore the serious warning signals going off at the moment.


I don't doubt that Hasta. The team has not been doing well in terms of performance for a while even though we were getting results.

To me I am not that bothered by what the result will be, I don't think any team outside of the all blacks will beat SA at home 3 times so the 3-0 dream is just that, a dream.

What I hope for this tour is

1. Curry plays well and we have a number 7, to me he is the best young 7 in the country and is very good in defense at the breakdown but also as a link player
2. Sinckler/Williams plays well and shows they can scrummage at the top level, that then puts a lot of pressure on Cole to get better and we can stop our reliance on him if he does not add to his game next season
3. Isiekwe plays well on the tour and we have another quality lock and longer term, I think the second row playing tomorrow will be the second row post world cup
4. Slade takes his chance and actually plays really well. He has been a lot of hype and not much else especially at international level, let's hope the hype lives up to it.
5. Daly shows he can play full back very well so we can finally end the Mike Brown at Full back stuff
6. Shields plays well and we actually do not have to rely on Robshaw at the world cup if he is not in form.


If all of those things happen, I will be happy regardless of what the scoreline at the end of the tour is as we will be trending in a good direction for the world cup

 
Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 17:09
Quote:
BathMatt53
I would be amazed if 18 cap British Lion Daly needed his hand holding - especially by Mike Brown. Brown has played fewer overall games at wing than Daly has played FB I would guess so maybe its the other way around?

It is five years since Mike Brown started a Test on the wing !
Wales thrashed England 30-3 in Cardiff to win the Six Nations. Alex Cuthbert scored twice
down Brown's flank.

In my opinion a bad move by Eddie thumbs up

 
OBinFiji
OBinFiji (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 22:56
Robshaw is holding Currys hand. they'll spend 1st half teaching Shields the move calls on the bench. He'll hold Currys hand 2nd half.

Browns holding both Daly and Slades hand (they're both prone to brainfarts at times).
Eddie is working to get an experienced back 3 from Daly, Watson, May and Nowell for the WC (but he does like Browns spikyness).
Solomona is better at holding tacklebags than Wade or Roko.

Worries - No 8. Neither Billy nor Hughes are fit enough for 80 minutes. If Billy goes early, yikes. 2nd rows - fitness no worries, but injury is a risk. Injury is a risk everywhere, frankly. Youngs and Ford head clash in first 10 minutes - and we have Francis and Spencer - double yikes.

OBinFiji

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 23:24
How is Daly prone to a brain fart. The guy played and started 3 tests for the lions against the best team in the world. The idea that he needs his hand held is so silly it beggars belief and I can't remember many if any games that Daly has played for England where he had a brain fart. I actually can't remember one.

I also don't get the Brown holding Slade's hand. Also how can Shields who has never played international rugby "hold the hand" of Curry who actually has, again another bizarre comment, whatever his age, Curry is a more experienced player in international rugby than Shields who not only has never played international rugby, he has never played any type of rugby with the guys he will play with tomorrow.

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 23:30
I don't buy the idea that one flanker could be holding the other flanker hand. It requires a lot of split second decision making and having good instincts, things which another player isn't going to improve during a match. Helpful advice or words of wisdom can come from any experienced player. If one flanker has time to keep an eye on the other and critique his performance, then he is not doing his job right.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 23:31
November 2016 vs Argentina (5th minute) would have to go down as a bad Daly move, but can’t think of too many more.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
08 June, 2018 23:34
Totally agree Ruggy, the idea that in international rugby, you can hold anyone's hand makes no sense to me. Also Shields like I said is not even experienced seeing as he has never payed international rugby, if there is anyone in that team who needs their hand held, it is shields.

He trained with this team for the first time on Tuesday and let's hope we don't have to play him at Lock or he does not forget line out calls

 
OBinFiji
OBinFiji (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 03:36
Shields is captain of a NZ superrugby side - "known for his leadership and professionalism" captaining a load of guys new to Super Rugby at Hurricanes, and got a lot of good stuff out of them. Thats lots of experience of coaxing the best out of raw talent. Curry is, what,20/21? 2nd cap - or was the other cap for his brother?

As you say Daley red card v Argentina Nov 2016 - when he first played for Eng out of position. Eddies now playing him for his first test match, out of position,at full back. (I accept my argument fails, cos Brown was on the pitch back then!).

slade hasn't yet looked comfortable for England. If he doesn't look comfortable with farrell and Brown either side of him - get rid of him (mind you kinda agree how would Brown on the wing ever make you feel comfortable?).

I think most international coaches have made the point that a key part of being a successful international team is the amount of experience that you have of playing tests. thats what I mean by holding his hand. Jeez - I don't expect them to play ring a roses.

Anyway - I'm just trying to 2nd guess Eddies thinking. Not saying I would do what hes done - just that I can see the logic.

OB

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 08:09
Quote:
OBinFiji
I think most international coaches have made the point that a key part of being a successful international team is the amount of experience that you have of playing tests. thats what I mean by holding his hand. Jeez - I don't expect them to play ring a roses.
Anyway - I'm just trying to 2nd guess Eddies thinking. Not saying I would do what hes done - just that I can see the logic.
FTR - that's exactly what I mean by the phrase as well.
We all know that experience is important - as a team, as a pack or backline, and as a unit.
No coach ever wants too many newbies in the same unit for a meaningful match (these matches are the least meaningful of a RWC cycle; but Eddie obviously disagrees). You play newbies alongside experience; not other newbies. Playing someone out of position still counts as being a newbie, for a few matches at least.
No-one's expecting micromanagement from the experienced guys towards the newbies; but we are expecting to lend a hand.
Oh, and anyone who's never seen an experienced back (or backrower) shouting at, and telling an inexperienced team-mate where they should be positioning themselves... has never watched a rugby match.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 10:45
Quote:
OBinFiji
Shields is captain of a NZ superrugby side - "known for his leadership and professionalism" captaining a load of guys new to Super Rugby at Hurricanes, and got a lot of good stuff out of them. Thats lots of experience of coaxing the best out of raw talent. Curry is, what,20/21? 2nd cap - or was the other cap for his brother?
As you say Daley red card v Argentina Nov 2016 - when he first played for Eng out of position. Eddies now playing him for his first test match, out of position,at full back. (I accept my argument fails, cos Brown was on the pitch back then!).

slade hasn't yet looked comfortable for England. If he doesn't look comfortable with farrell and Brown either side of him - get rid of him (mind you kinda agree how would Brown on the wing ever make you feel comfortable?).

I think most international coaches have made the point that a key part of being a successful international team is the amount of experience that you have of playing tests. thats what I mean by holding his hand. Jeez - I don't expect them to play ring a roses.

Anyway - I'm just trying to 2nd guess Eddies thinking. Not saying I would do what hes done - just that I can see the logic.

OB


OB, I take your point about experience, I just think you used the wrong examples, at this point, Daly is an experienced international and Brown does not need to hold his hand for anything and his one and only big flaw was a mistake he made almost 2 years ago, since then he has been the most consistent back 3 player in England.

As for Slade, again not a bad example but using your point, Farrell would be the one to hold his hand not Brown as Faz is the one playing next to him in the centres, also Slade has 10/11 caps now so the whole inexperience stuff falls by the way side for me especially against a team where his opposite man has 1 cap where the 1 cap was a 3 minute cameo.

As for Shields, he is an experienced rugby player, that does not mean he is an experienced international, I still stand by what I said, he has never played international rugby so Curry is more experienced in that area and you can play all the super rugby or premiership games or european cup games you want, it does not make you experienced in international rugby.

That is like saying Jackson Wray because he has played 200 plus games for sarries and tons of european games and won finals for us, if he debuts for England in the autumn would hold Isiekwe's hand, even though Isiewke is a more experienced international player and at that point would have started a match at Ellis Park.

Tom Curry is 19 and he is still more experienced than Shields and Shields can captain the Hurricanes 500 times and that would not still make him experienced at international level until he actually plays international rugby, super rugby and international rugby are vastly different just like any form of club rugby is different to international rugby

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 12:45
No-one is going to hold anyones hand! You don't nurse new internationals, they are there because they are deemed good enough. You just play your best game or you get dropped, or at least that is how it should be,

You might make allowances at club level but at international you are the best player in that position. Thinking for 2 people will just ruin your own game.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 15:14
Learn from others experience would be a better way of putting it than hold hand. Brown is undoubtedly excellent at certain aspects of the 15 game, if Daly improves as a result of playing alongside then it's possibly worth it.

 
Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 15:24
Eddie saying in interview just now that he doesn't count the Barbarians loss in recent results when asked about a losing run! Really (Sm102)

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 15:54
Haha, was bound to be Mike Brown, great idea to put him on the wing!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:11
Ford is paying at his absolute peak.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:13
I’m glad I changed my mind about not bothering to buy a NowTV pass. Cracking game so far.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:17
Quote:
hasta
Ford is paying at his absolute peak.

Absolutely - Ford critics take note!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:26
Well that's has gone badly very quickly. Two awful mistakes from Daly, England have just stopped playing.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:27
Well, a half of two halves so far.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:29
Isikewe subbed for Shields after 35!

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:34
Looks like it could go either way exciting game

 
Barnoid
Barnoid (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:35
Quote:
Rawce
I’m glad I changed my mind about not bothering to buy a NowTV pass. Cracking game so far.

Seconded. More rugby in the first 40 than you normally get in a whole game.

 
MESSAGES->author
Toast and Marmite (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:35
Daly and Brown horror show...wtff has Brown got that makes him in unstoppable?



"No sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you."

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 16:43
I've got one thing to say....altitude..it will sink England 2nd half.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:02
So the lock gamble hasn’t paid off, especially if Curry has to leave the field.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:11
Yes, PGT called it, I fear some reputations are going to be tarnished today, Shields at lock is bad for him, bad for England, bad for Eddie.

It's a mess.

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:16
Both teams beginning to fade but England doing it quicker than SA.. F de Klerk having a good game feel sorry for Itoje who everytine he goes near him gets penalised for a High Tackle.

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:18
Up against it now!

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:21
Faf de Klerk proper test 9! Does Mako for a yellow!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:22
Faf and WLR a class above their oppos today. None of the England team putting their hand up. Even the scrum looking dodgy.

Quite right SW it’s a mess but 10 mins to pull it around. At altitude.

 
guernseyfan
guernseyfan (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:30
Is this the worst referee in world rugby?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:33
Quote:
guernseyfan
Is this the worst referee in world rugby?

No, but the England team isn’t looking great. They have decided that 1-off runners are te way to go against a team that have been turning us over. In fact it’s a familiar Bath and recent England ploy it seems...

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:35
Still twisting and turning

 
guernseyfan
guernseyfan (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:38
Well, there were many many decisions which went against us which were plain wrong. We would have won with a proper ref.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:39
Disagree. SA were great at the breakdown and at 9 and 15 which is where the match was won IMO.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 17:42
Fair do's they kept going to the end we lost a game we should have won. Eddies selection for Test 2 under scrutiny.

Matt's right similar problems to Bath but we desperately need a better defence, silly mistakes.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 18:09
So Isiekwe was a tactical substitution. Wow.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 18:15
Can you talk about a 3 point game being won in a given area? A different bounce off the ball and the game wouldn't have been won.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England Team First SA Test
09 June, 2018 18:25
Quote:
DanWiley
Can you talk about a 3 point game being won in a given area? A different bounce off the ball and the game wouldn't have been won.

Not as a specific play DW but I think that they were better (in the last 60) because of those three areas in particular. Youngs, back row and WLR played better today than their opposites who I think didn’t have a great game. For example Daly is a great player but had a bit of ‘mare today IMO, that one huge kick aside. For such a tiny guy Faf was huge.

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