rugbyunion
Latest News:

The COML Message Board

The place for discussion, debate and nonsense about Bath Rugby.

Join our new Facebook Group today!

New visitors please read the house rules before posting

Test your prognostications at our Prediction League


bathstigg
bathstigg (IP Logged)

Eddie Jones
09 June, 2018 20:34
Frankly he doesnít like Bath and I donít like him. To train at sea level and play at altitude is a stupid error one which was learnt by the Lions years ago. The my way or the highway approach is unravelling and Bruce is quite right to question the injury toll particularly to us of his duty of care to players. As much as I hope England win in tournaments this coach is souring my support.

 
Bluebs
Bluebs (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 08:15
Agree, sad to say that having enjoyed his first year in tenure itís now fairly clear that heís a one trick pony. Flogging the team to deliver short term wins does not translate well into successful longer term culture. We look like a team where all is not well in camp and with the recent defensive displays you need to ask if gustardís mind has already gone to Quins

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 11:05
However, we canít keep on blaming the head coach when things go wrong. We are not necessarily world beaters & a fair number of the players, particularly Sarries, are tired after continuous top level rugby. Thatís not even mentioning altitude. Also, I donít think EJ hates Bath though was clearly annoyed by BC standing up to him & had to resort again to cheap insults. Heís not someone JI
warm to be but is probably as effective as most other head coaches.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 12:16
I could not agree more with you Bath Hammer, I think this idea that England have a raft of world class players is delusional and that we are world beaters. The fact is we have a decent team that is not great. All the other points you mentioned is also fair.

How does Eddie Jones hate Bath, I really wonder how fans sometimes think, so the Bath owner comes out to criticize this man and his training methods and he retorts and now he hates Bath. How does that make any sense.

Eddie Jones seems like a very annoying person who must be tough to work with and he is not someone to particularly warm to but, he is the most successful Head coach we have had since Clive and as much as he is not doing well atm he is still one of the best coaches in international rugby and his track record at that level with England, SA and Australia speaks for itself.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 13:30
Only when he loses the team, he never gets it back...??
Imv, he has lost the team.
If he is not training for altitude performance, he must also be incompetent..?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 13:58
How frustrated must you guys have been when he was winning? That must have been really hard to manage.

I think people are over doing this defeat. It wasn't a bad performance, sure we tired as we weren't used to the home teams reasonably unique environment. But there was some good pay there, we scored plenty of points, it wasn't the same performance as the 6ns.

I can't imagine Eddie cares much about bath one way or the other.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 14:17
I could not agree more DanWiley. Some of the criticism of Eddie is valid to me but a lot of it is so overblown and ridiculous like accusing him of hating Bath.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 17:28
I donít think he hates Bath, but there is some evidence to suggest Bath dislikes him. One of the coaches was willing to be openly rude about him in a public forum. I suspect it has its origins as much in the way he treated Roko and the utter verbal garbage with which he accompanied some incredibly crass selection decisions ( this is the guy who plays Mike Brown on the wing remember), as it does in the injuries heís responsible for. I know another story around a Bath player which is an indication that England training is considered unnecessarily risky.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 18:13
Joe Schmidt aside I suspect that few coaches are perfect. (JS just strikes me as the ultimate pro)

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 19:00
I'm not sure that 'Eddie Jones is a @#$%&' isn't a sentence that has been at least thought by the vast majority of people who've worked with him. I suspect he might even agree with it.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 19:02
The spat between EJ & BC is bound to colour the judgement of both individuals about their respective operations. Will it influence EJ selection of Bath players? Not sure but it might. Will it influence BC's attitude to player release? For sure given he has had to pay salaries for 5 injured players for 9-12mth. Does EJ walk on water? No. Should he take more care of the people he calls up? For sure. It's only a game after all...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 19:48
Eddie had the most remarkable run of 'new coach' luck. As a result team self belief was high.

All teams will eventually lose. The test is to get back on the horse and regain your composure.

Eng lost then lost again and the team confidence seems to have plunged. What is stopping Eddie from bringing it back up again?

 
dannyf2
dannyf2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
10 June, 2018 20:17
Eddie is all stick. Lancaster did years of ground work and built the culture but couldn't put the bl@@dy minded finish on it. Eddie does exactly that.
Boom and bust.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 07:48
"Not sure but it might. Will it influence BC's attitude to player release?"

I don't think BC had very much influence here at all. Most weeks he HAS to release those players and if there are weeks he can deny them he'd end up upsetting his top players pretty quickly if he did.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 08:41
Probably makes Eddie even more likely to pick Bath players, if nothing more than to hold tackle bags, just to annoy BC!

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 08:52
I actually think a lot of EJ's issues come from himself. Whilst his brash arrogance was possibly confidence building for the players initially he has since become so entrenched in public war of words with other coaches, heads of clubs etc that it is a constant distraction to the players.

If more was said about what the team needs to do, who else needs to be brought in player wise etc, than people outside of the England camp then you may motivate the players more! E.g. if you make comments on looking at other options at scrum-half instead of other coaches and their coaching methods or x y z then you may have gotten more consistent performances from Youngs and Care over the last 3 years. Instead EJ does seem to take offence to even media questions on peoples form etc!



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 08:55
BD

Does Eddie's brash arrogance actually deflect criticism from the team and protect them?

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 09:00
O come on, Eddie's an Australian. Don't think he does subtle!(Sm59)



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 10:33
Quote:
Boldangrey
BD
Does Eddie's brash arrogance actually deflect criticism from the team and protect them?

That may have been the case to start with but now I think he picks slightly off topic spats to deflect criticism from himself.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 10:37
I'm not sure he picked the injury one - although he was happy enough to get involved once it had been started.

 
RuggyBuggy
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 12:10
The mention of Joe Schmidt is very pertinent imo. Schmidt has excellent inter-personal skills and his squad want to preform for him and succeed with him. When he went through a rough patch, he still had the players on his side and they completely trusted in him. This is the big difference with Eddie, he has@#$%&inter-personal skills and rubs everyone up the wrong way. Every time he opens his mouth he makes a rod for his own back. I don't think he has what it takes to turn things around.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 12:23
Also reports about saying the crowd got to the ref...
Not sure of the context but not very gracious at all.
I didn't think the ref was great but not sure it looks good if Jones says it. Having said that, who else woukd say it

For me, the whole question is how Jones treats people and he should realise that any slights can come right back at him. If he makes enemies with the media as easily as elsewhere, I dont see him lasting the course.

As it is, he has lost quite a portion of fans...?
If he has lost or is losing the players, it is then a question of how quickly you go further downhill..

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 12:45
He is the England coach & it was known what he was like when he was appointed. We didnít expect him to be liked. We hoped he would create a winning team which he did in a major way. Things are not going so well at present & he is working out options. Schmidt went though a similar slump. Hopefully he/we will get through it & become competitive again but if not thatís sport. I think, annoying as he sometimes is, we should get off his back & stop being so hyper critical.

 
BBWBaaBaa
BBWBaaBaa (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 13:24
Oh don't come on this forum and talk sense, it's not really allowed! smiling smiley

"He is the England coach & it was known what he was like when he was appointed. We didnít expect him to be liked. We hoped he would create a winning team which he did in a major way. Things are not going so well at present & he is working out options. Schmidt went though a similar slump. Hopefully he/we will get through it & become competitive again but if not thatís sport. I think, annoying as he sometimes is, we should get off his back & stop being so hyper critical."

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 13:30
Indeed. In any case I doubt he reads COML.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 20:10
Best post on this thread. Well done Bath Hammer.

I really do not get some England rugby fans, whether it is ridiculous tribalism because Eddie did not pick your fav players or the fact that he is arrogant and rubs people the wrong way but the criticism of Eddie Jones has been way overboard and I can see why some people might not want to coach in this country or coach the national team.

We do not do reasoned logic in this country, you are either so great or you are @#$%&, zero in between.

When Eddie was winning, the media were all over him, he was so great, Eddie this, Eddie that, fans were saying in Eddie we trust but, he then started to not pick players that the great selectors that are fans and the media thought he should pick.

He did not pick Roko or Goode or Wade or Cipriani so the outcry started to grow and grow but, they could not say much as England were still winning.

Now that we are losing, the knives are truly out, all of those people who are still offended that Eddie Jones either had the effrontery to pick players they would not have picked or to not pick their favourite players, they want him gone now even though, no coach worth his salt will come to coach for a dysfunctional RFU and owners who think they know all about rugby and over zealous media and fans who think their players are the greatest thing in the world.


The truth is Eddie has been bad and has to cop some criticism for his rubbish but, so too the players.

England players for too long have been labelled as greater than they actually are. Billy, Maro even Faz are all top players but also overrated. None of them is close to a world 15 and if you compare them to NZ players like Ioane and Barett, Retallick, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith or the aussies like Hooper or Folau or Pocock or saffers like Etzebeth or Malcolm Marx we just do not have that caliber of player and the media and fans in this country will have you believe we do and we just don't. Actually there are very few great players in the entire northern hemisphere, very few, most of the best players still play for southern hemisphere nations.

The truth is you look at our team and you have a good group of players who won things in the first 2 years post world cup, that is when most nations are rebuilding and capping tons of players.

Let's look at our team, we have a loosehead who has played too many games and has been average for England, he is not the best loosehead in the world as he has never dominated any big international rugby game. Marler has never been great at international level and Genge is too young and we don't know.

We have a Hooker who has less than 5 starts for England starting and the bench guy who can't nail important line outs. We have an old TH in cole and two good prospects but not in the caliber of an Owen Franks. At lock, we had one 23 year old who has been poor this season but had a storming 2 years, he has to go in this off season to get better at his game as again he is not nearly as good as the media would have you believe and is not nearly as good as the 2 NZ locks, the other one who is playing his first season at 20 and 3 other guys who have been good at international level but not great in Launch, Kruis and Lawes.

At 6, we have one guy who is not good enough to be capped by NZ, another one who is too old to still be playing and offers nothing apart from a mythical "work rate". At 7 we have a 19 year old who was poor on saturday and is not yet physically ready for this level and the other guy is injured, only 21, offers no attacking threat and probably does not start for his club next season in Underhill.

At 8, we have Billy who is a great carrier but can be easily nullified by SH teams who play against players his size all the time and is not fit and does not have the all around game a Kieran Read offers or even vermeulen offers and has never dominated southern hemisphere opposition in games and Nathan Hughes who looks out of his depth at international level but again, the media would have you believe Billy is nearly as good as Kieran Read, he is not even close.

At 9, we have the world's slowest scrum half at passing the ball and 2 rookies. At 10, we have good attacking options who are useless defensively, good but not great players at 12, we have one guy played out of position who is not a great 12 and not a great 10 either in Farrell and 2 big guys who are always injured.

At 13, we have a clutch of okay players. Loz is just okay, joseph is good but not great so too slade who was just okay and is probably going to be a just okay player at international level, rather than the next BOD or Conrad Smith. As for the back 3, Daly was not great on saturday and is good all around but if you were picking the best wingers and full backs in the world, he is not even anywhere close and Brown is not a winger and is way past his prime. May was excellent on saturday but he's just an okay international also.

Eddie Jones has been terrible this season and he deserves criticism, his arrogance is annoying and he can be a very annoying person but, it is high time someone actually call out the players and also this mythical idea that England has loads of talent as I have not seen anyone like a Rieko Ioane or a Folau or a Beauden Barrett or an Aaron Smith or a Retallick who is the same age as Launchbury but exponentially better in every aspect of rugby or a Malcolm Marx produced in England for all of the supposed talent.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 20:33
Cheers Barnetsarrie - thatís genuinely the dullest post iíve Ever got to the end of. In short - Eddieís @#$%& but stop criticising him; heís mostly picking the wrong players, but it doesnít matter because theyíre alll @#$%& anyway.

All hugely enlightening.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 20:40
Thanks Optimist for the feedback. I never said he is mostly picking the wrong players but I am sure you think so and can probably do a better job than him

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 20:49
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
The truth is Eddie has been bad and has to cop some criticism for his rubbish but, so too the players.

If the players were not trying I would agree, however, many players from different clubs are simply saying they are just exhausted.

It's taken football years and years to realise this and offer a token "winter break". A big part of the problem is overplaying. `that's not the players fault.

Eddie has simply ignored this and burns out one player before bringing in the next replacement. Eddie can sort this a fair bit of the criticism is valid, he ignores it at his peril.

P.S. Why such a huge post?

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 20:53
I get most of that... but most of those players you mentioned play for New Zealand. Folau is a one-off. Are there really, through the team, that many players that much better in South Africa, Australia, Wales, Scotland, Ireland? There's certainly an argument that the Prem is a meat grinder, but there is so much depth in England.

The fundamental problem with Jones is not selection, that's secondary. The problem is that, summer tours aside, the attack has been increasingly blunt and the defence increasingly porous. This is not just one game now, or just the 6N but started 6N 2017, through Autumn and this year. It's not the results. The performance has got steadily worse.

But, secondarily, on selection, it's been very inconsistent and his prickliness and randomness - Nathan Earle? Ben Earl? Cameron Redpath was in the original touring squad FFS - do not help him. He picks total randos into the squad, and holds huge loyalty for some, but (seemingly) will drop others in a second. He has been abysmal at giving scrum halves a chance - Joe Simpson and Dan Robson have been doing Faf-style things for years and haven't had a look. Jamie George is a starting Lion, can't start in front of Dylan. Denny Solomona goes on tour, Roko won't get a second chance, Wade hasn't been given one. What is the point of Piers Francis? Why can't Alex Goode have a go at 15?

Some of the players aren't at their best for sure - Maro, Robshaw particularly. But why is Maro even on this tour? Who is picking Robshaw, Brown? Who is taking two inexperienced locks and can't trust them both so puts an untested 6 in after half an hour to cover? Who is breaking all the players in training? Who is claiming 40% improved fitness? Is there a single player who is playing better for England than for their club?

Jones made this. He made it last year. He continues to make it this year. He is not showing any signs of learning or changing. The players aren't performing, but he's responsible.

And there's still a half-decent chance they'll win on Saturday.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 21:14
That is a very fair analysis hasta. I am not saying that Eddie should be spared. To me he should not, the lions guys to me should not be on this tour, I have said that from the start and he should not be spared.

You are right that most of those guys are kiwis but Hooper, Pocock, Folau, Marx, Etzebeth are not. I am not saying the England players are bad players, far from it and they have a team in all reality that should beat Scotland, Wales and should be better against Ireland. I am saying they are also not as good as they have all been made to be and we have no world class players in England and all those southern hemisphere teams have at least 2 in all their teams.

Some of them are young and can get there one day like a Daly or an Itoje or maybe even a Billy but most of them are just average to good international players and some of them are past their prime and that is on Eddie that he has not found a better solution at 6 than Robshaw but also an indictment on the premiership that no other player is that much better than him.

In terms of blame, Eddie gets most of it, I agree and the fact that we did not have an attack coach for so long is criminal to me and the performances have not been great and his method of over working the players and not using nuance a lot of time is annoying but the players also have some blame and like i still say that english players are overrated, I have heard Mako is the best LH in rugby, Farrell compared to Beauden Barrett and I am saying that we have to be realistic about these players also

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 21:19
I think that one of the issues is that he picks players that he likes who are basically undroppable and form players coming though don't get a look in*. In other international sides, they would - you have a bad game or two and you have to fight for your place. I get that when you are close to a world cup when you are building patterns and familiarity, but not all the time. How have other 9s not had more of a look in over the last 3 years? Or 15s? Or wingers tearing up the prem?

(*rare exceptions like Simmons when Billy V was injured)

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 21:22
That part I agree with Bath Matt, you are right in that regard tbh. Eddie Jones has made mistakes and one of his biggest is his over reliance on a group of players and not creating competition. The other part of that is when he picked Watson at full back, he was not great, Daly was not great at Full back also. The 9's i agree with.

I just think it is not a great indictment of the premiership that we are picking an all blacks reject and it shows the coach who for all we think about him, is really experienced, he does not think much of the back row players in this country

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 21:41
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
That part I agree with Bath Matt, you are right in that regard tbh. Eddie Jones has made mistakes and one of his biggest is his over reliance on a group of players and not creating competition. The other part of that is when he picked Watson at full back, he was not great, Daly was not great at Full back also. The 9's i agree with.
I just think it is not a great indictment of the premiership that we are picking an all blacks reject and it shows the coach who for all we think about him, is really experienced, he does not think much of the back row players in this country

My only issue with that BS is that I don't think that 15 is Dalys best position. Watson likes 15 but I think he has something that very few wingers have and whether 15 is his best international position I'm not sure (although he gets his hands on the ball at club level which has to be a good thing). Get players who have played well at a given position all year(s) and give them a shot at their preferred role. Most recent example, Shields - obviously a good back row, but international quality lock? Still, its all a bit too late for that now - as DW says we are committed to seeing it through I think.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 21:44
I've said this before - I think Watson is England's Adam Ashley-Cooper. He should be a wing and he will get 80 caps and 40 tries.

 
Barnetsarrie12
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
11 June, 2018 21:58
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
That part I agree with Bath Matt, you are right in that regard tbh. Eddie Jones has made mistakes and one of his biggest is his over reliance on a group of players and not creating competition. The other part of that is when he picked Watson at full back, he was not great, Daly was not great at Full back also. The 9's i agree with.
I just think it is not a great indictment of the premiership that we are picking an all blacks reject and it shows the coach who for all we think about him, is really experienced, he does not think much of the back row players in this country

My only issue with that BS is that I don't think that 15 is Dalys best position. Watson likes 15 but I think he has something that very few wingers have and whether 15 is his best international position I'm not sure (although he gets his hands on the ball at club level which has to be a good thing). Get players who have played well at a given position all year(s) and give them a shot at their preferred role. Most recent example, Shields - obviously a good back row, but international quality lock? Still, its all a bit too late for that now - as DW says we are committed to seeing it through I think.

That's fair Matt. I also don't think 15 is Daly's best postion. The problem with 15 is Eddie should have maybe tried someone there but who. Daly never plays at 15 for his club, Watson to me is not an international full back, wing yes but not full back and I can't think of anyone else. Goode to me is not great at international level so I have a little sympathy for him at 15.

I agree Shields needs to play 6 in the next game, let us see how good he is, whether Robshaw plays well and plays in the world cup, we will see but, he has hit a wall this season and we need to see what we have with Shields. I also don't know any 6's playing well in the premiership to have displayed Robshaw before this season, everyone loves Armand but he does not even play 6 for his club and is a 29 year old 1 cap player, he is no world beater.

Basically all I am saying is yes Eddie has made some odd selections particularly in the wider squad, some of the selections have been odd but for the most part, the starting team has been virtually the best he can pick and the players are good enough to win six nations titles but I don't think we have any world class players that to me you need to win a world cup. To me selections is not something I blame him for, what do i blame him for is that he has not gotten the team to perform to its optimum level and while I don't think we have world class players, this team is certainly good enough to be competing and winning six nations titles and the playing style and performances have been very poor in the last 18 months.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
13 June, 2018 11:02
Max Mullins played 15 in the JWC 2016 but seems to be a 10 whenever I've seen him play last season - does look a highly confident, skilled player

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
13 June, 2018 11:17
Max Malins? Very good young player - tore Tigers apart late on in Feb (despite the Sarries loss) when he played at replacement centre.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
13 June, 2018 13:54
I wouldn't write off Daly at 15 but he isn't there yet. Ditto, Watson, so I can see why you'd pick Brown.
We need to find balance in the back row and Robshaw will need to prove he can keep Shields at bay and the same applies for Hartley, George and LCD.
That is the nature of the top class game.
He hasn't looked at 9 or 10 and it is there that the favourites issue is apparent, Imo.
Just because the incumbents have 50 plus caps does not make them untouchable. I can see it would count for something in a real clutch game but not instead of firm, for example. Jones really should have looked there already.
It is rather ironic that attack wasn't the issue last sat and the under age groups look good attackwise. The u20s were lethal last night with Smith bossing that age group.
Jones should get stick if his selections look unbalanced and lack cohesion and the ability to follow a game plan.
A poor game here and there from a player is less a problem Imo.
Jones is picking most of the best guys we have but getting the results of late and the way we play is the big issue.

My theory is that this isn't likely fixable by Jones and the next guy in will pick most of the same players but I'd expect a performance boost from a change of regime.

I'm watching closely to see what Edwards does...lol

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
13 June, 2018 14:36
England under Eddie have been schizophrenic to the point where you have to wonder whether it's by design or that nobody really has a clue what type of team they are, or are trying to be.

They've conceded over 100 points in the last 2 games. They've had some madcap games against Australia and Argentina, and now South Africa, away from home, and some miserable grind-fests at Twickenham.

One minute he's telling us he doesn't care about players giving penalties away (that was when he was winning iirc), and now we know that penalties are killing them. He doesn't mind too much some aspects of discipline (Hartley for captain). He's made stodgy players like Robshaw and Brown mainstays of his team.

He wanted to get back to traditional English setpiece strengths and wanted to build a white orc type of pack, and then found out that the rest of the world wasn't really too interested in that sort of rugby.

I hope there's a masterplan somewhere - but I'm beginning to doubt it consists of much more than - 'for the love of god may Billy V be fit'.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
13 June, 2018 16:31
Who should play at fullback? Alex Goode or Jason Woodward surely?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
13 June, 2018 16:35
Simon Hammersley played well this year. Already started 25 matches this year mind you.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
17 June, 2018 22:24
Seems Eddie Jones has sent a letter of apology to Bruce Craig for his personal remarks. A bit of humility from Eddie. Whatever next? Smelling the coffee?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 07:35
[www.bbc.co.uk]

England head coach Eddie Jones retains the support of the Rugby Football Union (RFU) despite his team losing a fifth successive match on Saturday.

.....

As it stands, Jones will be given until after the autumn internationals to turn England around.

England face South Africa, New Zealand, Japan and Australia at Twickenham in November.

BBC Sport also understands that there are no plans to reconsider the Australian head coach's contract.

An RFU spokeswoman said: "The RFU supports Eddie Jones and his coaching team."

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 09:03
My concern is that we are getting smashed in the pack and at 9. It doesn't really matter what happens outside of that, if that is not working. The pack in SA is pretty much made up of the best players we have. Sinkler, George and M. Vunipola are big players in the English game and the same with the 2nd rows and back row. Underhill, Genge and Armand have a case but one can hardly call them shoe-ins. So - either our players are just not good enough or there is a problem with the coaching. Apart from brief periods of great back play, we have been thrashed in these two matches. I can see him going, if we suffer another loss.

 
OBinFiji
OBinFiji (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 09:52
Suddenly Dan Cole looks rather better than he did pre tour. Kruis and Lawes get back into the competition, Billy looks nothing like as sure fire a selection (although clearly not test fit). I'd reckon that, come November, the SA forwards will look knackered and the English will be up for it. After all, they only lost by 3 points in first test - with a rooky 2, 3, 5, 7 and a half fit 8 (OK so 2 and 3 were Lions, but they've not done much for England as starting players). Given that we were also missing a 13, we're really in need of a decent 9 that wasn't such a bad result really.

Still, its all doom and gloom officially.

OBinFiji

 
nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 09:58
is already a dead man walking. The prem owners are fed up with him and he realises he has overstepped the mark with them hence his apology to Bruce, the players are fed up with him evidenced by the media shambles last sat, EJ is too easily wound up by the opposition fans and their own media. He is interested in only one thing and that is hos own self promotion.
He needs to go once the SA tour is over and the RFU need to bite the bullet, dig into their deep pockets and throw whatever the need to get Baxter out of Exeter and into England immediately.

With EJ there we have mo chance in the WC

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 10:22
I very much doubt if England have enough money to 'dig' Rob Baxter out of Exeter! Might just get him on a temporary loan or consultant basis but not permanently.

I believe a better bet and possibly better choice would be Dean Richards. He has more experience of both international and European rugby. He would instill some steel and resolve into players, and is used to dealing with the suits and blazers at the RFU. He also has a point to prove and unfinished business with some people in the game and he would be motivated by revenge and getting his own back. He also knows the dark arts of forward play inside out and would do anything (within the laws) to win. It is our forwards who are not performing and we can all see that. That would change under Deano or some players would be sent packing.

With a decent backs coach, like Ali Hepher (much more likely to leave Exeter) or Dave Walder England could do so much better.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 10:35
"whatever the need to get Baxter out of Exeter and into England immediately."


After the WC sure, but right now it would be a stupid thing to do. Baxter seems to work well when he's given time and resources to build a team. Great, that's what you want after the WC. I can't see any evidence he can turn a team around overnight, one of the few people I have seen do that is... Eddie.

I'm a little shaken in my confidence in him, but that game even more that last week looks like a training game. The decisions to leave the 3 points and kick to the corner, then move the ball suggests either: the -players- have lost their minds, and I don't buy that, or they weren't taking a pragmatic approach to winning.

Contradictory though though sounds, I think these statements are about right.

"As it stands, Jones will be given until after the autumn internationals to turn England around...

BBC Sport also understands that there are no plans to reconsider the Australian head coach's contract. "

IF I'm right about this Eddie will look to start getting results in the AIs and if he doesn't then the RFU DO need to panic (RB still isn't the answer). But I reckon we'll see a ramp down in the training and a more pragmatic, effective approach on the pitch.

 
redmix
redmix (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 10:44
...is still the best man to be leading England!

Since we won the world cup in 2003 I think every England coach that followed SCW has been sacked or pushed out. SCW took more than 1 world cup to build a side and playing style to win it. Is the problem since SCW, the coach, the environment, or the players?

From what I've watched in the last few England matches, the players are a very big part of the problem. Indiscipline, poor decision making, failing to execute core skills like catching the ball. Sure the pressure of international rugby makes doing these things much harder, but that's what makes them an test match and that's what sets the top players apart from the rest. England are sadly lacking enough of those players, the ones we have could be, but are trying too hard and appear not comfortable playing at international level yet.They need more time to settle as a squad, and to integrate the newer players.

Any coach needs more than one world cup to build a squad capable of winning it. Eddie has not been given enough time, and won't get it unless he stays on until 2023. English rugby has become too short termist, probably because we now expect to be world champions.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 11:07
Even the incompetent RFU wouldn't be so stupid to sack Jones before the WC.



Jack Wilson - Adopted player 2017/18

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 11:20
Why should Baxter be the Man? He is a brilliant club coach, but has never been near an international.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 11:22
Quote:
redmix
...is still the best man to be leading England!
Since we won the world cup in 2003 I think every England coach that followed SCW has been sacked or pushed out. SCW took more than 1 world cup to build a side and playing style to win it. Is the problem since SCW, the coach, the environment, or the players?
....

SCW also made the point that a Lions tour cost him 2 years of development. I know it's the same for Sco Ire and Wal, but I believe it is a major factor.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 11:31
Baxter has other fish to fry first- European Championship.

Mr Jones needs to go and get some relaxation therapy - being micro managed endlessly is no fun.



Adoptee for 2017/18 James Phillips - newly arrived and bringing a wealth of experience in the Prem!

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 11:37
If he is going, then it needs to be after the next game. It would still give the new guy a chance. The result next Saturday should decide it. I don't think we've reached the bottom just yet. These crazy penalties show that there are serious issues in the camp. I can't see how he could survive a 40-10 defeat.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 12:05
I'm really not sold that being a good club head coach means you can transition to internationals seamlessly, where access and needs are so different.

There's no permanent attack or defence coach. The pack, who were powerful and superb 18 months ago are totally knackered now.

I really struggle to see what the RFU could do at this stage. Dave Rennie/Shaun Edwards?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 12:13
Quote:
hasta
I'm really not sold that being a good club head coach means you can transition to internationals seamlessly, where access and needs are so different.
There's no permanent attack or defence coach. The pack, who were powerful and superb 18 months ago are totally knackered now.

I really struggle to see what the RFU could do at this stage. Dave Rennie/Shaun Edwards?

All good sense.thumbs down

 
guernseyfan
guernseyfan (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 12:34
What's worrying in these performances is that there seem to be no leaders galvanising the troops. I don't see anyone in Saturday's pack who is a leader of men, and perhaps it suggests that Hartley, Cole and Robshaw perform a function over and above what we thought. On the whole it is difficult to find fault with what the backs did but once again Cips proved he a class above everyone else and if you watch him play for Wasps you see him urging the team on - precious little of that on view at the weekend. And I guess I should exclude Youngs from praise - he's introduced an extra half step before most of his passes - he didn't use to do that.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 13:37
He was quicker with the ball in the first half.. But Spencer was an improvement when he came on.
I'd play Spencer and Robson on Sat- maybe Spencer to start..with Cips at 10.
Farrell 12. Lozowski needs to figure and that means we have a fast running attack.
Get some sort of parity in the forwards and we stand a chance in the dead rubber.
Shame about Genge.
Marler and Sinckler need solid games.
Hughes will be a close call...if only because we need the bulk...over Simmons

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 13:57
These tough games might help Curry and Itoje in the long run. Jonny Wilkinson, Matt Dawson, Josh Lewsey, Lewis Moody, Phil Vickery and Graham Rowntree all played on the tour of hell. They didn't do too badly. However, it was 5 years before we won the WC.

 
redmix
redmix (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 14:23
Quote:
Boldangrey
SCW also made the point that a Lions tour cost him 2 years of development. I know it's the same for Sco Ire and Wal, but I believe it is a major factor.

I agree. We've seen many times the Lions come back knackered and take a year to recover. It is a real shame that the English Lions weren't rested for this tour, but we'd have had to accept not winning. Hang on, isn't it where we've ended up anyway!

I'm also struggling with this "Eddie is too intense" line. The very few elite sports people and their coaches that I've met in my life are the absolutely most intense, self centered people I've ever met. And that isn't meant as a criticism. It is a reflection that to succeed at the highest level many who get there do so by being totally absorbed by it. I would except any international coach to be extremely intense, and Eddie amongst them.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 15:04
I went off Eddie some time ago. He inherited a blooky good set up; players who went through their RWC15 'tour of hell' and came out determined to prove themselves; he embarked on an immediate results-based strategy rather than a development strategy; and his humour has turned into obnoxiousness. And he's shown with certain selections and non-selections that his ego and desire to prove himself immune to outside opinions over-rides the best interests of the team and the players.

I wouldn't get rid of him however.I think he's in a bit of a state of shock at how his stock has fallen, and I think he has sufficient experience to plot a way out of it.
.
I don't see us winning more than 2/4 AIs. But i can still see us doing well at the WC.

We aren't - nor were we ever - going to beat NZ next year, though.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 15:20
We are currently 6th in the World Rankings which is probably about fair and also reflects our chances for the next few games I would have thought.

[www.worldrugby.org]

NZ and Ireland are rightfully top 2 IMO (and by some margin in the scorings) although of course most of those top teams could turn over the other given home advantage.

I'm not sure that the Scotland and France positions really reflect their most recent showings mind you.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 15:47
"I don't see us winning more than 2/4 AIs. But i can still see us doing well at the WC.
We aren't - nor were we ever - going to beat NZ next year, though."

I agree, but accepting that we won't beat NZ means you're unlikely to be out by more than 1.

I also agree I think we'll do well at the WC. For two reasons, I do think Eddie is driving the team beyond their ability at the moment, deliberately. Secondly, and it partially relates to the first point, he'll have a very clear plan for the WC, he did with Japan at any rate.

My betting would be that we'll aim to contain and beat Argentina and France without expending much or given a lot away. Then you've got Wales or possibly an out of form Oz, again quite doable. Then We lose to NZ in the semi. The winner of that picks off Oz or Ireland in the final.

I can't see us beating NZ, but that's the game to target and theoretically we can get there playing well within ourselves simply by being fitter than everyone else and playing to our strengths.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 20:47
Wales are going to be better and stronger than 2015. Iíve never been a huge fan of Gatland, but heís going to leave Wales in a hell of a good place. As things stand I donít see a situation whereby they will go into a WC game against England on less than evens.

 
OBinFiji
OBinFiji (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 21:17
I agree with Dan. Seems to me that after going on that winning run Eddie wanted to put the team in situations where they were at a disadvantage for some reason, so that they could work out how to win by whatever means. Hence the overtraining during the 6nations. I wonder when the decision to train at low altitude in SA and play at high was taken. I'd guess that he is, now, pretty concerned that this has resulted in the worst case scenario, that the team has failed to work out how to win in any situation.
So, now, and for the AIs I see him focussing on winning and trying to put them at a disadvantage in any way. question is, can they get the confidence back? Can he do that? Well Japan kept losing until the World Cup - so he has previous (although of course they didnt qualify despite beating SA!).

OBinFiji

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 22:00
At a time when he does not have a settled team or even know clearly what his strongest team is it seems pretty daft to challenge them with avoidable difficult circumstances.

Do it once, but losing is a bad habit.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 22:24
I can buy that Eddie wanted them well out of their comfort zone, but it does seem to be backfiring rather badly. I guess we won't know until November whether it has had any yet to be realised benefits.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 22:31
By which time you've got about 8 games and a few training camps. The decision needs to be made at the end of the tour.... And you may want to canvass the players as well.
If they want to stick with him, they'll play for him....if they don't, no decision needs to be discussed..he is gone
Imo.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
18 June, 2018 23:15
I like Eddie's response - [url=http://[www.theguardian.com]]I'm loving it[/url] - sometimes these dead rubbers are where the climb back can start. SA are going to experiment, and are bound to lose a little edge, it's back down at ground level, and Cips is the Messiah.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 07:10
"At a time when he does not have a settled team or even know clearly what his strongest team is"

I don't think there's much doubt about what his strongest team is. We haven't ruled players out, but that seems a good thing.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 08:38
Eddie may well know what his 'best team' is - and I think you're right, we all know it, bar one or two arguments. And even those - Hartley/Robshaw/Brown - for example, can be settled by referring to the games he's won with them.

But the thing about a 'best team' is that virtually no rugby coach in the world gets to field their 'best team' - least of all England, given that their players are not centrally contracted. And Eddie wilfully exacerbates this problem by treating them England players like taxis - there'll be another one along in a minute.

The one thing that Eddie has absolutely no authority to claim in mitigation is that he's unable to field his best XV.

The damming thing is not that he doesn't have a settled team - it's that nobody has a clue what sort of team England are or what style of rugby they are trying to play.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 08:44
I don't think that you should even have a settled team 18 months - 2 years before a WC tbh. That's a long time for a good player to become international quality and and equally long time for the form of an established player to fall off a cliff. Largely settled elite squad fair enough.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 08:44
There is a bit of Graham Taylor about it for me. He does not seem the sort to ever back down and he has put himself into a corner with the likes of Brown (Carlton Palmer). It must have been really hard for him to drop Robshaw but you cannot afford favourites, whilst others are pulled off after just getting on. Roko got the boot having won man of the match. Wade and Robson have never been given a chance, and Armand gets 15 minutes or so. It is not working at the moment, so he needs to change. If he doesn't, then a group exit is on the cards.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 08:46
If Dylan gets fit will he be selected?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 09:34
"The one thing that Eddie has absolutely no authority to claim in mitigation is that he's unable to field his best XV. "

In fairness I don't think he has?

"The damming thing is not that he doesn't have a settled team - it's that nobody has a clue what sort of team England are or what style of rugby they are trying to play."

Could be a good thing. But IF he is driving these players in the way I think he is, then you wouldn't have a clue how they are going to play when they get to competition time. We probably won't get a hint until the AIs or even 6Ns.

 
HMilner
Big Dog (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 10:53
I am not a big Eddie Jones fan in terms of his shenanigans and love of toying with the media, other coaches etc. What I will say though which has been massively shown following the second test is that there is something mentality wise in the players that is wrong.

Twice now they have thrown away strong leads against the South Africans. Maybe the Boks are really galvanised at the moment under a new coach and with a first black captain and leader of men in Siya Kolisi but we are looking weak mentally.

This is personally why I do not see Farrell being a long term viable option as captain as for me he is best being led by someone more senior. As fantastic a player as he is he can be a bit petulent in his attitude and personally that wouldn't motivate me. In the same way Sexton calls all the Ireland shots but is not the captain material. We need to give the captaincy to someone like Launchbury for me. That hard working, calm type of personality to make the big decisions in games and who can, instead of trying to gee people up when it goes badly, calm them down and get their focus back.

Maybe I am wrong but I have always found I play better under leaders like that than those who are super intense and try to get you "pumped" etc! The mental capabilities needs to be addressed though as there seemed to be real panic stations again at times at the weekend.



Adopted players: 2017-18 Shaun Knight

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 11:27
Agree about Farrell. Johnson had his moments, in his younger days, but sorted it out in the end. However, there are not many options. I'd go with Itoje. I think the responsibility might change him for the better. A bit like Johnson. We might have to begin looking beyond the next WC. He is not on fire, but he's winning his ball and competing out there. He's still young and is going through a 2nd/3rd season drought. He sill has a great future ahead of him.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 11:40
Is Sexton really not captain material?!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 11:45
"that there is something mentality wise in the players that is wrong. "

I think it is fatigue. You make stupid mistakes when you are tired and under pressure. But that's the point, they will be tired and under pressure in the WC, hopefully the difference between England and everyone else is that they will be used to it.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 12:31
"It must have been really hard for him to drop Robshaw"

That was another thing that really annoyed me. Eddie talked about it in terms of Robshaw being 'dropped', when the obvious thing to do was to say, 'I know everything I need to know about Chris. I also know he needs a rest, and that I want to have a look at Brad Shields'.

Maybe that's Eddie's idea of motivation - but it seemed like an unnecessary humiliation to me. It's not like Chris Robshaw actually needs a kick up the @rse.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 13:12
The Robshaw of 2016 is just what we need right now. However, whilst some players develop with age and change their game, he seems to be trying the same things but with an older set of tools. I can't see him lasting until the World Cup.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 14:25
Love him or hate him, there was a really good interview with Brendon Venter on the Rugby Dungeon where he talks about how coaches who are under pressure tend to dump on the players - and that is the beginning of the end. He was hinting heavily around Eddie, but clear in his praise for Mark McCall who, when Sarries went through their long losing streak this season, kept the squad together and took heat away from players.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
19 June, 2018 16:39
The end of this tour can't come soon enough for Eddie. He's been the most out of form player in the England set up for a year now. Go away, re set things. You've got 4 months before we need to hear from you again.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
20 June, 2018 08:33
The problem is that the tour is not over. I can't see how he can survive a 40-10 defeat. He needs to freshen up the side for the last game. Try Robson, Cipriani, Farrell and Daly in midfield. Put May and Solomona on the wings and Woodward at full back. However, this won't solve the problem in the forwards. They are the best we have and they are not performing.

Some great back's moves have papered over the cracks. I worry that we are heading for a thrashing. It reminds me of the SCW Lions Tour.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
21 June, 2018 08:46
I think it's classic 'dead rubber' territory. England cricket team regularly used to win these games against Australia.

But getting a win might depend on how much SA experiment with their side. But if Eddie persists with all of Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Brown he has no choice but to get a win. If he ends up playing that lot and losing, then he'll have come back having learned absolutely zip while winning zip.

All he needs to do is to pick Robson and Cipriani; avoid talking about Youngs and Ford having been 'dropped' and refer to it as a great opportunity to learn about two players who could yet play a big part in the World Cup, and hope that SA take their eye off the ball a bit.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
21 June, 2018 08:49
BBC is reporting that it will be Robson and Cips - I guess we find out soon.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
21 June, 2018 09:21
Giving all the squad players a start might take some pressure off. I hope Solomona and Woodward get a real chance.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Eddie Jones
21 June, 2018 09:38
Quote:
BathMatt53
BBC is reporting that it will be Robson and Cips - I guess we find out soon.

If so then with Hughes at #8 that gives the team a great Wasps spine from 8-10. Team announced at 11.45am today...



Adopted players: 2017-18 T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?