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opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 09:36
...has been in charge of the England football team since September 2016 - he is now, effectively up to 3rd in the all-time England managers.

I've always felt it's a bit of a lie that coaches need to be given 2-3 years to achieve anything. Coaches/managers who take over a national team or a premier league team always seem to imply that they virtually have to teach their players how to catch/kick a ball, when the reality is that even the worst player in the squad is in the top few per cent of their chosen sport.

Eddie achieved similarly rapid success and was lauded for it - but so he should have done. There aren't really any excuses for his wheels having come off so quickly.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 09:50
The difference is that GS has refreshed his team and brought through a mass of young hungry new faces whereas Eddie kept lots of the existing team going and is now paying for it as other teams work them out and they look generally jaded. For the first time in a long while the England Football team looks like they would all give their right arm to be on that pitch.

As an aside, playing Raheem Sterling at the top of a 3-5-2 does remind me of putting Mike Brown on the wing - you can just see when he gets the ball in a strikers position that he isn't a striker...

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 09:54
Southgate's career has progressed through the England Youth(?) set up which has meant he was already well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of many of his players.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 10:06
Quote:
Boldangrey
Southgate's career has progressed through the England Youth(?) set up which has meant he was already well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of many of his players.

True - but Eddie Jones didn't come from nowhere - nor do any managers of international or premier league teams.

As regards Raheem Sterling - his net contribution to the win over Sweden was immense. Supporters of Mike Brown might argue the same thing. I wouldn't personally, but I can see that he brings a number of qualities to the side.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 10:15
Southgate has shown so much more class than Jones and comes across as a decent bloke.

Let's hope he can also be a winner as well.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 10:19
" but Eddie Jones didn't come from nowhere"

He came from Japan, that's pretty far away. My inclination is to think he's the exception rather than the rule. I can't think of that many other examples and the one that comes to mind, JC2 in 2003, was fairly short lived and really rather limited in terms of depth.

I think you might be over doing Gareth Southgate as well. You say he has been in charge for two years and, god knows, England could even go on to win the thing. If they do so they'll have beaten Tunisia, Paraguay, Columbia, Sweden, Croatia and France (I think). There probably have been easier routes, but not many. It's not like coming into the WC we were favourites.

I think putting together a game plan can probably be achieved pretty quick, but then you probably have to evolve that each year anyway. Putting together a team is a much longer process. Football and the international arena are probably different worlds in that respect.

 
nick holder
nick holder (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 10:22
He has also shown a significant amount of humility when dealing with his players and the media, something Jones has never had. He could learn a lot but as he is so obnoxious I don't suppose he ever bothers to reflect on his self image.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 10:31
Sterling runs all day and keeps the opposition honest. That will be needed against a Croatia side which looked out on their feet the other day. He could also do with some extra sessions with the mind doctor, as it looks to be a problem for him in front of goal. Fate might be that he scores the winner in the final.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 10:37
Quote:
Optimist
I've always felt it's a bit of a lie that coaches need to be given 2-3 years to achieve anything. Coaches/managers who take over a national team or a premier league team always seem to imply that they virtually have to teach their players how to catch/kick a ball, when the reality is that even the worst player in the squad is in the top few per cent of their chosen sport.
Out of interest - does anyone say that at the international level?
At club level - then absolutely; because you only get to make signings once a year; and have to honour existing contracts (unless you're willing to go the "night of the long knives" or the "contracts don't count on loan" route); so it takes a good 2 years to even get the players you want.

I'd also venture that football is a simpler game than rugby, so it takes less time for tactics to bed in and become instinctive.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 11:54
I think Southgate looked at his options and made a plan. Rather than pick Barkley or Wilshere as play makers and go through them, he decided to go with ball players at the back and wing backs. EJ always seems to have a plan but we do not have the grunt to execute the plan. We need more size in the backs or grunt in the pack to play the way EJ wants England to play. Do the players you pick dictate the tactics or the tactics dictate the players you pick?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 12:22
"I don't suppose he ever bothers to reflect on his self image."

Maybe he does but doesn't think it really makes much difference to his ability to coach?

I'd be delighted if Southgate disproves the saying "nice guys finish last", on more than one level, but it has occurred to me a couple of times.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 13:30
Southgate has never been stupid and he seems to have inspired a team or group. Everyone has bought into his methods and I'm sure he is an excellent man manager having been through the same sorts of mental anguish that may be around at the very top level in high stake games.
I think the squad ultimately respect him because he will have covered everything and they feel they can talk to him.
He still needed results to go for him...but now you think they are so glad to be part of a squad that is working and they have restored an awful lot of respect that we lost when supposedly golden generations blew it.
I'm sure the under age world cup winners have inspired them as well.

There is no doubt we can win it. A bit of luck one way or another is required...
I don't think we need fear anyone left or whether Southgate would allow that...

Jones is done. Imo.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 18:04
Gareth Southgate's success is quite definitely NOT overnight, he took over the U21's in 2013 so he has had a decent history with his young side. He has built on the introduction of young players from Roy Hodgson's time Sterling, Dier, Stones with Kane and Alli all started at that time.

Southgate has just dropped the bullying ways of previous managers, and got rid of anyone who was a bad influence and built a team.

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.

The fact that Harry Kane has a similar attitude is a massive bonus. It's a fantastic run lets hope it continues, My favourite: Harry Maguire, he may give the ball away at times but what he does the rest of the time is inspirational.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 18:12
Quote:
shipwrecked

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.


Remember that those guys became superstars, they all started out as bright young talents - aged 17 in the case of Rooney, 20 for Gerrard. You could be referring to Kane, Maguire, Rashford et al in the same way in a couple of WC's time. Even we were young once SW!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 20:00
Whatever happens on Wednesday, Southgate has brought pride back to the England team and got the country supporting them again.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 20:02
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.


Remember that those guys became superstars, they all started out as bright young talents - aged 17 in the case of Rooney, 20 for Gerrard. You could be referring to Kane, Maguire, Rashford et al in the same way in a couple of WC's time. Even we were young once SW!

In which case you'd want Southgate to keep doing what worked and bin them too and find the next generation. Given that most of that generation are already age group World Cup winners, that should not be too tough.

And I hope the FA adopt the model they lucked in to of appointing the next England coach as the U21 manager to bring him through along with the next generation of players. It worked a treat for Germany (until they fell into the same trap).



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 20:11
Quote:
shipwrecked
Gareth Southgate's success is quite definitely NOT overnight, he took over the U21's in 2013 so he has had a decent history with his young side. He has built on the introduction of young players from Roy Hodgson's time Sterling, Dier, Stones with Kane and Alli all started at that time.
Southgate has just dropped the bullying ways of previous managers, and got rid of anyone who was a bad influence and built a team.

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.

The fact that Harry Kane has a similar attitude is a massive bonus. It's a fantastic run lets hope it continues, My favourite: Harry Maguire, he may give the ball away at times but what he does the rest of the time is inspirational.


Phew SW. You came dangerously close to mentioning Baxter there.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
09 July, 2018 20:22
BnG, Now look what you have done!

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 08:08
It is a surreal world where all the qualities required to deal with the big issues of today are being demonstrated by a bunch of young men kicking a ball around in Russia and their manager but so sadly lacking in our so-called political 'leaders'

#garethforpm

It would be a landslide

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 09:18
I think any credible opposition would have a field day right now, unfortunately...

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 10:18
I think that Croatia are decent opposition don't you? Putting this thread back on track. winking smiley

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 12:18
Decent as in "not bad" or decent as in "potential world champions" Certainly the former, probably not the latter. Mind you, I don't think any of the teams left are consistently the latter.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 12:32
Agree that Belgium, England and Croatia are a bit left field but France surely are capable of more of the same:

Lloris, Matuidi, Pogba, Kanté, Dembele, Griezman, Mbappé, Fakir, Giroud all big names and some young ones too!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 12:43
Belgium are no 3 in the FIFA world rankings. If that's not a 'potential world champion' I don't know what is - they are only a squeak behind Brazil. Looking at the rankings it could be argued that only Germany are consistently the best, and look where that got them.

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 13:07
Gareth Southgate comes across very well and has a plan to get the best out of his limited resources. However using that as a stick to beat the, admittedly unlikable, EJ is a little unfair.

England have beaten Tunisia, Panama, Colombia, and Sweden in this world cup so far.

That's the equivalent of EJ's England having beaten Japan, Romania, Argentina, and Italy on route to a semi final with Scotland before a potential final against Wales or Ireland; the All Blacks, Australia, and South Africa all having been conveniently dispatched by someone else.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 13:09
Were any of you saying before the WC "Do you know who I reckon will win it... England/France/Belgium/Croatia (take your pick)."?

Clearly this isn't a WC to go with reputation.

"Looking at the rankings it could be argued that only Germany are consistently the best, and look where that got them."

Is that not an argument NOT to look at the ratings? Weakens your first point somewhat.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 13:36
Quote:
DanWiley
Were any of you saying before the WC "Do you know who I reckon will win it... England/France/Belgium/Croatia (take your pick)."?
Clearly this isn't a WC to go with reputation.

"Looking at the rankings it could be argued that only Germany are consistently the best, and look where that got them."

Is that not an argument NOT to look at the ratings? Weakens your first point somewhat.

My point was that Belgium are one of the best in the world - you mentioned consistency and they are consistently one of the best with some world class players. However, totally agree that this WC has been about form not reputation. Belgium have form as well as class and reputation.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 13:55
Were you really saying that 4 weeks ago?

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 14:12
Dan leaving Belgium out of it as no-one knew if Martinez could hack it at the time, but are you seriously saying France were never contenders for the World Cup?

You have to beat some good teams to win World trophies but not every good team, that is what the tournament is all about.

Stop digging Dan.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 14:28
I've always felt that France could be like... France and beat themselves.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 14:29
...they are 3rd in the world, they were in the top seeding group - anyone who thought they weren't any good just needs to look at the team. I'm not at all surprised to see them in the last 4. But, did I back Belgium at the bookies before the tournament started - no I did not, I thought that Germany would win it.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 15:21
Lots of other people didn't as well:

Pre-world cup odds

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 15:30
Quote:
DanWiley
Decent as in "not bad" or decent as in "potential world champions" Certainly the former, probably not the latter. Mind you, I don't think any of the teams left are consistently the latter.

With respect I think this just suggests a lack of knowledge and/or real interest in football on your part.

Both France and Belgium were touted as potential winners by some of the pundits. Even the world rankings which can be a little suspect would suggest they had to be considered as one of the top contenders.

You should also not disregard Croatia either as they are considered to be a very good team and have underperformed in recent years like our so called golden generation. They have many good individuals playing in top European club sides.

To be honest the real shock is England making the semi finals which shows what a good job Gareth Southgate has done.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 15:43
That plot above reflects my impression on the respective odds the majority of pundits were giving out. There's a few anomalies in there I'd agree, but not rally around the teams we're talking about.

France would be pretty firmly a 3rd tier, England Belgium 4th. 3rd tier might be an outside chance, 4th was nowhere.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 15:54
That plot has Peru significantly higher than both and, I would suggest, also has baked in the number of people betting.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 15:55
Quote:
DanWiley
That plot above reflects my impression on the respective odds the majority of pundits were giving out. There's a few anomalies in there I'd agree, but not rally around the teams we're talking about.
France would be pretty firmly a 3rd tier, England Belgium 4th. 3rd tier might be an outside chance, 4th was nowhere.

Have you actually watched Belgium or looked at the players in their squad? To refer to them as 4th tier with little chance was nonsense.

I'll agree that it was fair to refer to England as 4th tier and we have punched well above our weight.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 15:56
As I say, it has anomalies, I wouldn't put Brazil that high or at least I'd put Germany up there with them in terms of pre-world cup expectations. None the less, I still think it reflects where England, Belgium and Croatia lie in terms of pre-world cup chances. Nowhere. You can go back and look at the odds: Belgium 16/1, England 18/1. Those are not potential world cup winning odds.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:01
Holland were 16/1 before the 2010 world cup. France was 14/1 in 2006. Both made the final. Sure, they didn't win, but this clearly isn't out of the ordinary.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:04
hasta, are you basically saying you can't find a country with odds around 16/1 that have won the WC?


"To refer to them as 4th tier with little chance was nonsense. "

And yet that's where the odds put them, right next to England.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:09
Quote:
DanWiley
hasta, are you basically saying you can't find a country with odds around 16/1 that have won the WC?

"To refer to them as 4th tier with little chance was nonsense. "

And yet that's where the odds put them, right next to England.

So you are just making your assessment by referring to odds without ever having watched the teams in question or having any knowledge of their players? Bizarre indeed.

It's true that many of the pundits (guys who've actually played the game) went for Germany to win and have been proved wrong, however when pushed for alternatives both Belgium and France were mentioned as possible winners.

Brazil are nearly always bookies favourites because of previous success.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:12
Belgium were 10-1 with Skybet. Out of 32 teams I think that's pretty strong. The Belgian odds were also reflected in the fact that the pundits had them meeting Brazil, France then Germany in the final.

18/1 on England before the tournament was pretty terrible (25/1 with my preferred site and I didn't even fancy that)- the 'experts' thought that they would be lucky to get to the quarters.

Anyway, looking forward to a cracking couple of match-ups for tonight and tomorrow...then the final and VICTORY awaits!

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:12
I'm saying I can't find odds online before 2002. I can find odds of a team at 5000-1 winning the Premier League a couple of years ago. And I don't find odds compelling arguments for quality.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:16
"So you are just making your assessment by referring to odds without ever having watched the teams in question or having any knowledge of their players?"

No.

"however when pushed for alternatives both Belgium and France were mentioned as possible winners. "

Who did this with Belgium? I remember them being mentioned as "might do wells" not really "potential winners". If we're talking "might do well" you can expand that list quite a bit.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:20
At a certain stage of a tournament - league or cup, or a series - people will mutter about lucky draw this and jammy decision that. But once your name's on the trophy nobody spends much time analyzing who you beat or what the circumstances were, or which player was injured, or which goal was disallowed, or who had a lucky bounce of the ball.

It's one of the stupid things about sport - the performance and the side's qualities will simply be seen through the prism of the result. England were literally 3 inches from winning in normal time against Colombia and 3 inches from losing on penalties.

I'm sure if you actually trawled back through every World Cup, every game, every permutation of circumstances, you could discredit quite a lot of the winners. That's why you one in 4 or so are genuinely great tournaments - when the stars align for two genuinely great sides, peaking at the right moment, in opposite sides of the draw, devoid of calamities, and meeting in the final.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:21
Quote:
DanWiley
"So you are just making your assessment by referring to odds without ever having watched the teams in question or having any knowledge of their players?"
No.

"however when pushed for alternatives both Belgium and France were mentioned as possible winners. "

Who did this with Belgium? I remember them being mentioned as "might do wells" not really "potential winners". If we're talking "might do well" you can expand that list quite a bit.

I've watched so much relating to the world cup I can't be 100% sure, but I think it was Chris Sutton.

So you have watched Belgium then, so surely you have to agree they are an excellent side and now quite likely winners of the world cup? Ranked 3 in the world so it wouldn't be a surprise would it?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 16:23
"Belgium were 10-1 with Skybet. Out of 32 teams I think that's pretty strong"

Compared to a truly favourite nation? What were their odds on Germany? Or Brazil? I'd guess at least half that. Probably with the likes Spain in a tier below them and France below them, then Belgium.

To be honest though, I was originally pulled up for a comment on Croatia.


"And I don't find odds compelling arguments for quality."

We're not talking about quality though. We're talking about likelihood of winning.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 17:19
Belgium have been on the cusp for a few years now...simply because all the players they've got.
This is their golden generation, for sure.
I think France will win tonight
..
Expect a great game, Imo.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 18:18
Dan, please just relax, stop analysing and just go with it. Chance of a World Cup final, anything can happen.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 19:07
Brazil always are a favourite if only because people traditionally love the way they play. They only have to put a few decent results together and they are a team to respect as they play tournament football and will likely have a great player or two.
Germany just get on with it and win the thing and again, know all about how to win tournaments. So, you'll always fancy them because they find a way to win...
Belgium and France have been the pick of euro teams and it is no surprise they've made the last 4.
England expected to make the qtrs...

Once you get to last 8, you know a bit of luck gets you to the last 4 and then it it just 90 mins and anything can happen.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
10 July, 2018 22:46
Flipping typical, just because they a few kids get stuck in a hole for a few days they get given World Cup Final tickets (Sm31)

I bet they don't go on the basis of a sick note or something!

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 00:15
I can see England beating Croatia, but hard to see them unpicking that French defence if Hazard, de Bruyne and Fellaini had so little joy. Maybe backs to the wall and penalties is the way?

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 07:02
Not been a vintage world cup in terms of quality of performances which is one of the reasons why England have an outstanding chance.

The only certainty from this thread is ... 'boy, does Dan Wiley like an argument'.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 07:21
It's great to see how Southgate and his team have united the country and the joy on everyone's faces.

Almost don't want match time to come around in case it all goes pear shaped.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 08:00
Quote:
OutsideBath
It's great to see how Southgate and his team have united the country and the joy on everyone's faces.
....


+1 +1 +1 ..........

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 10:18
C'mon England.

It is amazing that we could get to the final ranked 12= in the World without having beaten anyone above us:
12= England
16 Columbia
20 Croatia
21 Tunisia
24 Sweden
55 Panama

It makes up for all those other times I guess.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 10:55
Quote:
jayeatman
C'mon England.
It is amazing that we could get to the final ranked 12= in the World without having beaten anyone above us:
12= England
16 Columbia
20 Croatia
21 Tunisia
24 Sweden
55 Panama

It makes up for all those other times I guess.
why isn't here no seeding in football?


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 11:00
[/quote]why isn't here no seeding in football?[/quote]

There is. Only all the top seeds lost / drew and either went out or ended up in second position meaning that by pure random chance one side was fairly strong and the other side fairly weak. Once in a lifetime randomness I would have thought....

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 11:16
Quote:
Which Tyler
Quote:
jayeatman
C'mon England.
It is amazing that we could get to the final ranked 12= in the World without having beaten anyone above us:
12= England
16 Columbia
20 Croatia
21 Tunisia
24 Sweden
55 Panama

It makes up for all those other times I guess.
why isn't here no seeding in football?

Why is there no seeding?..... why would you want seeding in the first place?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 11:20
Quote:
Beergoogles
The only certainty from this thread is ... 'boy, does Dan Wiley like an argument'.

That's not true. (Sm100)

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 12:04
Quote:
Boldangrey
Quote:
OutsideBath
It's great to see how Southgate and his team have united the country and the joy on everyone's faces.
....


+1 +1 +1 ..........

Completely agree but so sadly at a time when our so-called political 'leaders' are hell bent of fighting for own self-interest that is way out of tune with the rest of the country

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 13:07
[quote shipwrecked]why isn't here no seeding in football?[/quote]

Why is there no seeding?..... why would you want seeding in the first place?[/quote]sorry, bloody mobile keyboard; yes "why is there no seeding in football"

As for your follow up question, are you actually serious?



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 13:21
Of course, isn't it good for the likes of Iceland or Australia to have a chance of winning the world cup rather than TV companies maximising the broadcast revenues!

Its already seeded before they get to the finals so let them play I say!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 13:58
Quote:
Which Tyler
"why is there no seeding in football"

The world cup draw is seeded



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 14:13
The football World Cup is seeded in basically exactly the same way that the Rugby World Cup is.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 14:21
[quote BathMatt53][/quote]why is there no seeding in football?[/quote]

There is. Only all the top seeds lost / drew and either went out or ended up in second position meaning that by pure random chance one side was fairly strong and the other side fairly weak. Once in a lifetime randomness I would have thought....[/quote]Thank you, presumably then, it was seeded too far out if the 12 ranked team can end up as highest seed in their group?
Or is it that 4 better teams than England failed to even qualify?



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
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OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 14:35
[quote Which Tyler][quote BathMatt53][/quote]why is there no seeding in football?[/quote]

There is. Only all the top seeds lost / drew and either went out or ended up in second position meaning that by pure random chance one side was fairly strong and the other side fairly weak. Once in a lifetime randomness I would have thought....[/quote]Thank you, presumably then, it was seeded too far out if the 12 ranked team can end up as highest seed in their group?
Or is it that 4 better teams than England failed to even qualify?[/quote]

Spain/Germany are ranked higher than England and were expected to reach the semi finals from our side of the draw, but were both surprisingly knocked out.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 14:43
[quote Which Tyler][quote BathMatt53][/quote]why is there no seeding in football?[/quote]

There is. Only all the top seeds lost / drew and either went out or ended up in second position meaning that by pure random chance one side was fairly strong and the other side fairly weak. Once in a lifetime randomness I would have thought....[/quote]Thank you, presumably then, it was seeded too far out if the 12 ranked team can end up as highest seed in their group?
Or is it that 4 better teams than England failed to even qualify?[/quote]

We weren't the highest seed in our group, Belgium were (and they won it). We were in pot 2.

[www.goal.com]

Remember that some of the traditionally good teams (Italy, Netherlands) didn't qualify either, so there are fewer of the old guard in the 32 qualifiers anyway.

 
MESSAGES->author
jayeatman (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 15:42
If the seedings had gone to plan, we would have got Poland/Germany/Argentina ranked 6/1/4 not Columbia/Sweden/Croatia ranked 13/25/18



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 17:05
Quote:
BathMatt53

We weren't the highest seed in our group, Belgium were (and they won it). We were in pot 2.

[www.goal.com]

Remember that some of the traditionally good teams (Italy, Netherlands) didn't qualify either, so there are fewer of the old guard in the 32 qualifiers anyway.
Cheers


A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
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BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 21:49
Damn. Oh well there’s always next time...as Bath fans we are quite used to the feeling. This time year Rodders.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 22:23
What a shame, it was a blast while it lasted and we can feel pride in the England's team again.

I now have to support the French which really hurts as I couldn't stomach the diving Croats as world champions.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 22:29
What a shame!

(Sports psychology must be fascinating... Like Bath, England sat back and thought they could absorb it all. They didn't and it seems to rarely work. So why do teams persist in doing it?)

Nevertheless, that was a hoot. It's much better going in with lesser (realistic?) expectations and exceeding them, than our usual overblown expectations.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 23:16
It's a young team. They show every sign of being able to learn from their mistakes so I would expect them to do better next time out.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
11 July, 2018 23:51
At least no-one was traumatised for the next 30 years because they missed a penalty!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 07:21
Quote:
shipwrecked
At least no-one was traumatised for the next 30 years because they missed a penalty!

+1

Shame they have to go through the pointless and depressing 3rd/4th playoff.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 07:43
I think we scored a bit too early, got over excited, went for the jugular, missed the jugular and ran out of energy.

If you don't take your chances.....

Shame as it could have been 3-0 at half time and I think we could have defended that.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 07:47
The short passing game worked well. They went to the long ball game and the Croats were able to pick it off and coumter attack. Shame they persisted with this tactic.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 08:50
Croatia were the better team over the game as a whole unfortunately - they really upped their tempo after 45 mins as deserved the win.

Wonder who the team will be for the playoff?! Danny Welbeck leading the line I wonder?

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 09:08
England team is full of heart, full of energy, very organised and very well managed. However we lack quality when compared to the best teams, particularly in midfield.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 09:35
The Croatian players summed it up. They pressed and we reverted to type. I feel we needed someone of Loftus Cheek's size and drive in the midfield. We had a solid World Cup and made the most of our luck but will need to continue to improve, if we are to win things. Germany and Italy will sort things out by the next EC, Spain will come again and France look like they are ready to challenge for the next decade. This was a great chance missed.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 14:24
We got outnumbered in midfield, we bet our fast moving midfielders woukd negate theirs, which worked in the first half.
We should have taken off a forward early in the second half and helped out Henderson. Eventually all we did was replace him when we should have replaced a forward and also an advanced midfielder.
We allowed an older side with two extra time games in their legs to dominate.
I thought tactically we blew it.
This is a young side but we had a kind draw which is unlikely to present itself again...?
The next time getting to the semi's will be harder, especially in the euros.
Germany will regroup, the Belgiums and French will be at least as strong, the Italians and Spanish will come again.

Our U20 side are worldcup winners but we need to progress them. Other countries gave very good under age teams...namely Sweden so this was a gilt edged opportunity that we weren't good enough to take.
That is our tragedy. It was there for the taking.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
12 July, 2018 15:13
Quote:
Boldangrey
The short passing game worked well. They went to the long ball game and the Croats were able to pick it off and coumter attack. Shame they persisted with this tactic.

To a degree the Croats forced the long ball on us with their high pressing tactic. We couldn't find an answer to this particularly in the 2nd half and extra time.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
15 July, 2018 17:01
Well France are doing a pretty good job of showing us actually how far England were from lifting the cup...they are being clinical today.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
15 July, 2018 17:35
Quote:
BathMatt53
Well France are doing a pretty good job of showing us actually how far England were from lifting the cup...they are being clinical today.

Excellent performance from France (apart from a goalkeeping howler) and good for football in general that they won.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
15 July, 2018 18:47
Thought France looked very ordinary in the first half and were extremely lucky to go in ahead. After that Croatia had to go all out and, whilst it might have worked, it didn't and France were just the side to take advantage.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 12:09
On the evidence of that final...two very beatable sides.
Just not by us at this stage.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 12:25
Quote:
John Tee
On the evidence of that final...two very beatable sides.
Just not by us at this stage.

You are joking of course. France are well deserving of the title. No one has a player with the pace and threat of Mbappe, few have a player to match the inventiveness of Griezman and Pogba is one of the best for physical presence and clinical finishing. Their back line is one of the best defensively and each one a talented footballer

On that performance they would have beaten a much better team than Croatia who were excellent until they ran out of steam

Certainly far superior to England but we are improving, Southgate has done a brilliant job given the players he had available. He has instilled a fantastic team ethos and there are some great young players coming through the academy set up

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 12:47
Nope...tactical nievity and inexperience were our downfalls. That is to be expected in a young team but on the night in that final, I don't think those two teams demonstrated they are the best two teams in the world.
They may be close to it, but that was not a thrilling performance, Imo.

Mbappe has pace to burn but better sides will send him down blind channels. He may well get away once or twice but he was largely contained last night.
He may only need one chance to make the difference but he is not there yet.
Do I think France will get better, I'm sure they will and they may then go on to dominate but in terms of footballing brilliance, this world cup was pretty equal.
Do I think France were the best in the comp..yep and I tipped them, but it seems this was a world cup of teams in transition and no one was stand out. All works in progress. The Croats were as mature in any in there but they won't have those players 2 years on, and modric will be 34.

We missed an opportunity... Weren't good enough, but no one was really scary.
I'm glad the world cup was open...as the tournament was brilliant, for that reason.
I don't think that will be the way in 2 years time when teams have regrouped and have more experience.

Portugal won't have Ronaldo carrying them, and Spain have lost a lot of gifted players...their U20s were tonked by us, but I think they'll be there. The Germans won't accept their failures and Belgium will be there too only losing the likes of Company...? Italy...?
I think the Euros will be far harder to win than the world cup in 2 years time...?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 13:04
I agree. Had two lucky decisions gone against France I think we'd have seen a very different second half. France could only put in that performance because they were a goal ahead. Before they got in that fortunate position they looked second best.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 15:17
Croatia had dominance in terms of possession for much of the 1st half but didn't do much with it. France were excellent value for their win and had their keeper not given Croatia a little hope late on they would probably have scored 5 or 6.

Doubt England would have beaten France. Could be viewed as a missed opportunity but at least we have an England team worth watching now.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 15:21
I agree OB, I though France and Croatia did really well for 3rd or 4th tier teams!!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 15:53
"Croatia had dominance in terms of possession for much of the 1st half but didn't do much with it. "

They scored. Which had France not been gifted two goals could well have been enough to win given what Croatia allowed France to do in that first half. It's a bit dismissive just to say in terms of possession. I say that Croatia were, by some distance, the better team. I think the second half would have gone on that way had it been 1:0 at half time or even 1 all. Only when Croatia had to chase the game, giving France the space to play, did France look anything like "value for their win".


"Doubt England would have beaten France."

Well obviously. Or Croatia. Or Belgium. Or any one of many teams in the WC.

"Could be viewed as a missed opportunity but at least we have an England team worth watching now."

Do we? What did we do well? Who did we beat of note? Let's be honest, for all the shouting, England didn't actually play very well at all. I'd accept we don't have a team that is an embarrassment.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 16:44
Quote:
DanWiley
"Croatia had dominance in terms of possession for much of the 1st half but didn't do much with it. "
They scored. Which had France not been gifted two goals could well have been enough to win given what Croatia allowed France to do in that first half. It's a bit dismissive just to say in terms of possession. I say that Croatia were, by some distance, the better team. I think the second half would have gone on that way had it been 1:0 at half time or even 1 all. Only when Croatia had to chase the game, giving France the space to play, did France look anything like "value for their win".


"Doubt England would have beaten France."

Well obviously. Or Croatia. Or Belgium. Or any one of many teams in the WC.

"Could be viewed as a missed opportunity but at least we have an England team worth watching now."

Do we? What did we do well? Who did we beat of note? Let's be honest, for all the shouting, England didn't actually play very well at all. I'd accept we don't have a team that is an embarrassment.

If you can't see the improvements in England and how style of play is changing for the better it really proves how clueless you are on football. I doubt you've ever played the game.

Your constant belittling of England makes me wonder if deep down you're really pleased we lost to Croatia.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 17:27
"If you can't see the improvements in England and how style of play is changing for the better it really proves how clueless you are on football."

Go on then. List the aspects of our game that were actually good, say that that would impress/worry a top 8 team. Set pieces I'll accept. Any more?

I was delighted with how England progressed, but let's not kid ourselves it was because we played particularly well. We beat some poor to average teams and made hard work of that a couple of times.

"I doubt you've ever played the game."

Grow up, you sound like you've just come off the playground.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 17:43
I'm of the opinion that the standard wasn't that great...so we were competitive.
It may be that time proves we were better than that but I think better teams have won the world cup.
I didn't think even France were a stand out side...more that they were the best of the bunch.

For all that, the world cup was brilliant and it helps if we do well, for sure.

As said before, the euros should be much harder...

Having said that, you can only beat what is in front of you.
The positive thing was we put away a couple a potential banana skins

Will we make last 8 in 2020... Let's see. It isn't a given, Imo.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 18:38
Quote:
DanWiley
"If you can't see the improvements in England and how style of play is changing for the better it really proves how clueless you are on football."
Go on then. List the aspects of our game that were actually good, say that that would impress/worry a top 8 team. Set pieces I'll accept. Any more?

I was delighted with how England progressed, but let's not kid ourselves it was because we played particularly well. We beat some poor to average teams and made hard work of that a couple of times.

"I doubt you've ever played the game."

Grow up, you sound like you've just come off the playground.

I could list what I believe are the positives to be taken from England's run in the world cup and how we have improved from the last Euro's, but you just don't want to hear them as you prefer to focus on the negatives (I actually agree there are still a number of aspects that need fixing before the 2020 Euro's).

To be honest as usual we are on opposing sides of a discussion and I really can't be bothered to educate you on football so lets just agree to disagree and stop posting on this subject.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 18:46
Quote:
John Tee
As said before, the euros should be much harder...

I think you could well be right about this as France are a young side and will be even better, Germany surely can't fail again and Italy/Holland could well be in the mix. Not sure that Spain or Portugal will be as strong though.

Hopefully England's young team will learn from this experience and in 2 years time will be much stronger. We do need the PL clubs to give our U20/19/17 players more of a chance in their first teams though.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 18:59
If you don't want to discuss it, fine, just ignore my posts. But is pretty pathetic to say "you're ignorant" then express zero knowledge when asked.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 20:07
I'll list them OB, you can fill in the gaps.

1) We have a system that everyone understands, players, coaches but more importantly in my mind prospective players so everyone can target a role in the team.

2) The team know GS is not afraid to drop 'names' so the players have to prove themselves each game, no more picking on reputation.

3) Everyone is playing in their club positions no more squeezing people in because they are 'good players'.

4) We only have one big name that is Kane at the moment there is room for more but they will come into a side that plays as a team and have to fit into that team.
Thats what Belgium have done with Hazard, DeBruyne, Lukaku, France with Pogba, Mbappé, Griezman, Croatia with Modric, Persic and Rakitic. We don't have that core YET.

5) The team has reengaged with its supporters because they feel they are understood by their manager rather than bullied. GS has made the team realise they owe the supporters a performance.

6) The team know that they can win because the age group teams have won major competitions using Southgates methods based on the development of St Georges Park 6 years ago. biased as I am I think much credit should go to Trevor Brooking on that one.

Its a basis to go forward, that all most supporters ever wanted.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Gareth Southgate.
16 July, 2018 21:47
Point 3) is dubious in relation to Kyle Walker and Sterling I think SW?

Agree that their strength in contrast to the past was keeping it pretty simple and using hungry and hard working players. We didn’t have the creativity of most of the other top sides I thought though (lots of running around but very few killer balls the likes of Modric have in their locker). If I was writing their school report it would be a ‘B’ for effort I think.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

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