rugbyunion
Latest News:

The COML Message Board

The place for discussion, debate and nonsense about Bath Rugby.

Join our new Facebook Group today!

New visitors please read the house rules before posting

Test your prognostications at our Prediction League


Comeonmylovers.co.uk
Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged)

A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
02 August, 2018 13:22
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/08/2018 10:39 by P G Tips.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
02 August, 2018 22:41
As we learn more about the subject I'm beginning to think that other sports also need to make provision for this type of injury. Rugby (both codes), American football and Boxing are the obvious examples of sports where concussion can occur.

However, there seems to be growing evidence that Football has issues to consider as highlighted by Jeff Astle's dementia How often do heads get a bump in cricket from either the ball or the ground is that an issue?

Now we are aware medical tracking of players head injuries and the occurrence of 'dementia related' illnesses needs to occur straight away as there is about a 40 year gap between the two. Its all a bit scary isn't it.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
02 August, 2018 23:16
There is also a thing called "diffuse axonal injury" which seems to be associated with stretching of the neurons caused by the brain being rapidly rotated within the skull cavity. A direct blow to the head is not necessary for this to happen, a glancing blow is sufficient.

Edit - it turns out things have changed since I worked in this area and DAI is now much more broadly defined

[en.m.wikipedia.org]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2018 23:33 by joethefanatic.

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
03 August, 2018 08:28
Football is currently looking at concussion, about where rugby was 5-8 years ago
The evidence is there, but most heads are still in the sand, but some are shouting that they need to take it more seriously.

As for DAI, it's often lumped in with concussion these days under the mTBI tag. I absolutely agree that more information needs to be given to sportsmen that you don't need head contact to suffer mTBI

For me the bit that's going missing is that the vast majority of mTBI that I see in practice (which by definition creates selection bias) go hand in hand with undiagnosed whiplash, which then isn't treated as physicians and physics get hung up on the obvious, and easily testable mTBI



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
03 August, 2018 13:30
OK so if diagnosis and recording are an issue why not enforce all players to wear scrum caps!

Hold it WT i haven't finished...

....to wear scrum caps with an accelerometer integral so that impact intensity and direction can be recorded. That way you could asses the head impact without having to see it on video and it could be in real time if need be. That would cover the knee to the head in the scrum that wouldn't be seen with today's systems.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
03 August, 2018 13:37
I donít think you need a cap - seem to remember that the Sarries players all wore a teeny chip behind their ear last year (or the one before)?

Edit: found the article

[www.independent.co.uk]



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 13:41 by BathMatt53.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
03 August, 2018 16:17
Quote:
BathMatt53
I donít think you need a cap - seem to remember that the Sarries players all wore a teeny chip behind their ear last year (or the one before)?

Oh I see so it's behind the ears...that would make it on the shoulder then!



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
03 August, 2018 18:01
as BathMatt said - they experimented with that a couple of years ago, Sarries were one team in one sport who helped them with data gathering - as far as I'm aware the research has not been published yet. I can pretty much guarantee you that it won't be simple; and that it won't provide you with a diagnosis of concussion/mTBI any more than BMI provides you with a diagnosis of diabetes. It will be about ranges of forces leading to likelihoods of concussion in differing directions.
And no, behind the ear =/= shoulder - it means the mastoid process.

There is also some evidence that neck strengthening exercises, and that proprioceptive training exercises can reduce rates of concussion. There is also talk about saliva and blood testing for concussion - ultimately the best evidence currently is going through the existing psych and motor testings in an fMRI scanner - not exactly practical pitch-side



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 18:03 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
03 August, 2018 19:37
Quote:
Which Tyler
And no, behind the ear =/= shoulder - it means the mastoid process.


That was a joke WT i.e. Saracens having a chip on their shoulder. Well it made me laugh!



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
04 August, 2018 05:09
Ah, Sorry - a quick glance between patients towards the end of a long shift - managed to miss that completely



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
08 August, 2018 08:25
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Heading a football should be restricted in the professional game and banned for those under the age of 18, according to one of the world's leading experts on brain injuries.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
08 August, 2018 11:41
I have an awful lot of respect for the man - the trouble with his solution is very similar to arguments over banning tackling inage-grade rugby - you need to learn the niceties of the skill before being exposed to the full-on nature of adult sport - otherwise you're creating a much larger problem by having people with no engrained skills in the area, suddenly trying to learn them.
Wither eliminate the element from the game; or introduce it young enough that the impacts are much reduced and there' smuch more scope for both thraining and care-taking.

Graded exposure trumps all-or-nothing in pretty much every aspect of life.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 11:42 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
08 August, 2018 19:23
Quote:
Which Tyler
as BathMatt said - they experimented with that a couple of years ago, Sarries were one team in one sport who helped them with data gathering - as far as I'm aware the research has not been published yet. I can pretty much guarantee you that it won't be simple; and that it won't provide you with a diagnosis of concussion/mTBI any more than BMI provides you with a diagnosis of diabetes. It will be about ranges of forces leading to likelihoods of concussion in differing directions.

Whilst that is a really detailed piece of research yet to be published, I would cat doubt on its relevance.

What is needed is a historical accurate record of incidences of mTBI's, at the moment it's only the ones caught on camera or because it leaves a player on the floor.

No record of the impacts that don't lead to injury, or the invisible ones at ruck time. No comparison of data from year to year etc.

What is needed is an accelerometer chip that simply records the impact. Then look in detail at the mechanisms.

It's done for metres run etc. why not for life threatening injury? This IMV is a real threat to the game and we don't seem to know eve basic stats.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
08 August, 2018 21:35
Thatís what it was SW:

Encased in protective plastic, the device measures impact forces throughout the skull using a gyroscope and an accelerometer, which between them can sense the rotation, tilt, movement and speed applied to them.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
08 August, 2018 22:11
I get that Matt, it is how it is being used, or not used. What I'm advocating is the device being worn by ALL players then the results collated to give a background picture of the issue.

What did American Football do to establish they had a problem?



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
09 August, 2018 06:14
Itnwas a trial to test the validity, and gather initial data.
If it looks promising, I'm sure it will be extended further.

It isn't being widely used yet because we don't know if it's valid yet - and won't until the research has been gathered.

You also still seem to be massively oversimplifying the complexity of mTBI, and it's relationship to skull impact. It's not that simple, and even very precise measurements will still only lead to better knowledge of risk factors.
Personally, I'm interested to read that research when it comes out, but don't think it's a particularly promising line - I'm more interested in things like the saliva test which is theorised to show actual changes in brain metabolism; rather than the existence of an unreliable risk factor.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2018 06:19 by Which Tyler.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
09 August, 2018 07:16
I realise that WT, my question is quantifying the problem, how do you know if measures are effective if you don't have a baseline?

Does every player who is impacted respond in the same way? It just seems to me from your knowledge we are analysing in detail a few incidents rather than understanding the size of the problem.

It all seems a bit random and reactive to me.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
09 August, 2018 22:13
Quote:
shipwrecked
What did American Football do to establish they had a problem?

Seems as a result of autopsies on dead NFL players, problem is that it is only recently that the collisions have become more intense, due to rugby union players bulking up.

I have to say I enjoyed the era of rugby where contact avoidance was the norm as opposed to seeking contact to pull in defences.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: A LOOK AT CONCUSSION
12 August, 2018 15:52
[m.sport24.co.za]

Anything that the researchers can do to help prevent things like this has to be a good thing - very sad.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?