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rodoftherec
rodoftherec (IP Logged)

Hooper
07 November, 2018 16:13
Well the guidelines suggest start a new thread ! Why is this man featuring in our future ? I am sure he is a super bloke but what has he ever achieved - he was an average player and a below average on field captain. He reminds me of Lee Johnson at Bristol City - has a cosy relationship with the owner ( who knows why ?? ) but has no record of any sort of success, he can just talk the talk as others have said but a lot of us can do that !
Something does not ring true - no way he has any sort of qualification for a senior post at the club - the future looks bleak with him in it!

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 16:22
Quote:
rodoftherec
What has he ever achieved - he was an average player and a below average on field captain.

For a start, he played in the Leeds side that beat us in the Powergen Cup at Twickenham in 2005. And there are plenty of his peer group who are on record as saying he was an inspiration to play under, not to mention the fact he is Bath's longest serving captain.

Aside from that, I guess you have a point

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 16:51
Quote:
rodoftherec
Well the guidelines suggest start a new thread ! Why is this man featuring in our future ? I am sure he is a super bloke but what has he ever achieved - he was an average player and a below average on field captain. He reminds me of Lee Johnson at Bristol City - has a cosy relationship with the owner ( who knows why ?? ) but has no record of any sort of success, he can just talk the talk as others have said but a lot of us can do that !
Something does not ring true - no way he has any sort of qualification for a senior post at the club - the future looks bleak with him in it!

I'm curious. What is it that you think Hooper's job is?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 16:55
An inspiration to play under? Remind me when we won the Premiership under his on field leadership or anything else come to that?

If he was our longest serving captain, he should have had plenty of time to put things right and lead us to glory. Didn't happen as I recall.

So why will it happen with him as General Manager/Director of Rugby whatever he is called? Has he got a bona fide coaching qualification or any sort of management qualification? Has he had any such experience before and have a portfolio of success to wave around? I must have missed that.

Apart from seemingly saying the right things at he right time, he has done diddly squat to improve or change things for the better as far as I can see. That is why I for one am so worried, especially after his passionless, speechless touchline displays over the past two weekends. If he had any ideas, he certainly didn't try to help the team win those games although he was in an ideal position to communicate with the players.

He might be a very nice person, but I have never spoken to him nor have a number of other long term supporters I know. He doesn't come across as the most approachable or charismatic character. Far removed from a gresat communicator like Baxter or Young or Lam to name a few. Do the players truly like and respect him? I am not sure.

Very very concerning for the future of Bath Rugby.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 17:18
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Very very concerning for the future of Bath Rugby.

Why BoB, I don't know much about him so I was hoping for some fact to make up my mind, but in about 450 words of personal opinion I'm still no better off.

I know he represented the players when SB quit union, showed leadership then, he was an automatic pick when playing.

The rumour has it that Hooper will defer to Stuart Lancaster and Girvan Dempsey in rugby matters.

His role is:

Performance and Player Development Director - a role which includes supporting the coaching staff in developing player skills and running the Performance aspects of the Rugby department.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
rodoftherec
rodoftherec (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 17:30
Just for once I have to say that BoB has it spot on !

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 17:36
Remind me what sort of player Graham Henry was? Or Steve Hansen? Or Eddie Jones? Or Stuart Lancaster? Or Dave Rennie? Or Rob Baxter?

Remind me what sort of DoR Martin Johnson was?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 17:55
Just because great player doesn't equal great coach, doesn't mean that average player does equal great coach or dor or whatever.

We need a great person to sit at the top of our rugby pyramid and dictate all that goes below that. From there everything will follow.

Hooper could be that person, but he's no more likely than any one of many thousands people. In fact, given what we've seen of the club since he took up his role, he looks less likely than most of those.

My concern is he's getting the role because he's Bruce's yes man and ultimate fall guy.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 18:02
It does seem that some on the board are directly relating coaching ability with playing ability. As Hasta has pointed out they are not directly related. Do natural leaders make the best coaches again not necessarily.. but Stuart Hooper has not been suggested as head coach. The qualities required for a general manager seem more aligned with Hoopers skill set. One would assume that Bruce didn’t get where he is today without being able to identify a good managerial prospect. So I for one will wait and see if Bruce knows more about suitable managers than the posters on this board who have already declared his choice useless.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 18:16
Quote:
hasta
Remind me what sort of player Graham Henry was? Or Steve Hansen? Or Eddie Jones? Or Stuart Lancaster? Or Dave Rennie? Or Rob Baxter?
Remind me what sort of DoR Martin Johnson was?

Exactly & how good a coach was Martin Johnson despite an outstanding playing career. Besides, his role will not be head coach.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 18:29
No, head coaches come and go, the real talent we need is a DOR.

There's three possibilities:

We don't see hooper (or anyone else) as a a DoR. That's bad because we need one.

We do see hooper as our future DoR. That concerns me as I don't see what hooper had done to suggest he's got that unique talent, but I can believe he would let Bruce play with his trains.

We're getting in someone as a DoR, all this speculation is misguided and hopefully we're going places. This might be the case but the speculation knocking around seems to make the alternative a reasonable thing to discuss.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 18:46
What qualities does a Director of Rugby need then and what do they do? I'm not sure they all have the same role. While we are on it can someone name a good one.

All seems a bit arbitrary.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:00
I think we can all point to poor results and technical failings but I am intrigued to know why it is Hooper's fault and not any of the coaches who are more directly responsible for those issues.

No one seems concerned about the loss of 2 coaches at the end of the season and Girvan has been welcomed yet maybe Hooper had some input into those changes and deserves some credit if any is due?

I don't know Hooper or any players, just guessing and playing devils advocate as we are all just remote observers.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:20
The proof is in the pudding. Hooper has been in charge of our second string/United side during probably their worst period in a decade. They were regularly getting humped by 60 points last year, including at the Rec. This season they've won once, against Gloucester. Talented players being wasted, at A league and senior level.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:23
As I understand it Hoops will be in charge of rugby matters but will not be responsible with primary coaching. He will be responsible for employing the coaches and the buck will stop with him if the rugby department does not perform. His coaching credentials are non existent as he has admitted himself. He has worked with Lancaster in his Leeds days and no doubt he has learnt a lot from his playing days at Leeds and Bath under different coaches as to what sort of coach works and what doesn't.

It is a brave move not only for him but for Bruce and if it isn't Hoops then the alternative is Bruce or Tarquin meddling or another recruit from outside Bath and we have seen a fair few of those. I think there appears to be some coherent thinking in this decision and if Hoops can attract top coaches in his rugby department and we have consistency in the coaching dept it must be good news.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:40
I agree it's brave. I also also broadly agree with your definition of dor. He's the long term strategist, recruits coaches and players in order to play a given style. He's not in charge of implementing The next step in that strategy, that's where the coaches come in.

I also agree that people confuse these roles really easily, but they are completely distinct they have a focus and goals that are not the same. If you put a head coach, or any coach or even player, under a DoR who doesn't buy into his strategy, you're asking to fail, hence why it has to flow down from him. It's possible for a single person to do both roles, but you're asking a lot of them, particularly at this level.

Hooper dictating strategy to Lancaster or our current coaches? He'd have to be pretty inspirational.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:43
Quote:
ballsout
The proof is in the pudding. Hooper has been in charge of our second string/United side during probably their worst period in a decade. They were regularly getting humped by 60 points last year, including at the Rec. This season they've won once, against Gloucester. Talented players being wasted, at A league and senior level.

BO last season we had so many injuries that the match I watched had 13 uni kids against a half decent Quins side. Not even Wizbit could have pulled off that magic trick.

Having said that, this year we have been pants with a string (on paper) team so I agree with you.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:49
Quote:
DanWiley
I agree it's brave. I also also broadly agree with your definition of dor. He's the long term strategist, recruits coaches and players in order to play a given style. He's not in charge of implementing The next step in that strategy, that's where the coaches come in.
I also agree that people confuse these roles really easily, but they are completely distinct they have a focus and goals that are not the same. If you put a head coach, or any coach or even player, under a DoR who doesn't buy into his strategy, you're asking to fail, hence why it has to flow down from him. It's possible for a single person to do both roles, but you're asking a lot of them, particularly at this level.

Hooper dictating strategy to Lancaster or our current coaches? He'd have to be pretty inspirational.

I don't think he necessarily needs to be inspirational, as DOR he just needs to be clear about what the club vision is and what the associated success criteria are. It's the head coach's job to deliver that.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2018 19:50 by joethefanatic.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:53
Ok, fair enough. But can you see Dempsey taking that from someone someone with his experience?

The only way I can is if he's inspirational, not necessarily in a "God, Harry and st George!" Way, but he's got to have something about him I've not seen.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:56
To be clear, the dor isn't just seeing goals and measuring results. He's got to provide the strategy, that's why he gets big bucks and why he's more influential then the HC. That means, whilst the HC had an interest in recruitment, the dor has to have the final say, is his job.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 19:59
I am certain that the club see it aligned to David Humphreys/Johan Ackerman at Glaws. Ackerman is clearly the head coach and sets the rugby direction. Humphreys manages up and provides continuity.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 20:04
Not sure if this is the right thread but we have been pants for most of the season at all levels. So one could argue it isn't just Hoopers fault.

However, if SH is to be Bath's Alan Sugar in sole charge of the club's rugby matters and I assume results, he has surely to know what makes a top class, motivational coach and know how the technical points of the game need to be coached. I am fairly positive that he does not possess these knowledges but has been charged to hire and fire those that have to produce the goods. It is a bit of a poisoned challis and not for someone who has never experienced sustained success. Hooper may have many talents, but none of which are the successful management of a top class rugby club.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 20:24
Ironically he could have probably learnt more from stuff that hasn’t gone well, and let’s face it a lot hasn’t gone well in his time here.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 20:47
So BoB, you believe he lacks the coaching insight or experience necessary for his intended future role but don't like the fact that he is being given the chance to experience the issues and pressures by coaching in the PRC?

How is he supposed to gain that insight?

PG

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 21:15
IN answer to your a query PGTips = Elsewhere!

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 21:36
DoR and Head Coach are very different roles. A good head coach is not necessarily a good DoR.

I suspect the differentiating factor is supposed to be strategy (DoR) vs tactics (HC).

Plenty of fodder to suggest that tactically SH might be lacking. Much harder to pin failings on his strategic outlook, bearing in mind it is BC who is presumably setting the aims.

If he can get a coaching structure that can implement the necessary long-term improvements despite the short-term pressures that will inevitably arise, then he will be doing a good job. Given the club regularly chose him as Captain, I suspect he can get people to listen. Can he get people to change?



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 21:44
The club has tried the 'reboot' and it's always been 1 step forward and 2 steps back. This is a chance for 1 step forward and keep the momentum. Build some identity by promoting from within. Look at Leicester, their big name DOR signings haven't worked and our resident Exeter obsessive would recognise the value of building a culture and a playing style. Same with Sarries.

It's not about trying to recreate the glory days - that's gone and the only link is a load of photos in the bar and a lot of fans with long memories. We have tried short cuts and high profile signings and that on it's own doesn't work.

I am prepared to trust the judgement of people who know the bloke and have a plan.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 22:07
Quote:
Trawling
The club has tried the 'reboot' and it's always been 1 step forward and 2 steps back. This is a chance for 1 step forward and keep the momentum. Build some identity by promoting from within. Look at Leicester, their big name DOR signings haven't worked and our resident Exeter obsessive would recognise the value of building a culture and a playing style. Same with Sarries.
It's not about trying to recreate the glory days - that's gone and the only link is a load of photos in the bar and a lot of fans with long memories. We have tried short cuts and high profile signings and that on it's own doesn't work.

I am prepared to trust the judgement of people who know the bloke and have a plan.

+1



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 22:27
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Trawling
The club has tried the 'reboot' and it's always been 1 step forward and 2 steps back. This is a chance for 1 step forward and keep the momentum. Build some identity by promoting from within. Look at Leicester, their big name DOR signings haven't worked and our resident Exeter obsessive would recognise the value of building a culture and a playing style. Same with Sarries.
It's not about trying to recreate the glory days - that's gone and the only link is a load of photos in the bar and a lot of fans with long memories. We have tried short cuts and high profile signings and that on it's own doesn't work.

I am prepared to trust the judgement of people who know the bloke and have a plan.

+1

+2 That 's sort of my point but put in a much better way. The qualification for DoR are not certificates they are intangible. If you don't know the guy and how he works how can you have an opinion on his suitability.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 22:28
As if by magic, a fresh article about playing a sport vs managing in that sport.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
07 November, 2018 23:16
"Much harder to pin failings on his strategic outlook, "

If he's anything to do with our recruitment I'd say strategically he ain't Alexander the Great.

Tiggers had an internal culture from which they promoted. Do we really see a culture we want perpetuated in anything we've had under hooper's time?

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 00:09
In response to the original post, I know it's 'only football' but worth noting that Lee Johnson has managed three clubs and been pretty successful at all of them! As to Hooper's suitability as a future DOR, I'm willing to wait and see...

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 07:31
Trawling. Joe and Shipwrecked all have a point

Hooper is not even in post yet as DOR and some are rushing to damn him. The club has a medium to long term plan to build continuity, culture, a style of play - and success. Judging by the past two months, it is taking some time to bear fruit, but the idea is not a "quck fix".

The club evidently think he is the man for the job, as Exeter did Rob Baxter when they appointed him (among much sucking of teeth from many of their old guard, I am told). He may or may not be - it is too early to say yet.

PG

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 07:40
Part of the issue I think is his lack of charisma in public - if he was a bit more animated / outwardly enthusiastic I think that external people (such as those on this board) would warm to him more? As such he is accused of not really caring. He may be great fun in private but he doesn't exude dynamism / passion when on the touchline or post match. He is no Cockers / Steve Diamond / Alex Sanderson in that regard, but would you want that?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 08:05
Agree Matt, he is not - although in the case of Alex Sanderson I am not sure he is always animated either.

Sure- a Clive Woodward, Eddie Jones or Jim Mallinder is easier to warm to, but this time last year how many were praising Dean Richards? He delivers his post- match points in a flat monotone - but his results were pretty good!

Interestingly quite a few people made the same observation about Steve Borthwick- wonder what happened to him?

PG

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 08:26
I've said it before.

Continuity breeds success - Baxter McCall etc.

Hooper was universally respected as a captain and will have had a number of years at Bath in management learning the good an bad points of previous DoRs.

Seems to me an excellent pedigree to ultimately take over.

And more praise to the Club for revealing they have a long term plan rather than just 'Ooh, he's available. We'll have him.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 08:51
Are you SURE its not success breeds continuity?

Clearly it isn't as simple as keeping the same guy, you've got to get the right guy first.

If you want us to be the best, I presume that's the case, you've got to get the best DoR. Honestly, have you seen anything that suggests he's a rugby strategist of world class pedigree?

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 09:22
Fully agree Dan. Nothing Mr H has done at Bath, even as an on field captain, smacks of success to me. Did we win anything under his term as captain?

Much rather we took out time and recruited the best DofR we could find, not buggins choice and just because he is available and he apparently says the right thing to those in power.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 09:38
What chance has Hooper had to show his quality since his retirement? He's in the middle. United/2XV results prove nothing.

 
Danchinho
Danchinho (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 09:55
Quote:
Boldangrey
What chance has Hooper had to show his quality since his retirement? He's in the middle. United/2XV results prove nothing.

That goes both ways then doesn't it? What opportunity has he had to prove himself capable of the most important job at the club? To everyone posting, none.

Doesn't mean he won't be good, i'm sure everyone hopes he'll be amazing (obviously) but Bath isn't some small club on the edge of the championship looking to strike it lucky. It's one of the 'Big Teams' in the Prem.

The one thing i get stuck on, if he hasn't any experience of coaching, how does he know the tiny details that make up a great coach when he has to find a replacement?

Would Spurs hire Jermain Jenas as DoF and give him the job of hiring the right man to take over from Pochettino?

Jenas might be incredible as a DoF but you wouldn't know until he's a couple of years into the job and, in competitive sport, you can fall a fair way behind before you realise you've got the wrong man.

Or, if you're a wealthy club and well known, like Bath, you can target someone who has PROVEN to be a success elsewhere.

It's hardly a polemic POV.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 10:32
'Or, if you're a wealthy club and well known, like Bath, you can target someone who has PROVEN to be a success elsewhere.'

And that way you sacrifice continuity - or employ the person on a long (6year?) contract and tolerate a slow rise.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 10:48
Why do we want continuity with the current shower? Do you want people taking over with this mediocrity ingrained?

Yes we want continuity, that's what a DoR is all about, but only once we start actually going somewhere.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:03
And that'll only happen with a new coaching structure put in place.

 
MESSAGES->author
woodpecker (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:04
2 points, firstly is there a job description of a DoR- even if there is I assume that it will vary signficantly across clubs?

Secondly, there is nothing about Hooper which you can glean from either watching him play, captain, or post playing career that would make you think he would make a good DoR. However anyone who is anyone who knows him has singled him out as a good/great leader.

I guess I will have to take their word for it....for now

 
Overlap Knock-on
Overlap Knock-on (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:09
OK...first post but long time follower.

I am neither for nor against Hooper. Other clubs are hardly clamouring for his services which in most walks of life is telling. I have met him a few times and he was very pleasant, but I did sense that he had a cosy position on the Bruce Craig gravy train and was a corporate man - not ideal when some things clearly need changing. All that said, I would love to see an ex-Captain succeed at the highest levels of coaching and management and I trust, for now, that the club is happy with his appointment and I will cheer him on. So,for me, these would be the areas that need fixing and I hope he could articulate some answers.

- Why do quite a few players leave Bath and appear to improve?
- Why do some players with great pedigree fail to perform at the expected level for Bath?
- Why can't we take journey-men players and make them great as Exeter do?
- What is our style of play?
- Beechen Cliff is working brilliantly - how will this be integrated into the club?
- The A league/Academy matches matter to me - I don't sense the same from the club. Why?

Please don't shoot me down!

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:10
Anyone else think that a season in the division below might do us good and help sort out the wheat from the chaff? Start again from zero and create a new identity. Build from the bottom.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:15
There will be a new coaching structure. The club has announced two departures and Todd after next season. This is about Hooper and, at the risk of repetition and hiding my own post, he will not be involved in coaching but responsible for the coaches having the tools to get results in his department.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:18
Quote:
cb2
Anyone else think that a season in the division below might do us good and help sort out the wheat from the chaff? Start again from zero and create a new identity. Build from the bottom.

No. We shouldn't need a season below to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff - besides it just means that our best players would leave and we would end up with the chaff whilst the wheat went elsewhere.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 11:25
All good points Overlap - welcome.

As these questions are answered we will be able to judge how things are going. The jury is out at present of course- as results have been disappointing (understatement). Let's see how the next 3 months go.

PG

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 12:27
Quote:
P G Tips
All good points Overlap - welcome.
As these questions are answered we will be able to judge how things are going. The jury is out at present of course- as results have been disappointing (understatement). Let's see how the next 3 months go.
PG

Yes all good questions Overlap, we will soon beat that out of you on here!

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 12:32
Quote:
cb2
Anyone else think that a season in the division below might do us good and help sort out the wheat from the chaff? Start again from zero and create a new identity. Build from the bottom.

Not ideal in a lot of ways, but yes that might do us a lot more good in the long term.

Quote:
Overlap Knock-on
- Why do quite a few players leave Bath and appear to improve?
- Why do some players with great pedigree fail to perform at the expected level for Bath?
- Why can't we take journey-men players and make them great as Exeter do?
- What is our style of play?

Good questions. Don't expect many answers though.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 12:38
I still don't understand why we have a thread questioning Hooper's ability as a back room manager but not other threads naming the 1st team coaches.

It seems pretty persistent and carries on from the time he was a player/captain. Is this coffee cup chats with players in town or just blinkered criticism because there has to be someone to blame and he seems an easy target with a role some cannot understand?

He could be a problem, I can't argue that, but I don't see any solid reasoning other than joining up dots to form a pre conceived picture.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 12:46
Not intending to shoot you down:

"Why do quite a few players leave Bath and appear to improve?"
Players just improve up to a certain age in general. Players leaving a club are typically unhappy so tend to improve as their situation does, but we don't have THAT many leaving. People also notice those that leave AND improve more. Those that leave and do about the same or play worse are forgotten about pretty quick. Have you any examples in mind? Of those that have left I see a reasonable mix of fortunes.


"Why do some players with great pedigree fail to perform at the expected level for Bath? "
I think this is something we can improve on, we seem to go after the big names before we've got the core of our squad performing. We want to win the HC without going through the steps to get there. I think that's wrong. I think big names also have their minds on bigger things.

"Why can't we take journey-men players and make them great as Exeter do? "
Exeter are the exception. From what I can see they analyse the current laws, work out a simple game play that is effective in that context. Then drill to get the basics right in order to achieve that plan. Obviously, if it was as simple as that, we'd all do it, but that's the core of it for me. Why don't we do it? As above, I think we look to the big quick win without getting the core of our game in place first.

"The A league/Academy matches matter to me - I don't sense the same from the club. Why? "
Does it come back to the big quick win without getting the fundamentals in place first again?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 12:46
The first question is confirmation bias I think. Plenty leave and don't improve. Lots of the ones who leave are either at the start of their careers (so would naturally improve) or the end (and would naturally decline).

Improvers include Woodburn, Hastings, Fearns, Abendanon (although he was good for us anyway), Devoto? With others such as P James, D Wilson, Day, Banners, Webber, Auterac, Ford?, Tapuai? W Homer? not showing obvious improvement. Some others were just injured all the time so its hard to compare (such as Spencer).

Second question is the massive one and is concerning. Why pay mega money for a superstar player if he will be hamstrung by the way that he is coached or plays on the pitch?

Third one: Stooke, Roko, Obano, James Wilson would be recent examples of players who were not big names / playing well but came through at Bath.

Fourth. No idea as we never seem to be allowed to / able to play it



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 12:50
"I still don't understand why we have a thread questioning Hooper's ability as a back room manager but not other threads naming the 1st team coaches. "

I think our coaches do get plenty of stick.

Rightly or wrongly Hooper is rumoured to be the future for our top job. IF he's going to be a back room middle for the foreseeable future, I don't think we have a problem.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 13:14
Quote:
BathMatt53
Third one: Stooke, Roko, Obano, James Wilson would be recent examples of players who were not big names / playing well but came through at Bath.

Not sure you can include James Wilson in that. He played as well as he ever played at Saints.

Stooke, Roko and Obano, sure, but the trouble is other clubs have their own, and more.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 13:29
Accepted - like Kahn I was just thinking of them as players who had lost their mojo, in the case of Wilson he had dropped down a league to Nottingham.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 13:47
Stooke? Brew? Max Green seems to have been a good signing.

 
Overlap Knock-on
Overlap Knock-on (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 19:23
[i][/i]
Quote:
DanWiley
Not intending to shoot you down:
"Why do quite a few players leave Bath and appear to improve?"
Players just improve up to a certain age in general. Players leaving a club are typically unhappy so tend to improve as their situation does, but we don't have THAT many leaving. People also notice those that leave AND improve more. Those that leave and do about the same or play worse are forgotten about pretty quick. Have you any examples in mind? Of those that have left I see a reasonable mix of fortunes.


"Why do some players with great pedigree fail to perform at the expected level for Bath? "
I think this is something we can improve on, we seem to go after the big names before we've got the core of our squad performing. We want to win the HC without going through the steps to get there. I think that's wrong. I think big names also have their minds on bigger things.

"Why can't we take journey-men players and make them great as Exeter do? "
Exeter are the exception. From what I can see they analyse the current laws, work out a simple game play that is effective in that context. Then drill to get the basics right in order to achieve that plan. Obviously, if it was as simple as that, we'd all do it, but that's the core of it for me. Why don't we do it? As above, I think we look to the big quick win without getting the core of our game in place first.

"The A league/Academy matches matter to me - I don't sense the same from the club. Why? "
Does it come back to the big quick win without getting the fundamentals in place first again?


Hi Dan. Thanks for the reply. I suppose you could argue that we have made good signings and improved players...however...the elephant in the room is that we lose....a lot. Your Exeter observation is spot on, but I cannot be the only person to find them incredibly boring to watch. I miss Mike Ford's style of play at the Rec - always entertaining.

 
Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 21:25
Quote:
BathMatt53
Others such as P James, D Wilson, Day, Banners, Webber, Auterac, Ford?, Tapuai? W Homer?
James and Wilson were towards the end of their careers and we’d seen the best of both.
Webber is doing fine at Sale, as is Banas at Glaws and Benny Taps at Quins. Homer has just been the catalyst for try of the season just this weekend. Ford is pure quality anyway. The only one who’s disappointed is Auterac, sadly.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
08 November, 2018 21:48
I think that the question was whether players had got noticeably better (obvious improvement) after they left Bath. Homer just ran a ball on his line, got tackled and passed it - lovely team try for sure but doesn’t make him a world beater IMO. The rest may have remained equivalent (at best in the case of Webber - he was an international with us remember) but that is what you would expect.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 09:13
We had a great year with Ford (an average one and a poor one) and it was good to watch. I'm always concerned that such expansive play is often going to come up short at a very high level. Reminds me of Oz, some great play, but can't play the numbers when they need to. I guess NZ get that right, they play the right game, putting the hard work in when required but able to cut lose when its on.

Domestically, it's interesting. Sarries have got a bit like NZ in that respect. They used to have a dull game based around sucking the life out of a team through relentless defence. The guidance to refs changes and (possibly coincidentally, though it seems quite lucky) they've changed their game to one that builds on their defence with the ability to really attack.

It will be interesting to see if Exeter can adapt. I also wonder if, 9 times out of 10, Exeter's game will be great for 95% of the season but just lack the ability to take it to the next level for those games (finals) where you really meet qualify opposition focused on winning. If that's the case, can Exeter add that bigger game to the basic game, as Sarries have added the attacking dimension to theirs, without sacrificing their basic game? It seems less likely to me, you build a conservative game around holding onto the ball and getting the basics right, can you also add to that the ability to take risk and and so something special? Feels like a challenge.

I think Exeter's squad is in a similar position, they are mostly decent players, playing as more than the sum of their parts. I suspect you can't ask them to be Danny Cipriani. Moreover, can you add Danny to such a team without mucking up your whole philosophy?

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 10:02
Good point, Dan. That is Exe's next test.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 11:13
Exeter's next test is figuring out how to remain competitive when half their squad have their contracts up and will want more money.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 12:29
The problem then becomes a question of why someone should want to come to us. Why should a player who is performing for his club, move to Bath? It can only be for money or for a chance to play first team rugby. We have had no success for years and we have a poor history of developing young players. Things need to change.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 12:39
Bath is a nice place to live and bring up your family, I would have thought that counts for something alongside the facilities at Farleigh etc. If you want to win something there are only 2 clubs you would go to, of the rest I can't imagine that Bath is any less attractive than Saints or Quins or Sale, for example?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 13:13
Saints and Quins have recently won multiple trophies. Bath has a culture where being average is good enough, and it needs to change.

 
fat lock
fat lock (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 13:30
Sorry BO - i think we have a culture aspiring to be average.
If we could be average I'm sure it would be spun as a great success.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 13:39
My apologies, you're right

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 13:40
"Exeter's next test is figuring out how to remain competitive when half their squad have their contracts up and will want more money."

That's easy, if they keep to their current form, they say goodbye to the stars that want money above their team and you bring in the next generation. From what I've seen Baxter is well into that. That puts it back to the original point, can you ever reach the absolute top if you don't bring in and retain stars?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 13:42
Quote:
ballsout
Saints and Quins have recently won multiple trophies.

If a player would decide that quins winning the premiership in 2011/12 and the Euro challenge cup in 2010-11 makes them a significantly better prospect of success than Bath then they are crazy. Same goes for Saints. At best all 3 of those teams are average at the moment and none of them look like being anything but average IMO.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Tomato Soup
Tomato Soup (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 13:55
That Stuart Hooper fellow is such a great bloke. He only has to open his mouth and he has the team convinced that they are the best team since 1989.

His motivational skills are second to none and inspire not only those he comes into direct contact with but reach as far as some posters on a well known forum you may have heard of.

If Stuart was a Brexit negotiator the EU would be paying us to leave.

There. That should "balance out" a few posts.

Fill your boots.

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 17:10
Face-Palm. Not clever, not funny, doesn't move the discussion on.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 17:22
What do the success criteria for a new DoR look like? Especially for one who is tasked with overhauling a clubs systems and procedures. Do you measure matches won, or points scored and conceded? Or are they less concrete than that, to do with ethos, playing style and (dare i say it) satisfaction of the supporters. Lots of us hark back to "open, attractive rugby" but we didn't win much playing that way. IIRC our glory years were about frightening the opposition to death.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 18:08
Quote:
joethefanatic
What do the success criteria for a new DoR look like? Especially for one who is tasked with overhauling a clubs systems and procedures. Do you measure matches won, or points scored and conceded? Or are they less concrete than that, to do with ethos, playing style and (dare i say it) satisfaction of the supporters. Lots of us hark back to "open, attractive rugby" but we didn't win much playing that way. IIRC our glory years were about frightening the opposition to death.

We won our last trophy playing that way but then again we had a decent pack go play that way. Also even the games we lost at least we tried to play rugby. Better than looking like a team who’d only just met the week before, playing no rugby, and losing.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 18:36
And even put out a top quality side most of the time. Only changed due to injuries.

Not now of course as someone might get hurt or cannot play on the surface used by a third of the Premiership. Should we pay a third of the guys salaries sober can recruit others to cover for the so called stars?



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
Long Term
Long Term (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 18:54
(Sm119)

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 19:37
It's a very brave strategy announcing the appointment of Hooper. Will either be inspired with Baxter/Exeter results, or be a complete disaster. I really don't know.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
bcd1981
bcd1981 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 20:27
Quote:
Bathovalballer
And even put out a top quality side most of the time. Only changed due to injuries.
Not now of course as someone might get hurt or cannot play on the surface used by a third of the Premiership. Should we pay a third of the guys salaries sober can recruit others to cover for the so called stars?

Which teams are playing on plastic? I think there's only 3. How many teams in the league? I counted 12.

Now I'm rubbish at maths but even I know that 3 out of 12 is not a third. Unless I forgot to include the usual hyberbole and unproven exaggeration.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 21:41
Am I wrong but thought Sarries, Newcastle, Worcester and Bristol definitely play on Plastic pitches and Sale may be? That is either a third or more if I am right. But still the question is why can't Bath play rugby like even one of those sides in plastic and if and when they appear in the fixture list, will we always concede the game? Very poor form as plastic pitches are likely to become the majority on due course, even possibly at the Rec. Now that would be interesting if we conceded every home game because of the risk to our players health at the laughable plastic pitched fortress Bath, so we had to win every game away to win the league. I don't think so!



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 21:47
If you are talking maths 4 play on plastic. That’s 4 from 22 games, 18%.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:04
Still will we concede even 18%? And what if we have a plastic pitch at fortress Rec?



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
Olly_L
BathLad (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:19
Sarries, Worcester and Newcastle play on plastic. 13%.

Gloucester play on a hybrid which i think will be what the Rec is in the future, doubt a full plastic pitch unless they compromise in planning. The playing side of the club certainly don't speak fondly of plastic pitches.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:20
The rec is going to be desso.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:20
Bristol play on Plastic if I am not mistaken.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:31
Guideline 3 violation BoB feel free to start a new thread on our players and artificial services. Your continual posts on this subject are getting monotonous on this thread which is about Stuart Hooper. Thank you.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:37
Still haven't had an answer about us wanting to play on other surfaces. This whole situation is completely indefensible.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 22:40
Start a new thread BoB if you require answers.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
09 November, 2018 23:03
Not that I'm finding this a particularly interesting topic- dull and largely irrelevant- but Bristol play on grass. I don't think plastic pitches are allowed in the EFL.

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
10 November, 2018 01:10
Boring but ackherwerly Brizzle play on a hybrid pitch.
JtF - spot on.

Night night

 
JFPC
JFPC (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
10 November, 2018 09:44
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Still haven't had an answer about us wanting to play on other surfaces. This whole situation is completely indefensible.

And you haven't answered the point about the stupidity of wanting to sack the entire coaching and management staff mid-season.

 
JFPC
JFPC (IP Logged)

Re: Hooper
10 November, 2018 09:47
Apologies that I bought this over from another thread but as Hooper is one of those in Bovb's firing line I thought it was relevant.


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