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BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

England vs ABs
08 November, 2018 07:36
Whoever is going to play 12 for England they will be up against SBW. I think that pretty much guarantees Eddie going for Teo again in the hope that he can repeat his Lions physicality?

[www.bbc.co.uk]

New Zealand XV:

Damian McKenzie;
Ben Smith,
Jack Goodhue,
Sonny Bill Williams,
Rieko Ioane;
Beauden Barrett,
Aaron Smith;
Karl Tu'inukuafe,
Codie Taylor,
Owen Franks,
Sam Whitelock,
Brodie Retallick,
Liam Squire,
Ardie Savea,
Kieran Read (captain).

Athletic / mobile looking back row for them.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
ken_jnr
ken_jnr (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
08 November, 2018 07:58
There isnít much filler in that squad. The front row look unspectacular and the midfield could yield considering SBWís recent injury record and Goodhueís inexperience internationally. These look like scratches rather than holes in their armour though and England will have to be very good to subdue all of their runners.

 
fat lock
fat lock (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
08 November, 2018 08:20
Struck me that Ken's post could apply to England too. 'Weaknesses' are in similar areas, just that the ABs are on another level.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
08 November, 2018 09:12
That ABs second row pairing is exceptional in any era. Tough, mobile, good footballers. And of course the miracle man Mr Barrett at fly half. Great team and will be interesting to see how England match up or not.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
Danchinho
Danchinho (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
08 November, 2018 09:43
I expect it to be very tight for 50-60 minutes. I think we'll play with plenty of line speed and make it hard for them to get any flow. This lot have had a full season so there's plenty of miles in their legs. I expect we'll test D-Mac under the high ball too.



I probably don't know what i'm talking about.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 14:54
Good start. Weather being a good equaliser so far.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 15:08
SBW goes off

15 v 0

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 15:22
Farrell kicks ball out on full when clock is in red: ABs score a penalty after the resulting play

HT

15 v 10



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 15:24 by Mike the Taxi.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 15:31
Blimey, wonít be many who predicted that scoreline at halftime

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:20
DISGRACEFUL DECISIOB BY THE CHEATING SAFFA TMO

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:20
Underhill try disallowed for offside!

15 v 16

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:21
I canít believe that was offside. For me that was JUST ok as he picked up the ball.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:27
FT

15 v 16

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:27
Two penalties ignored at the end too.
Utter robbery yet again.

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:28
Quote:
BathMatt53
I canít believe that was offside. For me that was JUST ok as he picked up the ball.
That's because it wasn't.
TMO has the deeds to a NZ mansion in his hands as we type.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:29
Didnít score a single point in the second half though, tough to win test matches like that.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:30
Who was the TMO? SH, by any chance?

To beat NZ you need to be great and you need to be lucky. You can't achieve it with just one.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:32
TMO was a Saffa.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:35
Best possible result for eng. Should gve them confidence without thinking they're world beaters. Loss of composure at the end (and Jamie Georges darts) cost them that game. They'll learn.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 16:38
Quote:
Dorset Boy
TMO was a Saffa.

Jaco Peyper? Still remember his attempted intervention on the SBW charge on Ant's head.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:00
"We was robbed" just about sums it up. - I did't watch but listened with half an ear on 5-Live- but don't think that England performance was anything to be ashamed or embarrassed about - they fought like tigers the whole match right up to the last few seconds, as of course every team should do when faced with an apparently superior opponent.

P.S. One of my sons was there doing corporate stuff. Apparently, the full hosp package is £6k a head- RFU raking it in. Do hope more of their millions of profit gets distributed to the amateur side of the game and also supporting those who get permanently injured, or have to retire early. Not just recycled to the elite.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:06
Quite simply England were cheated by the TMO who proved he isn't fit for purpose.

Some TMO's are ruining the game with their desire to be centre of attention.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 17:09 by OutsideBath.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:08
Lawes was not behind the back foot. Iím sorry but itís true. We lost it at the lineout.

Such a shame for Underhill, what a game!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:21
Yes, our Sam was excellent, even with his cheek hanging off. I never thought he would have the legs and guile to turn BB out for the non-try and he tackled like a beast all game.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
guernseyfan
guernseyfan (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:32
Lawas was clearly onside at the time the ball was picked up. Thatís the clear fact. It wasnít even debatable.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:35
Quote:
joethefanatic
Best possible result for eng. Should gve them confidence without thinking they're world beaters. Loss of composure at the end (and Jamie Georges darts) cost them that game. They'll learn.

But they won't learn because they never do.

I agree that taking Hartley off looked dodgy now...and the failure to get field goal position but there are many parts of the team that are tactically brain dead and always will be.

We got schooled in certain areas and whilst it was a very creditable effort and we matched them in the game, we made poor critical decisions.

You want to know why Shields plays it is because it is hoped he will play a dominant role in decisions. Same as
why Hartley still gets the nod.
Lawes played the position far better, Imv, so Shields isn't the form player.

That 5% critical decisions that the NZ have, we don't.
But don't pretend we will learn because we haven't since the start of Lancaster's reign. Imo.

 
Luddite
Luddite (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:35
There were times when English players were offside but weren't penalised.
The charge down was from an offside position.

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:36
What's even more annoying with calling offside with a TMO is that for probably more than half the game someone is offside at every ruck.

To allow it slide in those cases and then penalise it only when it leads to a try suggests the priorities are wrong (and it's not treated fairly - the same offence should have the same degree of scrutiny and the same punishment).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:38
Quote:
guernseyfan
Lawas was clearly onside at the time the ball was picked up. Thatís the clear fact. It wasnít even debatable.

Agreed - I am absolutely raging[u][/u] about the iniquity of that call. We were feckin' robbed and how I feel makes no difference to the result but I will be raging for a day or two or longer hereafter. As if it wasn't bad enough being a Bath supporter, Jeesus...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Ian E
Ian E (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:44
How many times were the ABís off side yet no penalty. Sam was excellent one of his best games I thought Ewels also did well. Iím not a fan of Shields given his size I expect more from him.

 
BathBurger
BathBurger (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:44
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
guernseyfan
Lawas was clearly onside at the time the ball was picked up. Thatís the clear fact. It wasnít even debatable.

Agreed - I am absolutely raging[u][/u] about the iniquity of that call. We were feckin' robbed and how I feel makes no difference to the result but I will be raging for a day or two or longer hereafter. As if it wasn't bad enough being a Bath supporter, Jeesus...

Emotions are clearly high after such a close game, but heís obviously not behind the back foot of the ruck. Heís offside.

I do feel your pain however.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 17:46
Quote:
BathBurger
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
guernseyfan
Lawas was clearly onside at the time the ball was picked up. Thatís the clear fact. It wasnít even debatable.

Agreed - I am absolutely raging[u][/u] about the iniquity of that call. We were feckin' robbed and how I feel makes no difference to the result but I will be raging for a day or two or longer hereafter. As if it wasn't bad enough being a Bath supporter, Jeesus...

Emotions are clearly high after such a close game, but heís obviously not behind the back foot of the ruck. Heís offside.

I do feel your pain however.

My daughter texted me with the same opinion, I think she is wrong as well...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 18:20
If the teams had been reversed, the TMO would NEVER have called it offside. It was close but the ball was out before it was picked up, so you go with when it was out, and at that point Lawes was clearly onside.
Yet another atrocious decision from a Union official that has benefited the ABs. The best side in rugby history but also the luckiest by a country mile or 100.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 18:21
Felt that call could have gone either way. Probably marginally off, was it clear and obvious? Either way I'm really not sure the TMO has added value to the game, that wasn't foul play, it wasn't in the act of scoring a try and you still get people disagreeing about decisions.

Retallick man-marking Itoje in the lineout was superb in the second half. Lineouts and restarts is where England lost that. Oh and lawes' moronic flap of the ball to Slade when we were getting into position for a drop goal.

 
Dave Berko
Dave Berko (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:02
Quote:
hasta
Felt that call could have gone either way. Probably marginally off, was it clear and obvious? Either way I'm really not sure the TMO has added value to the game, that wasn't foul play, it wasn't in the act of scoring a try and you still get people disagreeing about decisions.
Retallick man-marking Itoje in the lineout was superb in the second half. Lineouts and restarts is where England lost that. Oh and lawes' moronic flap of the ball to Slade when we were getting into position for a drop goal.

Man marking Itoje etc totally agree with. That's partly why they're so bl**dy good. Able to adapt on the pitch. To say Lawes 'moronic flap etc' is more than harsh. Could have been a run in try if it had come off!!

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:10
Quote:
hasta
Felt that call could have gone either way. Probably marginally off, was it clear and obvious? Either way I'm really not sure the TMO has added value to the game, that wasn't foul play, it wasn't in the act of scoring a try and you still get people disagreeing about decisions.
Retallick man-marking Itoje in the lineout was superb in the second half. Lineouts and restarts is where England lost that. Oh and lawes' moronic flap of the ball to Slade when we were getting into position for a drop goal.
Agree, tough call.
But if Farrell was lining up the drop goal..
.which he certainly should have been, why wasn't the whole team geared up for that.
I believe that is where England lack leadership...and have for too long.
You can't make people leaders if they aren't natural leaders. And we don't have them, Imv no matter how much you try to talk up senior players.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:11
Looking at all the results today there is not much between the hemispheres, some great tries in the Scotland game, if we are looking for a centre I'd take Radradra in a heart beat.

Great result for England, especially considering we have stronger players to come back. You have got to love Sam Underhill, he is a wrecking ball when he gets going!



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
ilovebathtime
ilovebathtime (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:13
The camera wasn't level so I'm not sure how the TMO could hve been sure either away. I thought he may have been offside, but it was too close for the TMO to rule it out I'd have thought.

Certainly NZ got a lot of the 50/50 calls, and none of their lineouts looked that straight.

Even though it didn't come off I'm glad England went to the corner from the penalty. I thought the way our maul was going it was the right decision.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:15
Quote:
Dave Berko
Quote:
hasta
Felt that call could have gone either way. Probably marginally off, was it clear and obvious? Either way I'm really not sure the TMO has added value to the game, that wasn't foul play, it wasn't in the act of scoring a try and you still get people disagreeing about decisions.
Retallick man-marking Itoje in the lineout was superb in the second half. Lineouts and restarts is where England lost that. Oh and lawes' moronic flap of the ball to Slade when we were getting into position for a drop goal.

Man marking Itoje etc totally agree with. That's partly why they're so bl**dy good. Able to adapt on the pitch. To say Lawes 'moronic flap etc' is more than harsh. Could have been a run in try if it had come off!!

It was moronic because it wasn't the percentage play (and I don't agree it was a run-in, NZ had cover). Farrell was back in the pocket. The TCUP call was (as 2003) drive it up give Care good ball to spin back. Lawes decision was poor and his skill was poor, just as Shields' was in attack last week.

@John Tee, Farrell was lined up. Some of the team knew what they were doing. Others didn't. I blame coaching for that, not captaincy.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:16
Why oh why didn't we kick for goal instead of resulting in two failed lineout drives? Even Woodward said we should have gone for goal, putting us ahead if kicked, and build the score at that stage of the game. Just like Bath, our lineout drive is rarely effective and much better to take the opportunity of a near given 3 penalty points. We would have then won without Underhill's 'score'.

Mind you Sam played out of his skin and should be a nailed on starter for the next 5-10 years for England and possibly the Lions. Brilliant pure openside play and what I have never witnessed before, his ability to carry and had the skill and pace to turn Barrett inside out on his run in. Fabulous and for the first time in a while, I was able to puff my chest out and proclaim how proud I felt that he is a BATH player. Now please repeat that performance every week for Bath Sam.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 19:22 by Bathovalballer.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:21
To be fair the maul in the first half which resulted in the try was one of the best I have seen in a long time. Unstoppable (legally).



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:29
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
Dave Berko
Quote:
hasta
Felt that call could have gone either way. Probably marginally off, was it clear and obvious? Either way I'm really not sure the TMO has added value to the game, that wasn't foul play, it wasn't in the act of scoring a try and you still get people disagreeing about decisions.
Retallick man-marking Itoje in the lineout was superb in the second half. Lineouts and restarts is where England lost that. Oh and lawes' moronic flap of the ball to Slade when we were getting into position for a drop goal.

Man marking Itoje etc totally agree with. That's partly why they're so bl**dy good. Able to adapt on the pitch. To say Lawes 'moronic flap etc' is more than harsh. Could have been a run in try if it had come off!!

It was moronic because it wasn't the percentage play (and I don't agree it was a run-in, NZ had cover). Farrell was back in the pocket. The TCUP call was (as 2003) drive it up give Care good ball to spin back. Lawes decision was poor and his skill was poor, just as Shields' was in attack last week.

@John Tee, Farrell was lined up. Some of the team knew what they were doing. Others didn't. I blame coaching for that, not captaincy.

Don't agree, the coaches can't have any influence on the way that played out, the players would have to be on their own. It isn't like they could call a time out to reset.
If that decision is done to coaches...then that further makes my point about England not having leaders.
The 10 should have been directing that....telling the forwards where they had to get to. Screaming at them so they were all onboard.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:31
Ahead at 60 minutes but lost. Familiar?

FWIW I don't think Lawes ever got behind the back foot so I didn't have problem with the offside.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:45
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
Dave Berko
Quote:
hasta
Felt that call could have gone either way. Probably marginally off, was it clear and obvious? Either way I'm really not sure the TMO has added value to the game, that wasn't foul play, it wasn't in the act of scoring a try and you still get people disagreeing about decisions.
Retallick man-marking Itoje in the lineout was superb in the second half. Lineouts and restarts is where England lost that. Oh and lawes' moronic flap of the ball to Slade when we were getting into position for a drop goal.

Man marking Itoje etc totally agree with. That's partly why they're so bl**dy good. Able to adapt on the pitch. To say Lawes 'moronic flap etc' is more than harsh. Could have been a run in try if it had come off!!

It was moronic because it wasn't the percentage play (and I don't agree it was a run-in, NZ had cover). Farrell was back in the pocket. The TCUP call was (as 2003) drive it up give Care good ball to spin back. Lawes decision was poor and his skill was poor, just as Shields' was in attack last week.

@John Tee, Farrell was lined up. Some of the team knew what they were doing. Others didn't. I blame coaching for that, not captaincy.

Don't agree, the coaches can't have any influence on the way that played out, the players would have to be on their own. It isn't like they could call a time out to reset.
If that decision is done to coaches...then that further makes my point about England not having leaders.
The 10 should have been directing that....telling the forwards where they had to get to. Screaming at them so they were all onboard.

The problem was Ford was the 10 and Farrell was the likely drop kicker at 12.

The first decision was to put Farrell in a first receiver position.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 19:58
Re that try. Thought Underhill jinking through to score and turn BB inside out was brilliant and should have been allowed for that alone...coming from a player who wasn't thought to bring anything else bar tackling and spoiling.

Now that would have been one for the showreel.. Lol

 
Reccing Ball
Reccing Ball (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 20:04
According to the ruck offside example on world rugby you need to be behind the rear foot of your own team. Lawes was definitely behind the feet of the one English player in the ruck.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 20:11
Ford's actually a better drop goal kicker in general. My point wrt coaching is that the whole team should know in a drop goal scenario what the plan is before they go out on the field.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 20:19
I'm saying lack of leadership cost us because the players couldn't organise it. Makes a bit of a nonsense of Jones assertion that he thinks he has leaders. But then I think Jones will say anything.

The players need to take on responsibility, they couldn't or can't and at the very critical times, that will cost us.

Barret had never kicked a dropped goal but he managed it.

I thought it was a very good collective performance though...but...if you are going to be picky, we lack experience, considering we have experience in the team.

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 20:25
Sam has been linking and offloading all season for us. Definitely something worked on over the summer. Amazing game from him.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 21:09
Quote:
hasta
Ford's actually a better drop goal kicker in general. My point wrt coaching is that the whole team should know in a drop goal scenario what the plan is before they go out on the field.

Correct.

SCW in his autobiography(sigh) talks about the drill his RWC winners practised for this. A series of zigzags recycling the ball up the field until Jonny was in position for the DG.

Defences may be faster these days, but I'm sure Eng will have a similar system as one of their contingencies.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 21:55
Reviewing on the replay Lawes may well have been offside.

Unfortunately, that was one of only about 3 offside calls in the entire match - during which offside within the ruck, at the fringe of the ruck and midfield was the norm - so a correct decision in letter of the law, but completely inconsistent in the context of the match.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 22:04 by P G Tips.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 22:16
Quote:
Reccing Ball
According to the ruck offside example on world rugby you need to be behind the rear foot of your own team. Lawes was definitely behind the feet of the one English player in the ruck.

The law was changed earlier this year:

Offside lines are created at a tackle when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball, which is on the ground. Each teamís offside line runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any player in the tackle or on their feet over the ball. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 22:22
If Farrels convertion had been a few inches the other side of the post..... get over it. @#$%& happens and it's not the world cup.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 22:27
Looking closely at the ruck, Lawes left foot is onside, his right foot would have been offside but was actually in the air. It was only even close because the England player caught in the ruck was pushed back on the ground as the ball was picked up. The other England players were well onside and Lawes only looked offside because he anticipated the pickup and there was no protection for the scrum half.

I really don't think a penalty would have been given if roles were reversed.

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 22:33
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Why oh why didn't we kick for goal instead of resulting in two failed lineout drives? Even Woodward said we should have gone for goal, putting us ahead if kicked, and build the score at that stage of the game. Just like Bath, our lineout drive is rarely effective and much better to take the opportunity of a near given 3 penalty points. We would have then won without Underhill's 'score'.
Mind you Sam played out of his skin and should be a nailed on starter for the next 5-10 years for England and possibly the Lions. Brilliant pure openside play and what I have never witnessed before, his ability to carry and had the skill and pace to turn Barrett inside out on his run in. Fabulous and for the first time in a while, I was able to puff my chest out and proclaim how proud I felt that he is a BATH player. Now please repeat that performance every week for Bath Sam.

Is there a reason why when the England team is published they donít state the clubs they all play for? Iím sure they used to do so & whilst we regular supporters of a club know who they all play for it should be of interest to the solely England supporters & at the same time provide some publicity for the clubs who after all provide all the players.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
10 November, 2018 22:47
Not sure Bath Hammer - the official RFU release did:


England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Teío (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).

Finishers

16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 07:29
Thatís interesting. It never seems to be published in the papers nor on most online sources.The much maligned Stuart Barnes often mentions the teams they play for in his commentary but others rarely do so. My son is principally a football follower,West Ham like me, but is interested in England internationals. However, I canít instill any interest in Bath Rugby or the club game although he will accompany me to the odd match, particularly at Twickenham. He isnít interested in talking about our players nor their England connections. I have come across others like him & feel if there was more connection between England ďstarsĒ & the clubs they play for it might stimulate that interest.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 08:16
Anyone any thoughs about the headlong rush to go for driving mauls by teams when penalties would/should when within 50 metres result in a definite 3 points over a possible 7? The AB's kicked for goal which gave them the lead and as it turned out, the match as well.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 08:41
The ABs also turned down 3 and took a scrum which ultimately resulted in their try. It also seems to work ok for Exeter. Horses for courses.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
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shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 09:28
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Anyone any thoughs about the headlong rush to go for driving mauls by teams when penalties would/should when within 50 metres result in a definite 3 points over a possible 7? The AB's kicked for goal which gave them the lead and as it turned out, the match as well.

I think that is right, it's a consequence of the points system, take 3 or go for 7, the fact that England took the wrong choice is different. As far as England were concerned they scored from an identical position earlier, Farrell consulted but the B team goofed, that's rugby.

It also shows that your second choice players make a huge difference to the result BoB, not having your first team on the pitch through injury or choice changes the result.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
tomsutton
tomsutton (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 10:40
Quote:
P G Tips
Reviewing on the replay Lawes may well have been offside.
Unfortunately, that was one of only about 3 offside calls in the entire match - during which offside within the ruck, at the fringe of the ruck and midfield was the norm - so a correct decision in letter of the law, but completely inconsistent in the context of the match.

PG

Completely agree PG. It's the lack of consistency that's most frustrating, e.g early in the match NZ 'lazy runners' getting in the way and not being pinged - costing us several penalty opportunities - as well as midfield defence being routinely beyond the back foot.

Tom Sutton

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 10:51
Quote:
tomsutton
Quote:
P G Tips
Reviewing on the replay Lawes may well have been offside.
Unfortunately, that was one of only about 3 offside calls in the entire match - during which offside within the ruck, at the fringe of the ruck and midfield was the norm - so a correct decision in letter of the law, but completely inconsistent in the context of the match.

PG

Completely agree PG. It's the lack of consistency that's most frustrating, e.g early in the match NZ 'lazy runners' getting in the way and not being pinged - costing us several penalty opportunities - as well as midfield defence being routinely beyond the back foot.

Tom Sutton

Agree, I also cant make up my mind about the TMO use which seems prolific. If you deny a try for offside seen by the AR then surely the AR must penalise ALL offsides. He would become the offside ref.

That would be correct of course but would ruin the game with constant stoppages or is it a bit like high tackles, you would learn to build it into the game.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 10:57
Have to agree with John Tee about Sam Underhill's turning Barrett inside out was a thing of beauty and a great finish, he is getting better and better, Anthony Watson would have been proud of that.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 12:08
As I said Shipwreck, it made me proud that he is a BATH player. Haven't been able to say that recently.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
MESSAGES->author
TCM2007 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 12:24
Quote:
shipwrecked

Agree, I also cant make up my mind about the TMO use which seems prolific. If you deny a try for offside seen by the AR then surely the AR must penalise ALL offsides. He would become the offside ref.

That would be correct of course but would ruin the game with constant stoppages or is it a bit like high tackles, you would learn to build it into the game.

The TMO is supposed to be restricted to the build up to a try, or serious foul play. So he could have spotted a dozen other offsides and he would not have been in a position to report them.



Stuart

Former ed.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 12:57
Yes Stuart but how far back? Thats sort of my point.

You could say that the scrum shouldn't have occurred because of offside at the previous breakdown, I know that is extreme but the TMO is deciding on cms and being used at nearly every score.

I'd like to see it used in the same way as a cricket referral, 3 or 5 referrals per game captain decides.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 13:56
Stephen Jones/Sunday Times writes "England were subject to a total injustice". I agree 100%...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
Trawling
Trawling (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 15:48
The comedy value of Stephen Jones' column is a gift that keeps on giving. He was on the wrong side of the big referee decision for the second week running. Everything he writes is through the lens of the rugby world as he thinks it should be and an attempt to explain things away when facts get in the way.

It is an inevitable consequence of video reviews in all sports that minor infringements which get missed or overlooked most of the time will be picked up and assume crucial importance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2018 15:50 by Trawling.

 
Kidney Stone
Kidney Stone (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 17:32
Thought SU was clear Motm even before the try. He was everywhere,great shift.

Ewels did ok during his stint.Zac was unlucky to not be ahead of Shields who offered limited contribution imo.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 21:29
England's future is NOT Shields and why he was rushed into consideration is unbelievable. He is no more than a journeyman in my view. Hopefully Zach could be the answer but not yet. He has to get stronger and needs to start taking the odd lineout ball.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
Boldangrey
Boldangrey (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 21:34
Zac frequently takes line out ball at Bath!!!

 
sid the seagull
sid the seagull (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
11 November, 2018 23:41
Would like to think rationale is; ZM young no need to put useless miles on the clock for that one, better play BS to soak it up, as BoB says, he isnít the future.
As for the the result/decision, karma init.

HOP

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 03:56
Quote:
sid the seagull
Would like to think rationale is; ZM young no need to put useless miles on the clock for that one, better play BS to soak it up, as BoB says, he isnít the future.
As for the the result/decision, karma init.

HOP

Brad Shields is 27. I would think he's very much part of the future, at least until the 2023 RWC. My assumption is that he and Chris Robshaw will contest the 6 shirt for the next few years although Mark Wilson has been so remarkable at 8 that he may leapfrog both of them.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 07:01
Robshaw is 32, he's not playing on behind the next world cup.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 15:13
The current balance in the back row is good...
It has taken on two very good packs who ask different questions.
I'd think they are the men in position and that includes Shields.
Curry has been unlucky but is young enough...
Also, Willis should recover. They are the future Imo, but do you want them ripped apart by the best teams in a friendly. I include Mercer in that as soon as England get away from.playingbthe biggest 8 they can find.
Look at the AB's. They are fit and mobile. Along with the likes of Simmonds, I'd pick mobile ball players who had not too much bulk.
Far easier to find than an 18St plus man. If you get both, bonus, but Wilson has set quite a benchmark which others can follow.
The reason the ab's score late in the game is because they are more mobile, Imv.
Of course, size has a part, so there is a limit to how small but England have some very promising finds because BV and Hughes, our default options, are currently out.

It is a bit worrying that a coach never considered such an approach. It seems like lazy selection too...?

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 15:44
Quote:
John Tee
The current balance in the back row is good...
It has taken on two very good packs who ask different questions.
I'd think they are the men in position and that includes Shields.
Curry has been unlucky but is young enough...
Also, Willis should recover.

Not sure I get what you mean here?

Quote:
John Tee

It is a bit worrying that a coach never considered such an approach. It seems like lazy selection too...?

I think Eddie had to work with what he had, which was Billy V, Robshaw and Haskell, Curry, Mercer, Underhill et al are all very recent young finds that fit that style of back row play.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 19:29
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
John Tee
The current balance in the back row is good...
It has taken on two very good packs who ask different questions.
I'd think they are the men in position and that includes Shields.
Curry has been unlucky but is young enough...
Also, Willis should recover.

Not sure I get what you mean here?

Quote:
John Tee

It is a bit worrying that a coach never considered such an approach. It seems like lazy selection too...?

I think Eddie had to work with what he had, which was Billy V, Robshaw and Haskell, Curry, Mercer, Underhibac

et al are all very recent young finds that fit that style of back row play.

I mean that the balance of the back row has always been issue. That mean playing itoje and Lawes there.
We've never had balance or found a 7. Curry and Underhill are more 7's than we've had, I think.

So, collectively, and Shields is part of that these last two games, we've played two very good packs.
Boks are huge and AB's very mobile.

Jones wanted a big carrier and has pretty much picked Lancaster's forwards. Now, they may be the best players but not the best pack.
I think, all round...and George's throwing not withstanding.. the pack defended and competed very well.
If they can do that throughout the 6Nations then we don't have to sweat on BV for the rwc. Our game plan can change and Jones has stumbled on a formation that he was never looking at.
For an international standard coach...I kind of expected more than the previous coaches picks and defaulting to England traditional strengths...which fell over this last year,.. So in that sense, I thought he should have shown more..
He only made changes because he was forced to...so in that sense, lucky and 'lazy' Imo

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 20:11
OK I get the second bit but where does Willis come in?



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
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hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 21:40
I really hope we never see Lawes or Itoje at 6 again. It's an awful selection.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
12 November, 2018 22:56
Alongside Robshaw, yes, Lawes /Itoje make for a lumbering back row. But with a Curry or to a slightly lesser extent, Underhill, at 7, and the mobile Wilson at 8, I think it can work.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 00:24
Opti, you seem to be developing a liking for playing our lads out of position, you fancied JJ at wing previously and now its Daly at 15 and Lawes/Itoje at 6. Your arguments seem reasonable however, I would prefer players to stay in their regular club positions.

My thinking is that given International rugby is faster isn't it better for decisions to be repeated instinctive one rather than having to think them through in the frantic heat of international competition.

I understand the demand for Daly at 15 but just think we are seeing some indecision and lack of confidence in his play recently. Why should we persist with the selection, not that it will affect Eddie in the slightest just curious.

PS Itoje and Lawes are too slow off the mark to play in the back row in my view.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 08:28
I think there's always A case for getting your best players on the pitch - though it's certainly not an infallible policy. Anyone remember SCW putting Mike Catt on the wing against Ireland?

For me Daly has to be in the team - if we had an absolute world-class full-back, then Daly would still be a starter for me - whether at wing or outside centre.

He hasn't been perfect at full-back - but I think he's one of those players who suffers from a bit of the 'superstar syndrome'. Slade is another - they are so highly talented that people are waiting for them to sidestep 6 people and run in from 50 metres untouched, and when they don't they are judged a bit of a disappointment.

Sure he needs more experience at full back, but i really do think that's an investment that can pay off massively. And that game against NZ was probably the most difficult game a full-back can ever play. It was filthy wet, and defensively, NZ come at you from blood-twisting angles. He came out fairly unscathed - so what's to say he can't make that position his own?

I'm less inclined to call for JJ on the wing now - injury notwithstanding, he's shown less undroppability for a while now, and in the mean time Jonny May has proven himself very close to world-class.

I'm not so bothered about crow-barring Lawes in. It's slightly frustrating to have a player as good and experienced as Lawes kicking his heels on the bench - but forwards can make a big impact in the final 20, and covering 4,5, 6 makes him a great 'finisher'. But say you had Launchbury and Kruis playing their absolute best rugby - wouldn't you want both of them plus Itoje on the park? It's not like Shields has made himself undroppable.

And then there's the fact that World Cup squads require 3-4 players who can authentically cover different positions.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 08:52
Not sure that Kruis and Slade need to be in the side. They both lack that extra bit, when playing against the best. In this order - Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Kruis. As for the backs. I have thought hard about this and the one guy who can play 15 for us, who is solid enough under the high ball and can help our attack is Alex Goode. It's too late for Woodward and the others have failed to nail down the position. I was pushing for Ashton but have changed my mind to Goode. Surely a good guy to be around a WC squad as well.

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 08:54
Quote:
Optimist
For me Daly has to be in the team... but I think he's one of those players who suffers from a bit of the 'superstar syndrome'.

But if he is a superstar, you'd at least expect him to be better than the alternatives.

But in his England appearances, he's been outshone on the wing by Ant and Jonny May, in the centres by JJ and at full back by Mike Brown, even.

He really isn't a superstar. He's a good Prem level player. Likewise Slade.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 09:06
"He's a good Prem level player" ... and British Lion.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 09:48
Daly reminds me of Balshaw. We asked him to defend at 15, and he was pretty poor at this. This then influenced his attacking confidence at times. Why ask Daly, who is a very good outside centre and wing, to play at 15? Of course he will have to take high balls on the wing, but it is far more lonely at 15.

I agree with Optimist - Daly has to play. He is still our best wing and best outside centre. I would play him at 13 against Japan, unless they get ambitious and try Marchant there and Daly on the wing.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 10:12
I think the problem is that he's very badly exposed at 15 under the high ball.

I thought Slade played very well on saturday - the ability to have a second distributor and kicking option at 13 helped Farrell out a lot.

The reality is that the team need two distribution/kicking options. Assuming Goode is not playing fullback, that means Ford/Farrell at 10/12 or Farrell/Slade at 10/13.

 
Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 10:28
One thing about Slade is that he can tackle and jackel, is good under a high ball and also has a seige gun left foot, but not Daly's fastest pace. Personally, I wonder if Slade could play fullback? I saw him do it once or twice on his early Chief's career and he wasn't bad. What he lacks in pace he makes up with his handling and all round footballing skills but can never be considered a truly explosive runner like Tuilagi. However, I suppose it is too close to the WCup, and as he plays most of his club rugby at centre, for there to be radical changes. Interesting conundrum for any coach to best use the talents of those available to him.



Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa Rokoduguni

The Rock that is Semesa and how he will be rocking this season.

 
P G Tips
P G Tips (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 10:42
Actually BoB that is a highly attractive and worthwhile idea IMHO. Not necessarily for the top tier matches, but I can certainly see him lining up at 15 in a RWC against quite a few nations.

He has considerable game vision as well as the physical attributes you mention and full back might give him the space to convert his breaks into a potent running threat.

PG

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 10:45
For me, BoB, Slade is another who you just have to get in the side. I actually think the backs are coming together - but Slade could easily have 10-15 more caps by now, and Daly 10-15 more games' experience at 15, if Eddie hadn't been so obtuse about Brown in particular.

A back '4' of Slade, May, Daly, Watson could absolutely terrify defences. And the midfield can perm any 2 of Ford/Faz/Teo/Tuilagi and complete a great attacking picture.

Of course, you've got to defend. But no England pack is ever going to win less than 50% of the ball, so i'd much rather focus on scoring.

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 11:18
Quote:
shipwrecked
OK I get the second bit but where does Willis come in?

I think Willis is the same sort of player Curry is...but for injury, I think he'd be near the England squad with the players we have missing or would be there or thereabouts for consideration for the rwc.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 11:29
Quote:
Optimist
For me, BoB, Slade is another who you just have to get in the side. I actually think the backs are coming together - but Slade could easily have 10-15 more caps by now, and Daly 10-15 more games' experience at 15, if Eddie hadn't been so obtuse about Brown in particular.
A back '4' of Slade, May, Daly, Watson could absolutely terrify defences. And the midfield can perm any 2 of Ford/Faz/Teo/Tuilagi and complete a great attacking picture.

Of course, you've got to defend. But no England pack is ever going to win less than 50% of the ball, so i'd much rather focus on scoring.

I like the ideas but didn't the England pack do exactly that against South Africa? 40% v 60% was the stat I recall

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 11:55
Quote:
Optimist
For me, BoB, Slade is another who you just have to get in the side. I actually think the backs are coming together - but Slade could easily have 10-15 more caps by now, and Daly 10-15 more games' experience at 15, if Eddie hadn't been so obtuse about Brown in particular.
A back '4' of Slade, May, Daly, Watson could absolutely terrify defences. And the midfield can perm any 2 of Ford/Faz/Teo/Tuilagi and complete a great attacking picture.

Of course, you've got to defend. But no England pack is ever going to win less than 50% of the ball, so i'd much rather focus on scoring.

Opti we all want you to be England manager but sadly its Mr Jones, if he is going to use your plan by proxy it would help Slades cause if we he actually played for England he didn't show himself up. Against SA he attempted 13 tackles and missed 7, hardly fullback material.

In that same game Farrell attempted 20 and missed 11 perhaps the whole England squad need to improve their defence.

PS As an aside our Sam Attempted 28 and missed 4 and scored the winning try. (In a parallel universe).



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://image.ibb.co/maFJzT/darren_atkins_4.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
Rawce (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 12:06
Kruis out, so Ewels to start and Stooke on the bench or run with Itoje/Lawes? Will he mix it up anyway against Japan? It may help if they get some time ahead of Australia I guess.

Would that be Stooke's first cap?

 
MESSAGES->author
hemington (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 13:11
Quote:
cb2
Not sure that Kruis and Slade need to be in the side. They both lack that extra bit, when playing against the best. In this order - Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Kruis. As for the backs. I have thought hard about this and the one guy who can play 15 for us, who is solid enough under the high ball and can help our attack is Alex Goode. It's too late for Woodward and the others have failed to nail down the position. I was pushing for Ashton but have changed my mind to Goode. Surely a good guy to be around a WC squad as well.
Well Kruis it out for next 2 tests [tinyurl.com]

 
John Tee
John Tee (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 13:16
Lawes problem appears to be if you need ballast, and our current back row lacks this, you'll sacrifice lawes as a starter for someone like Kruis or launchbury. I think we have good options for locks atm and some worthy players aren't getting looked at. However, these last two games are the ones to play them in, Imv.

Both Slade and Daly are in the side but neither are tearing it up. I'd persevere with Daly at FB for this series but I think Brown will crop up again.

It isn't so much about missed tackles, Imv, it is about the cohesive solidarity of the defence and in that regard, England were pretty good last Saturday.
Jones hasn't planned for this...but injuries have conspired
to put names in the hat and all you can ask for is players don't completely blow their chances.

I still don't rate Jones...I think he is out of ideas now.. But events are assisting him.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 13:21
Shipwrecked - have you watched the move when Savea butchered a try with a knock-on? Farrell missed two tackles in a single move. I appreciate he plays a certain role rushing up from set pieces - but his open field tackling is a bit of a joke as well. On top of that he butchered a re-start that directly resulted in NZ 3 points, he made the wrong decision for the kick to corner/pen. The whole game was error-strewn and I think Daly came out pretty much in credit. He is worth backing in my view.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 13:40
I still can't see it with Slade. I had high hopes for him but he's now aged 25 and with 3 or so years as an international. He's been playing for a top club side and not quite convinced me. Greenwood went on about him like he was going to be our BOD. I am just not sure. He's 6 ft 2 and weighs nearly 15 stone, he's got a big boot, is quick enough and can stop the big guys when needed. He ticks most of the boxes. He is just not influencing games for England. A bit like Phil De Glanville. A hard worker but not able to swim with the biggest of fish. I would love to be proved wrong, as the potential is clearly still there. JJ is ahead of him for me. He'd also add 42 caps to the party.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 14:34
Outside centre isn't a problem position for England - you could make a legitimate case for any of Slade, Lozowski, JJ, Daly, Teo or Tuilagi to start with 13 on their back.

As you say, Slade ticks most of the boxes - if he plays more he won't get worse, and he will very likely get better.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: England vs ABs
13 November, 2018 15:37
Quote:
opti
you could make a legitimate case for any of slade, Lozowski, JJ, Daly, Teo or Tuilagi to start with 13 on their back.

Only to a point, I'd say only JJ and Daly can really claim a reliable run of performances for England. Tuilagi could have made that claim once, but you can't say he currently has. Actually, I don't remember that many great performances from Daly AT 13 and I suppose JJ has been out for a while?

I'm still yet to see one performance from Teo or Slade that really makes a claim for the shirt.

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