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ilovebathtime
ilovebathtime (IP Logged)

Relegation
05 December, 2018 11:50
It's interesting Melville has said today that there will be relegation at the end of this season. Although not said I can't help but feel that Bruce Craig has been on the phone suggesting that it is cancelled.

[www.theguardian.com]

There should always be promotion and relegation from the Premiership. If we were to finish bottom of the league come the end of the season then we must go down to the Championship.

I would prefer to lose every one of our star players and even struggle to be promoted than to find some way of staying up through any lobbying of the RFU. If we were to force a rule change I think that might be it for me, and I'd start watching some local amateur rugby club.

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 11:55
Agree with all of the above. I don't think i'd go as far as to say i'd stop watching Bath - but it would be very embarrassing.

Given that the Club is hoping to be building the stadium during next season, a year in the Championship, with a parachute payment and lower crowds for that season might actually be a logistical benefit!

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 12:33
Totally agree, but whilst it's a topic that comes up every year, this season I think it's more of a possibility than ever. By Xmas there's usually a club that's cut off from the rest and it could be argued they 'belong'' in the Championship for at least a season. This year a whole load of clubs are in the relegation struggle. In the eyes of their owners, they're perhaps too good to go down. I also think there is an argument that this tight battle to stay up is affecting the quality of rugby on offer, and the fact that a shedload of new money is on its way makes it even more important that the rugby is entertaining and that the owners will want to be a part of this wealthier Premiership. To my mind, relegation tests how teams cope with pressure and is an important part of sport. Bristol, for one, seem to be handling that pressure and playing positive rugby. We seem to be struggling due to our mental fragility. The one argument I would put for ring fencing is that once Irish are promoted, in the next three seasons which other Championship club could cope with the financial demands of the Premium without becoming another London Welsh?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 12:59
Please, never believe the suggestion ringfencing will be temporary. It won't be.

The fact that there are no obvious promotable teams other than irish and whoever goes down doesn't mean there won't ever be. Moreover you've just shafted any ambition a lower level club has.

Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.

That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:04
Surely the CVC deal would influence this to a degree?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:06
Quote:
ilovebathtime
It's interesting Melville has said today that there will be relegation at the end of this season. Although not said I can't help but feel that Bruce Craig has been on the phone suggesting that it is cancelled.

Whilst there is support for relegation, is there a general belief that BC wanted it cancelled?



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:09
I have often thought that it should be possible to have a ring fence for say 2 or 3 seasons then allow a promotion/relegation season. This would allow more entertainment and budgets to be easier to plan whilst not taking away the chance of getting in.

A compromise that might actually work. Call it Prexit if you like.

 
Shorty Shorty iiv
Shorty Shorty iiv (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:21
I think it’s very naive to think there are benefits of getting relegated, the risks of so much higher... Whose to say that our benefactor, who is let’s face it is financially keeping us alive, will hang about, and that we’ll get promoted straight back up, LI aren’t wayahead like Bristol we’re last season and got beaten last weekend, and Yorkshire Carnegie look like they are heading down another tier.

The way I see it is if the CVC sale is going to come off I’d imagine the end of relegation will be part of the deal, and Irish who are a shareholder being brought back up as the 13th team. Six sides/shareholders could easily be relegated, and if I was any one of them I’d be getting all the others round he table to lobby for the end of relegation, or otherwise I’m wouldn’t sell my shares and risk the CVC deal falling down for everyone. None of them want to relegated and the likes of Wasps are desperate for the money. It’s business after all.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:22
Not a fan of relegation/promotion. It really doesn't add much of anything. Exeter are obviously the success story, but otherwise it's just a yoyo effect or a Championship club goes out of business, and has been for a long time.

Ringfence and the quality of rugby will not only improve but clubs nearer the bottom of the table might actually trust some of their homegrown or younger players to develop rather than signing over the hill journeymen like Andy Goode, just to stay up.

Once clubs like Ealing get more than 500 strong crowds, in a decade or so, reevaluate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 13:23 by ballsout.

 
Johnflinn
GM (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:33
Although Mr Melville has said no relegation this season that doesn’t preclude a 13 team Prem next season - so the relegated club could be handed a get out of jail card by fellow Prem clubs for next season.

That would leave the need for a sweetheart deal for the Championship clubs - the RFU would also love a chance to re-negotiate the crippling deal they did with Prem rugby too. Perhaps they could then re-employ some of the community rugby staff they have just let go?

So.....plenty of horse trading to be done and well-healed owners of Champ clubs (Ealing, Carnegie, Coventry etc) lining up good lawyers!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:49
" It really doesn't add much of anything. "

it literally adds a point to playing for half the premiership clubs. Inclusing us most of the time.

"Ringfence and the quality of rugby will not only improve"

Why? Will a whole bunch of better players somehow become available?

This idea that we'll start throwing the ball around because there's not relegation is pure BS. That implies that because we can't get relegated we don't want to win as much, I don't think it will happen, but if it was the case how is that a good thing?

"The rugby's better because one side has no motivation to win, they're out of the league, but there's no chance of relegation, so what do they care?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 13:50 by DanWiley.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:51
Quote:
DanWiley
Please, never believe the suggestion ringfencing will be temporary. It won't be.
The fact that there are no obvious promotable teams other than irish and whoever goes down doesn't mean there won't ever be. Moreover you've just shafted any ambition a lower level club has.

Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.

That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

I would argue that Briz would be the most likely to be moved as Bristol is the least appealing place to visit for away fans.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 13:57
Was completely prepared for relegation instead of merging with Brizzle all those years ago and nothing has changed for me since - if we go down it is because we deserve it and redemption can only come through the energy and skill to get promoted

Staying up through the trap door being nailed shut would be immensely humiliating and. for me, is something that runs totally against the principles of competitive team sport

The likes of Ealing, Carnegie, Coventry and others deserve the opportunity to join the top table

The only way I could accept it would be through a one off major re-organisation to, say 2 equal divisions of 8 from which there then would be 'normal' relegation and promotion in subsequent years [plus play offs at the top of course]

At least that would reduce player workload though would also reduce club income so ain't gonna happen

 
ilovebathtime
ilovebathtime (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:04
Completely disagree that relegation doesn't achieve anything.

If you get rid of it you are in the position where English cricket was in the 90's where you have bred a lot of comfortable players, who half way through a season have nothing much to play for and winning or losing doesn't particularly matter. This then translates to the international game.

If you are a young player do you want to be gifted a place in a team, or do you want to compete and show you are better than the over the hill journeymen like Andy Goode.

With the attrition rate in rugby I'm not sure lack of opportunity is holding back many young players in any case.

Exeter is the example that ambitious clubs should be trying to follow. Pull up the draw bridge and what is there to play for in the Championship?

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:08
Quote:
BathMatt53
Surely the CVC deal would influence this to a degree?

CVC are going to inject £240m (£20m per club) into a sport that hasn't made a brass farthing in profit in 20 years of professionalism. (Total losses across 20 years, on the back of fag packet = £1m x 12 clubs x 20 … c. £240m??). That would imply that CVC have got to squeeze an additional c. £500m over the next 20 years out of the Premiership in order to reverse the position and make a bit of profit.

'to a degree' doesn't go anywhere near the influence they will have. As fans, we're not really in a position to complain, because the alternative is simply to say to the likes of Bruce, Nigel and others, 'we don't want CVC, so is it ok if you guys keep on subbing us'.

But if that deal goes through, I imagine anyone over the age of about 40 is about to say goodbye to much of what drew them to the game of rugby union in the first place.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:09
500k fans on their doorstep and a 27k stadium Briz aren't going anywhere.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:19
Quote:
DanWiley
" It really doesn't add much of anything. "
it literally adds a point to playing for half the premiership clubs. Inclusing us most of the time.

"Ringfence and the quality of rugby will not only improve"

Why? Will a whole bunch of better players somehow become available?

This idea that we'll start throwing the ball around because there's not relegation is pure BS. That implies that because we can't get relegated we don't want to win as much, I don't think it will happen, but if it was the case how is that a good thing?

"The rugby's better because one side has no motivation to win, they're out of the league, but there's no chance of relegation, so what do they care?"

Last year the fight for 6th place and Champions cup rugby literally came down to the last weekend. If you’re saying that the point of playing for half the Premiership is to avoid relegation then that’s immensely sad.

The last match against Sale was one of the worst I’ve ever seen. Two sides in 10th and twelfth playing turgid, safety first rugby. It wouldn’t have happened if there was no fear of relegation.

If there were Championship clubs beating down the door with crowds of 6000k+ I’d think fine. But there aren’t, at present.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 14:20 by ballsout.

 
Sit_Down
Sit_Down (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:28
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
Please, never believe the suggestion ringfencing will be temporary. It won't be.
The fact that there are no obvious promotable teams other than irish and whoever goes down doesn't mean there won't ever be. Moreover you've just shafted any ambition a lower level club has.

Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.

That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

I would argue that Briz would be the most likely to be moved as Bristol is the least appealing place to visit for away fans.

I could argue the same about Bath. Thankfully not all rugby fans have your small mindedness.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:31
All of these arguments have been thrown up before of course. For every view there's a counter- argument, for example the point that relegation keeps our league competitive and helps our national team is rather undermined by the success of Ireland and New Zealand.I too believe that the league system should be a pyramid, but I'm sure Bedford didn't want promotion when they were in the play-offs and there are criteria to be met that preclude most clubs. Then there are the potential pitfalls of overextending yourself to be competitive. As to the idea of rugby abandoning its club structure, I accept it's a possibility, but unlikely. Cricket is trying it with this 100 competition, and I hope it fails miserably, but don't see that rugby has to go down that route. As to ring- fencing making rugby better, I'd just suggest it might be more entertaining without the fear of relegation, but whether this equates to BETTER rugby is a moot point!

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 14:31
All of these arguments have been thrown up before of course. For every view there's a counter- argument, for example the point that relegation keeps our league competitive and helps our national team is rather undermined by the success of Ireland and New Zealand.I too believe that the league system should be a pyramid, but I'm sure Bedford didn't want promotion when they were in the play-offs and there are criteria to be met that preclude most clubs. Then there are the potential pitfalls of overextending yourself to be competitive. As to the idea of rugby abandoning its club structure, I accept it's a possibility, but unlikely. Cricket is trying it with this 100 competition, and I hope it fails miserably, but don't see that rugby has to go down that route. As to ring- fencing making rugby better, I'd just suggest it might be more entertaining without the fear of relegation, but whether this equates to BETTER rugby is a moot point!

 
MESSAGES->author
Tall Paul (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 15:07
Quote:
DanWiley
Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.
That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

Not sure I agree with this, DW. Superleague was ringfenced for years and I am pretty confident that Elliot Daley could kick from Castleford to Wakefield and Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Hull (FC and KR) are all close by too. I am not as familiar with the other side of the Pennines but I think it is a similar story there. And the Championship is just the same geographically.



Elliott Stooke- proudly adopted for 2018-19

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 15:08
Relegation doesn't add anything in particular and it arguably inhibits the ability to play more, younger English players. While it's obvious to look at Bruce as a possible driver behind this, I'd look at Leicester Tigers. Premiership Rugby is not particularly financially healthy - can it afford to lose by far its biggest supported team? If you remove the individual owners and look at PRL as a more singular entity it makes a lot more sense.

Promote Irish, get a 13 team league, scrap the Prem Cup, playoffs for top 6.

If someone (Ealing, Bedford, Scottish, Cornish Pirates) can establish a business plan for promotion then fine, consider expansion (as US sports do).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 15:09 by hasta.

 
MESSAGES->author
hasta (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 15:12
Oh and Franchising != Ringfencing. Show me which Pro14 or Superleague clubs have moved. The only actual example in rugby is Wasps... who did it in a not ringfenced league.

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 15:21
I don't think the franchise arrangement, ie a city of 500,000 hasn't got a rugby team and therefore Bath or Worcester with only a small city hinterland should lose out.

I don't believe that if Bath were relocated to say Southampton, a reasonable sized city, with Bath, Bristol and Harlequins as the nearest Premiership Clubs would get more than 10,000 spectators.

Let's fact it Saracens gates are not massive........yes I know they have a small capacity but its often not full.

If the CVC money is accepted I suspect it will be a pre-condition with Irish being allowed back up and all the shareholders of the Premiership back in the division.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 15:50
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack

Let's fact it Saracens gates are not massive........yes I know they have a small capacity but its often not full.


Top 3 averages for the 2017 / 2018 season:

3. Harlequins’ Twickenham Stoop (capacity 14,800) 95% full for their Premiership home games.
2. Saracens’ Allianz Park (capacity 10,000) 96% full for their Premiership home games.
1. Baths’ Recreation Ground (capacity 14,509) 98% full for their Premiership home games.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
gmem
Garym (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 16:29
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack

Let's fact it Saracens gates are not massive........yes I know they have a small capacity but its often not full.


Top 3 averages for the 2017 / 2018 season:

3. Harlequins’ Twickenham Stoop (capacity 14,800) 95% full for their Premiership home games.
2. Saracens’ Allianz Park (capacity 10,000) 96% full for their Premiership home games.
1. Baths’ Recreation Ground (capacity 14,509) 98% full for their Premiership home games.

Does that include games at Twickenham and Wembley?

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 16:31
"last year the fight for 6th place and Champions cup rugby literally came down to the last weekend."

Between two clubs making up the numbers in the HEC. They weren't playing for anything.

"rather undermined by the success of Ireland and New Zealand"

Not really. They've very different set ups. If we had 4 club teams I'd bet they'd do better in Europe and the national team would be playing and training together all the time. BUT do you really want 4 club teams?

"Superleague was ringfenced for years and I am pretty confident that Elliot Daley could kick from Castleford to Wakefield and Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Hull (FC and KR) are all close by too"

Sure, but who cares about league outside of that area? There are plenty of areas in England that have a lot of union supporters and no local team. I grew up in one.

" Show me which Pro14 or Superleague clubs have moved."

The pro 14 was SET UP as well distributed franchises, to the massive detriment of grass roots rugby as I recall. As I say, where would you move a League franchise to where it would gain any traction?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 16:32 by DanWiley.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 16:39
CVC are paying for a product. They don't care about the actual teams but they definitely want the drama.

The relegation battles in Prem football are major part of what the Yanks love about it cos there's basically no promotion and relegation in US sport. The same will be true of rugby. If we want the game to grow financially then there have to be as many winners and losers as possible to make it a compelling proposition.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 16:53
In response to Dan Wiley, l stand by my comment. I was merely pointing out that relegation doesn't seem to be necessary to breed players with winning mindsets, as Ireland and New Zealand have shown. I'm ambivalent about ringfencing- I can see good arguments both for and against it, but think it is important to recognise this!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 16:58
Ok, but in fairness I wasn't claiming we'd produce worse players, just there's no reason to think it would produce better players or play.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 17:05
Agreed!

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 17:15
Johan Ackermann: Abolishing Premiership relegation can increase standard of players and squads is a telegraph article today but it is paywalled.

The following is along similar lines though (although not as specific):

[www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk]



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 17:23
Quote:
DanWiley
"last year the fight for 6th place and Champions cup rugby literally came down to the last weekend."
Between two clubs making up the numbers in the HEC. They weren't playing for anything.

Yes they were, that's the point. They were literally playing for Champions Cup rugby the following season.

And as I said, if you think the goal of the bottom 6 sides of the Premiership in the latter half of the season is siply to avoid relegation and that's why all the crowds turn up, then that's a really sad (and incorrect) way of looking at things.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 19:14
Two clubs playing to be also rans really isn't that interesting is it?

The thing that makes those games interesting is the threat of relegation. Far fewer people pay to go and see the Mickey mouse cups, and those that do pay a lot less, because you don't see the top players and they aren't interested in what they are playing for. The bottom half of the pprem will be the same of you ring fence. You might find that sad, bit it isn't incorrect.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 19:41
But in reality, for the last few years I, like virtually all season ticket holders, will have forked out our cash pretty sure in the knowledge that we won't win the league or be relegated- hard to argue against that summary- yet we still attend in big(ISH) numbers...

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 19:44
Really, we came pretty close with ford, that wasn't so long ago nor did it come off the back of a build up really. I think we'd get a lot fewer fans if they knew we weren't going to win, indeed teams that probably are pretty sure of that do get fewer fans.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 22:09
Quote:
DanWiley
Two clubs playing to be also rans really isn't that interesting is it?

There was something riding on the result. It's not clubs playing to be also rans, it's clubs playing to be in the top tier of Europe the following season.

Quote:
DanWiley
The thing that makes those games interesting is the threat of relegation.

Really. A 7th v 8th place match in round 22 is interesting because of the threat of relegation. You're making zero sense.

Quote:
Far fewer people pay to go and see the Mickey mouse cups, and those that do pay a lot less, because you don't see the top players and they aren't interested in what they are playing for. The bottom half of the pprem will be the same of you ring fence. You might find that sad, bit it isn't incorrect.

No one goes to see Premiership games to watch clubs try and avoid relegation. Maybe you do. People go to watch Premiership matches to be entertained. A 10th v 12th place match with two teams terrified of relegation happened at the Rec a few days ago, and it produced one of the worst games I've ever seen.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 23:14
And, few years back, there was a relegation game between Bath and London Irish which produced one of the most riveting matches I've ever seen.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
05 December, 2018 23:31
That was 2003 I think- so, with the exception of that season and a couple of occasions when we were in with a shout of winning, for the most part we've been pretty much mid- table, where I suspect we'll finish this year...

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 08:20
We have far too many top level clubs with squads suffering with injuries. There are only so many top level players in the country and I believe it is better to have fewer teams with larger squads. I cannot see the new owners increasing the number of sides. The quality is bad enough as it is.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 08:39
"That was 2003 I think"

We lost the final in 2015. You are right in saying we also lost a final in 2003.

" It's not clubs playing to be also rans, it's clubs playing to be in the top tier of Europe the following season. "

Where they will be also rans.

"Really. A 7th v 8th place match in round 22 is interesting because of the threat of relegation. You're making zero sense. "

No, but you agree that such a match IS less interesting? It's a dead rubber right? Without relegation how many more matches are equally pointless? It's getting on to about half I'd think. Frankly, this season, it would any that don't involved Sarries and Exe already I suspect.


Overall I'm amazed so many people who claim to love sport actually want to reduce the competition in their game. Go to the theatre if you don't want risk.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 08:53
'Claim to love sport'... A rather dogmatic stance. As I've made clear, I can see arguments on both sides. To suggest that anyone supporting ringfencing can't be a proper sports lover is crazy. Are you suggesting Ackerman, the Gloucester coach, isn't a lover of rugby? As to risk, I fully recognise that tension is a key part of sport, for players and supporters, but again there's a counter- argument, e.g. the appeal of the Baa- baas. Watching the Lions is as good as it gets, but it's 'just' a question of who comes out on top, who wins. Plenty of passionate fans would care hugely about their side winning regardless of whether they faced relegation- the incentive/ tension would be created by trying to get into the playoffs and the European Cup.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 09:43
Its a bit muted in English Rugby by the fact that there is only 1 team outside the current Prem who would even get close to competing. Its a worry when most of the teams in the Champ choose not to get promoted for that reason. If the Champs and Prem were closer I could see more of an appeal, i.e. genuine competition but the CVC deal would only make the gulf even larger, so I can't really see the point as it stands?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 09:55
If relegation is basically like being sent to the naughty step for a year - ie the team going down is absolutely nailed-on to come back up - then it does start to appear a bit pointless.

Again - I've always (and just about remain) opposed to ringfencing in that it is the very antithesis of sport as competition - but, given the current paucity of entertainment in the Premiership, I'm starting to sympathise a bit. Likewise, when I see the plans for the Rec, it makes me shiver to think that it could be undermined by relegation.

Having said that - on the 'quality of entertainment' argument - Exeter are not worrying about relegation, but they are the ultimate exponents of formulaic, no-risk, pragmatic, dull rugby.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 10:08
That said, Opti, they just keep on winning! Which I thought was the point of the whole exercise. (Sm100)

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 10:22
As I say, "I'm amazed " I'm not saying I understand why people who primarily love sport over business are so keen on the idea. I obviously understand why a businessman wants to make it a sure thing. I guess I have sympathy if you're career depends on it (players and coaches). But I still don't think that's the right motivation.

Barbars are great to watch on a one off, but you'd get board of it pretty quickly if all international rugby was like that. The AIs and, to a lesser extent, the summer tours are less interesting to me as they are just individual matches (obliviously a summer tour can lead to a "tour win", but its not the same). I'd be surprised if others don't feel the same?

There is a gulf, but its demonstrably not insurmountable.

Can we turn this on it's head and say what IS the argument for ringfencing? I'm not interested in the finantial side of it, I get that people want security in an investment, but this is sport ringfencing will only provide an illusion of that. As said, owning a side consistently at the basement of a division might be more of a liability then one with relegation.

But this idea we'll somehow play better? Why? Seriously, do you expect better players from somewhere? Do you want the teams to take games less seriously? Do you want to see us putting our weaker teams for certain games? Sounds terrible to me.

Or does it literally come down to we're all a bit afraid it will be us next (or one day)?

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 10:30
Personally, whilst I realise the financial implications, I would happily watch us in the Championship, even without some of the 'stars' in our current squad. I've always opposed ringfencing, but my view is softening not through fear it could be us, but for all of the reasons already put forward in this thread, be it by posters or in the Ackerman interview someone kindly attached. Incidentally, Owen Slot in the Times on Saturday wrote a very balanced piece, but I wouldn't have a clue how to attach it!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 10:47
But what are those arguments? I'm really not sdeeing them on this thread or in the articles.

Ackerman's seems to come down to:

“We could get no-name players but at least we could promise them Super Rugby,”

great.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 11:03
I should re-read the thread, but Tempus Fugit and all that, so from memory...
1) Premiership rugby would still have the carrots of play-offs and European rugby qualification, but not the 'stick' of relegation, so the style of rugby would be less inhibited
2) Financially a more secure investment
3) Teams could develop players for the future, accepting they might need a couple of seasons where they'd be at the lower end of the league- good for the clubs and national side, especially as you could then consider managing players' workload better.
4) At the moment, the side getting relegated pretty much gets promoted the next- not always, admittedly- so accept this and ring fence the 13.
5) Efforts to bridge the gulf between Prem and Championship has ruined London Welsh. (In football the EFL is full of clubs who nearly went out of business doing the same thing).
That'll do for now, and I list these despite sharing a Optimist's view that anything reducing competition is indeed the 'antithesis of sport'.

 
ilovebathtime
ilovebathtime (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 11:58
I guess the compromise option would be that the team that finishes bottom of the premiership has a 2 legged playoff with the top team in the Championship to decide whether there is promotion and relegation.

The benefit of this is that there is the chance for a team to come through and be another Exeter, whilst lessening the risk that a team is promoted that then loses every game other than one against Bath and end up going out of business like London Welsh did.

The main downside I can think of is that whoever is either promoted or stays up has less time to plan for the following season, and would be at a massive disadvantage the following season.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 12:45
Things have moved on since Exeter came up - I think that the only way that a team could come up and stay up now is if they paid through the nose as Bristol did last year. It was commented that the entire squad salary of some of the champ teams was less than a single Bristol player last year (Steven Luatua). That just isn't possible without a zillionaire backer. The risk otherwise of course is that you do a London Welsh.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 12:53
Good point, and to be fair to Bristol they have more than a wealthy backer. They have the established fan base and ground to initially satisfy the criteria for promotion, and to then hold their own. AT PRESENT, no club in the Championship apart from Irish can tick these boxes, but, of course, you sense that ringfencing would be pretty permanent. As ever, every good point has a counter argument, hence my confused outlook on this issue!

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 14:05
"Things have moved on since Exeter came up"

How so? Seems more or less exactly as hard to me. Not easy by any means, but its the premiership right? You should have to be the best.


Tom:
1) Isn't a reason to do it, its saying if you do do it you'll still have half the challenge. "so the style of rugby would be less inhibited" Why? Will teams not want to win as much then? If they don't want to win as much is that really what you want to encourage?

2) This IS what is driving this, none of the other reasons would buy even a sniff of a chance of change. You're selling the competition in our sport so that someone can attempt to make money. Worse than that it seems pretty clear they will fail. Look at other sports, you just don't make money at this level. Rugby doesn't make money. We don't have the national profile of the international game, top-top football or other high profile events. Nor are we lower a level sport that makes money from the community. We're at just the level where clubs an hope to break even, maybe make a small profit, but nothing worth the investment. We'll end up selling an awful lot more to attract investment if we go down this route, it will gain us nothing and it will all end in tears.


3) Successful teams need to develop for the future. I don't buy they need time off failure in order to do so. Actually I think they NEED that threat of failure to really follow it through.

4) So what? It is none the less the ultimate penalty for a bad season. Having such a penalty is a good thing. Otherwise you're either the best or on one.

5) London Welsh ruined London Welsh, or rather the person in charge at the time did (I forget the name). That was really clear at the time. The idea that some people can't handle the chance isn't a reason not to give them that chance.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 14:32
Firstly, I was summarising the arguments for ring fencing you asked for. I have my concerns about it, but clearly these arguments do have validity, which is why opinion is so divided on the matter. In terms of player development it's pretty obvious that coaches would be more willing to give young English players extended opportunities if they knew the ultimate price of 'failure' wasn't relegation. Anyone who follows football knows full well that the biggest reason why so few English youngsters are given their chance in the Premiership, and increasingly the Championship too, is because it's about the here and now- survival, as several posters have referred to here, with poor old Andy Goode used as their example of the archetypal journeyman of rugby. Equally, the rugby could well be less cautious, without you turning the argument on its head and ingenuously suggesting 'we' want meaningless exhibition rugby- as I've said, the rewards for winning do matter, but the ultimate cost of failure is less damaging. I could happily justify the other points made, most of them not mine, but you clearly aren't to be persuaded! I would just emphasise that if the issue was as clear cut as you seem to think the topic wouldn't generate so much argument and interest from people who know far more about rugby than I profess to.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 14:39
Out of interest, how many teams in the Champs:

- are eligible to come up; and
- want to come up?

I think that I remember that they have to submit confirmation to the league around now to say if they want to go up given the chance? Ealing and L.Irish I guess. Any others?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 14:50
"In terms of player development it's pretty obvious that coaches would be more willing to give young English players extended opportunities if they knew the ultimate price of 'failure' wasn't relegation."

So, just to be clear, that's saying you are happy to see a lesser standard of rugby. You're saying ringfencing will lead to us playing our up and coming players rather than our stars in the premiership because our desire to win will be reduced, the flip side of losing is winning there's no two ways around that. We have competitions for that, it seems to happen quite naturally anyway, if it was really so beneficial clubs would do it anyway, so I don't see there's a good reason to harm our premiership to achieve what basically has to happen anyway (otherwise we'd have no players pretty soon).


"but clearly these arguments do have validity, which is why opinion is so divided on the matter. "

These arguments are being spun very hard by people who want to get rid of relegation to secure their investments. I'm not surprised some of you are buying it, I am surprised so many of you are buying it.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 15:05
I'll give up after this and accept that I'm just naive then, but will try one more time to get across the point that winning matters. Qualification for the playoffs matters. Playing European Cup rugby rather than the Eurodisney version matters, which is why so many of us celebrated the wins against Irish and Gloucester that got us there. Clearly however, only qualifying for the Eurodisney does not result in the upheaval that comes with relegation. That doesn't seem to be a difficult concept. Accept that and you begin to understand the points supporters of ringfencing make about entertainment and player development, if, of course, you wish to make sense of their arguments, albeit you then choose to respectfully differ. A bit different from a stance of 'Im right, and those who disagree are naive in the extreme', which does come across as rather patronising and ignores the complexity of the differing arguments.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 15:08
I guess it all depends on our views of the pro 14? Those Leinster fans very rarely get to see their stars but when they do its to watch them lifting cups as often as not. It also seems to have helped their national team when central contracts are thrown into the mix.

I'm not sure how keen I would be to watch squad rugby every week in our shiny new stadium though, watching the likes of JC, AW etc. in the flesh is all part of the excitement...



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 15:14
Quote:
BathMatt53
I'm not sure how keen I would be to watch squad rugby every week in our shiny new stadium though, watching the likes of JC, AW etc. in the flesh is all part of the excitement...

Bit better than watching squad rugby in the championship once all our stars have left following relegation though? Also with relegation will we still bother with the shiny new stadium?



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 15:45
"Playing European Cup rugby rather than the Eurodisney version matters, which is why so many of us celebrated the wins against Irish and Gloucester that got us there."

Did it though? We're not going to progress and so far our attempts in the EC had not been terribly productive. That's basically going to be the story for the team who qualified in 6th 99 times out of 100. There are there to make up the numbers, at the end of the day beating Irish and Glaws really didn't matter, as much as people seemed to think it did at the time.

So no, for me, whether you finish 6th or 7th really doesn't bother me. I guess it's nice to see us against the top teams, but finishing 6th means you ain't ready for EC rugby.

The reason I think you naive is because fundamentally you really are stuck on the horns of a dilemma and I've seen no argument that helps you. There are two possible answers:

- Ringfencing won't reduce the competition in our league, in which case you won't be able to develop your team any more than you can now. All ringfencing will achieve is close the door to other teams who are potentially capable and support teams that have shown they aren't capable.

- Ringfencing will reduced the competition in our league and do you really want that? Will it even help our clubs financially? If it means the product is devalued (we don't see the stars week in week out), quite likely not.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 16:41
..and here endeth the lesson!

I think that TomReagan said it best when he said that the likes of Ackermann have been there and done it and think that it’s not a bad idea so that is probably good enough for most (if not all) on this board.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 16:46
I don't think ringfencing would drastically reduce the number of appearances of the top players in the Premiership. I think many England internationals are playing too much rugby, so it would be easier to manage that workload. I don't quite accept the comparison with Leinster for two reasons. For starters, the top sides in their leagues/ conferences are clearly very good, but there are enough weaker sides to allow them to rest their top players in certain matches, as last week showed. The Premiership doesn't have that gulf between the top and weakest sides. If you're seeking European/play off places, the English clubs can't rotate their squads to the same degree. Secondly, ringfencing doesn't have to mean central contracting, which is the main reason why so many Irish internationsls miss games...

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 16:46
Quote:
BathMatt53
..and here endeth the lesson!
I think that TomReagan said it best when he said that the likes of Ackermann have been there and done it and think that it’s not a bad idea so that is probably good enough for most (if not all) on this board.

It's worth saying that Ackermann did not play in a relegation comp so his experience is limited. He is also a Head Coach who's job would be made much easier by ring fencing, so he's not exactly a disinterested observer.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 17:08
But he does have a pretty good understanding of the pro's and con's of the various options I would have thought. I'm personally not that bothered about what happens as long as it makes the premiership economically viable and the clubs and players are OK with it.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
06 December, 2018 23:25
Quote:
DanWiley
" It's not clubs playing to be also rans, it's clubs playing to be in the top tier of Europe the following season. "

Where they will be also rans.

"Really. A 7th v 8th place match in round 22 is interesting because of the threat of relegation. You're making zero sense. "

No, but you agree that such a match IS less interesting? It's a dead rubber right? Without relegation how many more matches are equally pointless? It's getting on to about half I'd think. Frankly, this season, it would any that don't involved Sarries and Exe already I suspect.


Overall I'm amazed so many people who claim to love sport actually want to reduce the competition in their game. Go to the theatre if you don't want risk.

Can't remember the last time I saw a post on here make less sense than the above.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 07:47
So you think we're not also rans in the ec? Hate to break this to you, but were already also rans in the prem this year.

That being the case, I really can't see how it can be in doubt, you say it yourself often enough, we really were playing for very little in those games with glaws and Irish.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 08:31
Quote:
DanWiley

That being the case, I really can't see how it can be in doubt, you say it yourself often enough, we really were playing for very little in those games with glaws and Irish.

We were playing to participate in the biggest club competition in the NH, with the excitement (and money) that comes with that. How can that possibly not be a big deal? I know that you love nothing better than being entrenched but even you must realise that is a big deal, whether you type it or not.

With a draw and a very close loss (courtesy of Freddie) this year I think that we have been right in the mix - unless you regard all of the teams aside from Leinster as also-rans which is probably in the case. In fact 10 teams in the prem are also-rans this year as well so why even bother at all?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 08:37
Because, on the whole, I'd sooner lose to sides like Leinster and Toulouse than beat semi- professional Romanians/Russians and French sides resting their first team, albeit you do go to some interesting away games.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 08:52
Ok, honestly I get very little out of being an often well beaten team in a competition where we're there to make up the numbers. Qualification for it is at best an interesting distraction, it certainly won't keep my interest from now til the end of the season. That's not to say I won't watch and enjoy watching Bath between now and the end of the season, but if we feel that we're not Ap contenders (and I don't) we will have lost something that competing for such a place really doesn't make up for.

The next thing to play for is staying away from the relegation zone, come on that is more on you mind than EC qualification right now? If EC qualification gives you a focus for this season, great, it's a bit of a side show for me.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 09:00
Fair enough, but what kept your attention throughout last season, and most of those before? You clearly go to lots of games, yet (and this is the point I made ages ago in reference to the fact that we are almost invariably mid-table) by your reasoning it was all pretty pointless.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 10:10
From a coaching perspective, surely it is a better approach to look up the table to see what you have to do to get further up rather than look down and work out what you need to do to avoid slipping to the bottom

Won't the latter simply reinforce a risk adverse, keep it narrow and if in doubt hoof it away anywhere in own last third of pitch?

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 10:41
Quote:
gaz59
From a coaching perspective, surely it is a better approach to look up the table to see what you have to do to get further up rather than look down and work out what you need to do to avoid slipping to the bottom
Won't the latter simply reinforce a risk adverse, keep it narrow and if in doubt hoof it away anywhere in own last third of pitch?

Unfortunately, I think we've looked up and seen Exeter, rather than looking down and seeing Bristol/Newcastle.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 12:09
no gaz, in both cases you play to win. If you win you achieve both goals. If playing conservative helps you win, you'll do it. Nothing to do with looking up or down.

Yes, the last couple of seasons have undoubtedly been less interesting, and i suspect drawn less support, than the seasons we got to the final or the seasons where we've been in a relegation fight. Is that really even a question for you? I remember the seasons we nearly got relegated (Elvis and all that) and obviously the ones we got to the final, I don't remember the seasons when we've achieved mid table mediocrity.

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 12:20
I do, it's the vast majority of them. The point is, you might dismiss these seasons as forgettable, but you still forked out a lot of money to watch, and when it comes to renewing our season tickets, we do so accepting that we'll probably be mid-table. Of course you, like everyone else, would rather be supporting a side with a realistic chance of winning the Premiership, but it seems a simple observation. We renew our season tickets for lots of reasons- fighting against relegation isn't, for most of us, one of them.

 
bardofavon
bardofavon (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 13:31
if a club has been cut adrift and is by common consent not good enough to remain in the prem then releagation is fine, assuming of course that the promoted side is better. this has always been the case to date but is the case no more.this year the relegated club- and it may be bath- wont be so much different from several other clubs if results continue as they are.it cannot be fair for a club to go down on points difference or because it has a handful of points deficit compared to other clubs. the damage to the relegated club will be serious. it will lose half of its playing squad and some sponsors too. and the likilihood is that the promoted club will be inferior. what about exeter people say. well that was 8 yrs ago now and how many exeters have there been since? you can't maintain an injurious policy because someone somewhen might benefit from it.as for the championship there are very few clubs who want to come up or are indeed able to satisfy the criteria to do so.london irish is the only one. ealing might one day but they are a long way away off at the moment in terms of support, infrastructure and money.

 
ilovebathtime
ilovebathtime (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
07 December, 2018 13:41
Season tickets are one thing, but match tickets are quite another. I didn't have a season ticket last season and didn't bother buying a ticket for most games towards the end of the season. If I felt that the matches really mattered I would probably have gone.

From watching a lower league football team it's obvious that crowds towards the end of the season are bigger when there is something to play for.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
08 December, 2018 01:33
Quote:
bardofavon
if a club has been cut adrift and is by common consent not good enough to remain in the prem then releagation is fine, assuming of course that the promoted side is better. this has always been the case to date but is the case no more.this year the relegated club- and it may be bath- wont be so much different from several other clubs if results continue as they are.it cannot be fair for a club to go down on points difference or because it has a handful of points deficit compared to other clubs. the damage to the relegated club will be serious. it will lose half of its playing squad and some sponsors too. and the likilihood is that the promoted club will be inferior. what about exeter people say. well that was 8 yrs ago now and how many exeters have there been since? you can't maintain an injurious policy because someone somewhen might benefit from it.as for the championship there are very few clubs who want to come up or are indeed able to satisfy the criteria to do so.london irish is the only one. ealing might one day but they are a long way away off at the moment in terms of support, infrastructure and money.

I don't understand why relegation is "fair" when one side is markedly worse than rest and "unfair" when it's very close between a number of teams.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
08 December, 2018 07:31
Quote:
ilovebathtime
Season tickets are one thing, but match tickets are quite another. I didn't have a season ticket last season and didn't bother buying a ticket for most games towards the end of the season. If I felt that the matches really mattered I would probably have gone.
From watching a lower league football team it's obvious that crowds towards the end of the season are bigger when there is something to play for.

I would be less likely to go in that situation & rather check the score timidly from a great distance (Sm123)

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
09 December, 2018 10:29
Glos showed yesterday why EC qualification, even when low in the league and seedings, isn’t worthless. The opposite for Exe obviously who smash the regular season but can get any traction in Europe.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Relegation
09 December, 2018 11:56
Yes Matt, odd game Glos just kept bashing into them and Exeter just seemed unable to cope, plus a bit of pure genius from Ollie Thorley for Glaws.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg


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