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ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 10:31
A season and a half of throwing games away...

I'm not going to list all of them because that would take all day, but some notable ones stick out...

16/17, Challenge cup Semi v Stade: 7 points ahead with a few minutes to go. Likelihood of some silverware finally, if we can just close out the game. A string of penalties conceded, try conceded, then again Stade march up the field and get a drop goal to win the match. Thrown away.

17/18, Round 1, Tigers away: race into a big lead, score three tries (not four obv), then concede two tries in the last 15 minutes, three yellow cards (sound familiar?), finish the game with 13 men and only win the match because Leicester mess up a lineout 5 metres from our line in the last play. This one was pretty much a carbon copy of yesterday.

17/18, Newcastle at home. 32-19 with 15 minutes to go at the Rec, Newcastle score twice late and snatch the win.

17/18 Toulon away. Leading by 6 points, concede 10 in the last ten minutes and a string of errors (not making touch with penalty kicks, twice) show off the traditional panic that sets in when a game needs closing out.

18/19 Bristol away. Leading with 12 minutes to go, then concede 10 points.

18/19 Gloucester at home. Winning with 1 minute to go. Restart. Gloucester go all the way up the field and Banahan scores.

18/19 Harlequins away. Big lead, then concede two tries in the 75th and 79th minute then have to defend over 20 phases after the clock goes red. Just about hang on for the win.

18/19 Northampton at home. Winning by 7 in the final minute. Saints go up the field and score in the final play. Biggar hits the post with his conversion that would have drawn the game.

18/19 Toulouse at home. Enough's been said about this. The win thrown away.

18/19 Wasps away. Miles ahead. Our players speak to the coaches at half time, then concede three tries in ten minutes. Late try by Ewels giving us the lead, before Wasps equalise at the death and salvage a draw.

18/19 Worcester away. Leading by 16 points at HT. Totally stop playing. Panic and ill discipline in the last fifteen minutes. 4 much needed points thrown away.

Why does it keep happening?

And please, none of this mind coach stuff. None of the other clubs have one and they do just fine.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2019 10:33 by ballsout.

 
MESSAGES->author
FourSticks (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 11:33
A couple of quotes for you from some match reports:

"One ‘purple patch’ of ten minutes established an 11-point cushion and thereafter, Bath played with “an air of almost arrogant indifference.”

"Strangely inconsistent in their pattern of play, Bath piled on all the points in the first half, and played indifferently for the rest of the game."


the first was from Bath v Weston Super Mare on 11 April 1967; the second, from Bath v Liverpool 23 May 1967.

I think you'll find it's in the club's DNA...

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 11:56
We have now lost to the bottom 3 in the table. We have also had some good results. We are no nearer to being contenders. With such a tight table, that match was a must win to keep us in the race for top 4. It looks like another season being around the middle bottom of the table. 6th at best.

 
MESSAGES->author
FourSticks (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 12:09
I'm not sure why we always expect more. Over the 18 seasons from 2000/01, our mean average end of season placement is 5.83.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 12:15
Lost to Bristol, lost to Worcester, lost to Newcastle.

Totally unable to close out a game as the original post shows. With all the quality in our squad. And people still think the coaching isn't the problem. Let's see if we can beat Bristol at Twickenham, I wouldn't count on it.

"6th at best?" At this point I'll take 11th.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 13:43
"I'm not sure why we always expect more. Over the 18 seasons from 2000/01, our mean average end of season placement is 5.83."

So we can legitimately claim to be better than average.

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 14:38
6th is the sort of side we have had in the pro era. Not the worst but nowhere near the best. The odd run in a cup but always found wanting in the end.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 14:50
And yet Saracens, Exeter, Harlequins, Wasps, Leicester, Northampton have all won the Premiership in the last decade, with Sale not far behind that. Gloucester have won a couple of trophies. That leaves us, Worcester and Newcastle. Why?

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 14:59
I’m usually pretty sanguine about Bath results - if I had a cat it wouldn’t need to hide behind the sofa. But yesterday’s has annoyed me more than I can remember. Apart from anything I was looking forward to writing a nice smug post for bo and now it turns out he’s mostly right. Half time should have been the coaches’ moment to say, ‘right, let’s play’. God knows what they actually said - but it doesn’t really matter - either they told the team to stop playing, or they said something constructive and the team ignored them. Neither scenario is good.

 
badger1664
badger1664 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 16:15
I absolutely agree ballsout , this is a shocking statistic . And four sticks why shouldn’t we expect more? We have every right to . After all I’d like to think we’re not just a revenue source for this club . I for one am not satisfied with being consistently inconsistent and won’t settle for mid table mediocrity year in year out . Exeter are still fairly new to the premiership but look what they’ve achieved and maintained . Sariries are always up there so why not bath ? We’ve got money , strong players an owner with great resources and infinite patience so why not , why shouldn’t we expect more ??

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 16:30
It's particularly jarring when you realise that all of those games thrown away are only in the last season and a half.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 16:54
They weren’t all thrown away though - a couple of those examples are when they were ‘nearly’ thrown away like Saints and also Tigers. You have also missed out matches like Glos at the rec early this season where Bath came right back into it.

Are Bath a clinical side? Of course they aren’t. That’s why they are almost perpetually average in the standings. Are they as bad as you are making out (or more importantly are Bath the only team that can lose a lead?) of course not. That’s why they are almost perpetually average in the standings.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 17:05
There isn’t a great deal between most of the teams in the Premiership & any of them can beat any other on a given day. The player quality is much more evenly spread than 5 years ago. Much more depends on the depth of squads, the effectiveness of the coaching & avoidance of injuries. My view is that our squad is about average in terms of quality. Our 2nd & back rows are above average, our half-backs are slightly below average as are our centres & our front row & back three about average. Maybe with Watson, Joe & JJ back that will be upgraded but we are where we are. Bearing that in mind we have to get that extra effectiveness & consistency out of the squad to reach the top half but we have no special right to beat any team.

 
MESSAGES->author
FourSticks (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 17:25
Quote:
Badger1664
why shouldn't we expect more? We have every right to


We can hope, we can desire, but, given those statistics, we cannot expect to be be higher - we have not earned that right over the last 18 years.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 20:00
Quote:
Bath Hammer
There isn’t a great deal between most of the teams in the Premiership & any of them can beat any other on a given day. The player quality is much more evenly spread than 5 years ago. Much more depends on the depth of squads, the effectiveness of the coaching & avoidance of injuries. My view is that our squad is about average in terms of quality. Our 2nd & back rows are above average, our half-backs are slightly below average as are our centres & our front row & back three about average. Maybe with Watson, Joe & JJ back that will be upgraded but we are where we are. Bearing that in mind we have to get that extra effectiveness & consistency out of the squad to reach the top half but we have no special right to beat any team.

We might not have a right to beat any team and any team can beat any other, but do you think it's encouraging that we've lost to Bristol, Newcastle and Worcester, with two more games to come against them?

Quote:
FourSticks
Quote:
Badger1664
why shouldn't we expect more? We have every right to


We can hope, we can desire, but, given those statistics, we cannot expect to be be higher - we have not earned that right over the last 18 years.

No we can't expect. But we can challenge, and wonder WHY most other teams have won trophies in the last decade but we can't.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 20:12
Maybe it’s our turn next...or maybe not!



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
fat lock
fat lock (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 20:39
I think we've had more than our fair share of upheavals in the last decade or so which possibly other teams haven't.
These crises could equally be a result of other issues - but either way they are unsettling for a team desperately trying to create some consistency.

I do wonder if after one of them we might have been better at pressing the reset button - and having one almighty clear out and restarting with a clear sheet of paper.

Our turnover of coaches prevents any long term progression, - I suppose that's where investing so much in Hooper is hoping to give the stability we lack. I just hope they've chosen the right person.

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 20:49
Quote:
fat lock
I do wonder if after one of them we might have been better at pressing the reset button - and having one almighty clear out and restarting with a clear sheet of paper.

Hopefully after this season. Blackadder and Hooper certainly aren't the answer. Ditch the players that aren't good enough, hire a decent head coach post-World Cup. Get Hatley back. Send Hooper to other clubs around the world for a few years. Get him to step outside the Bath Rugby bubble and come in back in 5 years time a better man manager.

I realise we've had a lot of upheaval but this time it's needed, at least once we can guarantee safety this season.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 21:12
It is still an incredibly tight table bar the top 2. Anything can still happen, it is about what happens from here in. There is inconsistency from top to bottom and there will be opportunities. I hope the team are hurting and make sure they don't make the same mistakes again, I accept putting in a full 80 (or 90+) is not always possible if you bust a gut to lead at half time but they must learn how to close a game out effectively.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 21:23
Quote:
Optimist
I’m usually pretty sanguine about Bath results - if I had a cat it wouldn’t need to hide behind the sofa. But yesterday’s has annoyed me more than I can remember. Apart from anything I was looking forward to writing a nice smug post for bo and now it turns out he’s mostly right. Half time should have been the coaches’ moment to say, ‘right, let’s play’. God knows what they actually said - but it doesn’t really matter - either they told the team to stop playing, or they said something constructive and the team ignored them. Neither scenario is good.

Most motivational half time pep talk ever - we are 35 - 0 down against a rampant Canterbury side full of bullocking monsters and athletic freaks. Skipper says" right lads, we might be stuffed in the scrums and breakdowns, getting cleared out at line outs and we know they have electric speed in the backs but just remember this lads, we are playing the better rugby so go back out there and keep at it"

I really can't bear to tell you the final score - perhaps Todd has been to the same coaching school as our 2nd team skipper that day

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 22:00
Quins and saints have also been relegated, so would you trade their current position and that relegation for that win? I could go either way, on balance I'd rather not be relegated.

Wasps won it 2008 and don't look any more like winning it again than us. They had a long purple patch as did we before them.

So you're really asking "why aren't we Saracens, Exeter or Leicester" and to be honest tiggers seem on the wane.

So basically there's about 2 teams that are really challengers, plus a few one season wonders, in any 5 year period and we've not been one of those 4 in the last 10 years (though we nearly had a one season wonder). That shouldn't be a massive surprise.

I would say that, along with Wasps, tiggers, sarries and potentially exe, we are one of 4 or 5 teams that have ever had a sustained run of success in what I'd call modern rugby.

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 22:08
More navel gazing by some!

(Sm120)

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
06 January, 2019 22:41
Quote:
DanWiley
Quins and saints have also been relegated, so would you trade their current position and that relegation for that win? I could go either way, on balance I'd rather not be relegated.
Wasps won it 2008 and don't look any more like winning it again than us. They had a long purple patch as did we before them.

So you're really asking "why aren't we Saracens, Exeter or Leicester" and to be honest tiggers seem on the wane.

So basically there's about 2 teams that are really challengers, plus a few one season wonders, in any 5 year period and we've not been one of those 4 in the last 10 years (though we nearly had a one season wonder). That shouldn't be a massive surprise.

I would say that, along with Wasps, tiggers, sarries and potentially exe, we are one of 4 or 5 teams that have ever had a sustained run of success in what I'd call modern rugby.

Quins have won multiple trophies since being relegated, not just the Premiership. Likewise Saints, including Heineken Cup Final appearances. Wasps have won Heineken Cups, hell, even an Anglo Welsh Cup. Tigers won a trophy most years for most of the last decade or two. Even, Gloucester, yes Gloucester have won a couple of trophies.

There are 2 teams AT THE MOMENT who are challengers, yes, but most of the Premiership has won a trophy in the last decade, we haven't won anything. And it's the delusional, "we're not that bad" attitude you see by some people on here that, if it's also present in the squad, is a good reason why we haven't done anthing of note in a long time.

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 03:00
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
DanWiley
Quins and saints have also been relegated, so would you trade their current position and that relegation for that win? I could go either way, on balance I'd rather not be relegated.
Wasps won it 2008 and don't look any more like winning it again than us. They had a long purple patch as did we before them.

So you're really asking "why aren't we Saracens, Exeter or Leicester" and to be honest tiggers seem on the wane.

So basically there's about 2 teams that are really challengers, plus a few one season wonders, in any 5 year period and we've not been one of those 4 in the last 10 years (though we nearly had a one season wonder). That shouldn't be a massive surprise.

I would say that, along with Wasps, tiggers, sarries and potentially exe, we are one of 4 or 5 teams that have ever had a sustained run of success in what I'd call modern rugby.

Quins have won multiple trophies since being relegated, not just the Premiership. Likewise Saints, including Heineken Cup Final appearances. Wasps have won Heineken Cups, hell, even an Anglo Welsh Cup. Tigers won a trophy most years for most of the last decade or two. Even, Gloucester, yes Gloucester have won a couple of trophies.

There are 2 teams AT THE MOMENT who are challengers, yes, but most of the Premiership has won a trophy in the last decade, we haven't won anything. And it's the delusional, "we're not that bad" attitude you see by some people on here that, if it's also present in the squad, is a good reason why we haven't done anthing of note in a long time.

Quins were relegated in 2005. In addition to winning the Prem, Quins won Big Vase in 2011. That's two things. Although I am prepared to concede that two things are more than one thing, I'm not really sure two things allows one to say "multiple things", especially when one is using the argument to conclude that Quins have been a winning machine. That would be like saying that Bath are a very bad team because of the "multiple times" we've been relegated.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 07:04
I don’t even understand how a trawl through the last 20 years of the premiership for all the teams in it is of relevance to today’s team in a different era of the game with different owners, coaches, players and most importantly the point of this thread... are we saying that in the last 20 years other prem teams haven’t thrown games away and Bath have? Or just more doom and gloom for the sake of it?

[Also, I have posted this before but Wasps seem to have been the team who really struggled in the last 20s:

[www.coventrytelegraph.net]

Not since the comeback away at Gloucester to secure a 25-25 draw has Dai Young's side ended a match in the ascendancy, winning the final 20 minutes 19-7 on that occasion to silence Kingsholm.

Only twice in their last 10 games have Wasps won the final quarter, the other being the rout of Harlequins while down to 14 men but even that last section was just 12-7 to Wasps in a game they won by 22 points.
]



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2019 09:30 by BathMatt53.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 07:56
We won the ECC within the scope of your list.
Wasps won the HEC in 2007? And the aw in 2006?
I don't even vaguely remember what or when glaws won anything.

Tiggers have enjoyed remarkable success. No doubt.

Sarries and Exeter's success will come and go, and then they'll probably go through years of "transition" just like wasps and ourselves have, and I suspect tiggers are about to enjoy.

No team can demand a seat at the top table in perpetuity. If you are an owner you can run a good club and hope things come together due an extended period. As a fan you need to accept that there's very little you can do to influence your team.

Edit: I agree with Matt, I suspect we throw away no more games than many other teams in the league and quite often enjoy games being throw at us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2019 07:57 by DanWiley.

 
B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 10:27
If you think you will be beaten you already are.

 
seb
seb (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 10:42
Perhaps it skips generations? 96 Cup final vs Leicester - probably should have lost but Leicester (Neil Back) lost the plot and the 98 final vs Brice. Both games tight but closed out successfully . There are many other examples from the 90’s

 
Bath Supporter Jack

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 10:50
Interesting watching Saracens loosing to Sale.

Having been outplayed for 65 minutes they still salvaged a losing bonus point in the last minute and made time for Sale to KO back to them.....

 
cookiecrumble
cookiecrumble (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 11:00
Quote:
DanWiley
Sarries and Exeter's success will come and go, and then they'll probably go through years of "transition" just like wasps and ourselves have

I’m sure this will change over the next couple seasons, but Exeter have only won 1 prem title, and some AW cups. They get spoken about in the same bracket as Saracens, but Saracens have won prem titles and H-Cups. Exeter have only won as many prem titles as Saints and Quins, as on late.

I expect Chiefs will go on and win the Prem this year and prove me wrong! Although I do think they are at a crossroads at the moment, specifically with more of their players getting picked for England compared to previous years, and big naming signings like Hogg, which hasn’t been their ‘style’ to date. Maybe it will be the final piece of the puzzle that leads them into a period of dominance, like Sarries.

 
samlee99
samlee99 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 11:42
Quote:
cookiecrumble
Quote:
DanWiley
Sarries and Exeter's success will come and go, and then they'll probably go through years of "transition" just like wasps and ourselves have

I’m sure this will change over the next couple seasons, but Exeter have only won 1 prem title, and some AW cups. They get spoken about in the same bracket as Saracens, but Saracens have bought prem titles and H-Cups. Exeter have only won as many prem titles as Saints and Quins, as on late.

Exeter and Quins titles wins weren't tarnished though.

 
TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 11:47
I think Exeter will find it increasingly difficult to maintain their squad size and depth as more of their team are recognised by England. This usually leads to greater salary demands and more requirement for injury cover. This inevitably has a knock on effect to the rest of the squad and ability to stay within the cap. I believe (I may be wrong) that the average age of their squad was quite low, this again will increase salary pressure when trying to retain their current incumbents

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 11:53
Quote:
DanWiley
Edit: I agree with Matt, I suspect we throw away no more games than many other teams in the league and quite often enjoy games being throw at us.

Oh come on.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 12:07
BO unless you or I or anyone really wants to crunch the numbers for the last 5, 10 or 20 years matches it just comes down to perception (i.e. confirmation bias). My view is that we notice Bath throwing away leads a lot more than we notice other teams throwing away leads.

Sarries last weekend were up and lost:

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

as did Bristol

[premiershiprugby.com]

bristol did it to newcastle the week before:

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

In every round there are games where one team lets a lead go. Its not just Bath.



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
opti
Optimist (IP Logged)

Re: Throwing games away
07 January, 2019 12:11
bo - of your 11 games, we actually won 3 and drew 2 - you're actually citing games that we won as illustrations of the premise 'throwing games away'.

But for FB's bizarrely catastrophic micro-second, Toulouse effectively 'threw the game away'. In the Glos game, both sides could be accused of 'throwing it away'.

You're basically being proven right on many points, but why the need to exaggerate? It's like having an open goal from 2 yards, feeling the need to smash the ball as hard as you can, hitting the bar and the ball dribbling over the line off your backside. You score - but it also makes it hard to take you seriously.


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