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MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 11:23
DT reporting that RFU to consider this week to 13 team for two years. Premier clubs have to agree. Think DT is behind a paywall but will try and copy and paste the article.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 13:23
The extract:
"The Premiership may be expanded to 13 clubs from the end of next season in a move that would guarantee newly promoted London Irish at least two years in the top flight.

The proposal, from Premiership Rugby, would mean no club being relegated from the 12-team league to the Championship next season. Newcastle, the relegated side this season, are expected to make a swift return.

The plan will be considered by the Rugby Football Union management board this week. Also up for discussion will be a move to end automatic promotion and relegation from the 2021/22 season by replacing it with a two-legged play-off between the club who finish bottom and the winners of the Championship.


Source: RFU ring fencing proposal



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Sadly injured for the rest of the season!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 14:39
Another two league games to slip into a very congested fixture list

Not saying I disagree with it, though personally I'm still on the side of competitive sport requires promotion/relegation, it is just the logistics and impact on players' bodies

 
TomReagan
TomReagan (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 14:56
Of course if there is no relegation there is less pressure to pick players who need resting. Anyway, I got engrossed for too long in this debate a few months back- I can see arguments on both sides, so won't be tempted to get involved in the heated and protracted debate that will no doubt ensue!

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 15:01
Quote:
gaz59
Another two league games to slip into a very congested fixture list

Dump the pointless Premiership rugby cup and that creates the needed space.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
warrenball
warrenball (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 16:35
As most people assumed and the obvious reason the management are happy to go with a cut price coaching team and poor signings for next year.

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 16:43
Quote:
warrenball
As most people assumed and the obvious reason the management are happy to go with a cut price coaching team and poor signings for next year.

Cant argue with the coaching team but signings make sense to me, whats wrong with them?



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Sadly injured for the rest of the season!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 16:49
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
warrenball
As most people assumed and the obvious reason the management are happy to go with a cut price coaching team and poor signings for next year.

Cant argue with the coaching team but signings make sense to me, whats wrong with them?

I would say more lack of quality 9/10 rather than problems with the new signings we've actually made.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 16:55
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
gaz59
Another two league games to slip into a very congested fixture list

Dump the pointless Premiership rugby cup and that creates the needed space.

In what way is having a competition for squad players to get game time "pointless"?

I doubt Josh Bayliss, Will Vaughan, Miles Reid, Max Green and co find it "pointless". Not every game needs to be MUST WIN.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 16:59
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
gaz59
Another two league games to slip into a very congested fixture list

Dump the pointless Premiership rugby cup and that creates the needed space.

In what way is having a competition for squad players to get game time "pointless"?

I doubt Josh Bayliss, Will Vaughan, Miles Reid, Max Green and co find it "pointless". Not every game needs to be MUST WIN.

If you stopped and thought about things for a change, players like those you mentioned would actually get PL experience instead because the more experienced team members could be rested with no threat of relegation.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 18:02
At least we're admitting that it means a less competitive league.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 18:17
Quote:
DanWiley
At least we're admitting that it means a less competitive league.

As it stands it doesn't feel much like a competitive league, we only have 2 teams.

Whatever your opinion on the matter though, player health is far more important and anything that gives them more rest has to be done.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 18:24
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
warrenball
As most people assumed and the obvious reason the management are happy to go with a cut price coaching team and poor signings for next year.

Cant argue with the coaching team but signings make sense to me, whats wrong with them?

I would say more lack of quality 9/10 rather than problems with the new signings we've actually made.

I agree OB we do need 9 and probably a 10 if RP doesn't improve, plus I'm a bit concerbned about thes Freddie cramps. But I though Warrenball was referring to the signings we had made.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Sadly injured for the rest of the season!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 19:25
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
warrenball
As most people assumed and the obvious reason the management are happy to go with a cut price coaching team and poor signings for next year.

Cant argue with the coaching team but signings make sense to me, whats wrong with them?

I would say more lack of quality 9/10 rather than problems with the new signings we've actually made.

I agree OB we do need 9 and probably a 10 if RP doesn't improve, plus I'm a bit concerbned about thes Freddie cramps. But I though Warrenball was referring to the signings we had made.

Actually on reading again you could be right, personally can't see much wrong with our signings



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
12 May, 2019 23:07
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
gaz59
Another two league games to slip into a very congested fixture list

Dump the pointless Premiership rugby cup and that creates the needed space.

In what way is having a competition for squad players to get game time "pointless"?

I doubt Josh Bayliss, Will Vaughan, Miles Reid, Max Green and co find it "pointless". Not every game needs to be MUST WIN.

If you stopped and thought about things for a change, players like those you mentioned would actually get PL experience instead because the more experienced team members could be rested with no threat of relegation.

Don't move the goalposts, you've called it pointless regardless of ringfencing before now, and you suggested as much in the above post anyway. It's not a pointless cup, far from it.

And you're the last person on here who should be lecturing others about posting thoughtfully and intelligently.

 
warrenball
warrenball (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 07:39
Just to be clear I was not criticising the signings personally, next year's signings are poor because we have not addressed the obvious fragility at both 9 and 10, especially with the worry about Freddie's compartment syndrome.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 07:41
Could it be this season instead? Daily Mail article



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 07:49
A relegation play off would be totally pointless as the championship side just won't have the player quality to compete unless a seriously big backer comes in and us prepared to lose a hell of a lot

Might as well make it a closed club and hsve done with it

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 08:00
How about letting the team top of the championship play against all the teams in the prem, home and away, and comparing that to how they do against each other?

If they are playing too many games, reduce the number of games, don't make the games themselves less interesting and less important.

Be honest, the only reason this is happening is to make money.

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 08:21
Quote:
DanWiley
...don't make the games themselves less interesting and less important.
Be honest, the only reason this is happening is to make money.

Games at the bottom are already not interesting and their importance doesn't help that.

Teams like London Welsh offered even less when they were admitted to the Prem. To keep alive the hope of another Exe the Prem indulged teams like Welsh. They weren't more interesting seasons.

Still I think the missed the boat. Do it one season earlier and Yorkshire could have had representation. Instead that region is lost, it riches presumably spread to Newcastle and Sale.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 08:25
Quote:
gaz59
A relegation play off would be totally pointless as the championship side just won't have the player quality to compete unless a seriously big backer comes in and us prepared to lose a hell of a lot
Might as well make it a closed club and hsve done with it

I think its entirely possible that a flying London Irish could beat an under functioning Newcastle or Leicester in a one off. Though player ability will play a big part I agree.



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Sadly injured for the rest of the season!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg

 
Beergoggles
Beergoggles (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 08:30
Quote:
gaz59
A relegation play off would be totally pointless as the championship side just won't have the player quality to compete unless a seriously big backer comes in and us prepared to lose a hell of a lot
Might as well make it a closed club and hsve done with it

You don't think London Irish v Newcastle (2019) or Bristol v London Irish (2018) would have been competitive over 2 legs ? I'd rather straight promotion and relegation but if not a playoff is better than a closed shop.

 
MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 09:23
Heard this morning from a pal of mine who is well connected in Northern Prem rugby circles it has been agreed between the key stakeholders that Newcastle won't be playing in the Championship next season...



Adopted players: 2018/19 Michael Van Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 09:31
"Games at the bottom are already not interesting and their importance doesn't help that. "

I disagree. I don't really see why that would be the case? The difference in quality across the premiership really isn't that great, the gulf is between 2nd and 3rd if anywhere, but then we beat sarries.

Either way I enjoy them, doubtless you get dull games at the bottom, you also get them at the top.

When two teams such out their B teams because there's nothing to play for, then they might become dull, less talented games.

 
warrenball
warrenball (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 09:49
Surely the relegation issue for this season was agreed at the start of the season, it cannot be changed now just to suit the owners of the relegated club. Effectively the owners are saying that because they have put money into the clubs they have bought the right to be a Premiership club regardless of how useless they are in running and managing a rugby club.

Ironic that it was John Hall at Newcastle that bulldozed the RFU into accepting the era of professional rugby and now they are crying foul at the cost of being relegated.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 10:14
Warren, I think we'll find they'll already have in mind who they want in a ringfenced league, it almost certainly includes Newcastle so whether they get relegated or not really isn't too important.

As already hinted I suspect they do want a geographic distribution, for example Leeds, so with us sandwiched between Bris, Glaws, Exeter to the South, Irish to the east with very little local population or commerce to call our own it makes me rather uncomfortable.

The irony is I suspect the reason people like the idea of ringfencing is that it protects us as a top flight club. In reality I suspect it does from a rugby perspective, which has never really been a problem given the insulation of parachute payments, but puts our future entirely in the hands of the commercial side of the game. Bath as a brand they'll want to keep, Bath as a small club in what would be a moderate town I'm less convinced by.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 10:50
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
gaz59
A relegation play off would be totally pointless as the championship side just won't have the player quality to compete unless a seriously big backer comes in and us prepared to lose a hell of a lot
Might as well make it a closed club and hsve done with it

You don't think London Irish v Newcastle (2019) or Bristol v London Irish (2018) would have been competitive over 2 legs ? I'd rather straight promotion and relegation but if not a playoff is better than a closed shop.

That's not comparing like with like, the game will have moved on

A 13 team premiership would mean something like Newcastle Falcons playing Ealing or Bedford

Can only see one very comfortable outcome from that over two legs

 
BerkeleyWood
The Bear (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 10:52
Quote:
DanWiley

The irony is I suspect the reason people like the idea of ringfencing is that it protects us as a top flight club.

If we went down we would only come back up. What's to fear except losing some star players and a season of winning every game.

Having two prem teams yo-yoing between the league's isn't exciting and yet that is far more preferable than another London Welsh.

Not to mention the damage to established clubs from non-established clubs usurping them even though they aren't close to sustainable in the long term. Leeds never recovered from relegation. That's a loss not a gain.

Quote:
DanWiley
In reality I suspect it does from a rugby perspective, which has never really been a problem given the insulation of parachute payments, but puts our future entirely in the hands of the commercial side of the game. Bath as a brand they'll want to keep, Bath as a small club in what would be a moderate town I'm less convinced by.

Relegation won't change that. If they want to franchise the teams that's a different battle. They don't own the clubs. If the owner wants to move the club he can do so already (and face the costs).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 11:29
"If we went down we would only come back up. What's to fear except losing some star players and a season of winning every game. "

You tell me, I want to keep relegation, but I sense that many are behind it for that reason, I really can't see what else is in it for most fans?

"Having two prem teams yo-yoing between the league's isn't exciting and yet that is far more preferable than another London Welsh. "

I quite like the way the set of teams changes season to season, having the same set of fixtures seems rather dull.

I can't say Leeds didn't deserve to go down, they were flirting with relegation for a few years before it happened and they haven't looked like contenders since. I don't see it as a good thing artificially promoting teams for geographic, historic or financial reasons.

Removing relegation makes franchising possible. It's a clear shift from making rugby to finance being the determining factor. It's justified on that basis "people won't invest whilst there's a risk of relegation."

 
warrenball
warrenball (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 13:33
Rather than ring fencing the Premiership I would prefer to see a smaller Premiership with relegation to a more competitive 1st division. That would improve the nature of the lower league and avoid one team dominating as often happens now and improve the quality of the Premiership clubs. It would also avoid some of the clashes between Premiership and International matches which result in devalued, under strength club games.

This of course would not fit well with the money men and I cannot see it happening but a smaller Premiership could give some extra space to the crowded calendar and give the top players more recovery time.

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 13:54
Quote:
warrenball
Rather than ring fencing the Premiership I would prefer to see a smaller Premiership with relegation to a more competitive 1st division.

Whilst not many would disagree with this the fact is that there are hardly any teams with the infrastructure or fan base to become strong enough to compete in a league with relegated sides (at the moment). After all, next season that would have been Newcastle, Leicester and Worcester against Doncaster, London Scottish, Hartpury College etc? So, I guess you pump money directly into that league to get them signing better players and then they have to move stadium and rustle up 10000 fans...

Topsy Ojo summed up the current system pretty eloquently - he wants ring fencing for a period in which those teams can grow, so a hybrid of the two trains of thought. This also stops teams gonig bust in the meantime hopefully.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
13 May, 2019 16:29
I can't see temporary ringfencing as anything other than a stepping stone to permanent ringfencing. Surely you have (or hopefully haven't) fallen for that before?

I feel like the threat of going bust is overplayed, the reason we lose so much is because we talked up the salary cap and introduced marquee players. Prior to that our loses were pretty moderate, like signing a journeyman rather than a star would have made the difference or perhaps a ticket would cost a couple of quid more.

I don't particularly like the idea, but if too much rugby is the problem you want to solve, then two conferences makes some sense. You could still have promotion, the league splits at national 2 anyway (?). Fewer games, less money, players might have to be paid less, but one way or another that's the result of less rugby. The idea of saying "well rinfencing will make the league less important so club can rest players" seems all sorts of reverse engineering of arguments. At the end of the day the teams at the top, with the best, most heavily used (international) players, won't rest their players.

 
Substitute
Substitute (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 00:05
Quote:
DanWiley
I feel like the threat of going bust is overplayed, the reason we lose so much is because we talked up the salary cap and introduced marquee players. Prior to that our loses were pretty moderate...

Is that true? Given recent inflation, it seems not much different to me.

Still, I wouldn't want to lose relegation. I don't want to be like the Pro12. I don't want to be like the Irish or Welsh sides. I want the threat of relegation to keep teams on their toes. I don't want reserves thrown out 25% of the season. But most of all, I don't want less rugby or more meaningless weeks.

I'm sure Newcastle will win promotion next season. But better that than them deciding they're bottom whatever and putting out the youngsters. And you never know, we might get a new Exeter.

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 07:21
Or just come clean, say itís about regionalism. Get say Newcastle, Yorkshire & Pirates into the league and then lock it.

J

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 08:06
I understand we currently lose the order of millions when we used to lose the order of 100s of k, and low 100s of k. That's some inflation.

I get we are spending on the stadium.

I also know the salery cap had gone up and there are now marquee players, that probably accounts for most of that loss, but then we've been the ones pushing for that. Has it bought us, or anyone, a better squad? Not really.

Whether in practical terms it is the case or not, many tiggers fans feel, or felt, that the club was theirs. I don't think it's an accidence that they've long had a club culture and can claim by far the longest period of time at the top of the game*. I was really disappointed to learn that Bath fans, on here at any rate, don't feel that ownership, as I said then, we contribute an order of magnitude more money than anyone else.

*Yes, I appreciate this isn't the best season to make this point. But I expect this will be am outlier.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 08:41
In the last 22 years since professionalism the club has had profits in 3 years, losses <£1m 7 times and >£1m 12 times. The last loss <£1m loss was 2009.

The club's finances are not affected by the development.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/05/2019 08:57 by CoochieCoo.

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 16:13
That doesn't look great when you break it down over the years CC. I'm not an accountant, this is profit/loss after tax, probably not the best metric, but its seems to reflect the others. I'm not sure what happened prior to 2000 (when did the rec start to expand?) But there seems to me to be a clear watershed when BC came in and ramped up the cap.

2018 -3148000
2017 -2500000
2016 -1200000
2015 -1790000
2014 -2975000
2013 -3776000
2012 -2789000
2011 -1820000
2010 -1258000
2009 -499000
2008 -356000
2007 -28000
2006 283000
2005 134000
2004 79000
2003 20000
2002 -122000
2001 -193000
2000 -1087000
1999 -1655000

Apologies for any transposition errors, the data is all online (easy to google) if you want to look.

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 17:17
Bruce took over in 2010. The wage bill has doubled from £6.4m to £12.9m with players and team management going up from 57 to 86 but non playing staff has gone up considerably from 29 to 60! A lot of the costs making those losses will be for the extra capacity temporary seating as I think we were around the 10,000 mark then, now 14,500. I think we seem to be using the extra cap on a larger squad rather than throwing big money at a few stars.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 17:53
Surely we should be making money out of that extra seating?

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 17:56
As long as BC wants to support the club the losses are of little relevance.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
DanWiley
DanWiley (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 18:09
In wider terms that might be a true but very dangerous positron to be in.

In the context of the comment that 'I feel we'd actually be a better club, in all sorts of ways, if the fans felt a more integral part of the club' the 'oh thank you Bruce for saving us from the debt you've created' point of view isn't helpful. Particularly when it's bought us very little success.

 
MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 18:13
Quote:
DanWiley
In wider terms that might be a true but very dangerous positron to be in.
In the context of the comment that 'I feel we'd actually be a better club, in all sorts of ways, if the fans felt a more integral part of the club' the 'oh thank you Bruce for saving us from the debt you've created' point of view isn't helpful. Particularly when it's bought us very little success.

To be honest I'm not sure I need to feel connected to the club, I just want to see trophies in the cabinet. As it stands I'm more than happy for BC to support the club and if he didn't want to anymore I guess another rich guy would come along.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

 
MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
14 May, 2019 18:14
Quote:
DanWiley
Surely we should be making money out of that extra seating?

I believe they mentioned 16k is break even but remember there was a lot of upheaval moving from Lambridge and the University to training at Farleigh which would have had a cost. It was also mentioned the temporary stands have a cost of £1m a year putting up and taking down.



http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 07:52
Won't be long and GP promotion spot will be a play off final at Twickenham a la footy

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 08:09
With about 4 spectators...



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 09:10
I'm with DanWiley on this one.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 10:06
Quote:
DanWiley
In wider terms that might be a true but very dangerous positron to be in.
In the context of the comment that 'I feel we'd actually be a better club, in all sorts of ways, if the fans felt a more integral part of the club' the 'oh thank you Bruce for saving us from the debt you've created' point of view isn't helpful. Particularly when it's bought us very little success.

The social dynamic theory known as the Drama Triangle [Karpman] could be easily applied here.

The persecutor could be: debt, the RFU, Exeter, Saracens, Nimbys and historical/legal barriers to Rec development or others or all of these

The victim: Fans

The rescuer: Bruce

A recognition for being a significant part of the solution and having ownership and responsibility for developing and implementing that part in the solution is the way to break out of the triangle

Otherwise continue with the role of victim, be forever grateful and accept the fate that goes with it

 
annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 10:32
Lots of theories and possible consequences above. My only serious query is whether all this change will improve the quality of English professional rugby within the Premiership (or whatever the group ends up being named). Do hope those involved directly keep this in mind.

"Watch this space".

 
warrenball
warrenball (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 11:59
In your triangle, Gaz, what happens when the would be rescuer ends up to be the persecutor, eithe because the rescue was botched or he was never really interested in the victim in the first place?

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 12:32
It is never a position of fact but one of perception. And you are right the rescuer can be perceived as a persecutor in certain circumstances including the scenario you suggest warrenball

But it is still a perceived position which the 'victim' needs to understand, reframe and take responsibility/accountability otherwise it simply becomes another way in which the 'victim' perpetuates the triangle so nothing changes

It is also closely to linked to what is called Transactional Analysis - try googling it. All good stuff

 
cb2
cb2 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
15 May, 2019 12:35
I can't stop thinking about the crowd at the Sarries Euro semi and the lack of interest, amongst neutral fans, for the Champions Cup final. Club rugby has hit a brick wall in Europe, just look at Wales, and dramatic change needs to happen to how the game is marketed. I have been going on about it for years. Have only 1 European club competition run like the NFL. Ditch domestic leagues, have conferences based on past rivalry and make it simpler for the fans to follow. Fewer games, with each game being a bigger occasion. Everything leads to a play-off and a final.

 
Omba
Omba (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
16 May, 2019 10:44
I dont know about a lack of interest for the Euro Finals.....have you tried to book a hotel in Marseille for next year?

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
16 May, 2019 11:40
Quote:
cb2
I can't stop thinking about the crowd at the Sarries Euro semi and the lack of interest, amongst neutral fans, for the Champions Cup final. Club rugby has hit a brick wall in Europe, just look at Wales, and dramatic change needs to happen to how the game is marketed. I have been going on about it for years. Have only 1 European club competition run like the NFL. Ditch domestic leagues, have conferences based on past rivalry and make it simpler for the fans to follow. Fewer games, with each game being a bigger occasion. Everything leads to a play-off and a final.

You kidding cb? I could only watch the final on the tele but the atmosphere looked and sounded amazing. What club and fan wouldn't want to be a part of that

Saracens don't seem to have the biggest fanbase as yet and only getting 17k for a semi at the Ricoh against Munster must have down to other factors. Wasps v Bath in the league was 30k plus, imagine if that had been a HC semi?

 
BathMatt53
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
16 May, 2019 11:57
Agreed. I was lucky enough to be at St James Park and the whole town was rocking on the Saturday, from the Quayside carnival / festival upwards. Not many Sarries fans there from what I could see (certainly compared with Leinster) but as said above that reflects on Sarries more than the competition IMO. Based on the Clash, Bath could fill it by themselves if we ever had a sniff of getting anywhere in Europe, as would plenty of other Prem teams (Bristol, Tigers, Exe etc.).



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

 
ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
17 May, 2019 21:15
Sarries are those upstarts who have got too big too soon. Their fan base doesnít match their team. (Yes, I know, fans donít win trophies) but you need to have some pedigree IMHO not to be seen by others as a joke.

If it were Leicester, Quins or date I say it Gloucester, I could take it more seriously. Doesnít help they have been ground sharing nomads for years.

Do they even sell out their home games?

J

 
MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
18 May, 2019 00:38
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Sarries are those upstarts who have got too big too soon. Their fan base doesnít match their team. (Yes, I know, fans donít win trophies) but you need to have some pedigree IMHO not to be seen by others as a joke.
If it were Leicester, Quins or date I say it Gloucester, I could take it more seriously. Doesnít help they have been ground sharing nomads for years.

Do they even sell out their home games?

J

Saracens were established in 1876 so hardly either upstarts or "too big too soon".

What they've done is got things right. I've no doubt that their player remuneration strategies sail very, very close to the wind but what about ours when we paid boot money in our highly successful amateur days?

Rugby is a game based on systematic cheating. If that offends you, then more charitably, finding an edge. Saracens currently occupy the edge but they won't be there on their own for long because the advantages of being there are too obvious. I think Exeter have taken their game plan as far as it will go, so I think Saints under Chris Boyd will be Sarries next challengers.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
18 May, 2019 03:42
Quote:
cb2
I can't stop thinking about the crowd at the Sarries Euro semi and the lack of interest, amongst neutral fans, for the Champions Cup final. Club rugby has hit a brick wall in Europe, just look at Wales, and dramatic change needs to happen to how the game is marketed. I have been going on about it for years. Have only 1 European club competition run like the NFL. Ditch domestic leagues, have conferences based on past rivalry and make it simpler for the fans to follow. Fewer games, with each game being a bigger occasion. Everything leads to a play-off and a final.

I have to say that sounds ghastly.

 
gaz59
gaz59 (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
18 May, 2019 10:30
[quote joethefanatic][quote ChippenhamRoman]Sarries are those upstarts who have got too big too soon. Their fan base doesnít match their team. (Yes, I know, fans donít win trophies) but you need to have some pedigree IMHO not to be seen by others as a joke.

If it were Leicester, Quins or date I say it Gloucester, I could take it more seriously. Doesnít help they have been ground sharing nomads for years.

Do they even sell out their home games?

J[/quote]

Very myopic

For example, they do some exceptional stuff in the community - they are the first rugby [sports?] club to open a Free School where top players went in on first day and handed out school blazers, there is Saracens logo on school uniform and sports kit, motivational quotes and player images around the school corridors etc - that will certainly build a very strong, sustained fanbase and it goes wider than just the kids in school, it involves the whole family

Our community work is very good indeed but as with the rugby Saracens are at another level

It is a long term strategy and all part of a strong 'whole club' vision that thankfully Bruce, Tarquin and Hoops are just starting to understand

 
ballsout
ballsout (IP Logged)

Re: Ring fencing from next season?
18 May, 2019 11:46
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Sarries are those upstarts who have got too big too soon. Their fan base doesnít match their team. (Yes, I know, fans donít win trophies) but you need to have some pedigree IMHO not to be seen by others as a joke.
If it were Leicester, Quins or date I say it Gloucester, I could take it more seriously. Doesnít help they have been ground sharing nomads for years.

Do they even sell out their home games?

J

What a dumb post


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