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MESSAGES->author
Break the bank
drifter (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 17:14
Just watched Sharks v Lions. Apart from one huge mistake break the bank for Elton Jantjies.
whatever it takes to buy him out or get him here it will be worth it. 83% kick success and runs the game from 10 so well. otherwise I see us having a troubled season till Hougard gets back.

 
t-unit
Re: Break the bank
t-unit (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 18:05
Is this the same Elton Jantjies who starts at 10 for the same international team as FH?

 
Offa
Re: Break the bank
Offa (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 18:13
Would be very happy. He would be unavailable for the same chunk of the season. Thought this rumour had already been quashed.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Break the bank
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 18:31
Think he is under contract too which means compo on top of big salary demands

 
usa warrior
Re: Break the bank
usa warrior (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 19:16
GG had said we weren't in for him, but who knows. Release fee would be mega I'd have thought.

May find out more next week with season finishing although Lions have a qualifier.

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Break the bank
ROLLO (IP Logged)
16 July, 2017 13:40
Fissler says in the RT today that we are looking for a temporary replacement for Hougaard who will be unavailable until December( he will probably be entitled to a bit of a holiday)
We are also looking for a stand-off, lock and tight-head prop. A number of SH players are in the frame but nowhere near any conclusion.
I don't know if this is old news re-hashed or an update. One can't really argue with the conclusions ,at least with the first three positions, my view is that we are more in need of a loose-head.

 
AJWarriors
Re: Break the bank
AJWarriors (IP Logged)
16 July, 2017 13:49
It was a loose head he said wasn't it Rollo?

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Break the bank
ROLLO (IP Logged)
16 July, 2017 14:41
Correct AJ need to go to SpecSavers. So agreement on all four positions, but what do you think are the chances?

 
AJWarriors
Re: Break the bank
AJWarriors (IP Logged)
16 July, 2017 16:31
No idea mate. As you say mate they will be more than likely SH players. If it's a short term thing with Francois I think we would need a like for like kind of player in terms of calibre...the other guys is anyone's guess I suppose. We could do what Sarries did a get a few top guys on short term deals like they did with Will Skelton last season

 
FlipFlop
Re: Break the bank
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
16 July, 2017 16:56
Wonder if any planning to potentially join Pro14 idea, might decide to come to the Prem instead?

 
Little Mazda 2
Re: Break the bank
16 July, 2017 22:20
Quote:
AJWarriors
No idea mate. As you say mate they will be more than likely SH players. If it's a short term thing with Francois I think we would need a like for like kind of player in terms of calibre...the other guys is anyone's guess I suppose. We could do what Sarries did a get a few top guys on short term deals like they did with Will Skelton last season

Calling folk 'mate" is IMO a bit disrespectful. I"m sure you didn't mean it.

 
AJWarriors
Re: Break the bank
AJWarriors (IP Logged)
16 July, 2017 23:53
I actually just stared at the screen for a few seconds in disbelief...not exactly sure what to reply to that? Disrespectful? Must be a generation thing? I'm a bit confused?

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 04:55
Quote:
AJWarriors
I actually just stared at the screen for a few seconds in disbelief...not exactly sure what to reply to that? Disrespectful? Must be a generation thing? I'm a bit confused?

Psssst...AJ - it's Reggie's Ghost


I have some salt here, help yourself to a pinch smiling smiley it's the Internet, don't take it so literally...buddy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/07/2017 04:56 by TVM Rides Again.

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Break the bank
ROLLO (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 07:24
I don't mind what I am called providing it isn't comrade.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Break the bank
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:04
Quote:
ROLLO
I don't mind what I am called providing it isn't comrade.

Well said Sir.

At least he didn't call you "blood" in a faux Jamaican London accent innit.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Break the bank
Abberley (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:06
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
Psssst...AJ - it's Reggie's Ghost
I have some salt here, help yourself to a pinch smiling smiley it's the Internet, don't take it so literally...buddy

Reggie's Ghost may, perhaps inadvertently, have a point.

We don't know from his her their board profile whether ROLLO is Australian nor, more importantly for maintaining the political correctness of the board, their gender.

Having said that, I'm not sure what the gender-neutral equivalent of 'Mate' would be?

Most of my Australian acquaintances seem to refer to female friends as 'Guys' - which doesn't really help confused smiley

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Break the bank
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:25
No, not Australian.

Every sentence does not start with "Ah look...."

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Break the bank
ROLLO (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:27
Abberley the first ROLLO was a Viking warrior c 900 AD who conquered Normandy and who's successors became known as the Normans. It was also the name of a crazy standard poodle that was once our family pet. I am not Australian but English with some paternal Welsh grandparents and yes male.
Back to topic, do we think that we will see any of these signings? I think it is important that we do.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Break the bank
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:29
London Underground has recently advised their station announcers to no longer refer to customers as 'ladies and gentlemen' and profer a simple good morning / evening in attempting to address gender neutrality within their customer base.

I surely hope this kind of politically correct 'adjustment' doesn't need to slip into life on here.

 
Patgadd
Re: Break the bank
Patgadd (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:38
Quote:
FlipFlop
London Underground has recently advised their station announcers to no longer refer to customers as 'ladies and gentlemen' and proffer a simple good morning / evening in attempting to address gender neutrality within their customer base.

Spot the four utterly unnecessary and fatuous words.

(I know it's not you, FF; just London Underground coming up with a primary example of management-speak.)

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:39
Quote:
Abberley
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
Psssst...AJ - it's Reggie's Ghost
I have some salt here, help yourself to a pinch smiling smiley it's the Internet, don't take it so literally...buddy

Reggie's Ghost may, perhaps inadvertently, have a point.

We don't know from his her their board profile whether ROLLO is Australian nor, more importantly for maintaining the political correctness of the board, their gender.

Having said that, I'm not sure what the gender-neutral equivalent of 'Mate' would be?

Most of my Australian acquaintances seem to refer to female friends as 'Guys' - which doesn't really help confused smiley

I have male and female acquaintances who i refer to as mate and who refer to me as likewise.

Mate is perfectly gender neutral as a phrase. Guys - once again something I use as a collective term regardless of gender

Nice example of the evolution of language.

I know it is a topic that many people get vexed and entrenched about and change is heavily resisted, culminating in a huge amount of hair splitting and preaching about precise definitions.

However, people tend to lose sight of the fact that evolution of language is the reason that we aren't all saying

'But thine opinion dost distresse me so, good sire, for it doth put me betwixt a rock and a hard place.

I think my main point is that people should stop resisting this sort of thing so hard for the sake of just resisting change - lest we all end up talking like Shakespeare.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17/07/2017 08:45 by TVM Rides Again.

 
A38
Re: Break the bank
A38 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 09:07
Anyway, back to the theme of this post - I'm not uncomfortable with the composition of the squad as it stands although, obviously, strengthening in key areas would not be unwelcome.

One problem though in making any assessment - particularly when comparing our squad with others - is that we are a touch out of date with "form".

Key individuals last season had major injuries from which they are all hopefully recovered. Two of these play in the no 10 shirt - Heathcote and Shillcock - and we have no idea about how they are going to play in the coming season particularly after their respective injuries.

Equally we do not know how the new players will fit in to the squad.

And of course whilst certain players will be coming of age, others are closer to 40 than they were this time last year.

There has also been a "rearrangement" of the coaching team and we do not yet know how that will work out although we are hopeful for a greater emphasis on defence.

So, one way or another, the coming season will bring with it a number of unknowns (all new seasons do this of course) and it would not surprise me if the decision has been taken to see how things go for the first month or so whilst at the same time keeping one or two SH players "warm" in case reinforcements are necessary.

 
Southstand(again)
Re: Break the bank
Southstand(again) (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 09:46
One of the statements that did worry me was Bill Bolsovers' comments about us "walking away" from signing players and refusing to pay "Over the odds"

Those sentiments may sit well if you are a Leicester, or more recently Sarries, where young players grow up dreaming of wearing the shirt and the kudos associated with playing at a top club.

Reality check. We aren't a top club, and do need to pay over the odds to attract two or three players that we can build a team around.

I know the usual sensible comments will follow about it "Not being my money" and needing to "balance the books", but another "Truth" is that success on the field is just as likely to trigger commercial success off it. Every sponsor and his dog love winners, as will all those "Lifelong" supporters who would stream into Sixways if we ever got a "sniff" at the play-offs.

It's called investment.

 
usa warrior
Re: Break the bank
usa warrior (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 09:59
SS at some point we have to break away from being seeing as a "cash cow" and for agents to exploit our position. That seems to be happening now, however, as you've alluded to it may put us in a vulnerable position if we can't recruit well.

I do agree with BB's sentiment that we have been forced to pay over the odds for mediocre players in the past and possibly even some of those still on our books.

 
w4rriorz1980
Re: Break the bank
w4rriorz1980 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 10:25
Quote:
Southstand(again)
One of the statements that did worry me was Bill Bolsovers' comments about us "walking away" from signing players and refusing to pay "Over the odds"
Those sentiments may sit well if you are a Leicester, or more recently Sarries, where young players grow up dreaming of wearing the shirt and the kudos associated with playing at a top club.

Reality check. We aren't a top club, and do need to pay over the odds to attract two or three players that we can build a team around.

I know the usual sensible comments will follow about it "Not being my money" and needing to "balance the books", but another "Truth" is that success on the field is just as likely to trigger commercial success off it. Every sponsor and his dog love winners, as will all those "Lifelong" supporters who would stream into Sixways if we ever got a "sniff" at the play-offs.

It's called investment.
Well said

 
MSR-Worcester
Re: Break the bank
MSR-Worcester (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 10:42
Quote:
ROLLO
Fissler says in the RT today that we are looking for a temporary replacement for Hougaard who will be unavailable until December( he will probably be entitled to a bit of a holiday)
We are also looking for a stand-off, lock and tight-head prop. A number of SH players are in the frame but nowhere near any conclusion.
I don't know if this is old news re-hashed or an update. One can't really argue with the conclusions ,at least with the first three positions, my view is that we are more in need of a loose-head.

RP also says we are still searching for a loosehead, lock and fly-half. Don't rule out some late additions from Super Rugby or Japan. Melbourne Rebels are likely to have a few players become available shortly.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 12:21
Quote:
Southstand(again)
One of the statements that did worry me was Bill Bolsovers' comments about us "walking away" from signing players and refusing to pay "Over the odds"
Those sentiments may sit well if you are a Leicester, or more recently Sarries, where young players grow up dreaming of wearing the shirt and the kudos associated with playing at a top club.

Reality check. We aren't a top club, and do need to pay over the odds to attract two or three players that we can build a team around.

I know the usual sensible comments will follow about it "Not being my money" and needing to "balance the books", but another "Truth" is that success on the field is just as likely to trigger commercial success off it. Every sponsor and his dog love winners, as will all those "Lifelong" supporters who would stream into Sixways if we ever got a "sniff" at the play-offs.

It's called investment.


Well yes given their business history I should expect that the board are aware of the concept - and given they can afford to own a rugby club are probably fairly good at it!

The thing is - a rugby club ISN'T an investment. Its a most excellent way of losing lots and lots of your money.

Even the ones that do make money only really break even - and if you are after a return (and that's what an investment is...a return on capital invested) frankly I wouldn't go near ANY rugby club.

You spend what you can afford to lose - it's gambling as much as it is an investment.

And we say things like - success will bred success and supporters yada yada....and I agree with the principal.

However, if the increase in revenue would be commensurate with the additional expenditure - maybe they would have done it? I'm sure someone would say 'of course it would' without doing the maths

I don't know maybe it would. Would be interested to see some detailed accounts

 
A38
Re: Break the bank
A38 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 12:33
The problem is matching the tangible - real money - with the intangible.

I'm very much with TVM on this

 
Southstand(again)
Re: Break the bank
Southstand(again) (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 15:02
The second highest point scorer in premiership history was allowed to leave Sixways in March 2013 despite making it clear he wanted to stay.

Dai Young "snapped" him up because he recognised the value of a recognised goal kicker in the tight matches the premiership throws up. He also knew the player's experience would buy time for his young team to develop.

We are now about to enter the 2017 season, still without a recognised goal kicker and our hopes of survival, once again seemingly "pinned" on quality players coming back after the autumn internationals. Excuse me here, but it does seem rather like the deja vu of Richard Hill's Argentinian "Cavalry" arriving "Just in time" to save us.(which they didn't)

We aren't talking about "Tangible and intangible" we are simply talking about risk and what degree of the spectrum of risk we care to explore financially.

If you continue to make the same mistake time after time in business, it ceases to be a mistake it becomes a choice. I have no doubt Bill has a fantastic business brain. He also has some very talented colleagues on the board. Unfortunately all this business acumen hasn't given us a successful club, on or off the field.

If we have to spend money to address a problem we have had since 2013 why not just do it?

It's going to cost us a damn sight more trying to survive in the Championship.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 15:22
Are we at least agreed that its spending and not investing? winking smiley

 
Southstand(again)
Re: Break the bank
Southstand(again) (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 15:46
Nope. Both.

If you look at any investment there is always a degree of risk.

In the example of professional sport surely the greatest risk, if things aren't going well, is to do nothing and hope results will improve ?

I think we tried that for most of last season TVM.

Apologies for repeating myself, but if you continue to make the same mistake, time after time, in sport or business it ceases to be a mistake and becomes choice. eye rolling smiley

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:20
I'm going to argue that you are mixing your metaphores southstand.

Yea investment has risks - that is measured in yield. A 10 year government gilt for the UK will be an annual rate of 2% or so - because it's secure.

Some erratic stock returns are in the tens of percents - even the hundreds - because the risks are considerable.

Now you have taken the medium away from
Money - and that is investment in its literal sense. You are talking about spending the money to earn wins - not an annual return

Now - given the returns on offer for even super successful and legendary rugby clubs are diminimus - and we'd be chucking - potentially - a million and a bit at a fly half alone (every bit of expenditure considered) - and they alone won't get us to the play offs - so what's the return?

Ok we've won a few more close games maybe....but there isn't a financial return as you alluded to in your 'it's called investment'

I mean is a.n other fly half going to return that sort of thing single handedly?

Probably not.

so there no reason to think a similar expenditure on a loose head would do the same really - so there's no case for the more you spend the more you get back - like there can be in some things.

So whilst your millions have have bought you wins - have they matched that expenditure in revenue or bettered it?

Probably not.

I am not saying you won't win more and it won't get you what you want.

But don't call it investment. Call it what it is - expenditure. You are doing what Saracens have done - you are BUYING wins.

So you aren't telling the owners to invest.

You are telling them to buy you a new toy.

All IMHO of course

 
A38
Re: Break the bank
A38 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:38
And mine, TVM.

This cynical bean counter has seen enough business plans in my time claiming that for just a "little more investment" great things can be achieved. They rarely are.

Equally I accept what King Lear said: "Nothing will come of nothing". Some expenditure to keep the club afloat and going in the right direction is certainly right. It's just the scale of it I query.

 
Southstand(again)
Re: Break the bank
Southstand(again) (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 18:59
Sorry, TVM,

I got to your third paragraph and then got called away for gin and Game of Thrones.

Ed Sheeran ? Really ?

I'll pick up the argument when the Old tom has worn off.

You've become an "echo" A38. Try harder (Sm14)

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 22:29
Ah TL;DR - good response winking smiley


Also - was that not the single most jarring cameo in anything ever?

 
FlipFlop
Re: Break the bank
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 07:10
Nope, D Beckham in Guy Ritchie's King Arthur was the most jarring cameo ever....

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Break the bank
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 07:34
I haven't seen that one yet...I look forward to the clunkily delivered lines!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Break the bank
Abberley (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 13:01
Quote:
Southstand(again)

Reality check. We aren't a top club, and do need to pay over the odds to attract two or three players that we can build a team around.

Would appear that being a 'Top Club' no longer exempts you from having to pay over the odds sad smiley

Quote:
ruck.co.uk

Maro Itoje will reportedly become the Aviva Premiership’s first million pounds a season player after another stellar campaign for Saracens, England and the Lions.

Particularly worrying is the comment:

Quote:
ibid
The Lions second row is represented by the Stellar Group who also guide the career of Real Madrid superstar Gareth Bale.

 
A38
Re: Break the bank
A38 (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 13:40
Ouch. It's a sign of the times I suppose. JO'T a while back was lamenting the money needed to get in a prop, he implied a journeyman prop, and this is the general market place in which the club will have to operate in the future if it wants to keep up with the rest.

It does underline the very sensible decision a regime ago to invest money into the academy. (And I do use the word "invest") Home grown has many advantages but keeping home grown players will be difficult in the future if other clubs come around with ever elastic cheque books.

It's already rare for players to stay at one club all their career. I think it's going to be even rarer in the future as we see an increasing churn in the market place.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Break the bank
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 13:45
Nice work for Maro, and his Agent. Even if we could afford him, would it be good business for us?

These Agent Groups are not an unusual thing in sport. Golfers will remember Mark McCormack had a decent little circus of players on his books some 20 years or more ago, and was regarded as something of a trailblazer in this type of thing at the time.

Jorges Mendes looks after Ronaldo, Diego Costa, Jose Mourinho and David De Gea. Nice little stable of money makers there.

Mino Raiola looks after Zlatan Ibrohimovic, Paul Pogba and Henriyk Mkhitaryan all of whom moved to Manchester United last season for transfer fees of circa £120 million.

We're not at that point yet with Rugby i think, but some of the more high profile players are obviously looking to these sorts of people to get the most out of their employers.

 
halfback09
Re: Break the bank
halfback09 (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 20:02
Personally out of the springboks 10's I'd have handre pollard. He's got much better control of the game


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