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A38
Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
A38 (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 07:09
A short article on the back page of The Times says that when the RFU's professional game board meets tomorrow the structure of the game in England will dominate the debate and ringfencing will be part of it.

Inside the paper, the journalist speculates that it it is to happen it will not be for a few years.

So, the issue seems not to have gone away for long.

 
A38
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
A38 (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 08:01
A summary of the inside article:-

- Headline: Why it's time to scrap relegation from the Premiership
- Ringfencing has not gone away
- Opposition fading
- In its present form the Championship does not work, the league as a competition is a foregone conclusion
- Bristol's player salary budget of £5m is 5 times almost all of the rest.
- Luatua is on roughly twice as much as Richmond spend on their entire squad
- Second place in the Championship gets £60k
- Drama is at the other end of the league where fear of relegation means that some budgets are unaffordable but required to stay up
- Bedford and Richmond aside, all Championship clubs operate at a loss
- Exeter precedent? No one close to emulating their success
- London Welsh suicide; Bedford survived in 2000 by dropping a league
- Bristol will succeed; Yorkshire Carnegie have ambition but not close. There is no need to spend money on players if they can't catch Bristol.
- Any other Championship clubs wanting a taste of the Premiership are either lying or mad
- Different in Exeter's day: When they were promoted salary cap was £4m. Nowadays, Championship clubs spend on average £1m pa on salaries at a time when the cap is £8.5m ish taking into account marquee players etc.
- It is a leap too far to go from £1m to £8.5m which is why only clubs that go up are the ones which have just come down
- Writer suggests relegation / promotion every 4 years
- Usual arguments such as developing young players if no risk of relegation
- Problem: 13 clubs of Premiership quality currently.
- Possibly have a league of 13 but survival of the fittest?
- Most vulnerable Worcester and London Irish - both clubs up for sale
- For ringfencing to be agreed, it would have to go through a number of hurdles but "it is back on the table and it has growing support".


So, not sure on what this is all based but the writer, Owen Slot, sounds informed. It may all however be speculation.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 09:02
And itís all so easily improved.

If the greedy pigs at the RFU would stop banking the profits and support the Championship in a meaningful way we probably wouldnít even be having the conversation.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 09:17
Just waiting for the missing link of Worcester to drop and Brizz to come back up and the 'establishment' can be restored, and the RFU live happily every after in La La Land where the cash cows keep producing.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 09:49
To be honest, I don't think ringfencing has ever been off the agenda, at least as far as PRL and their RFU poodle are concerned.

They've just played the long game, letting the Championship clubs wither on the vine through lack of support, as Ted says, until it's clear that promotion is an unsustainable and unrealistic pipedream for all but the relegated club.

With proper funding, sponsorship and TV exposure the Championship could grow as a competition and perhaps provide 2-3 clubs with a realistic chance to bridge the divide but the powers that be aren't interested in such expansion.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
A38
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
A38 (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 10:04
The full text of the article appears here as almost the last post:-

[www.rolling-maul.com]

 
PMB
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
PMB (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:19
Totally agree Teflon, PRL & RFU appear to completely ignore the quality players coming into the Prem from the Championship and seem prepared to let the second tier just die. Where do they think that quality players will come from when this happens or will the influx of foreign "stars" increase? Mind you the increase in residence period to "become" English qualified increases sometime soon I believe.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 15:56
Yes, but not until 2020
[www.telegraph.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
West Brom Warrior (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 16:05
Unless the RFU get serious about the championship the ring fencing is a good idea. Make the league 14 teams and scrap the LV cup and have a proper A league structure. It is not my preferred idea but unless the RFU have a properly funded and managed second tier all that happens is 1 club goes down and comes back up the following year with the same player retention/ development issues as always.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 17:57
Quote:
TeflonTed
And itís all so easily improved.
If the greedy pigs at the RFU would stop banking the profits and support the Championship in a meaningful way we probably wouldnít even be having the conversation.

Bang on.

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
ROLLO (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 20:22
The AP is currently ring fenced with 13 teams trying to get into a 12 team league.

 
Underdog
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Underdog (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 21:41
The Guardian has it differently. Another consideration is two top leagues with two up, two down relegation, 10 teams in each, and fairer funding across both leagues.

Apparently, the premiership also want the A league expanded massively, and all clubs buddying up with second and third tier teams to ensure some continuity and a pathway to the top for more players.

Leaving aside Worcester's probable fate with the initial restructuring, it's hard to see these suggestions as anything other than sensible. As others have said, the premiership is all but ringfenced anyway, the championship is all over the place and there are too many league games for players to stay fit for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 21:51 by Underdog.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 22:29
I've been banging on about going along with Underdog's suggestion for a while now. There are 13 teams currently fit for prem rugby. There's another 2/3 clubs that probably aren't far away and another 3/4/5 clubs who need some serious financial help/infrastructure works.

IMO the LV Cup should be done away with (the B&I Cup already is, from next year) and then two leagues of properly funded 10 teams introduced. Two up two down would be good although i dont think 1 up 1 down would be a bad suggestion either, with 1 up 1 down between second and third tier as well. I would not mind seeing worcester play in a 10 team league of newcastle, bristol, pirates, ealing, bedford, leeds, nottingham, doncaster, london scottish. You would then also have a very, very competitive third tier with the likes of roth, hartpury, richmond, cov, jersey, plymouth, moseley, darlington etc.

Thing is with the 'too many league games' thing is there isnt enough for clubs to make enough money. Currently there are 30 weekends free for LV Cup and prem games (including playoff). In a 10 team league scenario i guess the best option would be to play each other three times with the possibility of 2 play off games at the end of the season, giving 29 games. Difference here of course would be the international breaks wouldnt be buffered by the LV Cup.

I think that would be a great system that would give smaller clubs a genuine pathway to the top and chance to gain proper funding. If this was the case, you would probably see them attract more funding themselves.

All pie in the sky really.

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
ROLLO (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 09:27
WS that would currently be a pretty weak league, also why would we not want to play Glos our nearest local rival whilst travelling up to Newcastle ?

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 09:49
ROLLO - just going on current standings although looking at it ive got newcastle and london irish mixed up! It would be a week league but if properly funded (as is suggested) this would hopefully improve things. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture of what is good for the domestic game in this country rather than what is good for just us. 20 teams properly funded would massively improve things, especially given that, in 3/4 years 15/16 of those clubs will have the infrastructure in place to compete in the prem anyway, just maybe short on funding.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Fiver (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 09:53
I'm seeing a smaller, more exclusive, list of clubs at the top, which coincidentally is what I believe those guys want. Teams like Worcester just get in the way.

 
Freypal
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Freypal (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 10:43
If expanding the AP into a multi tier ringfenced league and doing away with the LV, then a chat with the Welsh regions would be well received on both sides. Adds some decent rivalries and a more level playing field than the lower echelons of the championship.

Would also be very marketable from a broadcasters view.

This would be my preference although having both Welsh and English ties I am perhaps more biased. The regions are not happy in the Pro 14.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 11:49
Freypal that would be my preference too. You really would have two strong teams if this happened

 
ROLLO on tour
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
ROLLO (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 14:50
WS can you imagine what our gates would be like playing LI, Bristol. Pirates, Ealing, Bedford, Nottingham, Doncaster and London Scottish & Leeds? We would be lucky to average 5K so where would the loss of revenue be made up from, not to mention the loss of supporters ? I for one am not prepared to sacrifice Worcester Warriors for some nobler notion of the good of professional rugby which is what I think you are suggesting?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 14:58
14 club prem, 2 up2 down 2nd by playoff between 11th in Prem and 2nd in Champ. Get rid of LV.

JP

 
Ronster
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Drahm for England (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 15:30
Perhaps two leagues of 8 to start with and then keep the LV cup for now? 12 + Bristol, Leeds and 2 others from the Champ with Prem ambitions? That would fit in with the plan for the A League expansion as it would make the LV games more meaningful while offering a respite from the league.It would also deal with the player respite issue as International weekends could pretty much be left free. There would be a loss of 4 'league' matches but a higher quality LV cup would boost attendances more than it does now!

1 up, 1 down in the top two divisions & then a home & away play off for the bottom of 'Prem 2' and the league below, subject to the team finishing top of the league below being prepared to come up.

Failing that, I agree with JP's idea but I don't think they'll go for that as it means more Prem games which the players won't agree to.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 15:54
Quote:
ROLLO
WS can you imagine what our gates would be like playing LI, Bristol. Pirates, Ealing, Bedford, Nottingham, Doncaster and London Scottish & Leeds? We would be lucky to average 5K so where would the loss of revenue be made up from, not to mention the loss of supporters ? I for one am not prepared to sacrifice Worcester Warriors for some nobler notion of the good of professional rugby which is what I think you are suggesting?

Would it be 5k? Think probably more like 6/7 and if we were in the top league more like 8/9.

Yes i am suggesting the domestic game in this country needs improving - im not just looking at this with my Worcester specs on. A drop into the second tier would be bad but it wouldnt be a disaster, however it would transform the likes of ealing, bedford etc as they would get proper funding.

Of course, as said above, bring the Welsh regions into play and you really do have two very good tiers. Maybe a prem of 10 teams and a 'champ' of 12.

In football relegation from the prem isn't a complete disaster for fans. That's what we need to generate in rugby. Currently its a disaster as the drop in standards/stadia/facilities etc is so Noticeable. The scheme as proposed in the guardian seeks to bridge this gap and help our teams lower down the pyramid. Bring welsh teams into play and you have a great couple of leagues IMO

 
gmem
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Garym (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 16:25
Quote:
WorcesterSauce

Yes i am suggesting the domestic game in this country needs improving - im not just looking at this with my Worcester specs on. A drop into the second tier would be bad but it wouldnt be a disaster, however it would transform the likes of ealing, bedford etc as they would get proper funding.


Does all depend on equitable funding and from what i have seen so far are we suggesting that say, Bedford, would get the same funding as Saracens? I can't see that happening in a amiilion years, ditto where are the crowds going to come from, again are we saying that Nottibngham are going go from two men and a dog watching on a cricket pitch to becoming sustainable at that level - again never in a million years (or at least my lifetime)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
Fiver (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 16:30
The way I see it, there are 14 teams who can afford prem rugby. The others are miles behind. As such, any notion of shrinking the prem is utter madness. A two tier prem is just a smaller prem and smaller championship.

The only real option is to go to a 14 team prem and reduce games from elsewhere. That elsewhere might as well be the LV and use the A league instead (which the LV effectively is anyway). Bring the Welsh regions into the A league if that suits. You could easily do a North/South A league in that case.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 18:18
Quote:
Garym
Quote:
WorcesterSauce

Yes i am suggesting the domestic game in this country needs improving - im not just looking at this with my Worcester specs on. A drop into the second tier would be bad but it wouldnt be a disaster, however it would transform the likes of ealing, bedford etc as they would get proper funding.


Does all depend on equitable funding and from what i have seen so far are we suggesting that say, Bedford, would get the same funding as Saracens? I can't see that happening in a amiilion years, ditto where are the crowds going to come from, again are we saying that Nottibngham are going go from two men and a dog watching on a cricket pitch to becoming sustainable at that level - again never in a million years (or at least my lifetime)

The proposal as put forward by the guardian barely goes into the funding side of things but it does touch upon fair funding. I doubt that means bedford would get the same funding as saracens but we can only speculate.

Nottingham won't go from 900 to 9,000 over night, no, but they would probably go from 900 to 2000+ with proper funding, proper exposure and playing in a decent standard league with a few more away fans coming through the door. In the long term, who knows how many they'd get. If they could build a successful side then the crowds would grow too. It wouldnt be a 1/2 season thing but a 10/15/20 year project.

The alternative of course is to shut up shop/continue as we are and continue with the status quo and steadily grow the gap between the rich and the poor even more....

 
worcestawarrior
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
worcestawarrior (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 20:18
The set up as it is isn't perfect but we are competing well on the European and international scene, with the existing funding provided wherever that comes from. Radical changes could easily disrupt what has already been achieved. Leicester have already intimated that they don't want a reduced income by virtue of increasing the amount of funded clubs and their probably the most financially stable club mainly due to their assets and fan base.

Any change will hard fought for.

 
kiddykid
Re: Ringfencing - Seemingly back on the Agenda
kiddykid (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 15:42
Having the Pro 14 all around us might be a factor in some thinking, I.e. Having leagues of the same size lends itself to future competitions, etc ? Just a thought.


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