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dudleywarrior88
Progress and our future
dudleywarrior88 (IP Logged)
02 February, 2018 22:15
If you look at the progression of us over the last 10 years we have gone no where. Same relegation slog where we win a few games a season against second string teams or the club which is having a bad season like london irish. To do this we throw millions of £s to sign a few internationals and injuryed players like spencer who we get fit then they leave.

This week I have been so proud to see Adams get the step up to wales, a player we have brought through. It got me thinking. Worcesters actual success is the ability to find talent and bring it through. So rather than spend millions and putting the future of the club at risk lets invest in the youth team and if that means we step back from the premiership then so be it. At least we protect the future of the club rather chase an impossible dream.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Fiver (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 07:36
I think Sarries did it the right way, Exeter also, but they had a set of circumstances that allowed it which cannot be forced.

Yes, I'd definitely use the academy to produce talent, however they have a habit of getting trained up and leaving as well. In the short term, you kind of need to buy in a team to get a solid foundation in the league. Going to a country that pays lower wages, and signing players on 3-5 year deals means they don't get pinched by bigger clubs once they've settled into the league (not that I'm thinking of Mike Williams, Chris Vui.....).

I think the key really is to stop messing around with the short term, Mickey Mouse contracts that we always use. If a player is good enough, keep him with a long contract. If he wants to go, it funds the next bit of recruitment at least.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
knightstemplar (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 08:51
An owner with a long term plan and investment in a deep enough squad to survive is the only way to stop our perpetual circle.

DR had a plan with academy as above but he never implimented it and our owners want out.

So we have gone nowhere from then and we still dangle at the bottom just doing enough to survive.

Next year will be very different with Bristol so without recruitment and investment it will be the drop on current goings on and off the field.

Perhaps Cecil has accepted it will be back to the championship and rebuild for the 20/21 seaon in the rescue plan if a buyer isnt found by the end of the season?

Very uncertain times and this perpetual survival circle does wear thin.

 
jgmorgan100
Re: Progress and our future
The Mailman (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 10:23
I think one mistake weíve made is not throwing ££££££s at a big name DOR. Someone who can attract and retain good players. If money was going to be invested anywhere it should have been there - a name to put Worcester on the map. Pay well over the odds if you have to as this is by far the single most important part of a club ... the face of the club if you like.

Instead weíve gone for Solomons (who simply wasnít what was required at all imho) on the back of a couple of good results which probably occurred simply because we had Houggard / Lance working in tandem for the first time. I thought it was a very unfortunate appointment that was likely to take us precisely nowhere. It kind of revealed how hamstrung the club is due to the ownership uncertainty.

In terms of a big name DOR, I hate to say it but Dean Ryan was the closest weíve had. At least he was well respected / high profile in the broader rugby world and someone people took notice of.

Iím afraid I think our current future is extremely bleak. Owners who want out and a lightweight DOR. Recruitment is going to be impossible. And ultimately players are what determines results :-(



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2018 10:25 by The Mailman.

 
usa warrior
Re: Progress and our future
usa warrior (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 11:53
From everything I hear Solomons is very well liked and respected by players and staff alike. Those arenít just sound bites that are being rolled out.

He is expected to see out his term so long as the status quo is maintained in terms of ownership, etc.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 13:42
If we step back from the Prem we will not be developing premier level youngsters, they will not be playing at the highest level they need to test themselves and develop.

We have to be in the Prem

How many youngsters get developed by Bedford, Pirates, Doncaster or Nottingham.

JP

 
Offa
Re: Progress and our future
Offa (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 13:59
I think the most important part of the jigsaw by a long way is ownership. We absolutely have to get the next bit right. Everything else stems from this. Everything until this point is a holding job.

 
jgmorgan100
Re: Progress and our future
The Mailman (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 18:11
Quote:
usa warrior
From everything I hear Solomons is very well liked and respected by players and staff alike. Those arenít just sound bites that are being rolled out.
He is expected to see out his term so long as the status quo is maintained in terms of ownership, etc.

Fully accept that heís well liked. But thatís not enough IMHO for the club to take the next step. I can understand why he got the job in the circumstances, and obviously I hope he does very well, but heís not the kind of appointment thatís going to change perceptions of Worcester from the outside.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 22:57
The only thing that will change perceptions of Worcester is success on the pitch.

Fleeting blips of interest caused by things like the Josh Adams story wonít hold the attention of those outside the camp for very long.

New ownership will be of interest for 2 editions of TRP, likewise the new DoR, whoever, whenever.

The market is disinterested in losers other than a quick gloat at relegation time.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 08:25
You have to ask the question, ďwhy would a man as experienced and well qualified commit to a club that may be financially insecure?Ē

What does he know?

Heís old and near retirement?

Heís getting a big pension pot?

The club is more secure than we think?

JP

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
knightstemplar (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 09:22
Im surprised anyone was appointed long term except for security reasons.

I still think a serious buyer with serious rugby connections would want to choose their own man/men at the helm.

It would be another contract to discharge and compensate on.

That isnt offering a judgement on current personnel.

 
kiddykid
Re: Progress and our future
kiddykid (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 11:16
Mailman, I agree. I am firmly of the opinion that DR was the best we have had and I would have him back tomorrow. A big name with a good track record and one who commanded respect.

Getting the best out of players is a great skill and you need to be a good communicator. Alan Solomons is 71 so he is old enough to be the grandfather of many of the squad who he is trying to coach and enthuse. Do you think that this is going to work? I hope it is.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 12:09
Well maybe his record does not stand up to scrutiny

http://www.sixwaysrugby.co.uk/Images/2017-18/Stats/DoRstats44games.jpg


After 44 League games in charge. Hogg, Gold and Solomons have not completed 44 Games yet


JP

 
Offa
Re: Progress and our future
Offa (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 16:26
We have been here many times before. For the record I believe that DR could talk the talk........................... the walking was not of the same quality.

Our future is in the hands of our next owner. I hope that this will not be someone with football as a priority.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Fiver (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 08:21
I think DR's reign showed how long it takes to rebuild a team. When he took over the team was of poor quality and disjointed. We probably had the players to stay up, but I never felt they were all playing for the team. It's only takes one or two to upset the game plan.

We then had a year in the Championship which, for me, proved that there is no such thing as going down and resetting everything. You just have a year of poor quality rugby, coupled with poor recruitment. Luckily the stupid play-offs are gone.

The following year was trying to compete in the premiership with a low quality side due to the above. Since DR left we've been struggling due to poor decisions made by the board. Had they just left DR in charge of all things rugby we'd probably be a mid table team by now.

Now that we know the rules, Priestland would have cost us a year's salary to prise away from Bath. DR would have known his salary cap level, which is why I don't understand why the board chose to block it, and then effectively demote DR by putting Jim in as his boss.

Is Solomons the answer? I guess it depends on what question he has been tasked with. I'm sure we'll find out a lot more over the next couple of months when we find out who else is leaving, and who, if anyone, we've signed.

 
Patgadd
Re: Progress and our future
Patgadd (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 09:40
Fiver, I wish there were an emoji,or whatever they're called, for hitting the nail on the head.

 
A38
Re: Progress and our future
A38 (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 10:29
I find it very difficult to judge decisions made in the past without understanding the factors which led to those decisions.

Whilst we can now point to one decision - the "duovirate" - which didn't work out well this was corrected relatively quickly by the appointment of Gold. I must admit that I for one accepted the logic of the "duovirate" at the time especially given the timing and short notice of Ryan's departure and I can appreciate why it was tried.

The Priestland story seems now to be accepted as fact, I don't believe that it has been denied by the club and certainly O'Toole / Bolsover are on record as saying that one DR recommended "buy" - and only one - was turned down on cost grounds. The subsequent clamour for a 10 might well be seen by some as justifying the criticism for that decision but without knowing the full facts it is difficult to make a judgement. So we are back to that old clichť about hindsight.

As to the other decisions made "by the board" over the years, the first point I would make is to ask who is "the board"? Over the years the personalities have changed. There are those who criticise the removal of Brain and the appointment of Ruddock and those who complain about the "duovirate". But whilst both were (presumably ) board decisions the make up of the board will have changed.

Latterly there does not seem to be any doubt as to who is the decision maker. It is he who controls the cheque book because it is his (family's?) money. And that's the ultimate point. We are merely bystanders when it comes to it. If there is somebody with a) the money and b) the ambition Worcester may well stabilise itself as a mid table team. - some day. But without both, it won't.

 
Patgadd
Re: Progress and our future
Patgadd (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 10:38
Quote:
A38

Whilst we can now point to one decision - the "duovirate" - which didn't work out well this was corrected relatively quickly by the appointment of Gold.

For a nanosecond there, I misread that last word, omitting the letter "l". Intervention at the highest level might be just what we need!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
knightstemplar (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 11:04
As discussed several times it's a very rich mans hobby owning a Premiership Rugby Club it's without doubt not an easy money making machine so you can understand the Allen logic in off loading it ASAP!

One problem is that it must be very common knowledge in the premiership rugby world with DOR's and players exactly what the position is with Warriors. We need a 3,5 years plus rugby plan and some very serious, educated investment in playing staff to have a strong enough squad to be at least mid table and potentially survive next season. Who exactly new would come into play? Who would want to be the DOR when owners is unclear and what their exact plan would be when a buyer is found? (If one is!)

What has happened has gone for good or bad. It could be suggested on a future premiership level we are in the most uncertain times as we ever have been.

The ultimate rescue plan as referred to by Cecil, himself, has to be his local consortium to keep his own original dream alive with any sense of security.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 11:14
Just finished my 4 miler this morning and also had a play around with the workbook to include all DoR's not just the ones who have completed the filtered number of prem games.

If the DoR has not completed the said number of games it looks at his overall average for the number of games he has completed. Phew, (boring)

It does change the table slightly

http://www.sixwaysrugby.co.uk/Images/2017-18/Stats/DoRstats44gamesB.jpg

Hogg did not do to well.


It is no excuse saying he did not have the best players. Would your appraisal be altered because one of your fellow managers had better technicians than you?

It is a results based business the whys and wherefores do not come into it, the results are what matters. Shame - maybe, tough - definitely, but thats the business they are in.

JP

 
Southstand(again)
Re: Progress and our future
Southstand(again) (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 11:19
I think the main failures I have witnessed in watching Wuss since we turned pro have been the result of non-Rugby people making Rugby decisions. Cecil probably started this off but he had plenty to keep him company.

As for the Rose-tinted memories some may have had of John Brain (bless him) he was very much a "one-trick pony" once Andy Keast departed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2018 11:21 by Southstand(again).

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 11:21
I agree SS, the pairing of Keast and Brain was the best we have ever had.

JP

 
FlipFlop
Re: Progress and our future
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 12:59
SSA,

At least Brain had a pony, even if he could only do one trick.

Many of the 'ponies' since, are glue or pet food, awaiting the next one through the revolving door of Sixways as we look fro another quick fix.

 
Sutton Warrior
Re: Progress and our future
Sutton Warrior (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 13:23
Interesting stats - having watched many of the brain/Keast games some of it was very very dull old school forward oriented slog. we did however win quite often.I am interested to know which people and at what level are assumed/deemed to have taken rugby related decisions who were not "rugby people"? Who did they recruit, coach or select?

 
Villages12
Re: Progress and our future
Villages12 (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 16:41
Whilst interesting, is it really possible to compare the results of different coaches ?

Different players each year, different coaches, different weather, artificial pitch etc etc

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 17:17
We need to grow some ba11s here.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

It matters not what players you have good, bad or indifferent. It is up to the manager and coaches to get the best out of the players they have got.

If you are saying that is what the coaches all did then you are blaming the players for not being good enough.

The DoR/Head Coach has that responsibility and thatís why he gets a damn big salary.

We donít need to look for reasons why, hr did not get the results his players were capable of.

JP

 
Villages12
Re: Progress and our future
Villages12 (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 18:05
JP. I don't know whether your remarks are aimed at what I said or not.

But if they were, you totally misread what I was saying.

However, your statement that............


( We donít need to look for reasons why, hr did not get the results his players were capable of.)

Do you have some special to know that ?

It doesn't matter what players we have "good, bad or indifferent" ?? Are you serious ?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 20:37
Yes!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Fiver (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 09:51
I'd look at the structures in place at successful clubs and learn from them.

Leicester did well with Cockers at the helm, they then brought in another big character in a more senior position than they had and it went wrong. Exeter have one big character, and it works. Sarries have Mark McColl, we occasionally hear from Sanderson, but Mark is the boss. Humphreys wasn't a big enough character, so they brought in Ackerman and that partnership appears to work.

I don't see Solomons as a big character. I've barely seen anything of him, as such I think we need that big front man, I hope Duncan is that guy (if rumours are to be believed). DR was our big character before he left, unfortunately we didn't get to see what might have been. As such, Hogg wasn't the guy we needed to lead us, if he was then it wouldn't have worked with him and DR.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 16:10
A list of players grouped under their respective DoR, shows the quality and numbers DoR's had to play with.

Link at the bottom to a larger version

http://www.sixwaysrugby.co.uk/Images/2017-18/Stats/DoRPlayers.jpg


Full Size Version

Enjoy, be interesting on people's thoughts.

JP

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
knightstemplar (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 16:15
Ruddock had the known Internationals.

 
neiljk
Re: Progress and our future
neiljk (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 17:15
I donít remember the day we smashed Wasps being dull under Brain and Keast. I do however remember the first season of DR where he admitted defeat early, played down expectations and then doing even worse than that.

Our first promotion season was a heady time where with a lot less resources we achieved a whole lot more. Only Gold for me remotely compares.

 
A38
Re: Progress and our future
A38 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 17:42
Sorry to be extremely picky but didn't Collier play in the Brain era?

That said a very interesting history of the club through the many players who have represented it / us.

Thank you for compiling the data.

 
w4rriorz1980
Re: Progress and our future
w4rriorz1980 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 18:22
Wow.Some names on there.Memory lane.
Ezra Taylor.Didn't play!

Thanks JP.had fun reading some old names.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 18:56
He did A38, got him in my master list - 2 seasons. Lost when transferring names will sort later.

Any other names I missed please highlight.

JP

 
MacWarrior
Re: Progress and our future
MacWarrior (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 20:15
JP

A couple I can't see, Thomas Lombard & our old friend LeRoux !!

 
usa warrior
Re: Progress and our future
usa warrior (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 20:22
Quote:
w4rriorz1980
Wow.Some names on there.Memory lane.
Ezra Taylor.Didn't play!

Thanks JP.had fun reading some old names.

Oh yes he did! Two minutes away at Wasps. I was there. 3-6 win.

 
w4rriorz1980
Re: Progress and our future
w4rriorz1980 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 22:59
Quote:
usa warrior
Quote:
w4rriorz1980
Wow.Some names on there.Memory lane.
Ezra Taylor.Didn't play!

Thanks JP.had fun reading some old names.

Oh yes he did! Two minutes away at Wasps. I was there. 3-6 win.
Ah yes,I stand corrected!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 09:14
Quote:
MacWarrior
JP
A couple I can't see, Thomas Lombard & our old friend LeRoux !!

I still have a few items of Thomasí s training kit he gave me when he left.

They wouldnít fit him now!

 
GrubberKk
Re: Progress and our future
GrubberKk (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 11:23
I think Dean Richards is a very good case to look at. He spent several seasons going no where with Newcastle. The fans forum was full of posters wanting him out of the club not so long ago (within the last 12-18 months).

Then its clicked. Some big signings in there. Some great talent coming through. Indeed Newcastle has never been short of academy products coming through.

Newcastle and Worcester, in my eyes, are very similar. In the professional era, both clubs that have got where they are on the back of heavy investment (Hall/Duckworth). They've got to a certain level and it has petered out some what. Newcastle struggle from a geographical point of view - and although Gosforth before was an established club, the fan base was small. Worcester have developed from a small club side into a top level club and worked hard on establishing a good fan base (I think it is very good considering 15/20 years ago the 1st team were playing on what is now the car park, in front of a couple of hundred supporters).

To me, as I've stated lots of times before, Worcesters future lies in local talent. The academy is key here. There's a lot of good rugby schools locally and colleges.

To me, Worcester has more potential than Newcastle. A more populated area. Hasn't got a huge Premiership football club on it's doorstep to compete against.

Someone, somewhere along the line has got to be brave. Someone has to say 'this is Worcester, this is what we are'. Because, to me, I'm not sure Worcester have an identity. A bit like London Irish in many ways.

Duckworth did a fantastic job of taking the club from relatively nothing, to one of the countries top 12 club sides. Laid on fantastic training facilities, ahead of its time when launched, and a great ground. However, as said originally in this thread, over the past 10 years what actually has been achieved?

Newcastle have generally lost their good young players to more centrally located teams - a lot down to Leicester amongst others, where players believe they the can enhance their international credentials (Newcastle barely gets a look in). Well, to me Worcester can take things by the scruff of the neck, say we base ourselves around our academy, and young players will be given a chance. If enough are introduced, they will hopefully want to stick together as a team and build upon it (maybe fantasy to think that..but...).

It's a difficult balance. Do you want to yoyo about the bottom of the Prem/Top of champ on a continual basis, bringing 'experienced' players on high wages to try and stave off the threat of relegation. Or do you want a positive, vibrant club engaging with the county, giving the club an identity, and building for the future. (Which introduces the whole arguement about ring fencing).

What this really requires is owners who are prepared to say 'right, this is what we are doing - stick with us. Our priority is not finishing 11th or higher in the Prem, it's developing a Worcester club with some of the brightest young talent in the country, of which most are from the county' (The club has several very highly rated youngsters currently coming through).

Sadly...I think the mindset of the club, and supporters, is very much set in the 'fight against relegation' mode.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Progress and our future
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 12:42
Can't argue with much of what you say there GrubberKk.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 12:46
I have updated the DoR Players list to include Tim and Nicholas, I have also added

Stephen Sparks
Emilio Bergamashci
Mike Macdonald
Thomas Lombard
Brad Macleod-Henderson

Some names to conjure up there.

JP

 
yellow450
Re: Progress and our future
Yeller (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 13:29
GrubberKk is spot on. I could never have conjured up the detail he provides, but would certainly buy in if that was the clear culture being aimed for.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 19:54
I think there is another similarity with Newcastle that is very relevant.

Like Worcester, we had an investor who took the club up a gear in a very short space of time. Like Worcester we had a lot of money spent on a fancy new ground. Too much was spent on the ground, not just in terms of money, but in terms of the focus of the business too. Ultimately we were left in a financial mess, lost the ground anyway, and still with debts, so the playing budget suffered. Thankfully we now have a new investor who has a very clear focus of where the club should be heading, ground developments now follow the needs of the club, not the egos of those in charge. We have been able to buy back the ground, in little but sensible steps we are moving forward again.

Sixways is a superb ground, but as an outsider I do get the impression that the hearts of those in charge seemed more concerned with the big shiny temple visible from the M5, than the progress on the pitch. It leaves your current & future owners lumbered with an asset that vastly outweighs the club financially, making it very hard to tempt a passionate Worcester supporter to take on the challenge.

If you could separate the club from the stadium & land (that awful term real estate sums it up) and become tenants, with some sort of long term agreement to be able to buy back just the bits you need in the future, I think it much more likely that Mr Right would come forward. At the moment, the prospect of taking on the unknowns of a £25m or whatever it is property speculation is enough to put off the sort of person who is only interested in making Worcester Warriors great.

Best of luck folks. Looking forward to my first trip to Sixways for a few years shortly, & hopefully a better quality game than usually seems to happen when our two teams meet.
(Sm128)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Abberley (IP Logged)
08 February, 2018 22:32
Quote:
GrubberKk

...considering 15/20 years ago the 1st team were playing on what is now the car park, in front of a couple of hundred supporters.


Last game on the 1st Team Pitch - April 14th 2007

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jKYkL1cJWKwuQJBl81Nnr4gIHuzn7wJb4SKgFMGXI3Iv4jsa-5syDh_pQuvl-GN6j0A4bGv-esRsB4GRVg=w400-h677-no

 
GrubberKk
Re: Progress and our future
GrubberKk (IP Logged)
09 February, 2018 09:03
Was it genuinely as recent as that? Wow.

 
Southstand(again)
Re: Progress and our future
Southstand(again) (IP Logged)
09 February, 2018 09:20
I certainly don't miss all those sparks that flew when the ball hit the overhead cables !

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Progress and our future
Abberley (IP Logged)
09 February, 2018 22:21
Quote:
GrubberKk
Was it genuinely as recent as that? Wow.

That was the last Wanderers 1st XV game before the pitch was upgraded to Park-and-ride.

The Warriors were by then established on the pitch beside the old Clubhouse. The original East Stand can be seen here beyond the old stand.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hUE7-umogMmfiVxpPnNzuz5pn5h4tbjxI0nFmhiFpeiesaNVIMhUsu0j7IHl7mMUjYNe9Zi51HNj0-S26NaAdStMoQ9im4uKnciXEsKWLr8O6ckCwV6SHe_ApcUojx9dMWWpUq6KxoA=w400-h677-no


A few more pix from the last game can be viewed here:


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