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MESSAGES->author
Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 17:15

 
BrumBrum
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
BrumBrum (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 17:43
RFU will come down hard on this, if it can be proven.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 18:32
3 weeks for Bastetaud in the article example, so what is coming down hard supposed to suggest. Clearly Shillcock’s Head was turned enough to discuss with Sir which infers some lack of focus on his game. Presumably the alleged comments were directed at him.

I’ll suggest that for the alleged person responsible for the slurs, that it will be suggested that such comments are normal colloquialisms in his homeland. Whatever, it did the trick with at least one of our team on the day and the RFU are not going to deduct the points from Sale if the case is proven. A brush and a carpet with room underneath will be the
likely outcome imo. Wrong, but likely.

 
Flumpty
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 19:09
Quote:
FlipFlop
3 weeks for Bastetaud in the article example, so what is coming down hard supposed to suggest. Clearly Shillcock’s Head was turned enough to discuss with Sir which infers some lack of focus on his game. Presumably the alleged comments were directed at him.
I’ll suggest that for the alleged person responsible for the slurs, that it will be suggested that such comments are normal colloquialisms in his homeland. Whatever, it did the trick with at least one of our team on the day and the RFU are not going to deduct the points from Sale if the case is proven. A brush and a carpet with room underneath will be the
likely outcome imo
. Wrong, but likely.

I disagree with you. If the player who said the things can be identified and what he said corroborated, that person is going to be sat in a deep portion of muck, entirely of his own making.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 19:11
Given the moral high horse given by the English press over the Basteraud incident I don't see how it can be brushed under the carpet, if indeed the incident is proved. I don't know what was said, and if the referee could have had the TMO prove it at the time. If the referee had heard it would the sanction be a red card?

 
centrethere
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
centrethere (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 20:40
Unfortunately, even with sanctions (unless the game is re-played) it won't help us. Pity the ref and video team couldn't pick it up

 
Halanisupporter
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Halanisupporter (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 22:02
That’s completely racist. “ in your homeland “. You’re as bad as your player for coming out with that one. This alledged slur isn’t the reason you lost today. You were already considerably down in the 58th minute. You lost because your team spend more time picking arguments and fights, than they do playing rugby.

 
Eco Warrior
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Eco Warrior (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 22:04
Centrethere. Who do you mean by "us"? Worcester supporters or those who desire a more tolerant society.

I think Joe Marler might have few words to say on this debate and it's likely outcome.

 
Tony Warrior
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Tony Warrior (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 22:48
Think the best thing to do is wait for the citing officer to do his/her bit. Already getting comments taken out of context which helps no one.
And for the record we know our teams failings, don't need holier than thou opponents supporters pointing it out thanks.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 22:58
Halanisupporter,

“Homeland” racist? Really?

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
25 March, 2018 03:07
Quote:
Halanisupporter
That’s completely racist. “ in your homeland “. You’re as bad as your player for coming out with that one. This alledged slur isn’t the reason you lost today. You were already considerably down in the 58th minute. You lost because your team spend more time picking arguments and fights, than they do playing rugby.

One of the most bizarre posts ive ever read. Get a grip, that is not racist. Also, Noone was suggesting that's why we lost but well done on the win. You seemingly have someone in your team who has alledgedly used a homophobic slur. Lets see how this plays out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/03/2018 10:11 by WorcesterSauce.

 
Sixways Cheryl
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Sixways Cheryl (IP Logged)
25 March, 2018 16:24
He has a rap sheet as long as my arm already & he's still only 24. When is he going to learn & sort himself out? Obviously deserves a lengthy ban if proven guilty, not that it helps us at all.

 
ulsterlad
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
ulsterlad (IP Logged)
25 March, 2018 23:43
There is no place in any sport for homophobic remarks and if any player (or fan) has made any I would want them away from RU for a long time.!

The facts in this case so far are:

Shillcock has made a few claims that a Sale player made homophobic slurs.

The ref. Mic only picked up the accusations from Shillcock
The ref states he did not hear anything
Player with a name claims homophobic abuse
Fans blame a 50:point score line on one comment.

It really is pretty pathetic! If anyone on that pitch made homophobic remarks I hope they are banned for months, if anyone tries to make an an issue of a comment to get some one banned I hope they are dealing!t with too..

What really annoys me as a gay Rugby fan is this thread! Not one person says they heard any comment! Just alot of maybe this and the other.

Did anyone actually hear what people are saying happened?

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
26 March, 2018 01:22
Quote:
ulsterlad
There is no place in any sport for homophobic remarks and if any player (or fan) has made any I would want them away from RU for a long time.!
The facts in this case so far are:

Shillcock has made a few claims that a Sale player made homophobic slurs.

The ref. Mic only picked up the accusations from Shillcock
The ref states he did not hear anything
Player with a name claims homophobic abuse
Fans blame a 50:point score line on one comment.

It really is pretty pathetic! If anyone on that pitch made homophobic remarks I hope they are banned for months, if anyone tries to make an an issue of a comment to get some one banned I hope they are dealing!t with too..

What really annoys me as a gay Rugby fan is this thread! Not one person says they heard any comment! Just alot of maybe this and the other.

Did anyone actually hear what people are saying happened?

No fans have blamed a 50 point scoreline on one comment (except you and a Sale fan), so that's not actually a fact.

It's not pathetic and I don't understand how this thread is annoying you. It seems fundamentally contradictory to say that on the one hand there is no place in rugby for homophobic remarks by any player or fan and that anyone who makes such remarks should be banned for months, whilst on the other saying discussion of an allegation is pathetic and annoying.

As for anyone actually hearing what people are saying what happened, that would be Jamie Shillcock and any other player within earshot, if said remarks were uttered.

At the moment we have a press report of a conversation between a Worcester player and a referee, picked up by anyone who had access to a ref mike device, in which an allegation of unnacceptable behaviour was made. That seems to me to be a pretty legitimate topic of conversation.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
27 March, 2018 05:32
RFU investigating, but on the basis of the latest WEN, I cannot see action being taken. Ref didn’t hear it, TJ said nothing, lip readers may be called to watch footage. All seems to suggest Jamie had voices in his head at present.

[www.worcesternews.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/03/2018 11:26 by FlipFlop.

 
yellow450
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Yeller (IP Logged)
27 March, 2018 08:44
I can't help thinking about these sketches whenever slurs are reported..


[www.youtube.com]

 
ulsterlad
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
ulsterlad (IP Logged)
28 March, 2018 01:00
So it appears claims made by a player alleging homophobic abuse have no evidence apart from him being annoyed and having a surname which many comments coukd be misconstrued.

A player having a bad game makes accusations which cannot be proven, indeed nothing (apart from his claims) indicate it to be true.

A homophobic issue hits RU, because a player says so (despite the ref, the ref mic) not picking up anything?

A whole thread on a RU forum is about the issue.

So tell me, who is bringing the game into disrepute?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread the ONLY accusation is from Shillcock. It is only his complaint that was picked up on the ref Mike, it is ONLY his complaint that the TV team picked up on and suddenly this forum has made a whole ncident out of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/03/2018 01:07 by ulsterlad.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
28 March, 2018 07:06
I'd be extremely saddened if I learnt that players were deciding to make false allegations in order to win/influence matches. We've already seen some "simulation" in a handful of games (Nigel telling off Hogg in the world cup was a classic), I just hope there is no escalation.

Innocent until proven guilty, no doubt. With any luck there will be a pitch mike that picked up whatever the comment was, best outcome is a misunderstanding. The game is gone for us so I doubt anyone is hoping for the worst.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
28 March, 2018 07:50
Quote:
ulsterlad
So it appears claims made by a player alleging homophobic abuse have no evidence apart from him being annoyed and having a surname which many comments coukd be misconstrued.
A player having a bad game makes accusations which cannot be proven, indeed nothing (apart from his claims) indicate it to be true.

A homophobic issue hits RU, because a player says so (despite the ref, the ref mic) not picking up anything?

A whole thread on a RU forum is about the issue.

So tell me, who is bringing the game into disrepute?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread the ONLY accusation is from Shillcock. It is only his complaint that was picked up on the ref Mike, it is ONLY his complaint that the TV team picked up on and suddenly this forum has made a whole ncident out of it.

I understand your thinking ulsterlad, but let’s keep it in scale.

Firstly, we know the lad, those of us who follow academy and A league games will have met him, and chatted to him, and find him a decent bloke. The idea that for some reason he’s made this up, and it didn’t happen, is something I find distasteful and insulting.

Secondly, a discussion on here is not quite like writing to The Times or raising it at Prime Minister’s Question Time is it? Total readership? A couple of hundred?

No, it’s a legitimate issue to be discussed here, and to say it brings the game into disrepute is just plain wrong, and devalues your other relevant points.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
28 March, 2018 13:19
Quote:
ulsterlad
So it appears claims made by a player alleging homophobic abuse have no evidence apart from him being annoyed and having a surname which many comments coukd be misconstrued.
A player having a bad game makes accusations which cannot be proven, indeed nothing (apart from his claims) indicate it to be true.

A homophobic issue hits RU, because a player says so (despite the ref, the ref mic) not picking up anything?

A whole thread on a RU forum is about the issue.

So tell me, who is bringing the game into disrepute?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread the ONLY accusation is from Shillcock. It is only his complaint that was picked up on the ref Mike, it is ONLY his complaint that the TV team picked up on and suddenly this forum has made a whole ncident out of it.

I guess it depends where you stand on the issue of taking accusations seriously until evidence is taken into account. Could you not argue it is a 'whole issue' until the relevant authorities decide it is not so?

 
ulsterlad
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
ulsterlad (IP Logged)
30 March, 2018 05:55
[quote TVM Rides Again][quote ulsterlad]So it appears claims made by a player alleging homophobic abuse have no evidence apart from him being annoyed and having a surname which many comments coukd be misconstrued.

A player having a bad game makes accusations which cannot be proven, indeed nothing (apart from his claims) indicate it to be true.

A homophobic issue hits RU, because a player says so (despite the ref, the ref mic) not picking up anything?

A whole thread on a RU forum is about the issue.

So tell me, who is bringing the game into disrepute?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread the ONLY accusation is from Shillcock. It is


only his complaint that was picked up on the ref Mike, it is ONLY his complaint that the TV team picked up on and suddenly this forum has made a whole ncident out of it.[/quote]

I guess it depends where you stand on the issue of taking accusations seriously until evidence is taken into account. Could you not argue it is a 'whole issue' until the relevant authorities decide it is not so?[/quote

I have always said if the allegation is proven them he should be banned for a long time.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
30 March, 2018 06:27
I don't think there needs to be an overreaction, Basteraeu got a three game ban I think. Probably about right. Would finish Solomana's season but allow him to go on tour with England if selected.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
02 April, 2018 14:43
Quote:
ulsterlad
So it appears claims made by a player alleging homophobic abuse have no evidence apart from him being annoyed and having a surname which many comments coukd be misconstrued.
A player having a bad game makes accusations which cannot be proven, indeed nothing (apart from his claims) indicate it to be true.

A homophobic issue hits RU, because a player says so (despite the ref, the ref mic) not picking up anything?

A whole thread on a RU forum is about the issue.

So tell me, who is bringing the game into disrepute?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread the ONLY accusation is from Shillcock. It is only his complaint that was picked up on the ref Mike, it is ONLY his complaint that the TV team picked up on and suddenly this forum has made a whole ncident out of it.

From what I can see the only one bringing anything into disrepute at the moment is you.

How do you know the accusation cannot be proven? That's for a disciplinary panel to decide. The day we let someone like you decide what can and cannot be investigated is the day we should all give up and go home.

As others have pointed out, this thread is discussing a press report on a rugby website, which seems a completely legitimate topic of conversation for a rugby forum.

If you haven't got anything useful or relevant to contribute (and I haven't read anything yet) please just stick to your own board and let the adults have a sensible discussion in peace.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
usa warrior
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
usa warrior (IP Logged)
05 April, 2018 22:50
Solomona suspended for 4 weeks. Clearly something found but the following was stated from the report...

“It’s worth noting that there is no mention of “homophobic language” in the panel verdict.

“The panel found that the player used language that was verbally abusive on more than one occasion in quick succession.””



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2018 22:55 by usa warrior.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
05 April, 2018 22:58
The ruling in full.

[www.englandrugby.com]

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 00:53
The written judgment will be interesting to see, to find out what words were alleged, denied and found to have been used.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 05:48
Interesting to note the mitigation for reducing the ban as “ recent good record” and “ conduct st the hearing”. Presumably the conduct is at club level as being sent home from England camp is not so great and i’d besurprised if any player under charge would act anything other than pious, no matter the charge or element of guilt, just as most would if in a criminal court. That element bottled a bit by RFU IMO but it wasn’t swept under the carpet as an incident, even if they have decided on the face of it to avoid the H word in their judgement.

 
Old 7
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Old 7 (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 07:00
If the charge was denied but the panel found him guilty, then logic dictates they believed he was lieing. How do you mitigate that? I thought mitigation was applied after admittance and demonstrated remorse, not denial and lieing.

 
Eastrrr Bunny
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Eastrrr Bunny (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 07:18
If he didn't accept the charge then the length should have been increased.

 
Whispering_Death
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Whispering_Death (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 07:20
I just can’t believe Shillcock didn’t make it up. We all know if it wasn’t for those slurs we would have won too.

 
centrethere
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
centrethere (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 07:50
Quote:
Whispering_Death
I just can’t believe Shillcock didn’t make it up. We all know if it wasn’t for those slurs we would have won too.

WD struggle to understand your double negative - not sure it is what you mean.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 07:54
"However, the Panel accepted that they were said in the heat of the moment rather than premeditated."

Interesting to know how they came to that conclusion. Chris01 seems to suggest it may have been to do with how Shillcock cleared Solomana out in a ruck in an earlier thread. Even if he did,is your first comment to the alleged offender a homophobic comment rather than a general vernacular if there is no underlying character trait that leans someone to using such terms or having such views, in a more day to day manner?.

The ruling does not use homophobic in the judgement. Were they trying to stay clear of a row on terminology, or just ensuring they could fit whatever was said into their rules?

Anyway, judgement carried. Jamie can expect a warm welcome when we play Sale next time if the general view is it was much ado about nothing.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 08:18
Quote:
Old 7
If the charge was denied but the panel found him guilty, then logic dictates they believed he was lieing. How do you mitigate that? I thought mitigation was applied after admittance and demonstrated remorse, not denial and lieing.

We will have to wait for the written judgment to find out the exact circumstances but the panel's findings are not contradictory on the face of it.

Mitigation is available under several different elements. If he had admitted the charge he would have been entitled to have the ban reduced by a further week, like Bastereaud, but the report makes it clear this wasn't available, hence a 4 week ban rather than 3.

It's a basic rule of natural justice that an accused is able to say to his accusers that they prove it and should not be subject to additional sanction for exercising that right.

It's also possible that Solomona denied using homophobic language but admitted using a few choice words in the heat of the moment. He may have argued that this wasn't bringing the game into disrepute because it's something that often happens and isn't usually punished.

The panel may have decided that there wasn't enough evidence to say homophobic language was used but the admitted language crossed a line.

We will have to wait for the written judgment, which is usually released after everyone has had the chance to check it is an accurate record.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 08:24
Quote:
Eastrrr Bunny
If he didn't accept the charge then the length should have been increased.

As I said to Old, natural justice doesn't allow for this. Mitigation is allowed for prompt admission of guilt but being presumed innocent until proven guilty means everyone has the right to put their accuser(s) to proof.

If you start heaping on additional penalties for not pleading guilty you greatly increase the risk of people who might be innocent agreeing that they they are not, just to avoid the much harsher consequences of exercising their basic rights and being stitched up.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 09:54
I don't understand.

If they couldn't prove homophobic language, does this mean that no foul language is allowed? As such, is it tolerated unless a complaint is made? If so, when a player gets cleared out of a ruck it's ok for him to call his opponent an "f-ing something-or-other", unless that player takes offence and tells the referee. Thus, if the referee is informed, action then needs to be taken.

If this is correct then does this open the floodgates to telltales, or will rugby police itself?

Or, have I completely misunderstood?

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 12:31
Fiver,

I don't think the RFU wanted to press the H button, but appear to have suggested language was used, and therefore brought it under a broad brush category for the purposes of making a charge. Can't remember how long Marler got for suggesting his Welsh opposite number was of no fixed abode a few years back, but everyone heard that on ref mike.

Jamie may not have helped himself in terms of telling Sir, but surely felt justified in doing so, rather than being a bit precious about things and shopping Denny to Sir.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 15:48
Fiver, this may help. From [www.gov.uk]


Types of discrimination ('protected characteristics')

It is against the law to discriminate against anyone because of:

age
being or becoming a transsexual person
being married or in a civil partnership
being pregnant or on maternity leave
disability
race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
sex
sexual orientation
These are called ‘protected characteristics’.
You’re protected from discrimination:

at work
in education
as a consumer
when using public services
when buying or renting property
as a member or guest of a private club or association
You’re legally protected from discrimination by the Equality Act 2010.

 
centrethere
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
centrethere (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 15:55
RFU press release is out not the judgement report, so as bb says could be more

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 16:35
I think a few have missed my point, sorry Ted, you missed it in a big way.

I perfectly understand the law. However, my point is that no homophobic language was proven. As such, what is the crime? Words are exchanged in every game, especially when the forwards do their aggressive cuddling routine where they know they aren't allowed to throw a punch. I'm pretty sure they don't discuss the weather.

What I'm asking is whether there are laws in the game where naughty language isn't allowed, but in reality a blind eye is turned unless directed at the referee? As such, if a blind eye is normally turned has this become an issue because a player made a complaint to the referee, which in turn was heard on the ref mic, and there is something written into the laws so action had to be taken?

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 16:59
The comments were deemed offensive and not in the interests of the sport in the press release. Shilly clearly believed worthy of bringing to Sirs attention due to the content and frequency of said comments.

Now, some more gnarly pro’s at Warriors and at opposing clubs in the future may more subtly tell Shilly to STFU in future and get focused on his game or may allow a stray hand, knee or boot do the talking in future as part of his rugby development due to this issue, as it is likely that much worse has and will be said on a pitch in future and players will just crack on with the game.

That is not to suggest that what actually was said wasn’t phobic or personal at Shilly, but the RFU have kind of suggested his molehill has possibly become mountainous in stature to an extent. I guess we know how we’d be if one of ours had been in Solomana’s place having moved the accusation from nasty homophobic stuff to offensive ( as yet unknown), perceived rugby field ‘chat’.

 
Patgadd
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Patgadd (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 17:48
The BBC claims that the slur was homophobic, and the noun used was the same as that uttered by Bastareaud. If the BBC is wrong, they will presumably be pursued by the lawyers. If they're right, then so is the sentence.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 18:00
As a thought, would it make a difference calling someone an "f-ing (insert homophobic word)" if someone was gay, as opposed to saying it to someone who wasn't? Had it been said to Gareth Thomas, would it be worse than to any other player?

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 19:35
Fiver,

No, it wouldn’t make a difference in my view. Also, I don’t get the “heat of the moment mitigation personally either. From personal experience, heat of the moment tends to show people’s more innate, natural reactions rather than considered or deliberate intentions.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 22:32
It’s all a bit difficult at the margins, when you get to details and rulings, which must be based on Law.

Players are free to call each other feckin winkers all day long, but the moment you call, for example, Josh Adams “ a feckin Welsh winker “ you’re in trouble. Welshness, being a nationality, is a protected characteristic under law.

 
Patgadd
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Patgadd (IP Logged)
06 April, 2018 22:39
Quote:
TeflonTed
Welshness, being a nationality, is a protected characteristic under law.

Surely Welshness is the exception that proves the rule? (Looks in vain for an emoji showing someone stirring)

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 06:12
Quote:
Fiver
As a thought, would it make a difference calling someone an "f-ing (insert homophobic word)" if someone was gay, as opposed to saying it to someone who wasn't? Had it been said to Gareth Thomas, would it be worse than to any other player?

I agree with FlipFlop here - intent is everything. Regardless of the targets sexuality, it shows that you think being gay is something that singles one out in a negative way due to the fact it was a phrase you deem worthy of causing insult - and that has the negative connotations of how you clearly then view said thing.

The level of offence this causes the target is neither here nor there.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Fiver (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 06:56
I personally believe that it makes no difference who it's aimed at. However, in the world of such publications as the Daily Mail, I believe a much bigger deal would have been made if a homophobic slur had been made to a homosexual player.

It was interesting listening to comments pre-match on BT Sport last night. Austin Healey made the same point I'd made about what law was actually broken and the precedent it could make by allowing players to report foul and abusive language.

I know many will say a big forward will come and slap the little back who's making the allegation, or will they if a clear advantage can be gained? Big bucks in sport these days.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 09:37
I look forward to someone losing his rag with Donncha, and calling him a “feckin Irish heterosexual”.

All true (as far as we’re aware) but would he be sanctioned.


ps....Patgadd, beware men with leeks, can cause a nasty injury can a leek, depending of course on how hard it’s inserted.

 
neiljk
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
neiljk (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 09:45
Radical idea I know, but how about professional players just avoid saying offensive things to one another. Most of us manage to achieve that in our work places.

 
Patgadd
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Patgadd (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 10:12
I was once captain for a week due to there being nobody else stupid enough to volunteer. I immediately dropped a useless old player called Bob who turned up every week hoping for a game. The very next week the ref didn't turn up and so Bob officiated (those who have played coarse rugby will nod and remember similar situations).

The b*stard sent me off for swearing.

 
neiljk
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
neiljk (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 11:05
Hahaha, revenge is a dish best served cold. I trust you apologised to “sir” later?

 
dick g
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
dick g (IP Logged)
07 April, 2018 11:23
From concerned Falconista. Where was the evidence in this case? Did anybody else hear the alleged insult? If Salmonella did make it, the punishment is richly deserved. But the normal rules of justice must apply and the accused found guilty on the basis of evidence.

 
Patgadd
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Patgadd (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:06
The full report is now out. I don't seem to be able to do the link, but the important bit is in 24 (d):

"The video footage was entirely supportive of Mr Shillcock’s account and,
although the words used cannot be heard, on close analysis the words Mr
Shillcock alleges were used can be made out
."

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:34
The Lip reading consultant earned their corn then.

The judgement is plain wierd.

Terminology was that used by Basteraud towards Shillcock.

Solomana suggests he only called Jamie a f...wit and that this term is commonplace in New Zealand.

Heat of the moment reaction was due to Jamie pulling Denny out of the tackle by his collar.

Sale appeared to not get their representations to RFU panel on time due to Dimes thinking A N Other had submitted it and A N Other thinking Dimes had dealt with it.

It had to be handled by RFU as complaint made to Sir which was heard, despite Jamie and Denny "shaking hands" after the game. Denny believed that Jamie was apologising for pulling him by the collar and not letting bygones be bygones. Denny was shocked about the allegation when he was informed.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:35
Full judgement here....unexpurgated version!!


[www.englandrugby.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2018 13:36 by TeflonTed.

 
Abmatt
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Abmatt (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 18:51
The way I understand that, the panel believed shilcock more than Denny



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2018 18:52 by Abmatt.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 19:36
Yep, the word “inconsistent “ re evidence is a somewhat parliamentary term.

In the real world we’d probably conclude they thought someone was lying.

 
jimcondie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Earlsbris (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 22:40
In short there is no hard evidence. The burden of proof is the ‘civil’ burden which is ‘on the balance of probabilities’ - essentially the panel need to think that he ‘probably’ used that language. An inconclusive video, and believing Shilcock more than Solomona, combined with the immediate report etc... allowed them to make the decision.

 
just got into rugby
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Big Bird Warrior (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 22:50
Maybe this was why Solomona was a bit frustrated?!

"England rugby union winger Denny Solomona could face eviction from Britain after his split from Celebrity Big Brother star Jess Impiazzi.
Solomona, who was born in Auckland, New Zealand, is at the centre of an immigration probe after glamour model Jess revealed they were no longer together.


The Sun report that the Sale Sharks star, 24, has been under investigation since January, after the Home Office were made aware of his wife's announcement.
Solomona's UK permit, known as a 'spousal visa', is conditional on his relationship with the pin-up.
It declares that the bearer must be in permanent residence with their partner."

Whoops (Sm151)(Sm150)

 
centrethere
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
centrethere (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 13:24
not appealing.

[www.salesharks.com]

also somewhat agree the RFU judgement was rather odd reading

 
PMB
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
PMB (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 20:06
Very messy, what happens next time a player makes an unsubstantiated complaint against another? No one heard the alleged words made by either player in this case, no proof either way-the RFU were judge and jury which does not bode well for the future

 
neiljk
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
neiljk (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 20:49
It’s not unsubstantiated though. It's true to say that no one apart from Shillcock heard what was said. However, tbe RFU panel decided on the basis of the evidence that it was substantiated by the evidence available. It does appear from the evidence cited tbat Solomona’s evidence had a number of inconsistencies.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 21:42
RFU disciplinary panel usually are judge and jury in these cases.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 22:01
That's a standard role for a disciplinary panel.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 07:02
It’s an interesting one

The lynch pin in the whole thing seems to be the post game meeting - where both player appear to believe they were bing apologised to....

The judgement raises a good point where they ask what, precisely, did Solomona believe he was being apologised to over?

 
FlipFlop
Re: Homephobic Slurs at Sale
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 07:30
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Sale will not appeal, but are clearly unhappy with the precedent set.

TVM,

I believe Denny thought that Jamie apologised after the game for pulling Denny out of the tackle area by the collar of his shirt, which was for Denny, the trigger for the outburst he was charged with. I think was the comment made in Sale statement that wasn't presented until the hearing, due to an admin error.


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