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dkexile
So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 15:28
Even when I suspected that brown and robshaw and brainless penalties were costing us it turns out ford was to blame for us losing.

Thankfully he's been dropped for cipriani so victory is assured in the third test.

 
usa warrior
Re: So it was all fords fault
usa warrior (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 19:23
What’s most disappointing is that so few young/ new guys got to play.

Woodward, Singleton, Robson, Losowski didn’t get a look in.

 
Underdog
Re: So it was all fords fault
Underdog (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 20:59
Agreed. In terms of selection I'm glad that Shields was slotted in and George and Slade got more of a run, but Robson and Lozowski will feel rightly frustrated.

 
Warriordad
Re: So it was all fords fault
Warriordad (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 21:23
I’m not sure we can question Cipriani’s selection. He has been the in form ten in the premiership and deserves his chance. Ford has been sub standard for a number of years, not what he was when he bust in to the scene.

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 21:49
I don't think it's picking cipriani that's really the thing to be questioned, it's more of all the things wrong with England this season is ford really the biggest problem?

Certain players have been dreadful all season and some players look terrible in the position they're being asked to play, yet they seem undroppable.
Ford has been dropped before being blamed for England's play and Farrell was so much worse that Jones turned to ford again, all the time not changing other potential problems.

It's a bit déjà vu.

 
usa warrior
Re: So it was all fords fault
usa warrior (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 22:24
EJ is so focused on not losing this game that he’s lost the bigger picture of the World Cup.

SA have been far more clever about using this series to blood players and, as it turns out, build momentum.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: So it was all fords fault
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 22:30
Anybody want bets on Eddie blaming it on lack of leadership and using Naughty Dylan yet again when he’s fit to play?

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 06:36
Quote:
TeflonTed
Anybody want bets on Eddie blaming it on lack of leadership and using Naughty Dylan yet again when he’s fit to play?

That sounds about right for Eddie, I certainly wouldn't bet against it, what a depressing thought.

 
usa warrior
Re: So it was all fords fault
usa warrior (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 06:54
To play devil's advocate... England were winning with Dylan at the helm. I'm not saying he's the future, but there is a distinct lack of leadership on the pitch at the moment.

Who would you have as an alternative?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: So it was all fords fault
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 08:19
Good question Dave, he could always give it to Brad Shields.

Ooh, that started off as a slightly sarcastic thought.......but then the idea developed....Hurricanes’ skipper....mature, level head.....no baggage....speaks fluent Kiwi....

Fush end Chups iny-one?

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 09:14
At hooker I'd persevere with George and LCD and captain I'd go for launchbury.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: So it was all fords fault
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 17:02
The reason England are struggling, apparently, is because they are "going through a renewal period" and "developing the young players".

That must be why the likes of Dan Robson, Alex Lozowski and Jason Woodward have played so much rugby on this tour. (Sm56)



Whatever you do, do it safely!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/06/2018 19:33 by Brummagem Bertie.

 
HonkyTonk
Re: So it was all fords fault
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 17:26
Quote:
dkexile
Even when I suspected that brown and robshaw and brainless penalties were costing us it turns out ford was to blame for us losing.
Thankfully he's been dropped for cipriani so victory is assured in the third test.

Robshaw didnt actually play in the second test, and Brown was easily one of englands better players!!

 
Simba
Re: So it was all fords fault
Simba (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 17:58
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Quote:
dkexile
Even when I suspected that brown and robshaw and brainless penalties were costing us it turns out ford was to blame for us losing.
Thankfully he's been dropped for cipriani so victory is assured in the third test.

Robshaw didnt actually play in the second test, and Brown was easily one of englands better players!!

Well, give a monkey a keyboard and eventually it will type a word.

 
Warriordad
Re: So it was all fords fault
Warriordad (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 18:29
In what context are you referring to leadership? Decisions? General play? As if you are referring to game management then maybe it is the 9/10 combination that has been causing issues. Outside of that maybe just a lack of punch up front and a back row that never seems balanced. All fixable but frustrating none the less.

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 19:26
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Quote:
dkexile
Even when I suspected that brown and robshaw and brainless penalties were costing us it turns out ford was to blame for us losing.
Thankfully he's been dropped for cipriani so victory is assured in the third test.

Robshaw didnt actually play in the second test, and Brown was easily one of englands better players!!

We've lost two tests actually and I didn't actually differentiate what I thought had cost us each test I actually lumped reasons together.

However if you think brown has been one of our best players over this series, I suspect that you're related to him.

Or you're Eddie Jones and genuinely think ford is to blame.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: So it was all fords fault
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
22 June, 2018 19:31
Quote:
HonkyTonk
... and Brown was easily one of englands [sic] better players!!

Is that what you call 'damning with faint praise'? (Sm100)



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
Whispering_Death
Re: So it was all fords fault
Whispering_Death (IP Logged)
23 June, 2018 09:16
When is the last time England dominated the scrum. Or the breakdown. Or the gain line. What creativity do we offer in midfield. How many top teams miss 25+ tackles a game, with a number of these regularly going through your 12. I remember during our winning run discussing with mates saying we are not as good as these results suggest.

Cipriani deserves a start though today but I would have started Robson with him and Daly at 13, Woodward 15.

 
A38
Re: So it was all fords fault
A38 (IP Logged)
23 June, 2018 10:20
I don't think that I would pick out any individual(s) to explain the current demise. Collectively, the squad in SA is not good enough to deal with a team playing at home, a team needing to put its recent record behind it.

A number of the England squad are past their best but it is a struggle to name obvious replacements who are fit and who are of the right standard.

Perhaps it's a cyclical thing. The under 20s have shown that there is quality coming through and we may have to wait for that collective talent to mature before the cycle turns in England's favour.

There may also come a time - I don't believe that we are near that yet - when a question may need asking: is the influx of overseas (non EQP) players into the Premiership harming the national team?

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
23 June, 2018 12:45
I think we've made the last 8 under 20s finals, I don't think it's a lack of talent coming through, it's player burn out and lack of coaching hurting us imho

 
NW2
Re: So it was all fords fault
NW2 (IP Logged)
23 June, 2018 16:11
In my simple mind, a team can't give away the number of penalties that England do, and expect to win a game.
As for Dan Robson, he must be bemused as to why he would be selected to tour, but then not get a look in. Unless he simply hasn't shown his Premiership form in the England training camp.
I have no idea, I just hope today's performance is a step up from the previous two.

 
Malvern Man
Re: So it was all fords fault
Malvern Man (IP Logged)
23 June, 2018 22:30
Anybody noticed that England won today?

 
HonkyTonk
Re: So it was all fords fault
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 00:04
With Brown and Robshaw both playing well!!! (Sm159)

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 07:20
It was good to win and brown and robshaw did have their best games of the tour, but despite the number he was wearing, brown appeared to play fullback, playing him on the wing was the main issue.

I really think the rain helped us, it slowed the game down, which helped robshaw and the SA flyhalf was dreadful which made our defence seem much better.

I thought marler was an improvement on vunipola and the forwards as a whole had their best game, Wilson looked good when he came on, shame he didn't get a start.

Cipriani played pretty well, not convinced the backs suddenly became any more threatening due to replacing ford though, the midfield balance still looks wrong to me, the SA changes seem to play a greater part in changing the balance.

Not convinced we've learned much from this tour and it feels like a missed opportunity, hopefully we'll be better in the autumn but that might just be due to players being fresher/ back from injury.

Roll on next season.

 
HonkyTonk
Re: So it was all fords fault
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 08:26
I'll be honest, I would not have taken Brown or Robshaw. Like a few others on tour they would benefit from a good long rest.

Being a quin I am a big fan of both and I do feel they get harsh treatment from other fans, sometimes see them as easy targets ignoring the other problems, whereas someone like Ben Young's appears to slide under the radar despite not really playing the well for England consistently (odd decent game). Slade anonymous all tour.

Robshaw is Mr reliable, never lets you down but, in saying that he is not looking his old self. Said on our forum, he hasn't become a bad player over night. What he does seem to be is knackered. I know he wasn't a Lion but he has played pretty much non stop for the last xx amount of years.

Brown has been mucked around by Jones. There have been calls for him to be dropped but who has really put their hand up to replace him, Watson and Daly were not really a roaring success (although I accept neither has been given a decent run there). My worry is if Brown gets injured before the world cup, who takes his place???? I would have liked to see Woodward play the SA series and leave Brown at home.

The two quins I do think are lucky to keep their place are Marler and Sinckler. Both had good games yesterday but in general, lately the have been below par and need to up their games.

Anyway, a wins a win. I still think England are in decent shape and nit the basketcase some are thinking. We just need to make sure we are ready come the world cup and jones picks the right players, in the right position

 
Whispering_Death
Re: So it was all fords fault
Whispering_Death (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 08:54
I thought the scrum looked better when Hepburn (I think it was) came on to replace Sinclair. Marler is probably a better scrummager than Mako but you hardly notice him in the loose. He’s also a loose cannon. Mako on the other hand is absolutely everywhere. The best sides, of which SA are not one at the moment, will murder Brown on the wing. He’s far too slow. With everyone fit I don’t think Robshaw starts, but I agree he never really lets you down.

 
dkexile
Re: So it was all fords fault
dkexile (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 09:26
Williams came on to replace snickler.

I don't think brown is good enough anymore, I think his game has dipped this season, however I don't think anyone else has done enough to replace him at fullback it's on the wing when he becomes a liability.
I agree that Jones has wasted opportunities to find us fullback cover.

In terms of heart and head robshaw is brilliant but his body was not up to the pace of the game at altitude, he's another who seems to have declined this season, once again Jones wasted a opportunity to give someone else a chance.
We know what robshaw brings if he's on top form, backrow is also about balance, with Haskell and vunipola on form they combined well, this year our balance has been terrible.

I've lost faith in Jones tbh but maybe that's because I have unrealistic expectations for England.

 
Offa
Re: So it was all fords fault
Offa (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 11:39
I agree about Robshaw. He is a very solid and reliable player who does just need a rest.

As for Brown: A good fullback? Yes. A good winger? No.
That being said the reverse is true of Watson and Daly (the latter probably at his destructive best at 13).

As for who else is there at 15? Goode is the best English 15 by a country mile.

 
Underdog
Re: So it was all fords fault
Underdog (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 16:17
It's difficult as some players are up to it in different conditions. If the humidity and weather slows the game down in Japan at the world cup, Robshaw, Marler and Brown will be great players to have in the side.

If it's played at breakneck speed like it was in 2015, and it certainly looks like more teams are trying to play that way, all three will struggle. Shields, Hepburn and Daly/Watson would all be better bets then, but none of them have a lot of game time in those positions.

It's very easy for me to say it when there's no pressure on me, but Eddie needs to drop Robshaw and Brown for the autumn and 6N. We need to know that we can play at speed too and neither of them can do it.

 
John Tee
Re: So it was all fords fault
John Tee (IP Logged)
24 June, 2018 18:07
[quote HonkyTonk]I'll be honest, I would not have taken Brown or Robshaw. Like a few others on tour they would benefit from a good long rest.

Being a quin I am a big fan of both and I do feel they get harsh treatment from other fans, sometimes see them as easy targets ignoring the other problems, whereas someone like Ben Young's appears to slide under the radar despite not really playing the well for England consistently (odd decent game). Slade anonymous all tour.

Robshaw is Mr reliable, never lets you down but, in saying that he is not looking his old self. Said on our forum, he hasn't become a bad player over night. What he does seem to be is knackered. I know he wasn't a Lion but he has played pretty much non stop for the last xx amount of years.

Brown has been mucked around by Jones. There have been calls for him to be dropped but who has really put their hand up to replace him, Watson and Daly were not really a roaring success (although I accept neither has been given a decent run there). My worry is if Brown gets injured before the world cup, who takes his place???? I would have liked to see Woodward play the SA series and leave Brown at home.

The two quins I do think are lucky to keep their place are Marler and Sinckler. Both had good games yesterday but in general, lately the have been below par and need to up their games.

Anyway, a wins a win. I still think England are in decent shape and nit the basketcase some are thinking. We just need to make sure we are ready come the world cup and jones picks the right players, in the right position[/qote
e]
Not a lot I'd argue against here, but Jones hasn't been on picking the right players as he has stuck by some when others have had a better claim.
Ford, Youngs, Hartley, Robshaw and Brown might be amongst them.
Having said that, Young was good yesterday .... In the sense that he didn't have to make anything happen, he just put the ball in areas where the opposition made mistakes...albeit from conditions rather than great box kicks.

It was telling that the best pass to Cips was not from Youngs...it was young Curry.

Hartleys stick has risen because George hasn't been great and LCD isn't trusted as a starter with his throws.
Robshaw was good yesterday but the game pace was more his speed.
Brown....you know what you'll get and he is still the man in position at full back.
Daly may or may not get there at FB but he got priceless experience and will be the better for it. The trouble is, he isn't going to play there for his club in front of WLR

The weather was a convenient leveller yesterday and Cips was the junior partner...Although the kick at the end sealed the game.


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